(Legends) Which SW characters have the greatest potential in the force in your opinion?

Your top 5 characters with the greatest potential in the force, you can't put any Skywalkers on your list.

Callouts:

@void_reborn, @lord_tenebrous, @theoverdaddy, @thebluedragon20,@nebulous_storm: @greysentinel365@w4nkdestroyer@kirkseven@lord_tenebrous

It's all a mess.

Starkiller

No Skywalkers.

Maul- at such a young age, he was already nearly as powerful as the likes of Dooku and other force users that have training for decades. Problem is, after his defeat by Obi, he kind of stagnated. If he had more time, he could have become very strong

Ventress/Savage- just like maul, hey we're relatively young and far less trained, yet we're on the way to becoming very powerful

Yoda- self explanatory, we see him at the peak of his power and he is one of the most powerful,and with no outside help/artifacts/dark side usage

Sidious- same as yoda

@lord_tenebrous:

Maybe but there are some pretty obvious ones like

Maul whom Palpatine thought of as a genuine apprentice.

Palpatine, Starkiller, and Yoda are all self-explanatory.

Windu is decades younger than Dooku and Yoda but was still able to rival them pre-TPM.

Savage, Ventress, Revan, Kyp Durron etc.

@donloota:

I suppose. But nearly every main character is somehow an unprecedented prodigy with unimaginable growth rates.

@w4nkdestroyer2

your thoughts?

In raw potential, off the top of my head I’d say:

1. Kyp (potential to rival GM Luke)

2. Palpatine (potential to be more powerful than any ROT Sith and matched/surpassed Yoda is far less time

3. Valkorian (crazy power from a young age)

4. Vaylin (offspring of Valkorian, inherited his crazy power)

5. Yoda (said to have the highest midichlorian count on record at the time bar Anakin)

But there are a lot of other characters who could also be up there such as Starkiller, Revan, Maul, Windu, Savage etc. It’s kinda hard to judge.

Here is my list. In a particular order btw, and excluding entities such as the Ones or Abeloth or even Sarasu Taalon because he is too hard to rank etc.
1. Maul. As a genuine apprentice of Sidious, his potential is to surpass Sidious. This should already puts him above others.

2. Vaylin. Definitely. If Vaylin has full training, she should be massively more powerful than Valk. She is already a thread to Valk chained and she is already above Arcann in the force. Unchained and her force power is above Vader. If she receives good enough training, she should be TPM Sidious level or maybe above.

3. Sidious: Except for Maul and Vaylin, I doubt anybody else will have the potential to surpass Sidious. Even if we infer that DE Sidious is prime Sidious, I doubt even FP Ventress or FP SK can beat DE Palps

4. Valkorion: Same as above. Even if we already know his prime, he should still be above the others

5. Yoda: Same as above

6. Ventress. I mean, her potential is to be a thread to Palpatine with Dooku. Now obviously, Starkiller is also a major threat with Vader, but since I have Vader above Dooku, I will also argue that Ventress FP is above SK

7. SK: From the above logic, it is easy to see that the next on my list is going to be Starkiller. His potential is to be a big threat to Sidious with Vader. Now, obviously, by feats, he is above Ventress, but with Potential, I feel like he is slightly below

8. Kyp Durron / Revan. I can't decide between them, so I'm gonna have them both in here.

Kyp: Kyp is already one of the most powerful force users ever. Now, this doesn't translate to potential, but his already impressive raw power shows his as being absolutely powerful. If he actually reach his full potential, he might be GM Luke level. Unfortunately, we have no direct evidence of his potential so we definitely cannot say, but with his already mastery of the force, we can infer that him at full power is reasonably

Revan: we have no idea what FP Revan might be like, but if it is an SoR Revan with his balance of the force amp, it is safe it imply he might be around FP Kyp / FP SK level

9. Savage: Savage's rage amp shows his force potential. Him easily ragdolling Dooku / Ventress shows great potential for him. Not to mention, he is the only one confirmed to be growing by a large amount by the day he died.

Starkiller>>Sidious>Yoda>Valkorion>Kyp

Sidious even exalted Starkiller as a potential equal to him, it's likely that Sidious would have even gone as far as to proclaim him a potential superior to him after that force clash with him in the light side ending.

