KS vs The Almighty - A false equivalence to Genjutsu

I have noticed in a couple threads that an equivalence has been made from KS to Genjutsu, the implication being a simply illusionary Genjutsu could replicate the same effect as KS, and I’m here to point out why it‘s a false one.

This has nothing to do with my personal opinions, nor my theories, or hypothesis. This is just the facts of the matter.

The Almighty

Without getting into it‘s other abilities, the Almighty sees all possibilities at once:

Gallery

Aizen was able to interfere with all these visions, of which there are infinite:

The reason why this is so special is because it isn’t passive, it is manual, as CFYOW points out:

The user of Kyoka Suigetsu must manually reproduce all the aspects of the illusion, and if there is a mistake, any adept combatant would realise.

On top of this, Aizen didn’t do this by fooling his current perception.

He fooled Yhwach into seeing they would arrive (in the future), then they actually arrived to him (and they didn’t actually arrive)

Gallery

Essentially, Aizen‘s illusions in the future manifested in the present, NOT the other way around.

This is extremely important to note, as all Genjutsu only affects current perception.

Aizen manually created infinite illusions to fool Yhwach, and Aizen affected his future visions first, therefore affecting his present vision.

2. The false equivalence

I must preface, there are decent arguments that do support some Genjutsu affecting Yhwach, whether based on mind hax resistance or the general effect of the ability (like Izanami) and likewise there are arguments against this (power-null, separate perception).

What I will be explaining here is why similar Genjutsu cannot be used as an argument and compared to KS, and will be ignored.

Here is a thread on CV that I believe accurately explains how Genjutsu operates:

https://comicvine.gamespot.com/profile/revold/blog/genjutsu-explained-naruto/136502/

Taking a normal Genjutsu that manipulates the five senses, here is what this Genjutsu user must do in order to affect Yhwach, and below each reason will be the major issues it causes.

1. They must be able to create illusions in all of his visions, of which there are infinite

Unless a Genjutsu can be argued to passively affect someone’s five senses without input, then just like Aizen, the Genjutsu user must create illusions in all of these visions manually.

False equivalence: If normal Genjutsu operates in the same way Aizen’s does, then it must be applied in the same way in order to affect SK Yhwach, and Genjutsu user must apply infinite illusions just like Aizen did.

If you argue it operates in a different way (passively) then Aizen’s KS affect Yhwach cannot be used to support Genjutsu as the method used to affect Yhwach isn’t the same.

2. They must be able create illusions in a perception they have no idea exists

Like it or not, a Genjutsu user won’t know that Yhwach can see the future unless he tells them.

Unless it can be argued that a Genjutsu user intrinsically knows what the user sees once Genjutsu is placed on them (this isn’t stated anywhere) this isn’t the case.

NLF: Who says affecting someone’s normal vision will affect Yhwach’s infinite visions of the future? Aizen performed this feat the other way around.

If Genjutsu is given the ability to affect every single perception that a person possesses (even perceiving someone’s fate) and even when separate from the normal vision, and even when the Genjutsu user has no knowledge of this perception, that abuses the no limit fallacy.

Genjutsu doesn’t have the feats for this.

3. The user must create illusions in the present that coincide with the infinite illusions created in the future

Of which the Genjutsu user has NO idea that Yhwach sees the future, has no idea what he’s seeing, or how many things he’s seeing to even begin to manipulate him.

NLF: Again, an abuse of the NLF theory, which has nothing to do with strength but to do with the capabilities of Genjutsu. No Genjutsu has ever shown the capabilities to manipulate the actual viewing of fate.

To say this would mean Genjutsu could affect viewings of the past too, while being unaware that a person is viewing the past.

Let‘s look at Tsukishima:

He can insert himself into another past, and instantly, and he literally was physically there, not just mentally:

Gallery

It is the polar opposite of Yhwach’s ability.

These visions Tsukishima gains of the past. Would Genjutsu be able to affect them, without any knowledge of this ability, despite the fact that he gains this knowledge instantly?

If not, why would any normal sense manipulation Genjutsu be able to interfere with visions of the Almighty, of which they have no knowledge of?

