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#1 Edited by AlphaQ (4888 posts) - - Show Bio

So during my morning meditations I started to ponder the great philosophical question of the age: "What if when a writer uses nano/micro/mille/whatever-seconds they don't mean it literally, or at least not in the way Battle forum users read it to mean?" Then I started thinking about how how street levelers have feats in the nanosecond range that nobody takes seriously, like Iron Fist. But what about characters who aren't street tier? That's when I remembered a funny feat in SW where Talaan catches a blaster bolt, which amazes Luke, in the space of a nanosecond.

It wasn’t the deflection of blasterfire with a bare hand that shocked him—he had fought plenty of Sith capable of that trick. What amazed Luke was the speed with which Taalon had moved. In the nanosecond it had taken the first bolt to cross the distance between them, the High Lord’s hand had risen to deflect it, traveling so fast that the appendage had literally seemed to disappear from one place and reappear in another.

Fate of the Jedi: Vortex

I found this funny at the time, since there is no way that the author is using nanosecond literally, since that would mean that Talaan and the blaster bolt are both FTL to many times faster than light. Bare in mind a beam of light doesn't even travel one foot in a nanosecond, unless Luke was firing from even closer the blaster bolt is FTL, and Talaan has been calced at twice the speed of light based on this feat IIRC.

For further confirmation we know nothing in Star Wars is faster than the speed of light, and we're extra certain blaster bolts aren't because the scientists who made this droid would surely know if they were.

I-Five stood nearby, aiming both fingers at the prince. "Please shut off the lightsaber, Your Highness," the droid said. "And toss those blasters aside as well."

Xizor snarled, his skin flaming with anger. I-Five's aim did not waver. "I'm sure you're quite fast, Prince Xizor, but not as fast as light." He shrugged. "Universal law and all that."

- Taken from Courscant Nights 1: Jedi Twilight

This got me thinking of another famous nanosecond feat Luke has, where he perceives in the space of a nanosecond (notably, however, he fails to react). From the same novel as the one where a blaster bolt reaches its target in a nanosecond and Talaan catches it.

He had no time to be astonished, barely even the nanosecond required to realize Abeloth had survived her fall into the cleft. He merely felt his feet shoot away and found himself dropping face-first. Luke tucked his chin and managed to flip to his back before he hit the stone floor. Abeloth was on top of him, her flesh blistered and smoking, her remaining leg entwining both of his, her remaining arm wrapped around the back of his neck.

The same writer who wrote the feat of Luke perceiving in a nanosecond also used nanosecond to describe Talaan and a blaster bolt moving, which would almost certainly mean moving many times faster than the speed of light, which is impossible in the verse without hyperspace. Even if you can accept that Talaan and the blaster bolt moved in a literal nanosecond, you'd have to accept that Luke failed to react in the same timeframe when facing Abeloth, meaning that Luke cannot react to blaster bolts. So it becomes a pick your poison situation:

1. Accept the the author uses nanosecond literally and Luke can perceive in nanoseconds but not react to blaster bolts (or at least not unless they have to travel much further than they did against Talaan). Blaster bolts are almost certainly many times faster than light.

2. Reject the the author uses nanosecond literally, meaning Luke's nanosecond perception feat is bunk, but we don't have confirmation he can't react to blaster bolts. Blaster bolts are probably not many times faster than light.

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#3 Posted by TheVivas (15563 posts) - - Show Bio

I’m not even sure what I just read.

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#4 Posted by IAmDuck (1142 posts) - - Show Bio

@alphaq: highschool DxD tends to suffer from the same thing......all the time

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#5 Posted by AmethystGravity (1913 posts) - - Show Bio

While I don't know the distance between Luke and Taalon, the text doesn't necessarily mean that the bolt traversed the entire distance in one nanosecond; rather, it's mostly confirmation that Tallon's hand moved however far it had to in the nanosecond.

It's quite clear that blaster bolts in general are not FTL, but the I-five quote doesn't really prove that nothing in Star Wars is FTL because hyperspace is a thing, and so is fold space, force storms, galaxy-spanning telepathy, etc...

Not that I'm saying whether or not I know how fast exactly Luke is.

And hey, maybe Taalon used fold space on his hand and re-attached it! XD

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#6 Posted by oceanmaster21 (14191 posts) - - Show Bio

Hmm

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#7 Posted by AlphaQ (4888 posts) - - Show Bio
@thevivas said:

I’m not even sure what I just read.

To sum it up, writers don't use the word "nanosecond" to mean literally one billionth of a second all the time, ignorance, hyperbole and informal use of the word all mean that it is hasty to take it at face value all the time . In the same novel that Luke perceives in a "nanosecond" Troy Denning used "nanosecond" to describe the amount of time it took a blaster bolt to cross a distance and Talaan to catch it. It would be ridiculous to suggest the writer meant one nanosecond literally, and the other hyperbolically/informally/mistakenly. So if Denning meant nanosecond literally then that leads to the unbelievable conclusions that Luke can't react to a blaster bolt (since he failed to react in a nanosecond against Abeloth) and the blaster bolt was many times faster than light, and probably Talaan as well. The most reasonable conclusion is that Denning wasn't using nanosecond literally, meaning Luke's nanosecond perception feat is debunked.

