Mace Windu Respect Thread

Respect Mace Windu:

Force Valor/Protection/Speed/Jump

Force Valor is a light-sided power enabling a Jedi to enhance one's resolve and physical traits, such as strength, durability and speed. Force Protection is the passive (and sometimes active) enhancement of a Force sensitive's durability to varying superhuman degrees. Force Speed is the passive (and sometimes active) enhancement of a Force sensitive's speed to varying superhuman degrees. Force Jump or Leap allows a Force user to traverse superhuman distances (vertical or horizontal) via jumping or leaping.

Several instances of Mace generating multiple large afterglows with his blade:

Mace forms a web of lightning out of his blade:

Mace paced through it all with relentless calm, his only expression a slight frown of concentration, his blades weaving an impenetrable web of lightning.

Mace generates afterimages of his arms:

"This is called Vaapad, Kar." A fierce light burned in Mace's eyes. "How many arms do you see?"

Source: Shatterpoint

Mace moves his hand faster than the eye can follow:

Faster than the eye could follow, his hand flashed out, his thumb hooking the Korun's cheek while his fingers dug in behind the hinge of the man's jaw.

Source: Shatterpoint

Mace's speed is greater than Kar Vastor's, as it is invisible. He strikes Vastor half a dozen times before Vastor can blink:

And even hurt, lurching drunkenly, Vaster still could whip his arms in blindingly fast raking slaps at Mace's head and wounded neck. But where Vastor's speed was blinding, Mace's was invisible. Not one of those slaps connected. Before Vastor could even focus his eyes, Mace had hit him six times: two thundering hooks to his short ribs, a knee slamming hard into the same thigh he'd hit before, an elbow snapping up to the point of his chin, and two devastating palm strikes to either hinge of his jaw.

Source: Shatterpoint

Mace moves so quickly he is nothing more than a blurring silhouette, and he dodges a blaster bolt with such speed that it appears to phase through him. He then disappears and immediately reappears behind his enemy:

Mace smashing multiple Super Battle Droids (though this may have been a result of Shatterpoint):

Mace runs in a blur:

Mace runs in a blur again, dodging blaster fire:

Mace runs up a huge surge of earth:

Several impressive displays of Jump:

Telekinesis

Telekinesis is a basic, neutral Force power enabling Force-sensitives to manipulate their surroundings (often objects or individuals) via the Force.

Mace telekinetically manipulates several small trees, piling them up:

It took only minutes to clear a landing zone. I had used the Force to pile some of the smaller trees, intending to kindle their damp wood with my blade to make a huge smoking bonfire, but I didn't have to; before we had even cleared the zone, three flights of gunships swarmed overhead.

Source: Shatterpoint

Mace collapses an unstable cliff:

The something he did was to reach deep through the Force until he could feel a structure of broken rock ten meters below him and five meters in from the face. He thought, Why wait? and shoved.

The dirt cliff shook, buckled, and collapsed

Source: Shatterpoint

He telekinetically moves a steamcrawler:

Mace bared his teeth to the night. With the Force, he seized the steamcrawler and yanked it back into place - but a squeal from above grabbed his attention.

Source: Shatterpoint

Mace uses the Force to levitate himself and Nick Rostu down a several hundred meter vertical distance:

The gunships rate of fall was considerably slower; it only looked like it was going in out of control. Which was why, when Mace had towed Nick to within a few hundred meters above the gunship, a considerable exertion of his Force-strength was required to slow them enough to avoid a catastrophic splatter.Nick had lifted his eyes only once, as they plummeted toward the roof armor of the gunship: just long enough to recall vividly what Mace had said about leaving a red smear on a windscreen. His head was tucked back securely between his knees when Mace brought them to a thumpingly unceremonious landing that sent them bruised and bouncing along the top of the spinning ship.

Source: Shatterpoint

Mace drifts downward gently using the Force:

Balanced on the balls of their feet, Mace and Kit hooked their lightsabers to their belts and drifted back down into the vestibule, as gently as the Force allowed.

Source: Labyrinth of Evil

Mace defeats Sora Bulq via telekinesis:

Mace defeats Quinlan Vos via telekinesis:

Mace throws a droid nearly three kilometers:

Mace hurls a speeder into Grievous, causing an explosion:

Mace telekinetically moves an AT-TE:

Mace's casual Force Push obliterates a number of droids:

Mace casually calls down a gate:

Mace displays Crush on Grievous:

Immovability

Immovability is an ability that enables a Force-user to root himself in place and make himself immovable.

Mace uses the Force to keep himself from being blown from a mag-lev train's roof whilst dueling with Grievous, but unlike Grievous, he is still able to move and fight agilely:

Just as the Force was keeping Mace from being blown from the mag-lev's roof, magnetism of some sort was keeping the general fastened in place. For the cyborg, though, the coherence hindered as much as it helped, whereas Mace never remained in one place for very long.