Conclusion

In order to use KS to argue that a normal sense manipulation Genjutsu can affect Yhwach, it is arguing there is an equivalence between the two in terms of application.

If there was there would be a user that can do what Aizen did with normal Genjutsu sense manipulation. There are no feats to even suggest the fact a Genjutsu user can manipulate a perception they have no idea exists, there are no feats to suggest a Genjutsu user can manipulate infinite visions of this unknown perception, and there are NO feats suggesting manipulating Yhwach’s current perception will affect his future perception.

I can claim, with this evidence, that although an ability like sense manipulation Genjutsu has the same effects as KS, it cannot be applied in the same way because Genjutsu doesn’t have the feats for this.

KS can not be used as an argument for sense manipulation Genjutsu.

You won’t see one Naruto fan trying to debunk because the can’t lmao.. so their only option is to stay quiet!

Wonderful post Ninja. 👍🏻👍🏻

Keep it coming!!

Thank you bro🙌🏾

Honestly I want people to debunk it so I just just shut up about it

@ninjarizer: Kudos bro. This is the beginning, let's drive all the haters away with pure truth.

This is Bleach's era now!!!

Dope read

@ninjarizer: It's mainly Naruto Fans overlooking Almighty Tbh, Almighty has future perception & present perception, Genjutsu can't affect the 1st point l listed, they need feats for that, if anything they use False Equivalences. Same stans also said that pure AP/Raw Power is capable of negging Devil Hearts/Higher Ranked Devils from BC, which imo isn't true tbh, as they have regen & Can't be tagged for they are statues.

As for this blog, Great work!! Can't believe this is Overlooked to this day...

It's 2023 I can't deal with the ignorance of Genjutsu being equated with KS in this aspect.

You forgot that it was confirmed Yhwach cannot be affected through Mind Control. It was stated that Pepe's Love mind hax when used by Liltotto on him it didn't work on SK Yhwach. It was also stated that Shinji's bankai doesn't work on him.

• A Bankai that "does not distinguish between friend and foe", it affects everyone within the radius of its reiatsu. Disorienting the opponent's perception rather than their senses of sight and hearing, it causes the affected parties to believe that friends are foes and vice versa.

Mind control is a different argument

Naruto debaters will claim that because a sense manipulation Genjutsu has the same effect as KS, it can also fool Yhwach the same way, but conveniently forget how Aizen did it…

When you bring up mind control (comparing the Love to Eida’s love hax) they switch the argument and say that there are ‘levels of resistance’ normally based on arbitrary (in-verse) mechanics, which is essentially the eye test

Here’s the test. Try to ask a Naruto debater how strong Tsukuyomi is, they have no idea

But they will tell you it’s stronger than Shinji‘s Bankai for some reason (even though his Bankai morality flipped thousands) and stronger than KS (because KS is equal to normal Genjutsu somehow) it’s so confusing at this point

So it’s equal and also unequal when it comes to Bleach mind hax, it’s so confusing at this point

I disagree for reasons you can guess but kudos for the effort anyway.

The premise is KS =/= Five Sense Manipulation Genjutsu, the arguments against Tsukuyomi, IT, Koto affecting Yhwach are different ones

I can’t really believe otherwise as a Bleach debater

I only disagreed with the requirements you laid out for effecting Yhwach with Telepathic attacks, other then that I completely agree with you on the fact that people are far too prone to just list KS as just basic five senses manip, taking that as its magnitude rather then its function, ignoring all the potency and versatility KS has, and its very nature.

Lmao

Debunk it

@ninjarizer: if said premise is this "KS =/= Five Sense Manipulation Genjutsu, " then I don't need to lol

So you agree? Wow

Colour me suprised

I can sense sarcasm from him.....

Just debunk this one question.

The most adept user of sense manipulation Genjutsu.

How do they know what Yhwach is seeing in the future to manipulate it?

@ultimatesage:

Same basic answer I've given you several times, they don't need to know. Mind hax isn't attacking Almighty, it's attacking Yhwach

Alright.

With five sense manipulation, and no knowledge of the Almighty, how do they affect what he sees in the future by attacking Yhwach himself?