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#8 Posted by AlphaQ (4888 posts) - - Show Bio
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#9 Posted by oceanmaster21 (14191 posts) - - Show Bio

@alphaq: Luke can react and perceive nano second I mean he is argubally one of the most versatile charchaters in fiction bro

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#10 Posted by TwentyGoodMen (1042 posts) - - Show Bio

Gonna wait for some one to challenge this and prove it wrong if they can, so far nobody has

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#11 Posted by AlphaQ (4888 posts) - - Show Bio

@oceanmaster21 said:

@alphaq: Luke can react and perceive nano second I mean he is argubally one of the most versatile charchaters in fiction bro

Under non-combat situations, he might be able to use his force senses in multi-nanoseconds, since he was able to sense the strength of a pseudo-black hole in nanoseconds one time, but he can't react in a nanosecond, since he failed to react in one in the quote in the OP. And he's far from the most versatile character in fiction, pretty much anyone who warps reality or uses powersets that are essentially only limited by imagination (like a Green Lantern ring or the Power Cosmic) are significantly more versatile.

Gonna wait for some one to challenge this and prove it wrong if they can, so far nobody has

The Star Wars fandom here are cucks, they won't even defend one of their most cherished feats.

Also, when I get my copy of FotJ: Apocalypse back next week I'll post the scene I mentioned to you earlier where Luke is stalemated by a High Lord of the Sith, a guy who was then killed by blaster bolts (IIRC Luke backed off when his three Jedi friends started firing their blasters but I'll have to check that).

Also I remembered that in that book a non-force sensitive politician resisted Abeloth's torture for weeks without giving up important information on the Jedi Order (though he was on the cusp of doing so). Kind of a terrible showing for the SW verse's telepathy when a guy with a strong will can close his mind to the strongest telepath in the verse (or at least, one far stronger than the likes of Luke or Palpatine).

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#12 Edited by AlphaQ (4888 posts) - - Show Bio

I think I'll tag @i_like_swords and @reikai, two users with thoughts on Star Wars speed levels I got the impression were outside CV's norms.

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#13 Posted by i_like_swords (24802 posts) - - Show Bio

@alphaq: I've never really subscribed to SW characters being even slightly near the speed of light. I don't really care for exact calculations/measurements of speed. I just want to look at a feat and be able to say "yes, X is faster than Y".

Your post seems pretty solid.

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#14 Posted by AlphaQ (4888 posts) - - Show Bio

@i_like_swords: I remember being disappointed that you weren't more vocal on that point on the boards, considering your name carried a lot of weight among the fandom on this site. But then, you mainly posted in SW vs SW battles anyway.

Cheers.

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#15 Posted by i_like_swords (24802 posts) - - Show Bio

@alphaq: You mean in SW vs other verses? Yeah, I don't often get wrapped up in that.

Np.

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#16 Posted by AlphaQ (4888 posts) - - Show Bio

@i_like_swords: Yeah. People who comment in SW vs other verses generally try to find the SW character's absolute speed, whereas in SW vs SW threads most people try and find their speed relative to each other.

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#17 Posted by Azronger (2931 posts) - - Show Bio

@i_like_swords: Dooku has officially been stated to be faster than light though :>

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#18 Posted by Monmouth (202 posts) - - Show Bio

It's this term called "literary expression". Maybe these SW aficionados need to learn it.

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#19 Edited by AlphaQ (4888 posts) - - Show Bio

@i_like_swords: Hey man, now that I got your attention, what're your thoughts on SW TP in the battle forums. Most people think people like Luke and Palps have TP in the 20 billion range but after looking at the context of that feat with Palps I was convinced they're probably city level, and that's probably being generous tbh, since there is a lot of context on the Byss feat. And then there are low showings like Abeloth being unable to break a politician.

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#20 Edited by i_like_swords (24802 posts) - - Show Bio

@alphaq: I'm not sure what you mean regarding Sidious. To me the evidence for his telepathic influence over the entire empire is fairly clear. Aside from his hold over the population of Byss, there's the fact the empire immediately began to crumble as soon as Sidious died in RotJ. It's stated repeatedly that his will is holding it all together.

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#21 Posted by AlphaQ (4888 posts) - - Show Bio

@i_like_swords: I haven't researched the Empire collapsing stuff but I'm pretty sure Sidious built that reliance upon him into the structure of his Empire, not just within his military to rely on his Battle Meditation (I vaguely remember it being said that his BM was an essential part of the Empire's military)and precognition but on the political level, similar to what real dictators do. A too stable Empire could mean an Emperor would become disposable. Regardless, holding the Empire together would only require affecting people with actual decision making powers on a scale that would affect the Empire as a whole, so senators and military generals are probably who that refers to.

On the Byss situtation it is only impressive on the drain front since for every mind he affected, he amped himself with their life force or fed it into creating a nexus on the planet that already passively affects minds. And originally only millions of people were settled on Byss, meaning he increased the number of people affected in increments as his power from draining more and more increased, and as each previous batch of people got weaker. The only thing he did under his own steam was draining the first millions and that was a prep feat.