Source: Labyrinth of Evil

Beast Language

Beast Language is a Force power enabling one to communicate with beasts:

Mace communicates with several bats, telling them that he will not harm them:

Force Sense/Shatterpoint

Force Sense is a basic power allowing Force sensitives to sense their surroundings via a sixth sense of sorts. A broader, passive iteration of that power also affords a Jedi passive precognition and clairvoyance. Shatterpoint is the ability to perceive fault lines with the Force.

Mace explains his talent and how he can detect the fault lines of a Corusca gem just by looking at it. He also recalls that he had sensed that Dooku had been the Shatterpoint of the war at the time of Geonosis (though not any longer), and that Shatterpoint allowed him to kill Jango Fett almost instantly:

In my dreams, the purple flare of my blade sizzles the gray hairs of Dooku's beard, and in the critical semisecond it takes Jango Fett to aim and fire, I twitch that blade and take Dooku with me into death.

And save the galaxy from civil war.

I could have done it.

I could have done it.

Because I knew. I could feel it.

In the swirl of the Force around me, I could feel the connections Dooku had forged among Jango and the Trade Federation, the Geonosians, the whole Separatist movement: connections of greed and fear, of deception and bald intimidation. I did not know what they were-I did not know how Dooku had forged them, or why-but I felt their power: the power of what I now know is a web of treason he had woven to catch the galaxy.

I could feel that without him to maintain its weave, to repair its flaws and double its thinning strands, the web would rot, would shrivel and decay until a mere breath would shred it and scatter its strings into the infinite stellar winds.

Dooku was the shatterpoint.

I knew it.

That is my gift.

Imagine a Corusca gem: a mineral whose interlocking crystalline structure makes it harder than durasteel. You can strike one with a five-kilo hammer and do no more than dent the hammer's face. Yet the same cystalline structure that gives the Corusca strength also gives it shatterpoints: spots where a precise application of carefully measured force-no more than a gentle tap-will break it into pieces. But to find these shatterpoints, to use them to shape the Corusca gem into beauty and utility, requires years of study,an intimate understanding of crystal structure, and rigorous practice to train the hand in the perfect combination of strength and precision to produce the desired cut.

Unless you have a talent like mine.

I can see shatterpoints.

The sense is not sight, but see is the closest word Basic has for it: it is a perception, a feel of how what Iook upon fits into the Force, and how the Force binds it to itself and to everything else. I was six or seven standard years old-well into my training in the Jedi Temple-before I realized that other students,full-grown Jedi Knights, even wise Masters, could sense such connections only with difficulty, and only with concentration and practice. The Force shows me strengths and weaknesses, hidden flaws and unexpected uses. It shows me vectors of stress that squeeze or stretch, torque or shear; it shows me how patterns of these vectors intersect to form the matrix of reality.

Put simply: when I look at you through the Force, I can see where you break.

I looked at Jango Fett on the sand in the Geonosian arena. A perfect combination of weapons, skills, and the will to use them: an interlocking crystal of killer. The Force hinted a shatterpoint, and I left a headless corpse on the sand. The deadliest man in the galaxy.

Now: just dead.

Situations have shatterpoints, like gems. But those of situations are fluid, ephemeral, appearing for a bareinstant, vanishing again to leave no trace of their existence. They are always a function of timing.

There is no such thing as a second chance.

If-when-I next encounter Dooku, he will be the war's shatterpoint no longer. I can't stop this war with a single death.

But on that day in the Geonosian arena, I could have.

Source: Shatterpoint

Mace perceives that Palpatine himself is a Shatterpoint:

'I suppose I do." Mace vividly recalled what the Force had shown him while he watched Palpatine sworn in as Supreme Chancellor, ten years before: Palpatine was himself a shatterpoint on which the future of the Republic-perhaps even the whole galaxy-depended.

Source: Shatterpoint

Mace senses the Shatterpoint of the Gevarno Loop, a hyperspace route:

This is a fact: I found the shatterpoint of the Gevarno Loop.

Source: Shatterpoint

Mace clearly perceives the Shatterpoints of four steamcrawlers:

The shatterpoints of the crawlers were obvious: neither the linked treads nor the traverse gears that rotated the turrets would stand against a single swipe of a lightsaber. In less than a second apiece, he could turn these armored behemoths into nothing more than hollow metal rocks-but he didn't.

Source: Shatterpoint

Mace perceives a Shatterpoint in a gunship:

Mace reached deeper into the Force, opening himself, seeking a shatterpoint. The fluid situation in the notch pass gelled, then splintered into crystal: grassers and akks and people and gunships became nodes of stress, vectors of intersecting energy joined by flaws and fault lines.Mace's mouth set in a grim slit.He saw one bare chance.