Its not a typo. I didn't say full potential Vaylin is above Full potential Sidious, just TPM Sidious

for once our list is so similar man...

Not at all. Vaylin is stated not only as a major threat to Valk, she has like unlimited potential. If she is trained properly and not chained, then her power will definitely be above Valkorion

Oh wait yeah, I just realized. oops...

Anakin of course had more potential than the likes of Luke/Starkiller but he never achieved it. What this quote does show is that both of them had the potential to surpass any Force user ( Valkorion, Sidious, etc. ) that had ever existed up to that point in time which of course Luke went on to do.

Kyp Durron, Galen Marek, Sheev Palpatine, Valkorion, Baby Yoda

Is Rey still a Skywalker?

@iknowwhoyouare:

Well, I guess you could say she is but this is a legends thread so she wouldn't be on anyone's list.

bump.

what did Baby Yoda do to suggest high potential?

Kyp Durron and Anakin Solo have more potential than Anakin Skywalker

Potential is active since day 0 and they grow in power from growing physically

Actually Jacen and Jaina also do too

But they are all dwarfed by Vaylin who could move furniture while in the womb

It's probably Vaylin first

Feats first SW VS debates https://discord.gg/uFDQNCZqc4

1. Sidious.

2. Outlander.

3. Valkorion.

4. Vaylin.

5. Kyp Durron.

In No particular order (I'm also steering away from super popular characters, RPG protagonists, and anyone that shows up in the 6 movies):

• Kyp Durron
• Jaden Korr
• Vaylin
• Galen Marek
• Kyle Katarn

Judging by dark empire, sidious probably reached his 'midichlorian' peak long ago, but just keeps eclipsing it and getting even more powerful through unnatural means. e.g. Valkorion's plan to absorb the entire galaxy's population and become a god, Palpatine's plan in the Tarkin novel to bind his soul to the galaxy and reshape reality according to his whim. He also stated in his books that his mastery of force storms would eventually become powerful enough to completely supplant all superweapons.

@hellothere5432: The quotes you're referring to discuss pre-boost Sidious, not post-boost.

George Lucas: ''After Darth Sidious' first apprentice is killed, he has to come up with a new apprentice, and rather than coming up with some baby that he trains from birth, which is what he should have done --well, he shouldn't have gotten himself in a position of getting his apprentice killed anyways-- he's decided to make his move, so he needs somebody that was already trained.''

Source: AOTC DVD Commentary

Nothing about this says Maul is comparable to Sidious in potential, just so you know.

''The man who had taken the young Maul from a backwater planet and raised him to be his successor. He owed Darth Sidious everything.''

Source: Darth Maul - Shadow Hunter (2001)

-

''For all Darth Sidious’s talk of his role as his apprentice and eventual successor, Maul still felt precious little connection to the Sith grand plan for the galaxy and his place within it.

Source: Maul - Lockdown (2013)

This is Maul's perspective. Sidious never told him he didn't want a successor because he was manipulating him:

As for the last quote, this is Sidious goading Maul on to improve. He did something similar with Vader:

Powered by treachery, the Sith Master-apprentice relationship was always a dangerous game. Trust was encouraged even while being sabotaged; loyalty was demanded even while betrayal was prized; suspicion was nourished even while honesty was praised.

In some sense, it was survival of the fittest.

Fundamental to Vader’s growth was the desire to overthrow his Master.

Note that this isn't saying Sidious wanted Vader to succeed him. It's him just noting how the system works, and that betrayal is the way of the Sith. He never planned to be succeeded by Maul, nor Dooku, nor Vader. In fact, only KFV might have had the power to do so, and Sidious had already begun preparing for that:

Had Vader killed Obi-Wan on Mustafar, he might have attempted to kill Sidious, as well. In fact, Sidious would have been surprised if Anakin hadn’t made an attempt.

None of these give Maul Sidious-level potential, and even if they did, they'd be referring to Sidious before he killed Plagueis and grew exponentially more powerful.

Kyp Durron is number 1.