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#22 Posted by Azronger (2931 posts) - - Show Bio

@alphaq

I haven't researched the Empire collapsing stuff but I'm pretty sure Sidious built that reliance upon him into the structure of his Empire, not just within his military to rely on his Battle Meditation (I vaguely remember it being said that his BM was an essential part of the Empire's military)and precognition but on the political level, similar to what real dictators do. A too stable Empire could mean an Emperor would become disposable. Regardless, holding the Empire together would only require affecting people with actual decision making powers on a scale that would affect the Empire as a whole, so senators and military generals are probably who that refers to.

Incorrect. Emperor Palpatine dominated every single soldier in the Imperial Army:

C'baoth snorted. "So is this what you want me for, Grand Admiral Thrawn?" he asked scornfully. "To turn your ships into puppets for you?"

"Not at all, Master C'baoth," Thrawn told him, his voice perfectly calm again. "My analogy with combat borg implants was a carefully considered one. The Emperor's fatal error was in seeking to control the entire Imperial Fleet personally, as completely and constantly as possible. That, over the long run, is what did the damage. My wish is merely to have you enhance the coordination between ships and task forces - and then only at critical times and in carefully selected combat situations."

Heir to the Empire

Note how every soldier, no matter their rank, is affected by the Emperor's death:

Thrawn smiled back. "It is indeed. Tell me, Master C'baoth: are you familiar with the Imperial Fleet's disastrous defeat at the Battle of Endor five years ago?"

"I've heard rumors. One of the offworlders who came here spoke about it." C'baoth's gaze drifted to the window, to the palace/crypt visible across the square. "Though only briefly."

Pellaeon swallowed. Thrawn himself didn't seem to notice the implication. "Then you must have wondered how a few dozen Rebel ships could possibly rout an Imperial force that outgunned it by at least ten to one."

"I didn't spend much time with such wonderings," C'baoth said dryly. "I assumed that the Rebels were simply better warriors."

"In a sense, that's true," Thrawn agreed. "The Rebels did indeed fight better, but not because of any special abilities or training. They fought better than the Fleet because the Emperor was dead."

He turned to look at Pellaeon. "You were there, Captain—you must have noticed it. The sudden loss of coordination between crew members and ships; the loss of efficiency and discipline. The loss, in short, of that elusive quality we call fighting spirit."

"There was some confusion, yes," Pellaeon said stiffly. He was starting to see where Thrawn was going with this, and he didn't like it a bit. "But nothing that can't be explained by the normal stresses of battle."

One blue-black eyebrow went up, just slightly. "Really? The loss of the Executor—the sudden, last-minute TIE fighter incompetence that brought about the destruction of the Death Star itself—the loss of six other Star Destroyers in engagements that none of them should have had trouble with? All of that nothing but normal battle stress?"

"The Emperor was not directing the battle," Pellaeon snapped with a fire that startled him. "Not in any way. I was there, Admiral—I know."

"Yes, Captain, you were there," Thrawn said, his voice abruptly hard. "And it's time you gave up your blindfold and faced the truth, no matter how bitter you find it. You had no real fighting spirit of your own anymore—none of you in the Imperial Fleet did. It was the Emperor's will that drove you; the Emperor's mind that provided you with strength and resolve and efficiency. You were as dependent on that presence as if you were all borg - implanted into a combat Computer."

Heir to the Empire

For the first time, the Death Star rocked. The collision with the exploding destroyer was only the beginning, leading to various systems breakdowns, which led to reactor meltdowns, which led to personnel panic, abandonment of posts, further malfunctions, and general chaos. Smoke was everywhere, substantial rumblings came from all directions at once, people were running and shouting. Electrical fires, steam explosions, cabin depressurizations, disruption of chain-of-command. Added to this, the continued bombardments by Rebel Cruisers—smelling fear in the enemy—merely heightened the sense of hysteria that was already pervasive. For the Emperor was dead. The central, powerful evil that had been the cohesive force to the Empire was gone; and when the dark side was this diffused, this nondirected—this was simply where it led.

Confusion.

Desperation.

Damp fear.

Return of the Jedi novelization

With the Emperor dead, the central, powerful evil that had been the cohesive force of the Empire was gone. With the Dark Side diffused and undirected, the Imperials were left with nothing but confusion, desperation, and damp fear. The sudden loss of coordination and fighting spirit allowed Han Solo, Princess Leia and the Rebel Commandos to disable the shield generator.

Heir to the Empire Sourcebook

Note how it is stated numerous times it is Palpatine's dark side power that holds the Empire together. Not his political power.

The central, powerful evil that had been the cohesive force to the Empire was gone; and when the dark side was this diffused, this nondirected—this was simply where it led.

Return of the Jedi novelization

With the Emperor dead, the central, powerful evil that had been the cohesive force of the Empire was gone. With the Dark Side diffused and undirected, the Imperials were left with nothing but confusion, desperation, and damp fear.

Heir to the Empire Sourcebook

At the decisive Battle of Endor, the Jedi returned to aid the Alliance in the form of Luke Skywalker and his father Anakin. The Emperor was killed, his fleet scattered, and his dark will which held the Empire together destroyed. Without its binding, the Empire began to unravel.