Source: Shatterpoint

Mace breaks glass using Shatterpoint:

Mace recalls that he had sensed the lines of destiny that binds the lives of Anakin and Obi-Wan together, and later that Palpatine is a shatterpoint. He then senses that Anakin was a fulcrum with Obi-Wan and Palpatine on opposing sides, with the balance being so delicate that the slightest tip would generate chaos. Additionally, he senses the dark side in Anakin's relationships with both Kenobi and Palpatine:

And while Palpatine answered, Mace Windu reached into the Force.

To Mace's Force perception, the world crystallized around them, becoming a gem of reality shot through with flaws and fault lines of possibility. This was Mace's particular gift: to see how people and situations fit together in the Force, to find the shear planes that can cause them to break in useful ways, and to intuit what sort of strike would best make the cut. Though he could not consistently determine the significance of the structures he perceived - the darkening cloud upon the Force that had risen with the rebirth of the Sith made that harder and harder with each passing day - the presence of shatterpoints was always clear.

Mace had supported the training of Anakin Skywalker, though it ran counter to millennia of Jedi tradition, because from the structure of fault lines in the Force around him, he had been able to intuit the truth of Qui-Gon Jinn's guess: that the young slave boy from Tatooine was in fact the prophesied chosen one, born to bring balance to the Force. He had argued for the elevation of Obi-Wan Kenobi to Mastership, and to give the training of the chosen one into the hands of this new, untested Master, because his unique perception had shown him powerful lines of destiny that bound their lives together, for good or ill. On the day of Palpatine's election, he had seen that Palpatine was himself a shatterpoint of unimaginable significance, a man upon whom might depend the fate of the Republic itself.

Now he saw the three men together, and the intricate lattice of fault lines and stress fractures that bound them to each other was so staggeringly powerful that its structure was beyond calculation.

Anakin was somehow a pivot point, the fulcrum of a lever with Obi-Wan on one side, Palpatine on the other, and the galaxy in balance, but the dark cloud on the Force prevented his perception from reaching into the future for so much as a hint of where this might lead. The balance was already so delicate that he could not guess the outcome of any given shift: the slightest tip in any direction would generate chaotic oscillation. Anything could happen.

Anything at all.

And the lattice of fault lines that bound all three of them to each other stank of the dark side.

Source: Revenge of the Sith

Mace detects that Anakin himself is a Shatterpoint:

The tangled web of fault lines in the Force he had seen connecting Anakin to Obi-Wan and to Palpatine was no more; in their place was a single spider-knot that sang with enough power to crack the planet. Anakin Skywalker no longer had shatterpoints. He was a shatterpoint.

The shatterpoint.

Everything depended on him.

Everything.

Source: Revenge of the Sith

Mace senses a plot to destroy the Jedi, and that the dark side surrounds the Chancellor:

"I sense a plot to destroy the Jedi. The dark side of the Force surrounds the Chancellor."

Source: Revenge of the Sith

Combat Skill

Mace is considered to be on equal terms with Count Dooku and Yoda:

He is a better duelist than Anoon Bondara and is implied to regularly beat him in their sparring sessions:

Renowned for his skill with the lightsaber, Jedi Master Anoon Bondara is regarded by many of his peers and all of his apprentices as a role model whose combat prowess is unmatched in the Jedi Order. Bondara would disagree with this assesment. During his tenure at the Jedi Temple on Coruscant, he spars with superior lightsaber duelists such as Qui-Gon Jinn and Mace Windu. Although he humbles himself when compared to their skill, Bondara's prowess is nontheless considerable.

Source: Jedi Academy: Training Manual

Mace Windu is one of the best duelists in the Order:

Mace Windu is not only a senior member of the Jedi Council but one of the best lightsaber fighters in the Jedi Order.

Source: The Ultimate Visual Guide: Updated and Expanded

Mace is one of the best duelists in Old Republic history:

Jedi Master Mace Windu is regarded as one of the greatest lightsaber-wielders of the Old Republic.

Source: The Ultimate Visual Guide: Updated and Expanded

Mace is one of the best swordsmen ever produced by the Order:

Which would leave Mace and Agen Kolar—both among the greatest bladesbeings the Jedi Order had ever produced—here on Coruscant in case Sidious did indeed take this opportunity to make a dramatic move.

Source: Revenge of the Sith

At the time of Attack of the Clones, Mace was the second best duelist in the Order, surpassed only by Yoda:

http://web.archive.org/web/20051125042817/http://www.starwars.com/episode-ii/bts/production/news20000711b.html

"Mace Windu's fighting abilities are second only to Yoda."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5m2yIAxeBHA

(5:28 - 5:35):

"We have not seen Mace fight yet, and we know he's second only to Yoda."

