@azronger You seem weirdly aggressive/angry. Chill man :/
C'baoth snorted. "So is this what you want me for, Grand Admiral Thrawn?" he asked scornfully. "To turn your ships into puppets for you?"
"Not at all, Master C'baoth," Thrawn told him, his voice perfectly calm again. "My analogy with combat borg implants was a carefully considered one. The Emperor's fatal error was in seeking to control the entire Imperial Fleet personally, as completely and constantly as possible. That, over the long run, is what did the damage. My wish is merely to have you enhance the coordination between ships and task forces - and then only at critical times and in carefully selected combat situations."
Um, I thought it was pretty much crystal clear it was mind domination, given Thrawn differentiates it from Battle Meditation and states he controlled the Fleet. I mean, duh?
Nowhere does Thrawn differentiate what Palpatine did from Battle Meditation, the only sentence in the passage that relates to Palpatine is "The Emperor's fatal error was in seeking to control the entire Imperial Fleet personally, as completely and constantly as possible". The points that should be noted on this is
- The only source Thrawn had for information on any TP or Battle Meditation that the Emperor was using was the reports from the Battle of Endor, which he used to convince Palleon of Palpatine's influence (Palleon also citing his being present at the the Empire's defeat at the Battle of Endor also adds credence to the idea that the Emporer's influence, at least in that battle, was localized to that location). Every piece of evidence he cites can be explained by Palpatine using Battle Meditation to increase battle spirit and co-ordination. Even if Thrawn believed Palpatine was outright dominated the troops mind's we see from looking at the same body of evidence he had, with the benefit of extensive out of universe sources on the nature of Force powers that he is not privy to, that it can all be explained by Battle Meditation.
- Thrawn does not say that Palpatine controlled the Imperial Fleet completely or constantly, merely that he tried to. Whether or not Thrawn believed he succeeded is not stated.
- Control is not an absolute thing, it comes in degrees. Battle Meditation isn't an outright mind control ability but it is still a form of control, since it makes troops fight harder than they normally would.
- Thrawn was not differentiating between mind control and Battle Meditation because we can see that he aims to have C'baoth refrain from using Battle Meditation unless necessary, implying that it is overuse of Battle Meditation that he is warning against, not the outright mental control that you are suggesting.
And them not being loyal to Palpatine after his death is nonsense, given how they never even knew they were being mentally influenced in the first place.
If they were being controlled being actively controlled by Palpatine to be loyal, then when that stopped they should not remain loyal... if I'm being mind controlled to jump on the spot, them when that control vanishes, I should stop. The only change in the Imperial Navy that we are told about it a weakening of Battle resolve and ability, not some mass, spur of the moment switching of allegiances that one would expect if their loyalty was actually being affected by the Emperor. Whether or not they were aware of the control would be irrelevant.
Apparently you missed the parts where Palpatine was labelled "the cohesive force of the Empire," or somehow mistook the entire Galactic Empire for just the troops present at the Battle of Endor.
For the first time, the Death Star rocked. The collision with the exploding destroyer was only the beginning, leading to various systems breakdowns, which led to reactor meltdowns, which led to personnel panic, abandonment of posts, further malfunctions, and general chaos. Smoke was everywhere, substantial rumblings came from all directions at once, people were running and shouting. Electrical fires, steam explosions, cabin depressurizations, disruption of chain-of-command. Added to this, the continued bombardments by Rebel Cruisers—smelling fear in the enemy—merely heightened the sense of hysteria that was already pervasive. For the Emperor was dead. The central, powerful evil that had been the cohesive force to the Empire was gone; and when the dark side was this diffused, this nondirected—this was simply where it led.
Confusion.
Desperation.
Damp fear.
Return of the Jedi Novelization
With the Emperor dead, the central, powerful evil that had been the cohesive force of the Empire was gone. With the Dark Side diffused and undirected, the Imperials were left with nothing but confusion, desperation, and damp fear. The sudden loss of coordination and fighting spirit allowed Han Solo, Princess Leia and the Rebel Commandos to disable the shield generator.