Heir to the Empire Sourcebook

Palpatine knew precisely why the Empire couldn’t last without his dread power: he had designed it that way. No one ever suspected how much he relied on the Dark Side of the Force. He shaped those of his government by using the Force against them. He used it to control his fleets and to drive his soldiers on to victory. He used it to destroy his enemies from a distance and learn of conspiracies against him. Without it, there was no way the Empire could endure, as he had designed it. The Dark Side flowed through him like some primordial ichor and was the key to all his power.

Dark Empire Sourcebook

The Imperial military numbered in the tens of trillions, by the way:

The Imperial military is a massive organization, with tens of trillions of regular Army soldiers, trillions of fleet crew and a vast force of Stormtroopers both cloned and conditioned.

Rebellion Era Campaign Guide

He did this passively presumably ever since the Empire's inception with no strain whatsoever. Palpatine is a casual galactic telepath.

On the Byss situtation it is only impressive on the drain front since for every mind he affected, he amped himself with their life force or fed it into creating a nexus on the planet that already passively affects minds. And originally only millions of people were settled on Byss, meaning he increased the number of people affected in increments as his power from draining more and more increased, and as each previous batch of people got weaker. The only thing he did under his own steam was draining the first millions and that was a prep feat.

Got a source for him amping himself with the Drain? That's contradicted many times. It's stated he used part of the energy in his experiments on Byss.

After choosing Byss as his resort world, Palpatine lured eager nobles to the planet—then used his dark powers to enslave its people, channeling their life energies for use in his own vile experiments within the fell Imperial Citadel.

The Essential Atlas

Some of it went to extending his lifespan. That's a clear contradiction to the notion he would have used it to boost his power. The dark side degrades the flesh, and Palpatine's body was literally falling apart due to the ridiculous amounts of power he was channelling. Making himself more powerful would only further that degradation, so him using it to sustain himself specifically means he wasn't using it to boost his power.

What better lure for multitudes than Byss’s siren call of beauty and peace? Once there, their wills are destroyed by the Emperor and his Adepts, and replaced with an illusion of tranquility as they blissfully surrender their life energy to sustain the Emperor.

Dark Empire Sourcebook

But early on, Palpatine learned that addiction to the fathomless energies of the Dark Side carried a great price: age and decay hastened their pace, and his body collapsed toward ruin, like a world oppressed.

Dark Empire Endnotes

Palpatine had become such a creature of the dark side that its powers consumed him. It constantly fed at his core and withered his flesh. The very power that cemented his rule over the galaxy threatened his life, and so he ingeniously turned to technology to cheat death.

The Dark Empire Saga
No Caption Provided
No Caption Provided

So clearly, the Emperor is capable of casually dominating the minds of 20 billion people without the need to amp himself with anything.

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#23 Posted by AlphaQ (4888 posts) - - Show Bio

@azronger: So sorry for not responding before now, at first I procrastinated, then I saw you comment in a recent thread and I remembered I still owed you a response.

The first quote deals with Battle Meditation, not conventional TP. If he was actually controlling the Empire's military through mind control then they wouldn't still be loyal after his death. Palpatine had intentionally made his troops over reliant on his Battle Meditation.

The next three deal with the troops at the Battle of Endor.

The next four also deal with Battle Meditation. The fourth in particular explains the situation. Nothing about controlling minds, except for those in his government, possibly. I should also point out that saying someone's will achieves something is a common way of saying someone's control, like "Hitler's will drove Germany into WW2".

Battle Meditation would only be relevant when their is actual battles, he was never mentioned to affect trillions at once. He's galactic range and his Battle Meditation feats are extraordinary, but that's a special skill in itself, his TP is different.

I don't exactly need a quote saying that he amped himself with Drain, we know that he drained the inhabitants of Byss (we could argue that the Emperor designed the nexus to passively drain and TP the Byss inhabitants without any input from him, which is actually way better for Sidious fans) and when characters have access to power outside their general/personal power then all feats are suspect. If you actually believe Sidious was draining the inhabitants himself (I actually don't believe he was, I think the TP and Drain were passive affects of the nexus for reasons I can explain if necessary), then it means post-Byss Sidious is featless, since there is no proof he didn't use their energies. The burden of proof is on the person claiming a character didn't use an additional source of power they have access too when they perform a feat - Sidious seems to be a bit like Valkorion in that regard. Technically Valkorion might not have used any energy he got from various amps throughout his history, and technically Sidious might not have used any power he got from Byss, but right now they're all unusable feats. I'm actually surprised Sid has never got called on this... Sidous fans, word to the wise, just forget about Byss. If people start looking into it too closely, Sidious is finished.

Saying that he used the power to fuel experiments doesn't mean he used it exclusively for that purpose. I use some of my income to buy toilet paper, I don't spend all of it buying toilet paper. Also, even if Palps didn't use the energies he got draining the inhabitants to TP them, the inhabitants themselves still got weaker, so relative to them he was still amped.