Yoda considers that Mace is possibly Dooku's only equal on neutral ground:

The Count's blade was quick as a viper striking. Among the other Jedi, perhaps only Mace Windu would have been his equal on neutral ground: but here on Vjun, steeped in the dark side, his bladework was malice made visible—wickedness cut in red light.

Source: Yoda: Dark Rendezvous

Shaak claims Mace is one of the best swordsmen in the Order:

"Anakin, why? The Masters are the best of the Order. What can you possibly do?"

Source: Revenge of the Sith

Obi-Wan claims that Mace is one of the best swordsmen ever produced by the Order, and that along with Agen, Kit and Saesee, he would beat Obi-Wan and Yoda together :

Now Obi-Wan did face him. "Palpatine faced Mace and Agen and Kit and Saesee - four of the greatest swordsmen our Order has ever produced. By himself. Even both of us together wouldn't have a chance."

Source: Revenge of the Sith

Mace has won countless battles, and his skills with a lightsaber is said to be unparalleled:

This is the moment that defines Mace Windu.

Not his countless victories in battles, nor the numberless battles his diplomacy has avoided. Not his penetrating intellect, or his talents with the Force, or his unmatched skills with the lightsaber.

Source: Revenge of the Sith

Mace spars evenly with Saesee Tiin, one of the most skilful duelists in the Order:

Gallery

Mace fights Sora Bulq to a draw and wins using the Force:

Gallery

Mace defeats Asajj Ventress:

Gallery

Mace fights defensively only and holds back, and still deflects every blow Quinlan Vos sends at him without much effort:

Gallery

In a spar with Quinlan Vos, Mace displays minimal effort, as evinced by moves such as giving up his back to his opponent and still casually blocking lightsaber strikes. Despite this, he is able to point out Vos's combative flaws and land blows on Vos as well:

Gallery

Mace attacks Dooku and they briefly exchange blades. During their short contest, neither of them appear to gain any edge, and Dooku leaves the fight by using his Magnaguards to knock Mace off a cliff:

Gallery

Mace fights evenly with General Grievous aboard a mag-lev train:

Kit's bulging black eyes indicated Palpatine. "They want to take him alive."

The words had scarcely left his mouth when something hit the train with sufficient force to whip everyone from one side of the car to the other, then back again. The Red Guards were just regaining their balance when the roof began to resound with the cadence of heavy, clanging footfalls, advancing from the rear of the train.

"Grievous," Mace grumbled. Kit glanced at him. "Here we go again."

Hurrying into the vestibule between the two lead cars, they launched themselves to the roof. Three cars distant marched General Grievous and two of his elite droids, their capes snapping behind them in the wind, pulse-tipped batons angled across their barrel chests. Farther back, clamped by animal-like claws to the roof of the train, was the gunboat from which the frightful trio had been released.

Without pausing, Grievous drew two lightsabers from inside his billowing cloak. By the time they were ignited, Mace was already on and all over the cyborg, batting away at the two blades, swinging low at Grievous's artificial legs, thrusting at his skeletal face. The lightsabers thrummed and hissed, meeting one another in bursts of dazzling light. In a corner of Mace's mind he wondered to which Jedi Grievous's blades had belonged.

Just as the Force was keeping Mace from being blown from the mag-lev's roof, magnetism of some sort was keeping the general fastened in place.

For the cyborg, though, the coherence hindered as much as it helped, whereas Mace never remained in one place for very long. Again and again the three blades joined, in snarling attacks and parries.

As Mace already knew from Ki-Adi-Mundi and Shaak Ti, Grievous was well trained in the Jedi arts. Mace could recognize the hand of Dooku in the general's training and technique. His strikes were as forceful as any Mace had ever had to counter, and his speed was astonishing. But he didn't know Vaapad—the technique of dark flirtation in which Mace excelled. To the rear of the car, where Grievous's pair of MagnaGuards had made the mistake of pitting themselves against Kit Fisto, the Nautolan's blade was a cyclone of blazing blue light. Resistant to the energy outpourings of a lightsaber, the phrik alloy staffs were potent weapons, but like any weapon they needed to find their target, and Kit simply wasn't allowing that.

In moves a Twi'lek dancer might envy, he spun around the guards, claiming a limb from both with each rotation: left legs, right arms, right legs...

The speed of the train saw to the rest, ultimately whisking the droids into the canyon like insects blown from the windscreen of a speeder bike.

The loss of his confederates was noted by whatever computers were slaved to Grievous's organic brain, but the loss neither distracted nor slowed him. His sole setting was attack. Successful at analyzing Mace's lightsaber style, those same computers suggested that Grievous alter his stance and posture, along with the angle of his parries, ripostes, and thrusts.

