James Tynion/Scott Snyder clarify cosmology. Mar Novu -> Monitors, 6th Dimension > Multiversity Map

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xearesay

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Quoting something you actually said and lying about off-site drama is not the same thing. If you aren't capable of understand that, it isn't my problem.

Doesn't matter. The intent was still the same. He was using it to discredit you and you were using it to discredit me. Stop trying to play victim.

How was the cosmology changed? Why wouldn't we use Multiversity's model for the cosmology, which was created by Grant Morrison, to understand the cosmology aspects of another work written by Grant Morrison? That's nonsensical.

Final Crisis, Flashpoint and Convergence? Yah know, crisis events which alter a cosmology. The image was created to understand DC, not just what Grant Morrison was doing. Grant isn't the only writer for DC. And since the location of places on the map are contradicted by what Grant put into the comics, we shouldn't use the image to try and understand it.

Snyder said that if the Source Wall breaks the beings from the Sixth Dimension can rebuild it. Otherwise we might assume the Miracle Machine's "happy ending" wish recreated it.

Except you have no evidence to support either of these things happened.

The Source has since been retconned. You do know what a retcon is, right?

When was the source retconned? lol have any evidence for this?

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Au_141

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@deagonx said:

@au_141:

Also, it would helpful to know more about the Anti-Monitor anti-feat if you feel like it.

He's referring to a scene where Green Lantern took the "Flash Car" and drove through a portal where a fight was taking place with Ultra-Monitor (the Brothers Three merged), and hit him hard enough to unmerge him.

https://imgur.com/gallery/MKQXc3Z

Also, the fact that Perpetua somehow threw a planet across the Orrery suggests that the impact would be far beyond planetary.

I have to personally disagree with this. I agree the impact of the planet would likely be above planetary but not so much higher that it wouldn't be an anti-feat considering WF's position in the cosmology. He said the energy from the planet might be enough to open a portal which suggests to me it isnt that much energy.

Okay, the Flash Car feat is explainable in my opinion. I

On the planet anti-feat, he did mention that he was had his energy drained right before and we also have no knowledge of how hard Perpetua throw said planet. The portal he was mentioning also wasn't a typical portal. I do agree that it is weird for Monitor brothers to not be portrayed as least Darkseid (New 52) equal right now. I know most of their showings have been with them weakened but still. Maybe they'll be more of a threat in Death Metal

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Ghostrider65

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#153  Edited By Ghostrider65

I have difficulty to properly understand the DC Cosmology.

The cosmology looks like; True Hypertime (Contains and governs every DC Continuity, retcons and all stories of all realities not just those of the current reality)" Greater Omniverse, Sixth Dimension, Source Wall, Nil, God Sphere, Fifth Dimension, Hypertime Abstraction (The one created by Alpheus which governs and contains every timeline and all stories of the current reality and also where the Fuginauts live), Orrery of Worlds ect???

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deactivated-63c1a72900876

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Morrison Hypertime is the only Meta anything in all of DC canon(s). Snyder's Hypertime is the timestream. There is nothing Meta about it. They do not bypass The Writer and Limbo, there is no Meta in Snyder's canon what so ever.

Morrison's is intended to be Meta. If you haven't seen it, here is a video on it. Morrison Hypertime is literally the meta DCU canon and the differences between them. Bleedspace is not just the area between universes and that is not the correct context in his canon that some other users insist. Bleedspace in his canon, is Meta. Its the space between two comic books you toss on your desk. Toss Frank Millers Batman Issues next to 40s era Golden Age comics and Bleedspace is the link between their Meta's. Here is proof.

This is a video the opposition does not ever post, doesn't want you to know about and refuses to actually acknowledge and wildly different than the current Snyder canon.

Loading Video...

As mentioned, this goes even further. The DC event called Convergence merged every single meta DCU timeline into one timeline and that entire timestream is now one lower zone in Morrison Cosmology. It was as we always said, Morrison lore and canon contains ALL the canons of the DCU.

No Caption Provided

This is why Morrison Nil Monitors and Monitor lore in general is not the same as Snyders. Scott sampled these characters and locations and interpreted them in his own way. He said so 7 times in his video interview. Morrison's canon is entirely different.

I have difficulty to properly understand the DC Cosmology.

The cosmology looks like; True Hypertime (Contains and governs every DC Continuity, retcons and all stories of all realities not just those of the current reality)" Greater Omniverse, Sixth Dimension, Source Wall, Nil, God Sphere, Fifth Dimension, Hypertime Abstraction (The one created by Alpheus which governs and contains every timeline and all stories of the current reality and also where the Fuginauts live), Orrery of Worlds ect???

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Deagonx

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The intent was still the same. He was using it to discredit you and you were using it to discredit me. Stop trying to play victim.

Telling the truth about something you said literally an hour prior does not discredit you. If you aren't capable of understanding that, it's not my problem.

Final Crisis, Flashpoint and Convergence? Yah know, crisis events which alter a cosmology.

How did those change the cosmology structure? Show your evidence.

The image was created to understand DC, not just what Grant Morrison was doing.

Source neeeded.

Except you have no evidence to support either of these things happened.

Okay. But there's clear evidence the Source Wall broke right before Final Crisis.

When was the source retconned?

The Source is now the most powerful figure in DC even amongst characters that tower above the New Gods.

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Morrison Hypertime is the only Meta anything in all of DC canon(s). Snyder's Hypertime is the timestream.

Except theres no evidence that there are multiple Hypertimes in DC, and all DC publications are considered local to the Multiverse which WF build in the first place.

