LWP's Random Thoughts: Is Modernist Literature the best way to appeal superhero comic books to the general audience?

Taking up a literature and advertising management double degree course in university, I have been taught in class on the different types of critical analysis in reading stories. One particular form of critical analysis that caught my eye was the Modernist approach.

Modernist Literature, in its most basic definition, is literature that aims to change the world from what we see as it is. It makes us question it, it's rules and it's structure. It's a type of story telling that brings about a reader's own sense of radicalism and revolution.

Recently, I've had a debate with a fellow viner and a long time friend of mine in this site, @sirfizzwhizz, on the ethical depiction of a modernist superhero group known as The Elite in their conflict against the most iconic superhero known as Superman in the story known as "What's so Funny About Truth, Justice & the American Way?" . This is a story in which the central conflict is about the latter's approach to fighting crime is considered too weak and soft-hearted by the former. SirFizzWhizz brings up the point that most people enjoy heroes who are often written in a modernist way such as Daredevil, Wolverine and Post-Miller Batman because they are more often willing to go crawl through the mud of morality than the more lighthearted heroes such as the Flash, Superman and Captain America. This same argument is the one that bought up the idea for this thread since I've decided to start looking up on the reception and sales of comic books over time to see if this is how things actually are among the general audience in buying comic books.

To start things off, we bring up Alan Moore & Dave Gibbons' "Watchmen" and Frank Miller's The Dark Knight Returns, both of these stories were released in the 1980s and are still generally considered to be two of the greatest pieces of literature of all time. The former is famous for being a character study on a bunch of people with plenty of issues. It's antagonist, Ozymandias, is known for being a modernist character because of him committing the massacre of New York by the end of story so that the world's nations can change from attacking one another to attacking a made up enemy from space. For this, he is being considered one the greatest comic books villains of all time not just because of his famous "I did it 35 minutes ago" line but for doing what he thought was best for everyone else. On the other hand, Rorschach, the series' breakout character, ends up being the one most people root for since he was the only one who refused to go along with Ozymandias' plans because of Ozymandias' actions, although Rorschach himself was already killing off several people from even before the start of the actual story. Rorschach is also a depiction of a modernist character in a way because of how questionable his actions and beliefs are in comparison to societal norms.

Frank Miller's magnum opus, on the other hand, has been written in the modernist way by having the Dark Knight become a far cry from the wacky shark repellent carrying superhero before the late 1980s to the grim protector of Gotham City, making Batman the way he is today and becoming arguably the most popular superhero of my generation. Trading away the rainbow suits for darker threads, The story itself is also filled with social commentary about the topics of revolution on changing Gotham and others similar to it. It is also considered one of the best superhero stories of all time for it's themes, plot and character development.

"But, Life_Without_Progress, surely that's not the case for the past few years!" Even though most Batman fans in this site agree that Tom King's Batman, which still follows the general format of the character that Miller instated nearly 4 decades ago, is rather stale in comparison to past modern runs such as Morrison and Snyder, That doesn't change the fact that the volume has been repeatedly reaching the top ten sales of comic books each month. Sadly, this is not the case for Peter J. Tomasi & Patrick Gleason's Superman volume, with their run bringing back the character to his classic depiction. The run is well loved by most comic book fans but doesn't get as much sales with the general audience as much as Batman does.

With that in mind, fellow viners, do you think Modernist Literature is the best way to appeal superhero comic books to the general audience?

@sc@theamazingspidey thoughts, fellow literature enthusiasts?

@life_without_progress:

I will revisit this. I love literary theory.

I agree with that idea. Modernist literature, unlike the older formulas of comic books in the 70s and late 60s, is oddly enough open for a broader range of audiences than traditional comic book styles. As a kid, I always looked up to Superman. The way he fought for justice and stuff was always appealing to me, and the simplistic "I gotta stop the bad guys" story lines weren't a problem. But in the 70s, that was almost a trademark of comics at the time. Sure, they also went in directions that modern audiences would call "dark" and definitely had many story lines for mature audiences, but back then there was always a divide between "kids" and "adults." Even now, when kids are more open to "dark" movies, there is still that divide.

For example, (ranting time) Transformers Prime was a great show. It took its characters seriously as the show went on and didn't really pull any punches. The characterizations were all unique and weren't simple archetypes; it was a show that could truly appeal to both kids and adults. However, as it leaned more towards the adults, Hasbro needs to sell toys, and only kids really buy toys. So, the show was scrapped in favor of the most recent show, Robots in Disguise (which is the same name as the 2001 Transformers show so that's confusing).