The result wasn't Vaapad, but it was close enough, and Mace wasn't interested in prolonging the contest any longer than necessary. Crouching low, he angled the blade downward and slashed, guiding it through the roof of the car, perpendicular to Grievous's stalwart advance. Mace saw by the surprised look in the cyborg's reptilian eyes that, for all his strength, dexterity, and resolve, the living part of him wasn't always in perfect sync with his alloy servos.

Clearly, Grievous—onetime courageous commander of sentient troops—realized what Mace had done and wanted to sidestep, where General Grievous—current commander of droids and other war machines—wanted nothing more than to impale Mace with lunging thrusts of the paired blades.Slipping into the gap made by Mace's saber, Grievous's left talon lost magnetic purchase on the roof, and the general faltered.

Mace came out of his crouch prepared to drive his sword into Grievous's guts, but some last-instant firing of the general's cyber synapses compelled the cyborg's torso through a swift half twist that would have sent Mace's head hurtling into the canyon had the maneuver prevailed.

Instead Mace leapt backward, out of the range of the slicing blades, and Force-pushed outward, just at the instant of Grievous's single misstep.

Off the side of the car the general went, twisting and turning as he fell, Mace trying to track the general's contorted plunge, but unsuccessfully. Had he fallen into the canyon? Had he managed to dig his duranium claws into the side of the car or grab hold of the mag-lev rail itself?

Mace couldn't take the time to puzzle it out. One hundred meters away, the gunboat retracted its landing gear and rose from the roof on repulsorlift power. Reckless shots from one of the pursuing gunships obliged the Separatist craft to skew, then dive, with the gunship following close behind.Source: Labyrinth of Evil

The most badass Afro-American Jedi in the Galaxy.

Good job.

@penderor: Thanks.

@shootingnova: Do you think you could make Darth Bane or Kyle Katarn respect thread?.

@penderor: I've already made one for Bane:

http://www.comicvine.com/profile/shootingnova/blog/darth-bane-respect-thread/97390/

For Kyle Katarn, JXM is planning to make one so I am leaving it to him. If he discontinues it then I will take it up. The same applies to Tahiri Veila and Darth Caedus, in case you'll ask for them as well.

@shootingnova: Darth Caedus could be interesting. What about Darth Vitiate? That could be interesting.

@shootingnova: Nice thread. Though I have to ask: wouldn't the "his lightsaber skills are unparalleled" bit be inaccurate in view of Palpatine stalemated him when amped and how Yoda is factually better than him?

@penderor Ah, yes, Vitiate. A respect thread for him would be great, but more for knowledge about his neutral feats than everything else, especially considering that the ones I've seen are practically fanboyistic attempts to elevate him beyond what he deserves.

@zapan87: I never said he deserves. But his power with all that buffs could be interesting to see in thread.

@penderor I wasn't talking about you (people who have debated in Vitiate battle threads should know who I'm talking about). With preparation I'd say Vitiate would be number 3 in a top 10 Sith Lord list, but to me NIhilus is a more dangerous opponent in a fight.

Closing the ot, nice respect thread.

@zapan87: Nihilus was mostly dangerous only because of his Life/Force Drain. Other than that, his abilities are unknown. We just know he is Makashi user.

@penderor: I hate Vitiate but I might make a thread for him eventually.

Thanks, and yes, it's hyperbole.

Interesting. This is probably better discussed on my top ten Sith blog, but who would you rank above Vitiate, then? Assuming, of course, that you have Palpatine at the pinnacle.

And how would you rank him without preparation?

@shootingnova:

1. Very thorough job. Well done.

It seemed to me before that you consistently low-balled Mace Windu at times as a way to counter fan-boyism. With extreme prejudice, lol. This appears very objective and crediting, though.

2. Ok, I now remember an old argument I forgot about.

Mace attacks Dooku and they briefly exchange blades. During their short contest, neither of them appear to gain any edge, and Dooku leaves the fight by using his Magnaguards to knock Mace off a cliff:

Gallery

a. Still can't agree with that. Dooku shows clear signs of faltering here - the subtext is there. Not to mention the last-ditch move (e.g. Yoda AOTC), even though he plays it off in graceful fashion. Has he or has he not faced Mace in a while? I don't think Dooku was comfortable with his odds after gauging his form.

b. The length of the fight on panel doesn't necessarily mean there were exactly that many blows exchanged.

c. Also, I notice you are counting very specific force feats for Mace. When Mace touches down in this fight he apparently causes a Force shock-wave that launch the droids back (you can see in next panel one of the droids getting back up) Just wanted to point that out.

Cheers.