This is a video the opposition does not ever post

Because you basically spam it and rarely does the discussion about Hypertime become relevant. The whole "multiple levels of Hypertime" is just something xearesay made up on the spot to try and censor the fact that WF created DC's Hypertime.

The DC event called Convergence merged every single meta DCU timeline into one timeline and that entire timestream is now one lower zone in Morrison Cosmology.

It's in the ? on the Multiversity Map, which is inside Snyder's cosmology.

No Caption Provided

This is why Morrison Nil Monitors and Monitor lore in general is not the same as Snyders.

They have been retconned in DC, yes.

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xearesay

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Telling the truth about something you said literally an hour prior does not discredit you. If you aren't capable of understanding that, it's not my problem.

It doesn't matter if it was true or not. I brought shit that happened to you on reddit which is true and GodSpawn still warned me. Don't cry to mods when you literally break the rules as well.

How did those change the cosmology structure? Show your evidence.

Crisis events are large rearrangements in things. 1 happened in between Grants cosmology and 2 happened afterwards. Meaning things literally can't be the exact same on the map since the DCU has been rearranged at least twice since this time.

No Caption Provided

Source neeeded.

Because it's a drawing of the DC multiverse? Are you really trying to tell me a map of said verse isn't trying to convey to readers an understanding of said verse? Also I already pointed the map was "meant to accommodate for other writers" meaning it can't be just be about what Grant wants to do.

Okay. But there's clear evidence the Source Wall broke right before Final Crisis.

Yeah but that's not what my argument is addressing. My argument is addressing how did the Source Wall break again if it was already broken?

The Source is now the most powerful figure in DC even amongst characters that tower above the New Gods.

How does this support it being retconned?

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xearesay

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#158  Edited By xearesay

Except theres no evidence that there are multiple Hypertimes in DC, and all DC publications are considered local to the Multiverse which WF build in the first place.

lol no, more like there is no evidence for the Hypertime World Forger made and the Hypertime represented as all of DC canon publication being the same. The only reasoning you have to support this, is that they were both called "Hypertime" which you're utilizing to denote further similarities that are not present at all.

Because you basically spam it and rarely does the discussion about Hypertime become relevant. The whole "multiple levels of Hypertime" is just something xearesay made up on the spot to try and censor the fact that WF created DC's Hypertime.

lol you literally have not proven World Forger made all of DC publication. He didn't even make Earth 33 and there is a greater omniverse.

They have been retconned in DC, yes

Your only evidence for this is a scene the writers defined as "something you can read in different ways..."And if a scene can be specifically read in different ways then you can't conclude that's trying to denote or clarify a specific thing.

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Deagonx

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#159  Edited By Deagonx

It doesn't matter if it was true or not.

Lol.

I brought shit that happened to you on reddit which is true and GodSpawn still warned me.

Off-site drama from months ago as an excuse to call me toxic =/= Positions you stated relevant to this debate the same day I brought it up. If you aren't capable of understanding that, it isn't my problem.

How did those change the cosmology structure? Show your evidence.

Crisis events are large rearrangements in things

That's just repeating the same thing.

1 happened in between Grants cosmology and 2 happened afterwards. Meaning things literally can't be the exact same on the map since the DCU has been rearranged at least twice since this time.

Okay, and we're back to my original question. How did those change the cosmology structure? Show your evidence.

Because it's a drawing of the DC multiverse? Are you really trying to tell me a map of said verse isn't trying to convey to readers an understanding of said verse?

No, I'm really trying to tell you that you need evidence that a map Grant made wasn't for what Grant was trying to do or in some way was against his vision.

Not that it would matter. It's canon to DC. If you want to argue it's a retcon, then it's a retcon. Who gives a shit?

My argument is addressing how did the Source Wall break again if it was already broken?

I don't know. It was never addressed. I gave two reasonable theories. Are you saying the fact that this continuity error was never addressed means the first incident is non-canon to DC? If so, I'll keep that position of yours in mind for the future.

How does this support it being retconned?

It's power level is now such that there's no way for Darkseid to challenge it in any way.

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xearesay

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#160  Edited By xearesay

Off-site drama from months ago as an excuse to call me toxic =/= Positions you stated relevant to this debate the same day I brought it up. If you aren't capable of understanding that, it isn't my problem.

It wasn't even offsite drama. You brought up things about me from reddit so I brought up stuff about you. Making it now on-site drama. Pretty easy to understand.

That's just repeating the same thing.

No it's called stating a fact. A large rearrangement of things is called a Crisis. 1 happened in Grants cosmology and 2 happened after Grants cosmology ended. Meaning the image of the Multiversity map cannot be the definitive representation of DC's cosmology since DC was rearranged twice after the image was made.

Okay, and we're back to my original question. How did those change the cosmology structure? Show your evidence.

A large rearrangement of things is called a Crisis. 1 happened in Grants cosmology and 2 happened after Grants cosmology ended. You can read the stories yourself if you want to know specifically how DC's cosmology changed. However DC itself did still change which contradicts your notion that things still are the same.

No, I'm really trying to tell you that you need evidence that a map Grant made wasn't for what Grant was trying to do or in some way was against his vision.

I never mentioned it being against his vision or anything like that. Rian Hughes already said the map was "designed to be flexible enough to accommodate for other writers going forward." Meaning the image was designed not just for Grant. This is all the evidence I need tbh.

Not that it would matter. It's canon to DC.