Heir to the Empire Sourcebook
I should have thought it obvious that the Emperor was the cohesive force of the Empires, sans telepathy. For a variety of mundanely political and psychological reasons he would be considered such, his myriad dark side influences notwithstanding. Nowhere does it say that he was using telepathy on the Empire, and the only quantifiable difference his absence/death made on the immediate psychological performances of the Imperials present at the Battle of Endor, so yes, that still only applies to the Battle of Endor.
Only the first quote deals with Endor, but that is beside the point, which was to demonstrate the effects of Palpatine dying had on the soldiers, and just how complete the Emperor's domination was. Merely to enhance the coordination between troops would be adding to the base competency already present. What you imply by suggesting Palpatine's influence was nothing more than Battle Meditation is that the best soldiers in the Empire are always panicking, confused, desperate and fearful, even when they outgun the enemy ten to one, when operating without any Force-assisted coordination. I hope I don't need to tell you just how inane that sounds.
Thrawn outright says just that. In the same way troops that have their abilities enhanced by technological means becomes dependent on them to the extent that their baseline abilities atrophy, so too did the Imperials abilities atrophy due to an over-reliance on Sheev's Battle Meditation. Thrawn outright acknowledges that the Rebellion's warriors were superior for exactly this reason, and that he wanted to avoid overuse of C'baoth's Battle Meditation so that his own troops are not likewise enfeebled. By no means were they the best troops in the galaxy without the Emperor amping their resolve, it's even implied that Sheev intentionally built this weakness into the Empire to increase its dependency on him.
More nonsense, and apparent incapability to read, too. I mean, what does it take for a piece of text to directly state "he used [the dark side] to control his fleets" and for a person to interpret that as " it says nothing about controlling minds!"?
There are several force abilities that can be used to control a fleet, obviously Battle Meditation, but also mind control of people in positions of authority and precognition to direct them in battle. I don't see why your using this as evidence that Palp's is mind controlling the whole fleet, since it could mean a variety of things. If you want to use it as evidence of him using Mind Control you'll have to find explicit confirmation.
And no, Palpatine's will holding the Empire together isn't hyperbole. There are mountains of evidence of it being literal, including other quotes that you ridiculously interpret as mere Battle Meditation, as well as a direct example of what happened immediately after the Emperor died: the Empire disintegrated faster than even the Rebel strategists had suspected, which is saying something.
Perhaps there might be that I haven't seen, but so far you haven't presenting anything close.
The Empire disintegrated but Palpatine designed it to in a variety of political and force based ways, as per the quote that you presented. As per TP, the only affects his death had was a weak military reliant on Battle Meditation and that some of his politicians presumably were now free to switch allegiances. The rest were not to do with TP.
Apparently you have no clue on how the Drain Life ability even works, if you equate it to a nexus amp. The powers you gain from it are permanently added to your initial power level, so even if he was boosting his power with the colonists' life force, it wouldn't change a thing. He would always have access to the power he gained from draining them. It's forever a part of him.
There are many different drain based abilities. Also, I've seen you claim that draining abilities afford a permanent amp before, but I've never seen any proof of this? Care to provide one? I've seen Kreia explain Drain as being essentially the inverse of force healing, which isn't a permanent amp, so I have until now assumed the amp was typically temporary.
And no, Palpatine actively drained and dominated them. It wasn't the nexus. What even is your proof for that?
Almost mindless under the oppression of the Emperor's dark side influence, the people of Byss find their life energies constantly leeched off during the Emperor's vile machinations.
Byss and the Deep Core
Imperial ships ferried millions of immigrants to the planet Byss, where the Emperor fed off their life energies through the dark side.
The New Essential Guide to Characters
After choosing Byss as his resort world, Palpatine lured eager nobles to the planet—then used his dark powers to enslave its people, channeling their life energies for use in his own vile experiments within the fell Imperial Citadel.
The Essential Atlas
This is where the Emperor’s Dark Side skill comes into play. Just as he can siphon off the vital life force of his subjects on Byss, he can will his own personality, his very life, into a waiting receptacle body.