Palpatine was shown that he was still trying to make himself more powerful, it is mentioned that that's what he did between RotJ and DE - study the force to become more powerful. Also, he could just take a new body if he wore out a body too quickly. So I don't buy at all that he would forgo power if he had access to it. And just because he used part of its power to sustain himself doesn't mean he didn't use it for other things, he could simply have been doing both.

Finally, the amount of dark side power that he was using to drain and TP the inhabitants is not actually increased if he was using the energy he got from draining them in the effort. He'd still be channeling the same amount regardless of where he got it from.

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#24 Posted by Azronger (2931 posts) - - Show Bio

@alphaq said:

The first quote deals with Battle Meditation, not conventional TP. If he was actually controlling the Empire's military through mind control then they wouldn't still be loyal after his death. Palpatine had intentionally made his troops over reliant on his Battle Meditation.

Um, I thought it was pretty much crystal clear it was mind domination, given Thrawn differentiates it from Battle Meditation and states he controlled the Fleet. I mean, duh?

C'baoth snorted. "So is this what you want me for, Grand Admiral Thrawn?" he asked scornfully. "To turn your ships into puppets for you?"

"Not at all, Master C'baoth," Thrawn told him, his voice perfectly calm again. "My analogy with combat borg implants was a carefully considered one. The Emperor's fatal error was in seeking to control the entire Imperial Fleet personally, as completely and constantly as possible. That, over the long run, is what did the damage. My wish is merely to have you enhance the coordination between ships and task forces - and then only at critical times and in carefully selected combat situations."

Heir to the Empire

And them not being loyal to Palpatine after his death is nonsense, given how they never even knew they were being mentally influenced in the first place.

The next three deal with the troops at the Battle of Endor.

Apparently you missed the parts where Palpatine was labelled "the cohesive force of the Empire," or somehow mistook the entire Galactic Empire for just the troops present at the Battle of Endor.

For the first time, the Death Star rocked. The collision with the exploding destroyer was only the beginning, leading to various systems breakdowns, which led to reactor meltdowns, which led to personnel panic, abandonment of posts, further malfunctions, and general chaos. Smoke was everywhere, substantial rumblings came from all directions at once, people were running and shouting. Electrical fires, steam explosions, cabin depressurizations, disruption of chain-of-command. Added to this, the continued bombardments by Rebel Cruisers—smelling fear in the enemy—merely heightened the sense of hysteria that was already pervasive. For the Emperor was dead. The central, powerful evil that had been the cohesive force to the Empire was gone; and when the dark side was this diffused, this nondirected—this was simply where it led.

Confusion.

Desperation.

Damp fear.

Return of the Jedi Novelization

With the Emperor dead, the central, powerful evil that had been the cohesive force of the Empire was gone. With the Dark Side diffused and undirected, the Imperials were left with nothing but confusion, desperation, and damp fear. The sudden loss of coordination and fighting spirit allowed Han Solo, Princess Leia and the Rebel Commandos to disable the shield generator.

Heir to the Empire Sourcebook

Only the first quote deals with Endor, but that is beside the point, which was to demonstrate the effects of Palpatine dying had on the soldiers, and just how complete the Emperor's domination was. Merely to enhance the coordination between troops would be adding to the base competency already present. What you imply by suggesting Palpatine's influence was nothing more than Battle Meditation is that the best soldiers in the Empire are always panicking, confused, desperate and fearful, even when they outgun the enemy ten to one, when operating without any Force-assisted coordination. I hope I don't need to tell you just how inane that sounds.

The next four also deal with Battle Meditation. The fourth in particular explains the situation. Nothing about controlling minds, except for those in his government, possibly. I should also point out that saying someone's will achieves something is a common way of saying someone's control, like "Hitler's will drove Germany into WW2".

More nonsense, and apparent incapability to read, too. I mean, what does it take for a piece of text to directly state "he used [the dark side] to control his fleets" and for a person to interpret that as " it says nothing about controlling minds!"?

And no, Palpatine's will holding the Empire together isn't hyperbole. There are mountains of evidence of it being literal, including other quotes that you ridiculously interpret as mere Battle Meditation, as well as a direct example of what happened immediately after the Emperor died: the Empire disintegrated faster than even the Rebel strategists had suspected, which is saying something.

I don't exactly need a quote saying that he amped himself with Drain, we know that he drained the inhabitants of Byss (we could argue that the Emperor designed the nexus to passively drain and TP the Byss inhabitants without any input from him, which is actually way better for Sidious fans) and when characters have access to power outside their general/personal power then all feats are suspect. If you actually believe Sidious was draining the inhabitants himself (I actually don't believe he was, I think the TP and Drain were passive affects of the nexus for reasons I can explain if necessary), then it means post-Byss Sidious is featless, since there is no proof he didn't use their energies. The burden of proof is on the person claiming a character didn't use an additional source of power they have access too when they perform a feat - Sidious seems to be a bit like Valkorion in that regard. Technically Valkorion might not have used any energy he got from various amps throughout his history, and technically Sidious might not have used any power he got from Byss, but right now they're all unusable feats. I'm actually surprised Sid has never got called on this... Sidous fans, word to the wise, just forget about Byss. If people start looking into it too closely, Sidious is finished.