@bamapecan:

1. Thanks.

As I've always said, I've tried to be objective in all arguments. And no, I don't lowball Mace. I might counter extreme highballing by bringing up lowballing instances, at times, but I don't bring them up when discussing character strengths or anything of the sorts.

2. a. That was Dooku taunting him. It might just be different perceptions of the text, but based on both illustrations of the fight, accolades, and feats, Mace is only Dooku's equal. And for that matter, if you're equally skilled as somebody, you can beat them once in a while and vice versa, which presumably is the case with Mace and Dooku (Dooku has beaten Mace before).

b. If you're proposing that the fight is longer, then there's not much to be said. That doesn't really make a difference.

c. I've always considered most of the Dantooine TK feats to be inconsistent, but I might go back and see if there are any that aren't. That said, I only wish to count notable showings. Some of the more commonplace showings I would ignore, except for speed.

@shootingnova Of course Palpatine is the best, I don't doubt that. I could rank Nihilus above the Sith Emperor, depending on wether he actually performed his Ravager feat under his own power or not, but I doubt it, and he is still a top tier Sith Lord without it. Regardless, Nihilus is more dangerous than Vitiate in a fight, from what I've seen.

I have also heard that Caedus is above him, but I'm not knowledgeable enough on him to give a reasoned opinion. I just know that Caedus was stated to be above Vader by sources, and that he has immense potential, but nothing more.

It's still very hard for people to believe Mace didn't overwhelm Dooku and force his retreat in that comic. That seems to be the consensus. You have plenty of evidence to support they wereequals at one time, but do you have any evidence to suggest they are equal during this time? Here, Count Dooku is 83, Mace is 53. If they are both roughly equal in the Force, and maybe even skill, the determining factor here is physical prowess.

@shootingnova said:

Fair enough. In retrospect, the fight was probably indeed that long if it is proportionally "keeping pace" with the rest of the comic.

Oh I wasn't comparing the instance I pointed out to the Dantooine feats. I was just pointing out the fact that Mace causing a Force disruption (very likely inadvertently) when he lands in this comic is noteworthy if you are including every significant showing to represent how powerful he is. You could just simply include it as an aside feat in the description of this fight (rather than make it a single Force feat in your Force section).

@shootingnova said:

Thought so. In which case I'd remove that bit from the respect thread if possible, especially when it's not consistent with the respect thread saying he's second to Yoda.

@zapan87: Caedus is a contender with Luke in all categories except raw power.

1. Mace never forced his retreat. Mace interrupted his retreat, which was the original plan. Dooku disposed of him as he should have, because his disinterested in fighting to begin with and he would have been risking both life and ultimately both Palpatine's plans and efforts if he were to fight Mace.

Dooku being 83 is irrelevant. Age is irrelevant if a character has sufficient power to compensate, as with Tyranus.

Physically, the Count's age was rarely a handicap. Deft as he had become with the Force-unimaginably more subtle than the boy who had watched water-skeeters in the Jedi gardens all those years ago-he wore his eighty-three standard years better than most humans half his age. He was still in superb physical shape, senses keen, health undiminished by even the memory of a cold.

Source: Yoda: Dark Rendezvous

You don't see people arguing that Yoda or Palpatine were overly old, for good reason - because their strength in the Force could overcome in the infirmities of old age. Dooku is faster than Mace, comparably strong (Dooku is very underrated in physical strength) and actually about the same in agility. Dooku is extremely underrated in physical traits as a whole, but I'd rather not discuss that here. You can look at my respect thread for him for showings or accolades.

2. Fair enough.

3. Eh.

No, because as I said, it's obvious hyperbole. It builds up and establishes hype for him as a swordsman.

@shootingnova: Why you hate him?

@penderor: Anybody who knows anything about me should know why I hate Vitiate.

@shootingnova: There are worse Sith Lords.

@penderor: Such as?

@shootingnova: I personally dislike Caedus, Gravid, Tyranus and in its own way even the Bane.

So you clearly didn't read my whole post. I deliberately included "If they are both roughly equal in the Force, and maybe even skill" for a reason. Your Yoda/Sidious comparison fails because they are on a different, supreme level of Force power, at least from Dooku. The quote also doesn't help this argument because it isn't pertinent - It's just saying that Dooku is in superb shape for his age and, requiring he pulls from his superior connection to the Force, he can still dominate Vos/Bulq/Ventress-level characters with ease. And it says his age was rarely a handicap, that hardly means he is every bit the man he was (physically speaking) and a confrontation with Windu is pretty much the exception to this.

If both Dooku and Windu are calling on their Force reserves (which are more-or-less equal) to amplify their physical limits and compensate for age, then Mace has an edge on him simply because he is a younger buck. The only reason Dooku has similar physical traits in these other showings you've found is because he always digs considerably into the Force just to be that way, while Mace hardly touches those reserves UNTIL he faces an adversary like Dooku. It's no secret that it's in a Sith's nature to indulge in their powers and use them generously, while Jedi like Mace always exercise their restraint and hold back only UNTIL they find it necessary (such as this fight, and with Sidious).

