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Posted by WollfMyth209 (10917 posts) - - Show Bio

Before I start, I'd like to credit @lordofthelight for bringing a lot of the stuff on this blog to my attention in our PM and for inspiring me to make the blog in the first place.

No Caption Provided

There's a lot of users on the forums who have shamelessly tried to wank Exar Kun or lowball Luke Skywalker through the two's "fight". However, a lot of people forget the circumstances of said fight, which I'll explain in this blog. The rundown of the circumstances is:

  • The emotional state of Luke Skywalker
  • The Dark Side Nexus
  • The Inclusion of Kyp Durron

Skywalker's emotional state

Primarily, let's look at the emotional disbalance Luke was experiencing during the entire storyline of The Dark Apprentice. He's plagued by nightmares, he's lost a friend and a student, he's realizing Kyp Durron's turning to the Dark Side and he's not willing to hurt Kyp at all. So already, his emotions are getting the better of him; a common theme in Star Wars is, of course, that one's mental fortitude is everything, it leads to better control over the Force and better utilization of your powers. There's plenty of examples for why an emotional confliction can be a severe hinderence throughout the mythos, ironically a lot of them are connected to the Skywalker family: Anakin, Jacen, Leia and, yes, even Luke have all had a lot of personal issues and this is something Luke hasn't gotten rid of until a good several years after his fight with Exar Kun; In Visions of the Future(more than five years after their bout) Luke is holding a mental burden:

For a long moment Mara gazed coolly at him, and Luke felt a sudden wave of misgiving ripple through his anger. "Such as?" Mara repeated. "Well, let's see.

Such as not moving your Jedi academy off Yavin when you first found out a really nasty dark side power was infesting the place. Such as not slapping down a tipped turbolaser like Kyp Durron the minute he started showing dark side tendencies of his own. Such as not providing adequate protection for your sister's children against kidnapping, despite the fact it had already been tried a couple of times. Such as unilaterally declaring yourself a Jedi Master after less than ten years on the job. How long a list do you want?"

Luke tried to glare at her. But there was no strength behind the glare, and with a grimace of embarrassment he dropped his gaze from her face. "You're right," he sighed. "You're absolutely right. I don't know, Mara. It's been... I don't know."

"Let me guess," she said, the sarcasm gone from her voice again. "Life as a Jedi has been a lot foggier than you ever expected it to be. You've had trouble understanding what you're supposed to do, or how you're supposed to behave. You've been gaining tremendous power in the Force, but more often than not you've been paralyzed with fear that you're going to use it the wrong way. Am I getting warm?"

Luke stared at her. "Yes," he said, not quite believing it. How had she known? "That's it exactly."

Visions of the Future

Keep in mind, this is a much more controlled and mature Luke than the one we see in Jedi Academy, on top of that, there's been plenty of traumatic experience throughout the JA trilogy that would've only hindered Luke further:

Luke felt a devastating emptiness, knowing that he had lost another of his Jedi students forever.

[...]

Luke Skywalker awoke from another series of nightmares. He sat bolt upright on his pallet, instantly aware. He had felt a great disturbance in the Force. Something was not right.

[...]

With trembling hands and a deep-seated dread in his heart, Luke reached to his side and wrapped his hand around the slick handle of his lightsaber.

[...]

"Don't make me do this," Luke said, raising his lightsaber, but unsure what to do. He couldn't just cut down his student, who stood unarmed at the top of the temple.

[...]

Trying to control his growing fear, Luke felt a sudden brush of cold behind him.

Dark Apprentice

He's going to be in the same, if not an even worse state, than Anakin was during his duel with Obi-Wan. This is a major contributing factor. Moving on...

The Dark Side Nexus

It's no secret that Yavin IV is a powerful Force nexus, in fact it's been noted as being "one of the Force's favourite fulcrums":

Yavin 4 is a jungle moon in an unremarkable system far from busy space lanes. Yet if the Force has a will, Yavin 4 must be one of its favourite fulcrums.

The Essential Atlas

Particularly, it's a Dark Side nexus, who's major focal points are locked away in the Temples(where Luke and Exar/Kyp had fought):

In the final years of his life, Sadow and his Sith followers began to build huge temples, powerful focal points for the dark side of the Force.

The Official Star Wars Fact File #15

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In fact, it was this dark energy that led Exar Kun to Yavin IV in the first place:

Angry and impatient with his Jedi Masters, he[Exar Kun] was drawn to Yavin 4 by the powerful forces focused in Sadow's temples.