Why would it not matter? The entire core of your arguments that Grant Cosmology = Snyder cosmology is because we see an image of the Multiversity map... Which is somehow supposed to prove a bunch of other similarities exist that you have yet to prove? How does showcasing the Multiversity map make both cosmologies the exact same? This is analogical reasoning. Canon as in the highest quality? That is not true because Rian Hughes openly said writers could flat out ignore it. If the image was being held to the highest value this wouldn't be possible.

I don't know. It was never addressed. I gave two reasonable theories. Are you saying the fact that this continuity error was never addressed means the first incident is non-canon to DC? If so, I'll keep that position of yours in mind for the future.

When did I state because of these continuity errors were not addressed, "the first incident is non-canon to DC?" Also those theories were shitty so take the "reasonable" part out lol.

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#161  Edited By Deagonx

It wasn't even offsite drama. You brought up things about me from reddit so I brought up stuff about you

Off-site drama from months ago as an excuse to call me toxic =/= Positions you stated relevant to this debate the same day I brought it up. If you aren't capable of understanding that, it isn't my problem.

No it's called stating a fact. A large rearrangement of things is called a Crisis. 1 happened in Grants cosmology and 2 happened after Grants cosmology ended. Meaning the image of the Multiversity map cannot be the exact same since DC was rearranged twice after the image was made.

What changes were made to the cosmology? Show your evidence.

You can read the stories yourself if you want to know specifically how DC's cosmology changed

So you have no evidence the cosmology changed?

Meaning the image was designed not just for Grant. This is all the evidence I need tbh.

And yet, Grant is the one who designed it, and you just said you aren't saying it was against his vision. So what exactly is your point in the first place?

The entire core of your arguments that Grant Cosmology = Snyder cosmology is because we see an image of the Multiversity map

It's DC's cosmology, that's the core of my argument. But Snyder's cosmology goes above the highest point of Morrison's cosmology, which was Nil from Final Crisis.

When did I state because of these continuity errors were not addressed, "the first incident is non-canon to DC?"

I didn't say you did, I was asking a question. There's a continuity error that wasnt explained regarding the Source Wall. What's your point? The Source Wall was still destroyed on-panel shortly before Final Crisis, which explains why there was no Source Wall at the edge of Nil. Nothing about it not being destroyed later changes that.

Also those theories were shitty

How so?

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xearesay

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#162  Edited By xearesay

Off-site drama from months ago as an excuse to call me toxic =/= Positions you stated relevant to this debate the same day I brought it up. If you aren't capable of understanding that, it isn't my problem.

Doesn't matter the degree of what things were. You're still posting things I said not on CV as something to argue over in this discussion. Which is against what GodSpawn said. Stop making excuses.

What changes were made to the cosmology? Show your evidence.

I'm not arguing what specific changes were made to the cosmology. I'm arguing if the cosmology was changed or not, which it was because crisis events happened. And Crisis events are large rearrangements.

So you have no evidence the cosmology changed?

I do. Final Crisis, Flash point, and Convergence. How the cosmology changed is a different topic from if the cosmology changed. I've proven the cosmology changed. I'm currently not giving evidence as to how the cosmology changed on this page because it's irrelevant to what I'm addressing.

And yet, Grant is the one who designed it, and you just said you aren't saying it was against his vision. So what exactly is your point in the first place?

My post is the map isn't 100% reflective of how Morrison implemented structures in the cosmology and it was designed as more of a template for writers going forward with DC.

It's DC's cosmology, that's the core of my argument. But Snyder's cosmology goes above the highest point of Morrison's cosmology, which was Nil from Final Crisis.

Snyder's work during Justice League Doom War didn't operate on all of DC's cosmology. Matter of fact, he's literally said on twitter that Death Metal is supposed to sort out the continuity. Not this Justice League run which you're implying is operating on a scale that involves of DC canons and works without any squat of proof for this.

How can this Justice League DoomWar storyline involved all of "DC's Cosmology" if there were events unfolding outside of what was going on with Perpetua?

No Caption Provided

I didn't say you did, I was asking a question. There's a continuity error that wasnt explained regarding the Source Wall. What's your point? The Source Wall was still destroyed on-panel shortly before Final Crisis, which explains why there was no Source Wall at the edge of Nil. Nothing about it not being destroyed later changes that.

The Source Wall wasn't around Nil during Final Crisis or it's tie ins though. The Source wall was is in the Promethean Galaxy and not inside the Overvoid where Nil was during Final Crisis. So what you're trying to state it explains doesn't even make sense.

How so?

Because it was a 1 sentence theory? Lol. That doesn't seem strong to me.

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#163  Edited By Deagonx

You're still posting things I said not on CV as something to argue over in this discussion. Which is against what GodSpawn said

God_Spawn said "outside the vine drama."

I'm arguing if the cosmology was changed or not, which it was because crisis events happened. And Crisis events are large rearrangements.

1. You've yet to quantify these changes you claim exist.

2. No event after Final Crisis was actually called a crisis by DC until Action Comics 1008 which came out after those tweets.

3. That definition for Crisis isn't supported by DC, and Rian Hughes has done very limited work for DC.

I do. Final Crisis, Flash point, and Convergence. How the cosmology changed is a different topic from if the cosmology changed. I've proven the cosmology changed

You haven't proven the cosmology changed. In fact, you haven't even attempted to describe how they've changed at all. You took an unconfirmed description of what "crisis" means to DC from an illustrator who's done a single digit number of issues for DC as far as I can tell, and took it at face value. You then applied this definition to events that werent even considered Crises by DC when he tweeted that.

Plus, the only quantifiable "changes" to the cosmology from the main three crises was the number of universes, which are largely arbitrary relative to the map. At best you could argue Final Crisis "added" Nil but that technically means it was always there, and adding something on the top is hardly a "large rearrangement" since everything else stays the same.