Apparently you have no clue on how the Drain Life ability even works, if you equate it to a nexus amp. The powers you gain from it are permanently added to your initial power level, so even if he was boosting his power with the colonists' life force, it wouldn't change a thing. He would always have access to the power he gained from draining them. It's forever a part of him.

And no, Palpatine actively drained and dominated them. It wasn't the nexus. What even is your proof for that?

Almost mindless under the oppression of the Emperor's dark side influence, the people of Byss find their life energies constantly leeched off during the Emperor's vile machinations.

Byss and the Deep Core

Imperial ships ferried millions of immigrants to the planet Byss, where the Emperor fed off their life energies through the dark side.

The New Essential Guide to Characters

After choosing Byss as his resort world, Palpatine lured eager nobles to the planet—then used his dark powers to enslave its people, channeling their life energies for use in his own vile experiments within the fell Imperial Citadel.

The Essential Atlas

This is where the Emperor’s Dark Side skill comes into play. Just as he can siphon off the vital life force of his subjects on Byss, he can will his own personality, his very life, into a waiting receptacle body.

Dark Empire Sourcebook

Saying that he used the power to fuel experiments doesn't mean he used it exclusively for that purpose. I use some of my income to buy toilet paper, I don't spend all of it buying toilet paper.

Your only valid point so far.

Also, even if Palps didn't use the energies he got draining the inhabitants to TP them, the inhabitants themselves still got weaker, so relative to them he was still amped.

What are you even saying here?

Palpatine was shown that he was still trying to make himself more powerful, it is mentioned that that's what he did between RotJ and DE - study the force to become more powerful. Also, he could just take a new body if he wore out a body too quickly. So I don't buy at all that he would forgo power if he had access to it. And just because he used part of its power to sustain himself doesn't mean he didn't use it for other things, he could simply have been doing both.

Yes, all of this is true after the events of Return of the Jedi, but we are discussing his Byss feat many years prior to it, are we not? He didn't have clone bodies to which project himself to after dying then, so if his goal was eternal life, using the drained life force to increase his power would directly go against that goal. Occam's razor would thus have it that he didn't increase his power with the life force he drained.

Finally, the amount of dark side power that he was using to drain and TP the inhabitants is not actually increased if he was using the energy he got from draining them in the effort. He'd still be channeling the same amount regardless of where he got it from.

What are even is your point here?

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#25 Posted by AlphaQ (4888 posts) - - Show Bio

@azronger You seem weirdly aggressive/angry. Chill man :/

C'baoth snorted. "So is this what you want me for, Grand Admiral Thrawn?" he asked scornfully. "To turn your ships into puppets for you?"

"Not at all, Master C'baoth," Thrawn told him, his voice perfectly calm again. "My analogy with combat borg implants was a carefully considered one. The Emperor's fatal error was in seeking to control the entire Imperial Fleet personally, as completely and constantly as possible. That, over the long run, is what did the damage. My wish is merely to have you enhance the coordination between ships and task forces - and then only at critical times and in carefully selected combat situations."

Um, I thought it was pretty much crystal clear it was mind domination, given Thrawn differentiates it from Battle Meditation and states he controlled the Fleet. I mean, duh?

Nowhere does Thrawn differentiate what Palpatine did from Battle Meditation, the only sentence in the passage that relates to Palpatine is "The Emperor's fatal error was in seeking to control the entire Imperial Fleet personally, as completely and constantly as possible". The points that should be noted on this is

  1. The only source Thrawn had for information on any TP or Battle Meditation that the Emperor was using was the reports from the Battle of Endor, which he used to convince Palleon of Palpatine's influence (Palleon also citing his being present at the the Empire's defeat at the Battle of Endor also adds credence to the idea that the Emporer's influence, at least in that battle, was localized to that location). Every piece of evidence he cites can be explained by Palpatine using Battle Meditation to increase battle spirit and co-ordination. Even if Thrawn believed Palpatine was outright dominated the troops mind's we see from looking at the same body of evidence he had, with the benefit of extensive out of universe sources on the nature of Force powers that he is not privy to, that it can all be explained by Battle Meditation.
  2. Thrawn does not say that Palpatine controlled the Imperial Fleet completely or constantly, merely that he tried to. Whether or not Thrawn believed he succeeded is not stated.
  3. Control is not an absolute thing, it comes in degrees. Battle Meditation isn't an outright mind control ability but it is still a form of control, since it makes troops fight harder than they normally would.
  4. Thrawn was not differentiating between mind control and Battle Meditation because we can see that he aims to have C'baoth refrain from using Battle Meditation unless necessary, implying that it is overuse of Battle Meditation that he is warning against, not the outright mental control that you are suggesting.

And them not being loyal to Palpatine after his death is nonsense, given how they never even knew they were being mentally influenced in the first place.

If they were being controlled being actively controlled by Palpatine to be loyal, then when that stopped they should not remain loyal... if I'm being mind controlled to jump on the spot, them when that control vanishes, I should stop. The only change in the Imperial Navy that we are told about it a weakening of Battle resolve and ability, not some mass, spur of the moment switching of allegiances that one would expect if their loyalty was actually being affected by the Emperor. Whether or not they were aware of the control would be irrelevant.