The Official Star Wars Fact File #15

And what makes it even worse for Luke is that the "tremendous power" concentrated within the Temples grows even greater whenever Sith artifacts are used within it. When a simple Massassi priest used Naga Sadow's amulets, the dark energy grew more powerful within his vicinity:

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I would imagine one of the most powerful Jedi in history, aided by the spirit of one of the most powerful Sith Lords, would use the amulets much more effectively than a chanting, mutated Massassi Priest. Hence, an already powerful Dark Side nexus that was amplifying Exar Kun and Kyp Durron is now further amping them, whilst further hindering Luke and the use of the amulet gives Durron an additional boost.

So there's yet another crucial circumstance that leaves Luke practically helpless, while ramping up Kyp and Kun through external means.

The Inclusion of Kyp Durron

One of the many things people either willfully or ignorantly forget about Luke's fight with with Exar Kun and Kyp Durron is that it was Exar Kun's techniques that were used, not his power. The power was provided by the Dark Side Nexus, the ancient Sith amulets(which further increased the nexus' potency) and Kyp Durron himself:

Against the full might of Kyp Durron and the forbidden weapons of the long-dead spirit of Exar Kun, even a Jedi Master such as Luke Skywalker could not prevail.

Dark Apprentice

It's Kyp's might, not Exar Kun's, that's the real clincher here. Said might is dramatically boosted by several factors; I already explained why the nexus and the amulets create an incredible difference, but then there's Exar Kun further "boosting" Durron's talents:

Ultimately, [Exar Kun] has Kyp return to Yavin Four and helps him reclaim the Sun Crusher. He also bolsters Kyp's talents to allow him to defeat Luke and place him in a coma.

Jedi Academy Sourcebook

On top of that, Exar did in fact not just amplify Kyp further, but also joined in with his own attack:

With the Sun Crusher looming behind him, Kyp stretched out both hands and blasted Luke with lightning bolts like black cracks in the Force. Dark tendrils rose up from gaps in the temple flagstones, fanged, illusory vipers that struck at him from all sides.

Luke cried out and tried to strike back, but the shadow of Exar Kun joined the attack, adding more deadly force. The ancient Dark Lord of the Sith lashed out with waves of blackness, driving long icicles of frozen poison into Luke's body.

Dark Apprentice

So essentially a hindered, holding back, emotionally conflicted Luke is fighting two exceptionally powerful Force users, both of whom are being amplified by several, tremendous external sources of energy. And the best part is: neither the tendrils nor the lightning ever effectively caused any physical harm to Luke, indicating his paltry Force shields actually withstood a good deal of the assault and Kun only succeeded in ripping his astral self out of his body:

It had been a week since the trainees at the Jedi academy had found Luke Skywalker's motionless body atop the temple. They had brought him inside, done their best to care for him-but they did not know what to do. The best New Republic medics had found no physical damage. They agreed that Luke still lived, but he lay in complete stasis. He responded to none of their tests or probes.

[...]

Cilghal hesitated, then moved to stare down at Luke. "Master Skywalker told me I have an innate talent for healing with the Force. He had just begun to show me how to develop my skills - but I've tried all I know. He is not sick. There's nothing physically wrong with him. He seems frozen in a moment of time, as if his soul has left and his body is waiting for him to come back."

Champions of the Force

Conclusion

To conclude: Luke is actually confirmed to be more powerful than Exar Kun in a direct confrontation:

To his surprise, Kun recognizes the leader to be the same man that visited Yavin Four years earlier, more powerful in the force. Too powerful for the moment for Kun to handle.

Jedi Academy Sourcebook

Not to mention, when Luke and Exar were both mere spirits and were caught in a brief power-struggle, Luke practically one-shotted him:

Luke rounded on him, still not knowing how to fight this intangible enemy. Exar Kun laughed, as if an idea had just occurred to him. "I came to you first in a dream disguised as your fallen father, Skywalker... perhaps I should appear to them in your own form. They will certainly follow the teachings of the Sith if the words come from your mouth."

"No!" Luke said. With his astral body he leaped to tackle the shimmering silhouette of the Sith lord. But though his sparkling body passed smoothly through the shadow, Exar Kun did seem to discorporate momentarily.

