Marvel's TOAA isn't an omnipotent being. Retcon or not?

I guess they should change it's name to The One Above Most.

Nah it is still omnipotent within it's own universe (hence the "well functioning system" statement") it's just that it's been messed up enough by external factors that even it can't be all knowing at this point.

Granted, it seems to imply that there is something above TOAA (the writer? Just some BS? Who knows) but that's just assumption at this point.

Well the story isn't finished yet, but that's what they seem to be going for.

@diarrhearegatta: That’s not how it works.

Simply one regulator is enough to throw off the cosmic balance which the likes of Warlock, Thanos and possibly Eros can do. TOAA can only operate as it’s supposed to under a balaned system.

Creation imbalance is supposedly enough to stop TOAA in its tracks, so it definitely isn’t omnipotent. Actually, theoretically speaking, any being that exist “beyond” creation would be above TOAA based on jim’s interpretation of TOAA.

His name should be changed to:

“The One Almost Above All”

@brucerogers: @diarrhearegatta: @kilgpmktra: is these just me or do you guys feels the same way that marvel is screwing thier own cosmology since secret wars ?

So marvel continues to molest its cosmic hierarchy?

He just got Beyonder'ed

Maybe "the regulators" refers to the Disney executives, and "well-functioning system this no longer is" refers to Disney buying out Marvel.

It's bad writing.

If you end up saying the omnipotent being, the most powerful ever, everything there is was made by him cannot gain control over something he made then its not a very good sign.

Might be something akin to Dr. Frankenstein and his monster OR something more relevant to Marvel: Mad Jim Jaspers and his creation The Fury.

That seems to be only Starlin's personal views as far as I'm aware and as I said in another thread, it's not the first time his skepticism over the existence of an "omnipotent" being is portrayed in a comic. Still, it's not like another writer can't come up later with a totally different interpretation of the character.

@heatforce: But Thanos seems to be gaining control of these things.

He should be able to control them if Thanos can.

What does Thanos have that allows him to control these that TOAA doesn't have?

@richubs: Jim Starlin?

@heatforce: I wish I had one too man

Ah, I finally found it.

If anyone wants a strong example that Starlin himself doesn't believe in omnipotent gods, Dreadstar#11 written by him is there to prove it:

Gallery

Lord Papal(Another Thanos created by Starlin) meets the supreme beings of his verse, above everyone else, they take multiple facets like TOAA and Papal starts to describe it's impossible to fight and betray them, how their power is infinite and all those things...Yet, in the very next scan:

Papal pretty much explains that's only how lesser beings see them, that there's no such thing as true gods or omnipotence(Only powerful aliens pretending to be those). Thanos: The Infinity Conflict seems to base itself in the same concepts, really.

Yup. From Beyonder to Nemesis to even the First Firmament, the cosmology has less and less rhyme or reason. Its a mess.

In this situation, Jim Starlin adores making Adam Warlock and Thanos "Mary Sue", even it means retconning parts of Marvel to try and legitimize it. He has done this before, so I can't say i'm surprised unfortunately.

@andromeda101: I think the problem with that is, ever since Infinity Finale, the "new" LT/Adam warlock LT has actual connections to canon events in Marvel, like the Ultimates.

Even if it isn't, TOAA is supposed to be Marvel's Capital G God. He's a unaccompanied entity that exist across all of Marvel all the time. Anything directly involving it, should be legit

@kilgpmktra: Well, as I said, that might be strictly how Starlin views TOAA and there are precedents to back up. For me, those type of characters should be handled with extreme caution because of the mess someone can make.

Maybe next comes another writer and retcons the whole thing, who knows?

No being is truly omnipotent.

They'll retcon it in a few years

@kilgpmktra: thanks for sharing your thoughts

Saitama >>>>>> TOAA

Fite me

Presence >>>>>> TOAA

@batmanplusjay: Bait.

Who ultimately cares. Starlin is the only guy who uses toaa in the first place so not like it really changes anything.

Is this canon?

So let me get this straight.

The author doesn't believe in God, so he takes a well established omnipotent character and makes them lesser.

....

@drpepperman: thats pretty much what neil gaiman and mike carey did to presence

@etriel: so presence isn't omnipotent either ?

I CALLED IT.

Many people were was laughing off my views but I CALLED IT. When I defamed Marvel's credibility on what they call an Omnipotent character when I said Classic Beyonder was above TOAA in power.