@hellothere5432: Potential doesn't ever change unless you lose midichlorians. Sidious legit didn't increase in potential at all.

I'm not talking about potential. I'm talking about Sidious' power at a very specific point in time, which is what Maul and Sidious are discussing. Sidious strokes Maul's ego by saying his potential "might" exceed his pre-boost self (when the compliment was paid) and lets Maul think he'll replace him one day, just like he does to Vader two months after Mustafar:

Fundamental to Vader’s growth was the desire to overthrow his Master.

Lucas said Sidious "shouldn't of lost Maul." If Sidious never intended to lose Maul then following the Rule of two, Maul was intended to replace Sidious, meaning Maul had Sidious + potential.

He's talking generally. Sidious shouldn't have lost Maul because it set him back in his plans, not that he wanted to be succeeded.

Sidious literally felt sick after Maul died on Naboo.

If you're referring to Plagueis, he didn't "feel sick"; he felt loss and solitude at being the only Sith left:

It wasn't until he arrived in Theed and learned of Darth Maul's defeat at the hands of the Jedi in a power-generator station that he understood in part the reason for the sense of loss and profound solitude he had experienced following the murder of Plagueis. He could have pressed one of the other Jedi who had arrived on Naboo for information as to how Maul had managed to kill a master sword fighter only to be overcome by a lesser one, but he didn't want to know, and as a result be able to imagine the contest. Still, it gave him great pleasure to stand among Yoda, Mace Windu, and other Masters and watch Qui-Gon Jinn's body reduced to ash, knowing that the Jedi was just the first casualty in a war that had been declared but not yet begun; one in which ten thousand Jedi would follow Qui-Gon to the grave...

He later admonishes Maul's failure, calling him "disappointing":

As for my disappointing apprentice, he met the Jedi in combat. From the report I received he fought well - brilliantly, in fact. It amuses me to think of the Jedi's surprise at the deadly skill of the Sith. Now they know that we have returned, and they must suspect they are no match for us. Fear must curdle inside them now. Fear is an unfamiliar feeling to a Jedi.

And attributes much of his disappointment and feelings to it being a blow to his plans:

Defeated by a young boy, a naive girl, and a Jedi apprentice. It was not a good day

But it is merely a setback, already in the past.

Whilst also stating that Maul may not have been the best choice for an apprentice - note: he means apprentice, not successor - after all:

I, too, made a mistake. Perhaps Maul was not the best choice. For my next apprentice, I will choose more carefully. There must be hate and fear in him. There must be something in his heart that has gone cold, something that I can work on to expand into ruthlessness. But there must be great cunning and intelligence as well.

The next apprentice will make no mistakes.

Maul and Sidious's relationship was described like that of a father and son.

When? Sidious has never shown affection towards Maul. Pride in his abilities, yes, but that's because he takes pride in his contributions, as he outright states:

This was my victory as much as Lord Maul's, for it was thanks to my teaching, my training, that he was able to defeat the great Qui-Gon Jinn

He has no actual emotion or sentiment to spare when it comes to any of his apprentices.

Filoni also states Sidious to have trained Maul to be just like him.

Which means he trained him as a Banite Sith, which we already know. What's your point?

Hell, Maul's potential was literally the reason for why Sidious stole him away from Talzin. It's clear as day Sidious trained Maul as a true successor and that Maul had Sidious + potential.

No, it's not. You're grabbing individual threads - Sidious being disappointed at losing his apprentice, Lucas saying that Sidious could have done without losing his apprentice, and Maul being a Banite Sith - and trying to draw them into a convoluted thread to argue that he had Sidious+ potential, whilst ignoring that every quote you've provided is referencing pre-boost Sidious and saying Maul could maybe surpass him at that point, not his post-boost self, as well as the only quote stating that Maul might have greater potential than pre-boost Sidious being a clear attempt at psychological manipulation by Sidious himself.

Meanwhile, we have direct statements from Sidious himself saying that Maul wasn't his successor and he never intended to have a successor, even when KFV, a far more powerful Sith than TPM Maul whose own applicable power rivalled Sidious', came along.