Apparently you missed the parts where Palpatine was labelled "the cohesive force of the Empire," or somehow mistook the entire Galactic Empire for just the troops present at the Battle of Endor.

For the first time, the Death Star rocked. The collision with the exploding destroyer was only the beginning, leading to various systems breakdowns, which led to reactor meltdowns, which led to personnel panic, abandonment of posts, further malfunctions, and general chaos. Smoke was everywhere, substantial rumblings came from all directions at once, people were running and shouting. Electrical fires, steam explosions, cabin depressurizations, disruption of chain-of-command. Added to this, the continued bombardments by Rebel Cruisers—smelling fear in the enemy—merely heightened the sense of hysteria that was already pervasive. For the Emperor was dead. The central, powerful evil that had been the cohesive force to the Empire was gone; and when the dark side was this diffused, this nondirected—this was simply where it led.

Confusion.

Desperation.

Damp fear.

Return of the Jedi Novelization

With the Emperor dead, the central, powerful evil that had been the cohesive force of the Empire was gone. With the Dark Side diffused and undirected, the Imperials were left with nothing but confusion, desperation, and damp fear. The sudden loss of coordination and fighting spirit allowed Han Solo, Princess Leia and the Rebel Commandos to disable the shield generator.

Heir to the Empire Sourcebook

I should have thought it obvious that the Emperor was the cohesive force of the Empires, sans telepathy. For a variety of mundanely political and psychological reasons he would be considered such, his myriad dark side influences notwithstanding. Nowhere does it say that he was using telepathy on the Empire, and the only quantifiable difference his absence/death made on the immediate psychological performances of the Imperials present at the Battle of Endor, so yes, that still only applies to the Battle of Endor.

Only the first quote deals with Endor, but that is beside the point, which was to demonstrate the effects of Palpatine dying had on the soldiers, and just how complete the Emperor's domination was. Merely to enhance the coordination between troops would be adding to the base competency already present. What you imply by suggesting Palpatine's influence was nothing more than Battle Meditation is that the best soldiers in the Empire are always panicking, confused, desperate and fearful, even when they outgun the enemy ten to one, when operating without any Force-assisted coordination. I hope I don't need to tell you just how inane that sounds.

Thrawn outright says just that. In the same way troops that have their abilities enhanced by technological means becomes dependent on them to the extent that their baseline abilities atrophy, so too did the Imperials abilities atrophy due to an over-reliance on Sheev's Battle Meditation. Thrawn outright acknowledges that the Rebellion's warriors were superior for exactly this reason, and that he wanted to avoid overuse of C'baoth's Battle Meditation so that his own troops are not likewise enfeebled. By no means were they the best troops in the galaxy without the Emperor amping their resolve, it's even implied that Sheev intentionally built this weakness into the Empire to increase its dependency on him.

More nonsense, and apparent incapability to read, too. I mean, what does it take for a piece of text to directly state "he used [the dark side] to control his fleets" and for a person to interpret that as " it says nothing about controlling minds!"?

There are several force abilities that can be used to control a fleet, obviously Battle Meditation, but also mind control of people in positions of authority and precognition to direct them in battle. I don't see why your using this as evidence that Palp's is mind controlling the whole fleet, since it could mean a variety of things. If you want to use it as evidence of him using Mind Control you'll have to find explicit confirmation.

And no, Palpatine's will holding the Empire together isn't hyperbole. There are mountains of evidence of it being literal, including other quotes that you ridiculously interpret as mere Battle Meditation, as well as a direct example of what happened immediately after the Emperor died: the Empire disintegrated faster than even the Rebel strategists had suspected, which is saying something.

Perhaps there might be that I haven't seen, but so far you haven't presenting anything close.

The Empire disintegrated but Palpatine designed it to in a variety of political and force based ways, as per the quote that you presented. As per TP, the only affects his death had was a weak military reliant on Battle Meditation and that some of his politicians presumably were now free to switch allegiances. The rest were not to do with TP.

Apparently you have no clue on how the Drain Life ability even works, if you equate it to a nexus amp. The powers you gain from it are permanently added to your initial power level, so even if he was boosting his power with the colonists' life force, it wouldn't change a thing. He would always have access to the power he gained from draining them. It's forever a part of him.

There are many different drain based abilities. Also, I've seen you claim that draining abilities afford a permanent amp before, but I've never seen any proof of this? Care to provide one? I've seen Kreia explain Drain as being essentially the inverse of force healing, which isn't a permanent amp, so I have until now assumed the amp was typically temporary.

And no, Palpatine actively drained and dominated them. It wasn't the nexus. What even is your proof for that?

Almost mindless under the oppression of the Emperor's dark side influence, the people of Byss find their life energies constantly leeched off during the Emperor's vile machinations.

Byss and the Deep Core

Imperial ships ferried millions of immigrants to the planet Byss, where the Emperor fed off their life energies through the dark side.

The New Essential Guide to Characters

After choosing Byss as his resort world, Palpatine lured eager nobles to the planet—then used his dark powers to enslave its people, channeling their life energies for use in his own vile experiments within the fell Imperial Citadel.