My post is the map isn't 100% reflective of how Morrison implemented structures in the cosmology

Okay, how does the map go against the structures Morrison implemented? Show your evidence.

It's DC's cosmology, that's the core of my argument. But Snyder's cosmology goes above the highest point of Morrison's cosmology, which was Nil from Final Crisis.

Snyder's work during Justice League Doom War didn't operate on all of DC's cosmology. Matter of fact, he's literally said on twitter that Death Metal is supposed to sort out the continuity. Not this Justice League run which you're implying is operating on a scale that involves of DC canons and works without any squat of proof for this.

How can this Justice League DoomWar storyline involved all of "DC's Cosmology" if there were events unfolding outside of what was going on with Perpetua?

What are you even trying to say here? I never said it "operated on all of DC's cosmology" I said that it went above the highest point that Morrison created, as the Sixth Dimension is above Nil. I never brought up the JL/Doom War.

The Source Wall wasn't around Nil during Final Crisis or it's tie ins though. The Source wall was is in the Promethean Galaxy

The Source Wall is still in the Promethean Galaxy, even after it was officially confirmed to encompass the Monitor Sphjere. It's accessible from multiple different points in the hierarchy. This isn't problematic in any way.

Because it was a 1 sentence theory? Lol. That doesn't seem strong to me.

So the strength of a theory is based on it's length? If the Source Wall was recreated at all, it happened off-panel and apparently no one cared enough to explain how it happened. If it wasn't actually recreated (as in, no writer felt the initial destruction was even worth acknowledging) then it's been retconned. Stuff gets retconned all the time. Whether it was retconned or not doesn't change it's relevance to the events that occurred at the same time as it. It's a lead in comic for Final Crisis, and appropriately explains the lack of a Source Wall around Nil which was canonized by Multiversity.

It all fits just fine relative to Final Crisis. The only reason you actually have for pushing against this is clinging to the argument of a "different Nil" which was denied by Tynion (and Superman/The Unexpected) or that in some bizarre way the idea it was in the Overvoid in FC changes the fact that the Sixth Dimension is definitively above it in DC's cosmology.

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deactivated-5ee9c4453cde7

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@deagonx: I don't think there is any evidence that places TR at Perpetua's level and ample evidence to the contrary.

Oh there's plenty. TR has metafictional abilities. It can almost feel the reader's presence. It can sense story around him, moving things and manipulating events. He was aware that he was "inside a self-assembling hyper-story". Even in the current canon Mandrakk also confirms he threw him into the Overvoid. If Nil was inside the Wall, that simply means their battle ripped a hole into it too.

There's no reason to assume that Nix Uotan, Thought Robot, or Mandrakk (who still exists by the way) are capable of reaching the Sixth Dimension which means they are lower in the cosmic hierarchy.

I never said anything about Nix, but TR and Mandrakk have existed in the Overvoid which is the highest point in DC cosmology. By your logic, how can we know the Monitor Brothers can exist there when they've only been shown to reach the 6th Dimension? Let's accept that the 6th Dimension is outside the Wall, it still either has to be below the Overvoid or the same as it.

and canonically lost battles two separate times to World Forger's servants/pet.

A much, MUCH weaker Mandrakk who was trapped in the Dark Multiverse ever since his defeat at the hands of TR. He needed to feed on the blood of a Fuginaut which wasn't the same as feeding on the Bleed of the Multiverse (which he consumed a lot of in his prime).

As for Mandrakk not actually being a Nil Monitor, as I said before there's very little evidence to support that and several statements that assert the exact opposite.

Going to address this and the following statements on "current canon" here.

Yes he is a part of the Nil Monitors. Yes in the "current canon" the Monitors sent him. But all of that is "story" made by the Flaw. FC Superman Beyond is a story about stories. You have TR reaching out touching the reader, referencing he himself is inside a "self-assembling hyper-story". In the origin of the probe, it being infected lead to the creation of the story of the Monitor Race. That is the current canon. The Probe story exists above it and the point was that the Multiverse retroactively gave it a role and place in the story.

Think of it like this, what's Superman's origin? Is it Secret Origin? Birthright? Or is it that he's a fictional character created by Jerry Siegel and Joe Shuster? Secret Origin and Birthright are to the story of Dax being from NIl as the IRL truth of Siegel and Shuster is to the Probe story.

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Deagonx

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Oh there's plenty. TR has metafictional abilities. It can almost feel the reader's presence. It can sense story around him, moving things and manipulating events

4th wall awareness isn't a feat of power unless it is shown to be, but even so Perpetua is directly above him in the cosmology.

Even in the current canon Mandrakk also confirms he threw him into the Overvoid. If Nil was inside the Wall, that simply means their battle ripped a hole into it too.

The wall was destroyed in a tie-in comic, Death of the New Gods, which Morrison has acknowledged as connected to the events of Final Crisis.

A much, MUCH weaker Mandrakk

How much weaker he was is difficult to quantify, but yes he was weakened by his loss to TR.

But all of that is "story" made by the Flaw.

There's no evidence of this. Besides, the Monitor Brothers (and by extension the Nil Monitors) are not of the Flaw, they are of the Overvoid according to Perpetua.

No Caption Provided

The Probe story exists above it and the point was that the Multiverse retroactively gave it a role and place in the story.

That's not supported by Final Crisis. Thought Robot was aware of Dax Novu's true origin (the part of Monitor-Mind that felt contaminated by the Multiverse) and so was the Monitor race, who called Dax "the first son of Monitor"

Think of it like this, what's Superman's origin? Is it Secret Origin? Birthright? Or is it that he's a fictional character created by Jerry Siegel and Joe Shuster?