No Force-amp Mace > No Force-amp Dooku (physically)

No Force-amp Mace ≤ Force-amp Dooku

Force amp Mace > Force-amp Dooku, only because age is the deciding factor.

Also, you still haven't given an answer for:

If the answer is anyway associated with General Grievous, I will be surprised. Because I'm pretty sure you know better.

What? Who said anything about being supreme? I was just arguing about old age being irrelevant, and nothing in the fight indicates that Dooku's old age was getting the better of him.

And no, that's not how it works. Mace is not as powerful as Tyranus in the Force, and therefore Tyranus's showings have reason to be superior. Regarding Dooku digging considerably into the Force just to be this way whilst Mace hardly touches his reserves, sources? Mace's strength is considerably below the one ton range, as we have seen his limits in Shatterpoint when he failed to move an akk dog. Is Dooku stronger? No, but he is at least comparable between kicking Ventress across rooms and knocking out Obi-Wan with one hit.

Also, suggesting Mace and other Jedi hold back whereas Sith exercise their powers fully is a pretty bold claim. Jedi simply don't have the intention to kill, and being disinterested in killing and holding back are two entirely different showings. Mace wanted to kill Grievous (Obsession, Clone Wars Chapter 21), and he would have no reason to hold back, but he still failed to defeat a slightly hindered Grievous in a lightsaber duel within the parameters of that time, and he relied on telekinetic BFR as a faster means of victory.

Show me a source stating that Mace's feats occurred with him only marginally tapping into the Force. That's reaching considerably unless you have a source to prove it, and even then, what proves Dooku digs so much greater into the Force for just similar showings? Dooku is more powerful.

The fact that their showings are parallel? What skill showings does Mace have that are so evidently superior?

Old age is only truly and completely irrelevant to beings such as Yoda and Sidious, who have a stupid, unparalleled (at least in their time) connection to the Force . Dooku's and Mace's old age is indeed irrelevant only if their opponents are not Sidious, Yoda, each other, an X-factor such as a pissed-off Chosen One, or maybe, and only maybe, General Grievous or Darth Maul.

That's the thing. You deduce that Mace can't be as powerful as Dooku simply due to the fact that Dooku apparently has better Force feats. But you don't realize that Mace's portrayals have undoubtedly been under the writer's understanding that Jedi have a Code that forbids them to be generous and flamboyant in their abilities (barring the '03 CW TV series and comics, which we could both agree as hyperbole). The proof is in the difference of when Anakin gives in to the Dark Side, his powers grow exponentially. If Mace gave into the Dark Side (hypothetically), his high-end Force powers would show up more often and in greater magnitude.

And Dooku kicking Obi-Wan in ROTS is clearly Force-assisted, c'mon. I don't remember the Ventress instance.

Mace Windu killed Jango Fett without much second thought, he was obviously going to kill Sidious, and he certainly did not express much discontent or uneasiness towards Anakin when he learned that he killed Dooku. Instead, it was practically celebrated. If they are a certain level of dangerous, a Jedi will not hesitate to kill. Especially Windu.

Wha..How is that indicative of Mace Windu holding back? If anything, that's a testament to 1. How formidable Grievous is (was) as a duelist, and 2. Mace doing whatever was necessary to put him down, aka not holding back.

Btw, that's not how that went down. There are 3 different exchanges from 3 different sources.

• In Obsession, Mace crushed Grievous with a STAP.
• In LoE, what you just described, happened.
• In Clone Wars, Mace Force-crushed his chest

Again, do I seriously have to have sources to re-establish the well-known, long-established fact that Jedi enforce self-restraint and control and look down upon recklessness and flamboyancy in their powers? Because all of the high-end Force-power feats of Dooku is a result of his showing his "true power" to be impressive or intimidating. Again, if Mace embraced the Dark Side, it's not unreasonable to propose that he would be showboating and stacking up similar feats, possibly in easier fashion.

If you are under the impression that feats from said "sources" are going to overshadow and dismiss context like the Jedi Code, then I don't know what to tell you. The common idea that feats from comics/books is be-all, end-all is a proven fallacy.

Exactly. Thank you.

One of My Fav Characters ":)

@bamapecan:

Old age is only truly and completely irrelevant to beings such as Yoda and Sidious, who have a stupid, unparalleled (at least in their time) connection to the Force . Dooku's and Mace's old age is indeed irrelevant only if their opponents are not Sidious, Yoda, each other, an X-factor such as a pissed-off Chosen One, or maybe, and only maybe, General Grievous or Darth Maul.