@breakofdawn:

He has no actual emotion or sentiment to spare when it comes to any of his apprentices

true , the idea of sidious having any kind of positive emotions and sentiments for anyone is just not understanding his character but eh , i am not even surprised .

@aryan87: Maul outright acknowledges that Sidious had no affection or sentiment reserved for him:

Maul had fought his Master many times, starting when he was little more than a child and continuing through his apprenticeship. His body bore innumerable scars from those duels—lessons in the peril of being too slow or two quick, too weak or too distracted. During Maul’s apprenticeship he had always known that Sidious had been willing to kill him. The Sith had not survived their centuries of exile by being sentimental, and a student who couldn’t stand against his Master in a mere training exercise was worse than useless—he was a waste of valuable resources better used elsewhere. But Maul had never faced his Master when he was actually trying to kill him.

Sidious needs Maul alive because he needs an assassin to do his dirty work, but he doesn't particularly care about Maul's actual wellbeing or survival. He's a sociopath who sees things according to the big picture; how does Maul's "death" set back his plans, and what repercussions did it had?

Sidious has never planned to have a successor, and outright states "Bane's power has been passed down for a thousand years. I vow to be its last recipient." The references to Maul having greater potential than pre-boost Sidious are virtually non-existent, and the one cited is a clear ego-stroke by Sidious to urge Maul to improve by craving to overthrow Sidious.

Funnily enough, that quote - when Maul is a kid, and clearly Sidious trying to manipulate him and make him work hard - comes before this, when he's an adult:

Suddenly, my lightsaber is gone. It flies from my hand across the room. It lands in the hand of my Master.

I never see him enter. Not if he doesn't want me to.

The smile of triumph fades from my face.

"Do you think, " Lord Sidious says, walking toward me, "you can ever relax your guard?"

"No, Master. " What a clumsy, weak mistake. I should be prepared for him to enter at all times. How could I have forgotten that, even for a moment?

The lightsaber whirls in the air, twirling, held in my Master's hand. I can't track it, it moves so fast. But I know it's heading for me.

Lord Sidious moves faster than my eye can follow. I smell heat and smoke. The laser traces the outline of my body, my face, my hands. The buzz is loud in my ear. One flinch, one involuntary twitch of a muscle, and I am dead.

I do not flinch.

At last, Lord Sidious deactivates my weapon. He tosses it toward me. The sweat on my palm almost causes me to drop it.

"Do not let me see you relax your guard again, " my Master says. His eyes burn. "You are valuable, yes. But you are not indispensable, Lord Maul. I can do without you."

A flick of his robe, and he is gone.

@hellothere5432: This entire discussion is about potential. Not power.

The two are intertwined. Kenobi had the potential to surpass Qui-Gon's power, but he couldn't surpass someone like Anakin's power or potential.

If Sidious is feeling "loss," as a result of Maul being killed then by default Sidious saw Maul a more than just a "tool." If Sidious was manipulating Maul the same way he was with Dooku then he would of reacted similarly to Maul's death, not caring at all.

What? No it wouldn't. Maul still had use to Sidious. Dooku did not because he was already preparing to fully convert Anakin.

TPM Novel also notes Sidious vowing revenge on the Jedi for Maul's death.

Yes, because he wants to wipe out all of the Jedi. Or do you think he only started opposing the Jedi because Maul died?

Not to mention Sidious feeling sick when Plagueis told him to let Maul die in Lockdown

Post the quote, please. It's irrelevant to the discussion, but I'd like to see it, all the same.

further cements Maul being a true apprentice and intended successor for Sidious.

Maul was "disappointing," because he failed his mission. This changes nothing in regard to Maul being a true successor to Sidious. Not to mention the several other novels including the TPM novel noting Sidious feeling loss at Maul's defeat and vowing revenge on the Jedi because of it. As well as Sidious attributing Maul's loss to bad luck rather than a lack of skill.

Maul was not a successor. Neither were Dooku or Vader. He never planned to have one. This is repeated multiple times by Sidious himself, which - for some utterly bizarre reason - you are choosing to ignore.

The Plagueis Novel explicitly states Maul and Sidious to have had a filial relationship.