Well parallel timelines make several Superman origins "canon" but his latter origin (his literal real world creation) doesn't really equate to the probe story.

Secret Origin and Birthright are to the story of Dax being from NIl as the IRL truth of Siegel and Shuster is to the Probe story.

That doesn't really make sense because TR and the Monitors knew the probe story, and the "IRL truth" of Mandrakk is that he was created by Grant Morrison and JG Jones (or whoever illustrated Superman Beyond)

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@deagonx:4th wall awareness isn't a feat of power unless it is shown to be

Well good thing it was. This isn't like Deadpool where it's all for jokes. The meta stuff is part of the story and has purpose.

The wall was destroyed in a tie-in comic, Death of the New Gods, which Morrison has acknowledged as connected to the events of Final Crisis.

Dude we already talked a lot about this. Morrison did his best to connect it but whatever Starlin did wasn't made before he already started FC. Even in the end he denounces many aspects of the story calling it apocryphal and contradicting it in Secret Files.

But if it was destroyed, that alone pretty much cements that Pereptua's story can't have been true before, making it another new retconned story of the Flaw. After all, if the Source Wall is destroyed, so is Pereptua. Actually not even the first time the Source Wall was blown up and nothing was left. In John Byrne's Genesis event, it was destroyed and remade so only Darkseid, two Old Gods and Ares were on it. Then the other Old Gods came back.

There's no evidence of this.

We already had (and are still having this conversation) on Reddit, but just to repeat, the evidence is absolutely there, and it is everywhere. Again, it's not like they're using meta stuff for no reason. Going to paste my last reply here:

I don't think you fully understand the nature of this meta hyper-story and how it plays with retcons, continuity and canons.

The idea that higher dimensional beings see those below as fictional to them is a basic principle in FC and Multiversity. The Overvoid is the highest point, basically it's like not even being in DC comics anymore (Morrison himself states it contains all other stories too: Marvel, Archie you name it), so everything below it is fictional to Monitor-Mind.

Read that part again. "Story" is a natural part of the Flaw. "Story" is alien to Monitor Probe (Morrison's way of saying this thing is not even part of any canon) but it was infected by it. That infection spreads, creating Nil and the Monitor Race's history. The entire history of Nil did not exist before that. It was created retroactively by story spreading. It gave him a new story and history so it can exist inside its pre-existing canon. It gave him a new in-continuity origin.

Before that, the probe had no origin inside the story. It's like if Goku or Ben 10 traveled to DC. They have no place in the story. So in response, the Flaw's story retcons it so it does have a place. Dax has no defense against story or retcons so ultimately he succumbs to it. When Monitor-Mind leaves, then yes he might as well have never been the probe because now he has no connection to his origin outside the Flaw (DC comics) and only has the Nil stuff left. When the new retcons came in then he became weaker than ever and forgot himself. Either way it is misleading to use current cosmology to describe Mandrakk and TR, because the point is that they were originally not even part of any DC cosmology until the end. You might as well be debating your own versions of Mandrakk.

As for the rest, again, taking it too literally straw manning (that or you're not understanding my analogy at all). Obviously the Overvoid is fictional to us too, but to Overvoid, DC Comics is fictional to it. Like I said above, story creation, plot manipulation, containment of continuities and canons, are all part of this larger story.

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@earthmine5248:

Well good thing it was.

Nothing about the 4th wall awareness given to characters in Limbo was indicated to give them power over the lower levels of existence.

Dude we already talked a lot about this. Morrison did his best to connect it but whatever Starlin did wasn't made before he already started FC.

Dude, I just showed a scan where Grant Morrison explicitly referenced the events of DotNG as relevant to Final Crisis. Likewise, what Grant did or did not coordinate with isn't what determines DC canon.

No Caption Provided

But if it was destroyed, that alone pretty much cements that Pereptua's story can't have been true before, making it another new retconned story of the Flaw

Yeah, it was retconned.

the evidence is absolutely there, and it is everywhere.

I sure would like to see it.

Going to paste my last reply here:

And I'll paste my response to it here:

And I don't think you fully understand the nature of this meta hyper-story and how it plays with retcons, continuity and canons.

Okay, then quantify it with evidence.

The idea that higher dimensional beings see those below as fictional to them is a basic principle in FC and Multiversity.

Bullshit. None of that is stated in either story. The sole instance where the idea of fiction is even addressed is in the Multiversity Guidebook where it describes the changes of the Multiverse as "written into the fictions of Earth-33" but this is not a metafictional relationship.

What we saw in Multiversity proved that although the events of separate universes are fictional within other universes, they are all equally real within the Orrery. There's no evidence the Monitors literally see the Orrery as a work of fiction, and it directly contradicts what happens in the story.

That infection spreads, creating Nil and the Monitor Race's history. The entire history of Nil did not exist before that. It was created retroactively by story spreading.

Okay, and the story explained in Final Crisis has been retconned. There's no indication everyone involved is unaware of the true reality of things.

When Monitor-Mind leaves, then yes he might as well have never been the probe because now he has no connection to his origin outside the Flaw (DC comics) and only has the Nil stuff left.

Except in FC everyone still knew his origin.

When the new retcons came in then he became weaker than ever and forgot himself.

That isn't supported by anything on-panel.

Either way it is misleading to use current cosmology to describe Mandrakk and TR

They are DC characters with a position in the hierarchy of the current cosmology.

Obviously the Overvoid is fictional to us too, but to Overvoid, DC Comics is fictional to it

There's no evidence of this and there is explicit evidence to the contrary.