Luke felt a spear of ice plunge through his core as he touched Kun, but he stood firm while the Dark Lord reeled against the stone wall, seeping back into the cracks to escape.

"I've already been tempered by the dark side," Luke said. "I came out stronger. You are weak because you know only the evil teachings. Your understanding is no greater than that of my apprentices."

Champions of the Force

And keep in mind that this Exar Kun siphoned some of Kyp's energies for himself and was also amplified by the Temple's nexus, which would've hindered Luke's spirit. In a fair, direct, one-on-one fight, Luke has been presented as the clear superior.

The only real reasons Exar could've done what he had done to him are the ones I've listed above. To recap:

  • Multiple external amplifications
  • Luke was emotionally conflicted and hardly at his best
  • It was primarily Kyp's amplified power that damaged Luke, not so much Kun's
  • In a direct confrontation on a neutral playing field, Luke came out on top

I hope this sheds some light on the fight. Thanks for reading.

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#2 Posted by Greysentinel365 (1111 posts) - - Show Bio

While I'm just taking a pause while reading through. This quote

Yavin 4 is a jungle moon in an unremarkable system far from busy space lanes. Yet if the Force has a will, Yavin 4 must be one of its favourite fulcrums.

The Essential Atlas

I don't think is referring to the nexus, more the number of galaxy affecting events that have occurred there (Death Star, Kun's End, New Jedi Temple, Jedi enclave in Legacy etc etc.)

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#3 Posted by WollfMyth209 (10917 posts) - - Show Bio

While I'm just taking a pause while reading through. This quote

Yavin 4 is a jungle moon in an unremarkable system far from busy space lanes. Yet if the Force has a will, Yavin 4 must be one of its favourite fulcrums.

The Essential Atlas

I don't think is referring to the nexus, more the number of galaxy affecting events that have occurred there (Death Star, Kun's End, New Jedi Temple, Jedi enclave in Legacy etc etc.)

Hmm, it's possible, I suppose. There's still quotes that directly state the Temples on Yavin are DS nexuses so it doesn't change much.

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#4 Posted by LordOfTheLight (1036 posts) - - Show Bio

Nice. You are one of the best bloggers here, so obviously I hired you to do my work :).

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#5 Posted by Greysentinel365 (1111 posts) - - Show Bio

Okay done. I agree. Two things.

One thing I still disagree with is Kun's tendrils being assumed to be the same as Zannah's. The details and purpose of them seem to far off to be the same ability.

Second, prior to Kun and Kyp's attack Luke did take the time put up a dedicated defense with all of his power

Luke dropped his useless lightsaber and crouched. His every muscle suddenly coiled and tensed. He rallied all the powers of the Force around him, seeking any defensive tactic.

Dark Apprentice

While Luke's state would prevent from taking decisive action in an offensive way I fail to see how it would affect his defensive.

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#6 Posted by Greysentinel365 (1111 posts) - - Show Bio

@wollfmyth209: If I may assist. Didn't the destruction of the Death Star create a massive amount of DS energy in the system?

That would effectively counter the weakening the nexus would suffer over time like Korriban

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#7 Posted by Azronger (2010 posts) - - Show Bio

@wollfmyth209:

Good blog, although I'll adress one thing: The use of amulets doesn't increase the potency of the nexus; it just increases the amount of dark side energy that's in the Temple. At least that's how I interpret it.

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#8 Edited by LordOfTheLight (1036 posts) - - Show Bio

Also, you should add that Luke suffers from emotional problems just post DE due to his willful dabbling in the dark side, as he and Mara agree on in Visions of the Future, it colored everything he did after that, and he begins to be free of this, a few months before VoTF;

"Good. It was supposed to." Mara took a deep breath, and Luke could sense her reluctance. "Look, you're the one in the middle of this. You're the one who has to make the final call on what's going on. But if you want my reading, it all started with that little jaunt you took out to Byss about nine years ago. Where you faced?whatever it was you faced out there."

Luke shivered. "The reborn Emperor."

"Or whatever," Mara said with an odd touch of impatience. "Personally, I'm not convinced it was really him. But that's beside the point. The point was that you decided?stupidly and rather arrogantly, in my opinion?that the best way to stop him would be for you to pretend to join up and let him teach you some of his dark side techniques."

"But I didn't really go over to the dark side," Luke protested, trying to remember those dark days. "I mean, I don't think I did."