@ultimatesage:

Can you link me to your thread regarding the Seretei size??

@yok3n: my thread?? 🤔 have I made one recently??

I sense chaos in this thread...

Kid Itachi glares 😇

/J

Lmao, affecting his five senses would automatically lead to affecting his visions or whatever he sees.

Once your five senses are being taken over, any vision you may have would be altered. So no it doesn’t mean KS is superior to normal sharingan genjutsu.

I’m not surprised to see the bleach stans being so quick to agree lol

Yep.

And it’s evermore more apparent this has nothing to do with what I said

How does the user create illusions in a perception they don’t know exists?

@epichotflame:

Lmao, affecting his five senses would automatically lead to affecting his visions or whatever he sees.

But how can they alter it, when they don’t know what he’s seeing

Who’s doing the altering?

@ninjarizer: they don’t need to know what he is seeing to make him see what the caster wants him to see. Idk if that makes sense to you but yeah.

A genjutsu caster can still use genjutsu on someone even tho they don’t know what they might be seeing/looking at lol.

@ninjarizer: Soo genjutsu can affect future perception now?? I'm baffled. They think that those futures only are seen by one person Aka Ywhach, but that dosent matter, as he can Power-null then anyways, hell have the knowledge and will counter thoroughly, peeps think Ywhach will job lol.

@ultimatesage:

There is an old thread where joviolma asked you about the size of Sereitei...and you said you made a thread discussing its size.

It’s so unbelievably easy to pick this logic apart, because it‘s essentially ‘it just does’ with no feats or statements to back it up

Ask yourself these questions.

1. A Genjutsu user wants to make Yhwach see Ichigo.

Does Yhwach see Ichigo in both his future visions AND his physical vision?

How does the Genjutsu user know how to differentiate illusions based on his two visions, one they know NOTHING about?

He would annihilate them immediately once they tried this nonsense

2. A Genjutsu user wants to make Yhwach see a dog and JUST a dog.

Because they don’t know what he‘s seeing in the future, the Genjutsu user doesn’t know what to make him NOT see??

How can they manipulate his senses (his future senses), to make him not see something, they don’t know he’s seeing?

Bro, it’s so silly, this specific Genjutsu has no effect on Yhwach, anyone who tries it would get one shot instantly

Final argument to bury these guys forever

Genjutsu can affect Yhwach‘s senses in the future correct?

Therefore, it can affect Yhwach sense of touch in the future?

Yhwach sense of touch in the future = literal fate manipulation

OBVIOUSLY.

Therefore Genjutsu can affect fate manipulation????

Someone go into a thread and say Genjutsu can affect fate manipulation, not mentally, PHYSICALLY.

Someone’s physical touch in the future = fate manipulation

Aizen on PANEL did this. Genjutsu has no feats

@ninjarizer: i literally just gave an example

“A genjutsu caster can still use genjutsu on someone even tho they don’t know what they might be seeing/looking at lol”

But yeah once ur five sense are being taken over, anything you want to see is what the caster would want you to see, in other words, it doesn’t matter what the victim is seeing and the only thing the caster would care bout is what they want them to see and not what they are seeing.

@epichotflame:

But yeah once ur five sense are being taken over, anything you want to see is what the caster would want you to see, in other words, it doesn’t matter what the victim is seeing and the only thing the caster would care bout is what they want them to see and not what they are seeing.

Yhwach has two visions. Present and future?

Is the illusion the same in both visions? Yes or no?

@ninjarizer: Meaning to say, it's mental blabber that gives a stroke, though I'll see to this thread later as I have IRL stuff to do. Also Illusions & Fate manipulation/ Timeline interaction are 3 different things altogether, lol.

You guys are really arguing for infinite perception speed Yhwach

You’re implying that messing with his physical vision is going to create illusions in infinite timelines (automatically), implying Yhwach sees infinite timelines with his physical vision…

???

You’re also advocating for infinite speed Yhwach, because Yhwach says he can intervene with all these futures:

Genjutsu can affect this sense of touch, implying he physically touches in all these futures…So Yhwach intervenes in infinite futures with his physical speed?

He‘s infinite speed?