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@deagonx: Replied to most of what you said in Reddit, just placing it here:

Dude, the evidence is all there for you to see whether you admit it or not. The use of metafiction and weaponization of story and retcons is as clear as day and I honestly don't think it's worth continuing this if you keep stubbornly denying it. Especially if you're literally calling it "bullshit". Utter display of disrespect to me, to the book and of ignorance to the point of the book.

But no I'm not saying the Nil Monitors see DC as fiction, Monitor-Mind does. I don't want to repeat myself but for the last time, Nil and the history of the Monitors is another creation of The Flaw's story, it's own canon contained inside Monitor-Mind's "higher" canon. Overvoid Monitor-Mind and the Probe saw it as fiction before it was infected by story (that very fiction). Again, clearly seen in the book. This is all about a story (DC Comics) within a story (Monitor-Mind) that contains all stories (every other fictional canon in existence) which Morrison himself states in countless interviews. As long as Dax is inside the Flaw, he is subject to its continuity changes true and yes you might as well treat the current version of him like you do now, but the current cosmology is clearly not the same.

The Mandrakk of old is not the same. If it makes you happy Mandrakk (Final Crisis) > Perpetua but Mandrakk (Post-Retcon) < Perpetua. Either way, nothing is above Overvoid in any iteration. Not even the Source.

As for DOTNG, dude, I literally gave you a response to that on Reddit with a confirmation from Morrison from the SAME INTERVIEW. Stop cherry picking your evidence man.

As it is, the best I can do is suggest that the somewhat contradictory depictions of Orion and Darkseid’s last-last-last battle that we witnessed in Countdown and DOTNG recently were apocryphal attempts to describe an indescribable cosmic event.

To reiterate, hopefully for the last time, when we started work on Final Crisis, J.G. and I had no idea what was going to happen in Countdown or Death Of The New Gods because neither of those books existed at that point. The Countdown writers were later asked to ‘seed’ material from Final Crisis and in some cases, probably due to the pressure of filling the pages of a weekly book, that seeding amounted to entire plotlines veering off in directions I had never envisaged, anticipated or planned for in Final Crisis.

https://www.newsarama.com/123-grant-morrison-on-final-crisis-1.html

Either way, Final Crisis Secret Files straight up contradicts DOTNG and like I said, even then the very fact that the Source Wall blew up completely twice before actually supports the idea that Perpetua is a new retcon of the Multiverse. DC continuity is fluid and ever changing, but the Overvoid and the Probe story are all supposed to be above those changes.

This is my final response and compromise.

Mandrakk (Final Crisis) > Perpetua > Mandrakk (Post-Retcon).

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As for DOTNG, dude, I literally gave you a response to that on Reddit with a confirmation from Morrison from the SAME INTERVIEW. Stop cherry picking your evidence man.

I'm aware, but Morrison doesn't get to pick and choose DC canon.

but the Overvoid and the Probe story are all supposed to be above those changes.

The Brothers are made from the Overvoid.

Mandrakk (Final Crisis) > Perpetua > Mandrakk (Post-Retcon).

Lol. Dude, you're welcome to believe what you want, I'm just saying the evidence pretty clearly contradicts that viewpoint. If we want to argue actual feats instead of cosmology positioning Mandrakk becomes a whole lot weaker in the first place.

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@deagonx: If Snyder can retcon Morrison, Morrison can retcon Starlin. No double standards or hypocrisies.

And yes I know Pereptua said she made them from the Overvoid. I literally made a huge point on that in several posts. That changes nothing really. It only confirms that the Overvoid is still on top and explains that they're made of the same thing Dax was.

I'm just saying the evidence pretty clearly contradicts that viewpoint.

No not at all. Did you even understand what I said? Mandrakk as per the original story from FC is clearly more powerful but Mandrakk in the current post-retcon cosmology isn't. It's literally what you yourself have said. Their cosmologies are different and have contradicting points. The one Mandrakk was originally created in put him only below the Overvoid.

Unless you want to debate about just Final Crisis. Let me guess, you're one of those people who lowball Mandrakk and say he's only skyfather level? Because if so that's a completely different topic and lowballing if I've ever seen one.

If we want to argue actual feats instead of cosmology positioning Mandrakk becomes a whole lot weaker in the first place.

I don't want to get into more of this since the whole point of my recent replies was that I'm tired of this but I heavily disagree. If we're taking Mandrakk and Perpetua from their respective peaks from their books and treat them as separate canons and compare their feats alone it's not even comparable.

Mandrakk was a metafictional threat that was devouring story itself, constantly growing in power while competing with a rival that's all about growing as powerful as story needs be so good beats evil. Their battle was so great it ripped open Nil into the Overvoid (note before their fight there is no Overvoid in sight, the sky was covered in cogs and clocks which disappeared only in the final issue of FC).

Meanwhile the biggest feat we know from Perpetua is her apparent claim of tearing pieces from the Overvoid. Yet she's still too weak right now.Her biggest on panel feat is destroying one universe and needing rest. Her son at his peak (and no this was without the anti-matter cannon) could destroy countless universes without trying. By feats only and no cosmology, she's not even better than COIE Anti-Monitor.

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@earthmine5248:

If Snyder can retcon Morrison, Morrison can retcon Starlin. No double standards or hypocrisies.

I mean, sure, but nothing about Final Crisis retcons the scene about the Source Wall.

Mandrakk as per the original story from FC is clearly more powerful but Mandrakk in the current post-retcon cosmology isn't.