Mara shook her head. "Debatable; but it almost doesn't matter. One way or the other, you still willingly dabbled in it. And from that point on, it colored everything you did."

One of Master Yoda's pronouncements floated up from his memory. If once you start down the dark path, his old teacher had warned, forever will it dominate your destiny. "It did, too, didn't it?" he murmured, half to himself, as all the errors and mistakes and, yes, the arrogance of the past nine years rose accusingly before his eyes. "What was I thinking?"

Credit: Visions of the Future

@greysentinel365

Any force abilities, be it offensive or defensive will be affected by that as Luke reflects and agrees upon.

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#9 Posted by WollfMyth209 (10917 posts) - - Show Bio

Nice. You are one of the best bloggers here, so obviously I hired you to do my work :).

Hehe, thanks.

Okay done. I agree. Two things.

One thing I still disagree with is Kun's tendrils being assumed to be the same as Zannah's. The details and purpose of them seem to far off to be the same ability.

Second, prior to Kun and Kyp's attack Luke did take the time put up a dedicated defense with all of his power

While Luke's state would prevent from taking decisive action in an offensive way I fail to see how it would affect his defensive.

Thanks, but to address your points:

  1. I never said Kun's tendrils are the same as Zannah's, but they clearly also attack his physical body, much like they do his soul
  2. Luke is still an emotional mess and hindered by an extremely powerful DS nexus so even with his defense, he's not really at his best, and I did note that he put up a defense which negated any long-lasting damaging, physical effects from the lightning and tendrils, which is damn impressive

If I may assist. Didn't the destruction of the Death Star create a massive amount of DS energy in the system?

That would effectively counter the weakening the nexus would suffer over time like Korriban

Do you have a quote? 'Cause that'd be awesome. :)

@azronger said:

Good blog, although I'll adress one thing: The use of amulets doesn't increase the potency of the nexus; it just increases the amount of dark side energy that's in the Temple. At least that's how I interpret it.

Said Dark Side energy is what Kyp Durron and Exar Kun are drawing from, so it still kinda aids my point. Thanks, though. :3

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#10 Edited by Emperor339 (1855 posts) - - Show Bio

Nice.

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#11 Posted by WollfMyth209 (10917 posts) - - Show Bio
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#12 Edited by Zapan871 (1332 posts) - - Show Bio

Good. Now, just to add some insult to injury:

"The dark side permeates everything here. Saturates it. I've been to Oricon, this is another level entirely."

-- The Old Republic: Shadow of Revan

Located in an unremarkable system well off the Hydian Way, Oricon seems an almost arbitrary choice for the Dread Masters’ home. But anyone with an affinity for the Force can sense that the rocky Outer Rim moon is immeasurably strong with the dark side.

-- The Old Republic: Codex Entry: Oricon

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#13 Posted by WollfMyth209 (10917 posts) - - Show Bio
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#14 Posted by DarthDuelist9 (1395 posts) - - Show Bio

Good blog Wollf as usual :)

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#15 Posted by WollfMyth209 (10917 posts) - - Show Bio
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#16 Posted by EmperorxHadesx420 (1986 posts) - - Show Bio

Damn, my fave SW guy..

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#17 Posted by WollfMyth209 (10917 posts) - - Show Bio
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#18 Posted by EmperorxHadesx420 (1986 posts) - - Show Bio

@wollfmyth209: You bro. You know your shit. Do you have a top 10 most powerful Sith list??

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#19 Posted by WollfMyth209 (10917 posts) - - Show Bio

@emperorxhadesx420: You bro. You know your shit.

Awww, thanks. I ain't even the best there is, tho.

Do you have a top 10 most powerful Sith list??

Hmm, that list keeps changing; one thing I can tell you, though, is that the top 3 will never change:

  1. Sidious
  2. Plagueis
  3. Valkorion

After that you have all these dudes: Caedus, Krayt, Nihilus, Vader, Exar, Tyranus, Tenebrous, and a bunch of others who could all be on the top 10 list, I just dunno in what order exactly.

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#20 Posted by YousufKhan1212 (1469 posts) - - Show Bio

This is lovely. The Exar Kun wank was already awful.

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#21 Posted by LordOfTheLight (1036 posts) - - Show Bio

Hmm. My top 10 list would be something like:

1. Sidious

2. Plagueis

3. Valkorion/Vitiate at his prime

4. Tenebrous

5. Nihilus

6. Caedus

7. Krayt

8. Vader

9. Kun

10. Dooku

People like Nadd, Muur, Ragnos, Traya, Nox, etc. would follow. 3 and 4 can be interchanged, depending on interpretation. Seems fairly consistent with their overall portrayal.