I don't think Aizen affected all the possible futures. I don't think he even affected any future. He just placed Yhwach under an illusion, and the illusion created fake events and the Almighty saw the fake future. He just created an illusion and the Almighty couldn't see through that illusion as Aizen says in that scan. If the Almighty can't see that it's an illusion, there is no reason for Yhwach to jump from one future to another because he'll think that he won but turns out it's just fake. He firsts needs to know whether that future is fake or not before he can jump from one future to another, but since his Almighty can't tell when he's under an illusion, he won't jump from one future to another. Because he'll think that he won.

The caster doesn't necessarily need to know who Yhwach is fighting, just put Yhwach under an illusion, and the illusion will make him think he's fighting a particular character(s)....it will create fake events....and he's Almighty will show him the fake future of those characters he's fighting, thinking he won, but only to find out that it's an illusion/fake future. It just happened that KS illusions were based on Ichigo and Renji. It showed him fighting Renji and Ichigo, but it wasn't the case, cuz Ichigo wasn't fighting him, especially Renji who was not even there in SS to begin with IIRC. Meaning it was an illusion and nothing was real. Genjutsu will just create a fake present, his Almighty will see that fake present in the future(since his Almighty can't tell whether its an illusion or not). Making Yhwach think he won or did something to them in the future. He'll then be tricked. And the future is fake.

@yok3n: Cool, tell me which genjutsu can create fake events/mess with perception??

@yok3n:

I don't think he even affected any future.

You’re already wrong.

But let’s unpac this logic, and put it to sleep with a single scan:

I saw it. You two coming here.

Yhwach saw the illusion that Ichigo and Renji were coming, before it physically happened.

This means Aizen affected the future vision FIRST, manually.

He didn’t create Ichigo and Renji, and both illusionary beings affected the future visions, he affected visions of the future directly.

The only other explanation is that Aizen can create illusions in the future, and then they happen in the present, which means he has future manipulation himself (which is nonsense)

Aizen HAS to affect visions of the future first, and he has to affect them ALL (otherwise what’s the point)

All genjustus can mess with present perception, that’s quite literally five sense manipulation in a nutshell...

Good.

Can they mess with future perception?

No. Then they can’t affect Yhwach because of the Almighty

@kalebsmarty156: But how about perceptions that mess with the entire futures that Ywhach sees, let alone altering them?? Me and Ninja won't shut up about this mate. Now provide feats of Genjutsu affecting Futures & Manipulating fate, or get out.

>Corrects a small error he made

> gets hostile

what a joke. Lmao

@kalebsmarty156: Then make the argument pal, I'm ready anytime, anyways im calm now.

eh might be from my old account, can’t help you man

My issue with this logic is as UltimateSage and EHF already pointed out. If he only has one mind, then it isn't relevant that he can see into the future as the "future he sees" would inherently be altered via his own altered perception anyways. This would only be relevant if you are trying to say Ywatch has two different streams of consciousness present in different timelines which are exclusive from one another operating simultaneously .

Tsukishima's Book of End hax rewrote what happen to Ichigo's Zanpakuto anyways. So it isn't as if Ywatch's Almighty transcends Book of End hax.

On the other hand, post 7 user ryuuzakiscorpio points out that hax like Shinji's and Pepe's does not work on SK Ywatch. You can go somewhere and make counter arguments with that at least.

Literally crying because you can’t explain why Yhwach, someone with a SINGULAR brain, and said brain that receives said future visions(which doesn't happen at "once" either lol), being under mind hax GG him

Simply go back to your own easy way of understanding it. Yhwach himself is a spectator and in front of him is his TVs( "infinite" future visions he can choose to percieve). Mind hax is in no way supposed to change the TVs( attack Almighty therefore altering the future). Mind hax attacks Yhwach himself, altering any/all information he is to percieve. Aizen himself literally says KS is interfering with his visions, not changing them *facepalm

Almighty isn't sentient nor is it giving Yhwach a second mind/brain than the one he already has.

Now you did try to make so weird correlation to Tsukishima's way of taking himself to the past......but don't you realize it's still him?? Why would the mind hax stop affecting him because he simply went somewhere?