Hardly stupid, but to each their own. For that matter, Yoda decreased in speed and power at least slightly, but then, he was also many centuries older than Tyranus.

Tyranus's age never hindered him against Grievous. He is occasionally challenged, but that is due solely to raw skill and physical traits, not due to his old age catching up with him, and there are times when Dooku defeats Grievous handily.

Mace's age has virtually never been a factor.

That's the thing. You deduce that Mace can't be as powerful as Dooku simply due to the fact that Dooku apparently has better Force feats. But you don't realize that Mace's portrayals have undoubtedly been under the writer's understanding that Jedi have a Code that forbids them to be generous and flamboyant in their abilities (barring the '03 CW TV series and comics, which we could both agree as hyperbole). The proof is in the difference of when Anakin gives in to the Dark Side, his powers grow exponentially. If Mace gave into the Dark Side (hypothetically), his high-end Force powers would show up more often and in greater magnitude.

And Dooku kicking Obi-Wan in ROTS is clearly Force-assisted, c'mon. I don't remember the Ventress instance.

The Jedi Code never said anything about forbidding extensive usage of the Force. You can utilize the Force to any extent necessary, only that you need not be consumed by the promise of power, which ultimately leads to the dark side.

None of this proves Mace holds back, and in Shatterpoint, Mace confesses that he doesn't hold back (or at least, rarely holds back).

Also, of course Dooku kicking Obi-Wan in the RotS novel and comic was "Force-assisted". So are all of Mace's physical showings. The Ventress one was in TCW.

Mace Windu killed Jango Fett without much second thought, he was obviously going to kill Sidious, and he certainly did not express much discontent or uneasiness towards Anakin when he learned that he killed Dooku. Instead, it was practically celebrated. If they are a certain level of dangerous, a Jedi will not hesitate to kill. Especially Windu.

Mace killed Jango because he had to and it was more or less an instinctive action. He actually wasn't going to kill Palpatine until after the Lightning attacks, but I could let that pass.

Wha..How is that indicative of Mace Windu holding back? If anything, that's a testament to 1. How formidable Grievous is (was) as a duelist, and 2. Mace doing whatever was necessary to put him down, aka not holding back.

Did you even read my post before replying? My whole argument is centered on the fact that Mace was notholding back. The fact that Mace could not beat a somewhat hindered Grievous (whilst Mace was clearly not holding back) whereas Dooku has repeatedly beaten Grievous (occasionally being challenged, but also sometimes without much trouble) is a better showing for Dooku. Therefore, Dooku being equal to Mace is certainly a plausible idea. I'm already losing what you're getting at.

Btw, that's not how that went down. There are 3 different exchanges from 3 different sources.

• In Obsession, Mace crushed Grievous with a STAP.

• In LoE, what you just described, happened.

• In Clone Wars, Mace Force-crushed his chest

I know all of this because I posted it all in the OP. What does this have to do with anything?

Again, do I seriously have to have sources to re-establish the well-known, long-established fact that Jedi enforce self-restraint and control and look down upon recklessness and flamboyancy in their powers? Because all of the high-end Force-power feats of Dooku is a result of his showing his "true power" to be impressive or intimidating. Again, if Mace embraced the Dark Side, it's not unreasonable to propose that he would be showboating and stacking up similar feats, possibly in easier fashion.

Controlling oneself to prevent the lures of the dark side and avoiding recklessness =/= holding back. There is no source which states a Jedi should hold back his power, and that is not what the Jedi Code states.

If you are under the impression that feats from said "sources" are going to overshadow and dismiss context like the Jedi Code, then I don't know what to tell you. The common idea that feats from comics/books is be-all, end-all is a proven fallacy.

What does this have to do with anything?

And you keep bringing up that Dooku is showing his true power and what not, but you neglect to mention that Mace has struggle with some of his telekinetic showings, whereas most, if not all, of Dooku's showings were fairly effortless or at least accomplished easily on his part.

Exactly. Thank you.

I've mostly lost where you are headed. Would you care to remind me what your initial point was? Because if it was that Mace was forcing Dooku's hand in leaving, then that's wrong. I have no idea what lead to this part of the conversation.

I really don't see why you can't use the respect thread as it is meant to be and just appreciate the listing of showings, but have to raise all this fuss.

Hey Nova, you forgot this accolade for Windu. He's regarded, along with Yoda, to be the most powerful on the Jedi Council at the time.

Qui-Gon brought his eyes back to Mace Windu and Yoda, the ones he must convince, the ones most respected and powerful of those who sat in judgment.

The Phantom Menace

@brightsteel: Hmm... that's a very good accolade.

There's also one in Attack of the Clones, where Windu's strength is regarded as impressive, even among Jedi, if you want it?