The odd thing is that RiD still uses the same storyline as Prime. It's not like they began a new show with a new plot and characters; they were the same characters, kinda like what DBZ is to Dragon Ball. But in this case, it's the same story and characters but told in an entirely different way. The characters were more lighthearted, the colors were brighter, the art style was more cartoony. To sell toys, they turned their attention to promoting child audiences, but ended up alienating the adult audience. This was almost a pointless move IMO because kids still enjoyed Prime anyway. A lot of kids I knew liked Prime and a lot of adults liked Prime. Adults who grew up with the cartoony 80s cartoon still enjoyed Prime, and kids who were accustomed to the Michael Bay popcorn flicks still enjoyed Prime even though it had a much different, slower approach compared to the explody movies. (Side note, Optimus Prime still straight up murders enemies in the Bay films, so maybe kids are more exposed to dark stuff than I thought nowadays)

So in this way, it seems to me that modern comic audiences are more likely to appreciate the style you mentioned. At least that's what I've gotten from what I've seen from movies like Logan (lots of kids I know watched and really enjoyed Logan).

Bump for further interest.

So basically...people like stories that are closer to our reality (which is often depicted as not pretty)?

@ultimate_knight: It's more of a theoretical suggestion but yeah.

Would you agree though?

I think there is some legitimacy in such a statement, its just a little tricky because audiences in modern times are also fractured in certain ways and trending towards that. At least as far as certain hobbies, interests. The more variation available in broader strokes, as how individuals can live their lives, the more nuance their personalities, tastes, activities, lifestyles. Which can lead to new developments, which can lead to greater amounts of options and choice. If we compare mythological stories, which have certain similarities, and differences usually being because of certain geographical differences, with modern literature… well thats a lot of time, and individuals in modern times have larger pool of experiences, knowledge, so on… even as little as 70 so years ago, world wide affecting events like World War 2, helped influence and popularize superhero comics. I am not that knowledgable on the subject in detail, but I have heard that 9/11 has also had certain smaller influence on a variety of creative fiction.

What I am trying to say is, there are more niches within niches, and for every individual that wants a more cynical, ethically ambiguous, tense tale of inner as well as out conflict, you'll have an individual that wants wish fulfillment fantasy with bad guys and good guys, and… a variety of individuals, who'll want bits and pieces that combine aforementioned aspects, and whilst this could be said to have always been accurate, the degree that it exists today…. another way to thin about it, is how many websites exist to cater towards people today, as their were 20 years ago.

Its going to make any general approach a bit clunky as far as appealing to a general audience, but perhaps certain elements, combined with elements from other approaches… also we have to factor in certain variables, like characters, expectations. Sometimes fine-tuning is required, a certain degree of balance. I personally really liked Grant Morrison's All Star Superman, it came across as optimistic and intelligent and self aware and witty, and positive. I find a lot of other modern Superman stories optimistic… but naive, and clumsy and oblivious. Many would probably find it pretentious.

With one of your examples, The Elite were basically The Authority, and arguably used in a more straw man like fashion in it, and for some, thats how they like/prefer Superman, but for others… I greatly preferred the Civil War movie over the comic, because whilst both had conflict, I found that ideological conflict was better balanced in the movie over the comic. The movie was also pretty light, and silly, as opposed to oppressive and dark. A movie like Pan's Labyrinth with more quips and humor would be kind of lame, but its still got lots of fantastical parts, sentimental moments. The other important part here, is that stories that strike the right balance, and find large success, often get emulated, and sometimes thats how trends start… even if in the deconstruction, the wrong aspects get repeated/emphasized over others.

Nice blog by the way.

No that's stupid

make a super hero like All Might, funny, powerful and bad ass

Screw Batman, boring overrated 40 year old loser who dress up to replicate an animal that chases man that go crazy because they spilled some bleach on himself -.-

I dont think so.

I think the best way to appeal to your audience is to understand what your target demographics want (and dont want) and engineer your stories and characters around such information.

I mean Manga, in general, is the best example of this, they have genres for almost each and every demographics and they understand that there are no such thing as unitary rules of appeal or "general" audience.

That way artists and creators can focus their work and content base on their artistic predilections without having to make half-baked compromises because they are forced to make something that will satisfy every types of audiences.

@jedixman: Been a year but what you do think now?