I mean, his actual power level hasn't really changed at all. It isn't as though the existence of people above him makes him weaker. If you want to argue that him no longer being a probe from Overvoid makes him weaker I'd disagree. His power level is never largely based on his origin because it's nebulous and impossible to quantify. It's usually his statement about 52 universes or his own position in the cosmic hierarchy that is brought up, or his conceptual nature. None of that has really changed.

If we're taking Mandrakk and Perpetua from their respective peaks from their books and treat them as separate canons and compare their feats alone it's not even comparable.

If we're going on feats alone Mandrakk has absolutely no multiversal feats. His position is based entirely on presumptous scaling to later iterations of the DC multiverse and characters he never interacted with, which is a big part of the problem.

Mandrakk was a metafictional threat that was devouring story itself, constantly growing in power while competing with a rival that's all about growing as powerful as story needs be so good beats evil. Their battle was so great it ripped open Nil into the Overvoid

It is difficult/impossible to quantify those things in a way that is compatible with battleboarding.

Meanwhile the biggest feat we know from Perpetua is her apparent claim of tearing pieces from the Overvoid.

Well she created her sons who created an infinite multiverse and splintered into the Nil Monitors.

By feats only and no cosmology, she's not even better than COIE Anti-Monitor.

Yeah but by feats and no cosmology Mandrakk and TR are well below a lot of people in DC.

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@deagonx:

I mean, sure, but nothing about Final Crisis retcons the scene about the Source Wall.

That was meant to address your saying that Morrison doesn't decide canon. Just to reiterate the main point, Death of the New Gods is apocryphal to him. He tried his best to make things work even though he was well into his own story, but their final points just don't line up. FC released afterwards so by your own logic, it supersedes it.

Whether the Source Wall was intact or not, Nil wasn't exposed to the Overvoid throughout the story except for 1. At the end of TR's fight with Mandrakk 2. The end of the story when Weeja Dell points out the normal Nil sky of clockwork and cogs are gone (which were still there in the fight). Meaning, only they're battle could've done that. No being in DC has ever shattered reality and ripped open a part of the Multiverse hard enough to reveal the bare nakedness of Overvoid.

If we're going on feats alone Mandrakk has absolutely no multiversal feats.

Limbo (which is larger than the Sphere of the Gods which is larger than the Orrery) is around the size of TR's finger but if the size scaling is not convincing enough there's the following:

  • He one-shotted a Monitor into a smoldering corpse without even trying.
  • a much weaker version of himself manifested inside another monitor who entered the physical multiverse then beat both Spectre and Radiant with ease. That alone puts him at least multiversal by scaling.
  • He was draining the Multiverse of Bleed, sucking Creation dry. According to Zillo Valla, if he succeeded, the entirety of existence would be gone. All universes in the Orrery (the Multiverse proper), the Sphere of the Gods, Monitor Sphere, all of it. According to Morrison, the DC Multiverse was basically being sucked off of story itself.
  • According to Superman both TR and Mandrakk were still growing in power the more they fought and all of reality in Nil was crumbling because of it. Which is why there was a crack showing the Overvoid when Nil normally does not.
  • This is more on TR but it is aware of being in a story as it proclaims he's inside a self-assembling hyper-story. He can also almost feel and touch the reader (one of the reasons it was 3D). This wasn't a 4th wall break for jokes or fun. This was to show how it's so high metafictionally it can almost perceive the ultimate truth about

His position is based entirely on presumptous scaling to later iterations of the DC multiverse and characters he never interacted with, which is a big part of the problem.

Completely false. Above there I just gave you feats and statements that come from before Snyder's cosmology. If anything the later iterations of the DC Multiverse are what's scaling to him. Snyder and Tynion are the ones building off of FC to make their new characters seem powerful. Not the other way around.

Well she created her sons who created an infinite multiverse and splintered into the Nil Monitors.

She created a Multiverse but it was pretty much near empty. World Forger's job was to make the universes inside it. But no neither created an infinite multiverse. We never saw how many Alpheus made before the Source pulled the plug on her project and had everything remade again in a new reality.

In this new single reality, Mar says he will be reborn on Oa. He did, but only after Krona did his experiment which created the Infinite Multiverse. An infinite Multiverse that was accidentally created, and was infinitely weaker than a stable multiverse. Which is why Mar spends COIE pulling off a plan to unite the remaining universes to make a strong one. That was a very important plot point in COIE that's not denied and is non-sensical to retcon anyway. Mobius' final plan in the climax was all about going to the dawn of time to remake the Multiverse so there was only the Anti-Matter Universe. He failed so there was only 1 positive universe as strong as ever.

And no, just because Mobius can destroy near infinite universes does not mean she can. Barbatos was a pet of World Forger but became powerful enough to kill him. The same way, Mobius seems to have really been more powerful than her in his prime. Now here she is, saying only a fraction of her powers are left, and she still needs rest after destroying 1 single universe.

Also note, non of the Monitor Brothers have consumed Bleed or have shown to be capable of destabilizing the Multiverse by doing so either.

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FC released afterwards so by your own logic, it supersedes it.

Correct. However, nothing about FC retcons the fact that the Source Wall was destroyed, so there's no reason to consider it non-canon as it pertains to the tie-in comic.

Nil wasn't exposed to the Overvoid throughout the story except for 1. At the end of TR's fight with Mandrakk 2. The end of the story when Weeja Dell points out the normal Nil sky of clockwork and cogs are gone (which were still there in the fight). Meaning, only they're battle could've done that.

I don't object to this rationalization, but how much damage one does to Nil is not something that I can see being quantified in a definitive way.