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#22 Posted by noobsnowman (2615 posts) - - Show Bio

Good work.

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#23 Posted by WollfMyth209 (10917 posts) - - Show Bio

This is lovely. The Exar Kun wank was already awful.

Good work.

Thanks guys.

Hmm. My top 10 list would be something like:

1. Sidious

2. Plagueis

3. Valkorion/Vitiate at his prime

4. Tenebrous

5. Nihilus

6. Caedus

7. Krayt

8. Vader

9. Kun

10. Dooku

People like Nadd, Muur, Ragnos, Traya, Nox, etc. would follow. 3 and 4 can be interchanged, depending on interpretation. Seems fairly consistent with their overall portrayal.

Fascinating list; and I actually agree for the most part. :up:

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#24 Posted by AmethystGravity (1620 posts) - - Show Bio

Fascinating! To be honest, this does clear up a lot about what I've heard of Kun, since I haven't read much of NJO.

And this was a cool read, too!

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#25 Posted by EmperorxHadesx420 (1986 posts) - - Show Bio

@wollfmyth209: Ohh don't doubt yourself. I always felt Nova was condescending and kind of rude. And the others are Meh.

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#26 Posted by SithRevenant (524 posts) - - Show Bio

My retort:

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=16147850#post16147850

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#27 Posted by Necromancer76 (557 posts) - - Show Bio

I agree. Exar Kun is barely in the Top 10 Sith, while Luke at this point can beat pretty much all of them.

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#28 Posted by LordOfTheLight (1036 posts) - - Show Bio

Luke's "power" would have been largely diminished, not his knowledge or the techniques that he sought. He may have sought out techniques to defend himself, that doesn't change the fact that he would have been able to channel only a point fraction of the power that he could into those techniques.

Even Anakin Skywalker gave it his all when fighting Obi Wan being in a murderous state of rage, and that doesn't change the fact that even his best wasn't enough, because he was in no mental state to effectively channel that power and make the best use of it. Evidently, Luke would have been in a worse state, because Anakin was in a state of anger, and anger fuels the dark side, but Luke was paralyzed with fear. Th difference is going from a Dooku decimating state, to an Obi Wan state. One can understand that the difference it would have made for Luke would be massive.

You've had trouble understanding what you're supposed to do, or how you're supposed to behave. You've been gaining tremendous power in the Force, but more often than not you've been paralyzed with fear that you're going to use it the wrong way. Am I getting warm?"

Luke stared at her. "Yes," he said, not quite believing it. How had she known? "That's it exactly."

Credit: Visions of the Future

There is no getting around this. It's fact.

And honestly, that's why I don't go to KMC. Infinite lol's at Kun stomping Vader.

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#29 Posted by Necromancer76 (557 posts) - - Show Bio
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#30 Posted by Django_F3tt (47 posts) - - Show Bio

@wollfmyth209: dude, nicely done, it's about time someone put together an argument for this. The fact that your points reinforce each other as well is the icing on the cake.

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#31 Posted by WollfMyth209 (10917 posts) - - Show Bio

Fascinating! To be honest, this does clear up a lot about what I've heard of Kun, since I haven't read much of NJO.

And this was a cool read, too!

Thank you.

I agree. Exar Kun is barely in the Top 10 Sith, while Luke at this point can beat pretty much all of them.

Meh, he could be in the Top 10 Sith, honestly.

dude, nicely done, it's about time someone put together an argument for this. The fact that your points reinforce each other as well is the icing on the cake.

Thank you. :)

Where's Revan :(

Do you consider SoR Revan a Dark Sider? Because Darth Revan ain't in the top 10, tbh.

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#32 Posted by ShootingNova (25157 posts) - - Show Bio

Good job.

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#33 Posted by LordOfTheLight (1036 posts) - - Show Bio

@necromancer76

SoR Revan isn't a Sith, since Reborn Revan was a Jedi Master and he didn't change ranks after that. I hold him as a dark-side Jedi, kind of like Joruus C'Baoth. Reborn Revan comes into the top 10 Jedi list. If I had to compare SoR Revan to the Sith list, I'd say he is a rough equal to Krayt, and just slightly inferior to Caedus.