The Essential Atlas

This is where the Emperor’s Dark Side skill comes into play. Just as he can siphon off the vital life force of his subjects on Byss, he can will his own personality, his very life, into a waiting receptacle body.

Dark Empire Sourcebook

Nowhere does that state active TP'ing/draining, and since we know Palpatine had decades of prep, outside assitance and IIRC rituals to do what he did on Byss (as well as the fact that originally only millions settled on Byss, implying that the Emperor had to incrementally increase the amount he was draining up to twenty billion since he needed the power from the previous batch of settlers to drain the consecutive one), I find it unreasonable for you to assume it is. And remember, in my opinion saying that the nexus did it on it's own (since we know even regular nexus's have passive mental and physical effects) due to his designing it that way is actually much more generous to him, since Palpatine wouldn't be basically featless post-Byss.

Also of note is that I have heard that Byss apparently remained loyal (I don't have quotes of this right now) after the Emperor's death, implying that the nexus was what enslaved their wills. Since he couldn't maintain any influence over the Imperial Fleets post-death, he would surely not have been able to maintain any influence over Byss, therefore it must have been the nexus.

Saying that he used the power to fuel experiments doesn't mean he used it exclusively for that purpose. I use some of my income to buy toilet paper, I don't spend all of it buying toilet paper.

Your only valid point so far.

Thank you.

Also, even if Palps didn't use the energies he got draining the inhabitants to TP them, the inhabitants themselves still got weaker, so relative to them he was still amped.

What are you even saying here?

People who have been drained are weaker in the Force/physically/mentally, so using telepathy on them would be easier. I should have said that those people were easier to TP (nerfed TP resistance) than your typical fodder, since they had been drained. Like if I fought a sick guy, technically I'm not amped, but since that guy is weakened, relative to him I am amped.

Palpatine was shown that he was still trying to make himself more powerful, it is mentioned that that's what he did between RotJ and DE - study the force to become more powerful. Also, he could just take a new body if he wore out a body too quickly. So I don't buy at all that he would forgo power if he had access to it. And just because he used part of its power to sustain himself doesn't mean he didn't use it for other things, he could simply have been doing both.

Yes, all of this is true after the events of Return of the Jedi, but we are discussing his Byss feat many years prior to it, are we not? He didn't have clone bodies to which project himself to after dying then, so if his goal was eternal life, using the drained life force to increase his power would directly go against that goal. Occam's razor would thus have it that he didn't increase his power with the life force he drained.

Actually, I've never really understood why people ever used Occam's razor on the Battle Forums, except for the most trivial of details. I believe that our reliance on feats is because the underline philosophy on the Battle Forums is that of empiricism, we can only claim what we can actually prove, and that the standard position to take is that of rigorous lowballing. That's why I want explicit confirmation of your claims, since the burden of proof to all your claims lies with you, I don't actually have to prove Sheev does not have any of these feats (he might well have even better ones off-screen), I just have to undermine the argument that he does.

Since we have no exact date Palpatine actually started having clones in reserve, that means that we can't assume he didn't have clones already when he started messing around with Byss. The burden of proof is on you to prove that he didn't have clones when he got his hands on Byss, if you want to start claiming he forewent any personal amps. Regardless of whether you can or not, the fact remains that Palpatine was using their energies to preserve his life, which is either an amp since he doesn't have to use his personal reserves to achieve that feat at best or at worst meaning that he would be dead in his original body. Also there are indication that Palpatine's powers grew across all his character's history from TPM to ROTS to ROTJ to DE, so you'll have to explain why he didn't halt his growth intentionally if you believe this "Palpatine wanted to keep himself weaker since he didn't want to age" arguments.

One more thing, the dark side is still a net boon to a user, Plagueis even says something along the lines of its absence being more debilitating than it's aging cost to apprentice Sidious. An increase in power may amp his deterioration but it also increases his ability to slow it - and there is no proof that the ratio of the former is greater than the latter.

Finally, the amount of dark side power that he was using to drain and TP the inhabitants is not actually increased if he was using the energy he got from draining them in the effort. He'd still be channeling the same amount regardless of where he got it from.

What are even is your point here?

You said that Palpatine would avoid channeling excess amounts of the dark side since it increased his physical deterioration, I pointed out that the amount he is actually channeling is actually unchanged by where he got the energy from. If I power a jog from reserves of fat I have stored in my body or through power I acquired externally, like a candy bar, I am still expending the same amount of energy regardless of its source. TP'ing under his own power affords no advantage to TP'ing under the power of the Byss population's.

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#26 Posted by Sergeant-RL3 (2058 posts) - - Show Bio

I just watch the movies. My Luke Skywaker is a bit of a goof who kissed his sister.

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#27 Posted by AlphaQ (4888 posts) - - Show Bio

@azronger: Also, I've been researching the Battle of Endor and a Dark Side Adept under Palpatine's command was stated to have been using Battle Meditation for the Imperials and to have stopped when he sensed Palpatine's death. Got any confirmation that Palpatine was using the Battle Meditation and that it wasn't just that guy?