Dark Empire Sourcebook
Nowhere does that state active TP'ing/draining, and since we know Palpatine had decades of prep, outside assitance and IIRC rituals to do what he did on Byss (as well as the fact that originally only millions settled on Byss, implying that the Emperor had to incrementally increase the amount he was draining up to twenty billion since he needed the power from the previous batch of settlers to drain the consecutive one), I find it unreasonable for you to assume it is. And remember, in my opinion saying that the nexus did it on it's own (since we know even regular nexus's have passive mental and physical effects) due to his designing it that way is actually much more generous to him, since Palpatine wouldn't be basically featless post-Byss.
Also of note is that I have heard that Byss apparently remained loyal (I don't have quotes of this right now) after the Emperor's death, implying that the nexus was what enslaved their wills. Since he couldn't maintain any influence over the Imperial Fleets post-death, he would surely not have been able to maintain any influence over Byss, therefore it must have been the nexus.
Saying that he used the power to fuel experiments doesn't mean he used it exclusively for that purpose. I use some of my income to buy toilet paper, I don't spend all of it buying toilet paper.
Your only valid point so far.
Thank you.
Also, even if Palps didn't use the energies he got draining the inhabitants to TP them, the inhabitants themselves still got weaker, so relative to them he was still amped.
What are you even saying here?
People who have been drained are weaker in the Force/physically/mentally, so using telepathy on them would be easier. I should have said that those people were easier to TP (nerfed TP resistance) than your typical fodder, since they had been drained. Like if I fought a sick guy, technically I'm not amped, but since that guy is weakened, relative to him I am amped.
Palpatine was shown that he was still trying to make himself more powerful, it is mentioned that that's what he did between RotJ and DE - study the force to become more powerful. Also, he could just take a new body if he wore out a body too quickly. So I don't buy at all that he would forgo power if he had access to it. And just because he used part of its power to sustain himself doesn't mean he didn't use it for other things, he could simply have been doing both.
Yes, all of this is true after the events of Return of the Jedi, but we are discussing his Byss feat many years prior to it, are we not? He didn't have clone bodies to which project himself to after dying then, so if his goal was eternal life, using the drained life force to increase his power would directly go against that goal. Occam's razor would thus have it that he didn't increase his power with the life force he drained.
Actually, I've never really understood why people ever used Occam's razor on the Battle Forums, except for the most trivial of details. I believe that our reliance on feats is because the underline philosophy on the Battle Forums is that of empiricism, we can only claim what we can actually prove, and that the standard position to take is that of rigorous lowballing. That's why I want explicit confirmation of your claims, since the burden of proof to all your claims lies with you, I don't actually have to prove Sheev does not have any of these feats (he might well have even better ones off-screen), I just have to undermine the argument that he does.
Since we have no exact date Palpatine actually started having clones in reserve, that means that we can't assume he didn't have clones already when he started messing around with Byss. The burden of proof is on you to prove that he didn't have clones when he got his hands on Byss, if you want to start claiming he forewent any personal amps. Regardless of whether you can or not, the fact remains that Palpatine was using their energies to preserve his life, which is either an amp since he doesn't have to use his personal reserves to achieve that feat at best or at worst meaning that he would be dead in his original body. Also there are indication that Palpatine's powers grew across all his character's history from TPM to ROTS to ROTJ to DE, so you'll have to explain why he didn't halt his growth intentionally if you believe this "Palpatine wanted to keep himself weaker since he didn't want to age" arguments.
One more thing, the dark side is still a net boon to a user, Plagueis even says something along the lines of its absence being more debilitating than it's aging cost to apprentice Sidious. An increase in power may amp his deterioration but it also increases his ability to slow it - and there is no proof that the ratio of the former is greater than the latter.
Finally, the amount of dark side power that he was using to drain and TP the inhabitants is not actually increased if he was using the energy he got from draining them in the effort. He'd still be channeling the same amount regardless of where he got it from.
What are even is your point here?
You said that Palpatine would avoid channeling excess amounts of the dark side since it increased his physical deterioration, I pointed out that the amount he is actually channeling is actually unchanged by where he got the energy from. If I power a jog from reserves of fat I have stored in my body or through power I acquired externally, like a candy bar, I am still expending the same amount of energy regardless of its source. TP'ing under his own power affords no advantage to TP'ing under the power of the Byss population's.
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