Marvel DOESN'T KNOW WHAT OMNIPOTENT MEANS, they throw that shit around. They called LT, Beyonder, Cosmos and Kubik and the Infinity Gauntlet as "Omnipotent" nobody believed that, but for some reason you bozos believed in giving TOAA the benefit of the doubt.

Omg That means hulk can beat him now.

Prepare for TOBA to be a new omnipotent, and then IMMORTAL HULK

@sungsam: Guys like LT, Cosmos, Kubik or the gauntlet could not have been omnipotent because someone or something was always above them. "Omnipotence" was nothing but a hyperbolic description of their vast might. TOAA however, was the top dog of the Marvel multiverse and if anyone had the right to the title of literal omnipotence, it was him.

This retcon notwithstanding.

@sungsam: is this a good move made by Marvel ?

@kevd4wg: do you like these new retcon ?

@brucerogers: Being a "top dog" does not justify Omnipotence claims. Beyonder used to be top dog but he wasn't Omnipotent and he never was Omnipotent. Verification of Omnipotence varies from debater to debater, some even deeming it a fallacy as due to the paradoxes. Simply being on top depends on the recognition of the debaters.

Absence of Anti-Feats against Omnipotence as a verification of Omnipotence isn't something universally claimed or accepted as a method, and as such they are usually isolated to Marvel debaters on the vine.

@sungsam: I'm wondering how many truly omnipotent characters still are there in fiction (at least known fiction, to keep things short lol). Even VSBW is currently trying to destroy their tier 0 by merging it with High 1-A and making the omnipotent characters of tier 0 as just the top dogs of their verse.

does this means one above all isnt top dog anymore ?

Indeed it is a retcon.

TOAA represents Jack Kirby/Stan Lee in comics, he is basically them. BUt it seems he was retconned (and looks like) into more ofa Christian-esque god.

There is rarely a fiction where you can get the Author to be interviewed to explain his definition of Omnipotence. Omnipotence is subject to motivated interpretations and redefinitions which lead to messes like the shit at VSBattles. And people like us. In my opinion, the definition of Omnipotent by an author on clarity is more important than our interpretation of his opinion.

You are literally capable (anyone is really) of creating an Omnipotent character. All you have to do is grab a pen and write a verse but nothing like Suggsverse of course.

Anyway. The original motivation for denying True Omnipotence from VSBW sides was because Comic fans have a large vivid history of hyping up Omnipotent Characters like Presence and TOAA in the faces of other fiction fans like Lovecraft, Weebs, etc.

Omnipotent characters in Anime and Manga and Sci-Fi was typically rare or scarce compared to Comics. So to make non-Comic verse characters win in all, you have to undermine and DENY Omnipotence of Comic Characters.

All other rationalizations by VSBattles for their reasoning in the regard are merely secondary. But they want us to reject True Omnipotence as a concept meanwhile have us accept their totally non sense Outerverse wank in which the word "Outerverse" is never used in literally all fictions they categorize "Outerverse" as.

VSBattles is about arguing from a self convenient framework that they invented, designed by the people of that Wiki to win debates with Anime/VN characters they want to win. It's the simple. In fact, Revenger on Spacebattles, outlined that there is a complex of an alliance between Weebs, Sci-Fi fans and Lovecraft lovers against Comics who are the largest supporters of the VSBW tiering system. That's why VSBattles was always about and it's still like that. It's more like an Anti-Comic Agenda it was founded on driving Omnipotence denial. Perhaps the stuff I say is less true now, but that was the foundation.

VSBattles still believes in their Outerverse wank however,... If they fix that stuff, then I'll start taking them seriously.

@supermanthor said:

It was literally implied. LT LITERALLY wondered if there was an entity ABOVE The One Above All.

So fret not. This doesn't mean that Marvel doesn't have an Omnipotent anymore. The comic implied a being more powerful than TOAA. Marvel DOES probably still have an Omnipotent character, but it's not TOAA. Perhaps TOAA is getting a Beyonder treatment.

@sungsam: ok thanks

Sad but true.

Still unsure if this is canon or not

Yeah then it's MCU Thor or Thanos then.

Presence/Elaine still omnipotent

So basically... there’s a TOATOAA?

Think of the Marvel omniverse as a simulated reality and TOAA as the programmer that made it. Now, the framework of that system is breaking. A programmer or tech guy can only do so much to fix a broken computer.

A virus can lock a person out of a system and the virus isnt even real...its code.

Same thing here...

Jim starlin is a well known thanos lovers, he always wants to put him above anyone else.

"Better than omnipotence"

A badly made Retcon