Also, Kun does come into the top 10 list. My main argument was against the notion that Kun can enter a fight with Sidious and not get wrecked.

@wollfmyth209

Completely forgot about Maul, Sadow and Bane. The 11-15 list would be something like:

11. Nadd

12. Muur

13. Maul

14. Ragnos

15. Bane

Darth Revan, Naga Sadow and the others follow. Though, Darth Revan could very well be superior to Bane depending on interpretation, as Jedi Revan( 1st iteration as a Jedi) is superior to Jedi Kun.

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#34 Edited by Necromancer76 (557 posts) - - Show Bio

@wollfmyth209: SoR Revan is essentially a Sith. He's pure dark side energy and uses dark side powers.

And for me personally, I include anyone as Sith if they were ever Sith at some point. Vestara Khai for example went from Sith to Jedi to Sith to bounty hunter.

My top 10 would go something like:

1. Darth Sidious

2. Darth Plagueis

3. Vitiate/Valkorion

4. Sarasu Taalon

5. Revan (prime)

6. Darth Nihilus

7. Darth Caedus

8. Darth Tenebrous

9. Exar Kun

10. Darth Krayt

Followed by Darth Venamis, Darth Vader, and Count Dooku. Caedus may move up depending on the respect thread that is coming.

And yes I agree DARTH Revan isn't in the top 10.

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#35 Posted by Necromancer76 (557 posts) - - Show Bio

@lordofthelight: For me personally, I include everyone who has ever been a Sith at one point to be Sith. Darth Maul for example wasn't Sith after he was cut in half, but his feats in TCW still apply when I rank him.

I don't include any Sith from Freedon Nadd to further in the past because they mostly lack feats. 10 of the most powerful of the Ancient Sith were definitely:

Ajunta Pall, Karness Muur, Sorzus Syn, Darth Andeddu, Tulak Hord, Aloysius Kallig, Marka Ragnos, Naga Sadow, Ludo Kressh, and Freedon Nadd.

And I agree Kun is IN the top 10. He's just close to being out of the 10.

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#36 Posted by WollfMyth209 (10917 posts) - - Show Bio

Good job.

Thanks.

SoR Revan is essentially a Sith. He's pure dark side energy and uses dark side powers.

And for me personally, I include anyone as Sith if they were ever Sith at some point. Vestara Khai for example went from Sith to Jedi to Sith to bounty hunter.

My top 10 would go something like:

1. Darth Sidious

2. Darth Plagueis

3. Vitiate/Valkorion

4. Sarasu Taalon

5. Revan (prime)

6. Darth Nihilus

7. Darth Caedus

8. Darth Tenebrous

9. Exar Kun

10. Darth Krayt

Followed by Darth Venamis, Darth Vader, and Count Dooku. Caedus may move up depending on the respect thread that is coming.

And yes I agree DARTH Revan isn't in the top 10.

I doubt there's that big of a gap between Tenebrous and Plagueis, that'd be filled up by five other Sith.

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#37 Posted by Necromancer76 (557 posts) - - Show Bio

@wollfmyth209: Here's my reasoning:

First off, I understand scaling. I have Darth Vectivus above Darth Maul and Darth Malgus. That's also why Tenebrous is as high as he is. However, I have reasons for him being worse than the 5 Sith separating him from Plagueis:

Vitiate/Valkorion: He's possessed an entire planet, destroyed ships with lightning, survived death, etc. It's fair to place him above Tenebrous.

Sarasu Taalon: He contested with Luke. As a matter of fact, he almost beat him. Enough said.

Revan: See below.

Darth Nihilus: He's drained planets, manipulated ships via TK, disintegrated people, etc. I'd say he could beat Tenebrous. And Revan is canonically greater than Nihilus.

Darth Caedus: I still have yet to choose between if he can beat Revan or not, so I put him just below.

The gap between Sarasu Taalon and Revan is quite large, but Revan, Nihilus, Caedus, and Tenebrous are all very close together. There's no way Revan, Nihilus, or Caedus could beat Tenebrous easily. I just think that, with the feats and abilities shown to us, he's just barely below these 3, and Taalon and Vitiate both can contend with Plagueis.

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#38 Posted by AIartificalintelligence (179 posts) - - Show Bio

Noice

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#39 Posted by WollfMyth209 (10917 posts) - - Show Bio
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