"Almost" filial bond, according to Plagueis, who didn't know that Sidious was training Maul as an apprentice, not an assassin. To be a Banite Sith, your relationship with your master is more intimate than friends or teacher and student, and less so than family. That is what Plagueis is - unwittingly - referring to.

Sidious felt sick when Plagueis told him to let Maul die on the Cog Hive seven.

Citation, please.

Sidious vowed revenge on the Jedi for Maul's death.

Because they set his plans back, and rendered years of training, time and energy wasted:

Years of training had gone into the preparation of Darth Maul as a Sith Lord. He had been more than the equal of the Jedi Knights he had faced and should have been able to defeat them easily. It was bad luck and chance that had led to his death, a combination that even the power of the dark side could. not always overcome.

Not in the short run, at least.

His brow furrowed. It would be necessary to replace Darth Maul. He would need to train another apprentice. Such a one would not be easy to find.

Darth Sidious walked to the railing and put his hands on the cool metal. One thing was certain. Those responsible for killing Darth Maul would be held accountable. Those who had opposed him would not be forgotten. All would be made to pay.

His eyes glittered. Still, he had gotten what he wanted most from this business. Even the loss of Darth Maul was worth that. He would bide his time. He would wait for his chance. He would lay the groundwork for what was needed.

He outright states that losing Maul was worth it for him to get what he wanted. Not the words of someone who actually cares about the wellbeing or survival of his student next to his own grand schemes.

If Sidious trained Maul to be just like him then by default, he wouldn't of seen Maul as nothing more than a tool. Unless you want to argue Sidious saw himself as incompetent.

What are you talking about? He trained him as a Banite Sith. He did not train him to succeed him. The two are not the same.

Potential doesn't randomly increase at all.

Actually, potential is often capped by the being's own psyche and beliefs. Killing Plagueis imbued him with a sort of permanent amp as all before him had received, which in turn caused his power to increase.

In terms of potential Maul is stated several times to have Sidious + potential.

Really? So far, you've cited one quote from Sidious - which you neglected to mention was to Maul as a very young child as he tried to butter him up and appear benevolent:

...And that's it. Your "successor" quotes are outright contradicted by Sidious himself, decades of lore, and Lucas himself stating that Sidious only ever wanted someone to help him "rule the universe", not supplant him.

So no;

Sidious didn't plan to be succeeded, per multiple multiple.

Maul didn't have "Sidious+ potential"; the only quote for this was when Sidious was talking to Maul when he was three years old and scared out of his mind, at which point Sidious was treating him like a child;

Even if Maul had "Sidious+ potential", the quote you're trying to twist is referring to Maul having the potential to surpass pre-boost Sidious, who is massively below post-boost Sidious, who in turn is well above TPM Maul. In short; the quote would be referring to how Maul's potential surpasses the power Sidious now wields.

You can keep trying to cling to this false narrative if you'd like, but your arguments are directly rebutted by the lore itself and common sense (why would someone who never wanted to be succeeded train a successor?).

@hellothere5432: I wouldn't accuse anyone of bias, if I were you, but since you want to lie and conceal context yet again and twist words; here's what Sam says:

And that’s a theme in theStar Warssaga as a whole. It’s so very much about Sidious trying to find that successor. He thinks he’s found that person in Darth Maul, but then Maul is cut down. And then he thinks, “Well, I’ll pick a guy who’s already trained really well,” but it doesn’t work out with Count Dooku because he quickly has his eye on this Anakin Skywalker guy.

So Dooku is a successor to Sidious. Interesting. Never mind that Sam isn't a SW authority and gets basic EU information wrong, of course, or that George states that he never wanted a successor and just wanted someone to help him rule the galaxy:

He tries it with anybody he thinks might be more powerful, which is what the Emperor was looking for in the first place: somebody who would be more powerful than he was and could help him rule the universe.

It's referring to Anakin and Luke with the "more powerful than he was" bit, before you try and twist it.

Don't waste my time with nonsense and insults when you can't even read your own quotes.

My top 5 is:

5. Darth Sidious

4. Darth Revan

3. Darth Zanna

2. Darth Bane

1. Darth Nihilus

PS sith are the best!