No being in DC has ever shattered reality and ripped open a part of the Multiverse hard enough to reveal the bare nakedness of Overvoid.

I mean, the Source Wall has been broken multiple times. Further, the Monitor Brothers and Perpetua are more powerful than Mandrakk and TR, which means they are capable of it as well. Plus I don't think the "revealing the Overvoid" is the most impressive part about their fight. The Green Lanterns were tasked with patching up the bare nakedness of the Overvoid with their constructs.

No Caption Provided

Limbo (which is larger than the Sphere of the Gods which is larger than the Orrery) is around the size of TR's finger but if the size scaling is not convincing enough there's the following:

Well this is wrong. Limbo in Final Crisis is portrayed as being smaller than the average universe based on Thought Robot's size. Limbo is barely his fingertip but a single Universe is nearly half his body.

He one-shotted a Monitor into a smoldering corpse without even trying.

This is not a multiversal feat. Rox Ogama was killed by Green Lanterns and Nix Uotan was imprisoned by Batman Who Laughs. You can argue they were depowered, and that's fine, but we've never seen a "full-powered Monitor" fight anyone so we have no frame of reference outside them.

a much weaker version of himself manifested inside another monitor who entered the physical multiverse then beat both Spectre and Radiant with ease. That alone puts him at least multiversal by scaling.

It does not, whatsoever, because that same version was defeated by the Green Lantern Corps, and Spectre/Radiant themselves are nowhere near Multiversal in their regular forms.

He was draining the Multiverse of Bleed, sucking Creation dry.

This is pretty much impossible to quantify.

According to Zillo Valla, if he succeeded, the entirety of existence would be gone.

That may have been her way of giving Superman a good enough reason to leave his dying wife in the hospital, but even if we take it at face value it creates some complications. They basically say that if Nil is destroyed the rest of the multiverse goes with it. Mind you it's stated 4 times in FC: Superman Beyond alone that there's only 52 universes at that time. Do we assume that because the destruction of Nil results in the destruction of existence that Nil itself is a multi-universal feat? How do we reach that conclusion?

According to Superman both TR and Mandrakk were still growing in power the more they fought and all of reality in Nil was crumbling because of it. Which is why there was a crack showing the Overvoid when Nil normally does not.

I mean, yeah. How do we equate that to the level of power necessary to destroy an infinite multiverse?

This is more on TR but it is aware of being in a story as it proclaims he's inside a self-assembling hyper-story. He can also almost feel and touch the reader (one of the reasons it was 3D). This wasn't a 4th wall break for jokes or fun.

See above.

Completely false. Above there I just gave you feats and statements that come from before Snyder's cosmology.

Okay, but the only one that was even arguably multiversal was Zillo Valla's statement about what happens if Nil is destroyed and as I explained, it requires several assumptions to reach that conclusion.

She created a Multiverse but it was pretty much near empty

I mean, that's still extremely impressive.

But no neither created an infinite multiverse.

Fair enough.

Also note, non of the Monitor Brothers have consumed Bleed or have shown to be capable of destabilizing the Multiverse by doing so either.

Of course not. They aren't cosmic vampires like the Monitors were, so they have nothing to gain by doing so.

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@deagonx:

I don't object to this rationalization, but how much damage one does to Nil is not something that I can see being quantified in a definitive way.

If they didn't the stop they could've easily destroyed all of Nil and everything existing below it. It's at LEAST Multiversal.

I mean, the Source Wall has been broken multiple times.

And we never see the Overvoid behind it. Mostly just Source Energy. Even in that scan you see there.

Further, the Monitor Brothers and Perpetua are more powerful than Mandrakk and TR,

According to you. The point of this debate is that I disagree both on feats and on places in their respective cosmologies.

Well this is wrong. Limbo in Final Crisis is portrayed as being smaller than the average universe based on Thought Robot's size. Limbo is barely his fingertip but a single Universe is nearly half his body.

That's literally the same pages I was referring to. The Multiverse including the Sphere of the Gods is contained within limbo. It's on the map itself saying that. Of course the inconsistency lies with the sizes of the spheres in the Orrery that we see in the room of the Monitors but obviously those aren't literal to scale representations of them. They look like Earths after all. If anything they look like holographic representations.

But that's a completely different topic I don't want to debate in so fine never mind. Either way universes are smaller than normal monitors, and TR and Mandrakk are larger than them.

Mind you it's stated 4 times in FC: Superman Beyond alone that there's only 52 universes at that time.

The number of universes inside the Orrery is irrelevant. If there were infinite inside all of it would be gone too. The point is that the whole Orrery (which contains the Multiverse) and everything inside it will be gone. Whether there's 1 universe, 52 or infinite, all normal universes are to be contained in it. If there was another Orrery Bulk/Bubble that would be gone too since it would still be inside the Sphere of the Gods.

Do we assume that because the destruction of Nil results in the destruction of existence that Nil itself is a multi-universal feat? How do we reach that conclusion?

Which leads to the second point, it would destroy all of existence, that includes the Sphere of the Gods and everything in it as well. That alone is above Multiversal. That's pretty much the point of the spheres and the hierarchy as if we're to be strictly specific, the Orrery itself is the Multiverse in the conventional sense, the spheres above it are higher dimensions containing realms that themselves contain many worlds and have multiple emanations in the multiverse. For example, Underworld is where Hades' realm emanates from, but so does the Phantom Zone according to the Map's description. Both are clearly different and have multiple emanations in different Earths but all come from the "Underworld" of the Sphere. Similarly "skyland" not only contains Olympus, but also Asgard, and all the realms of the other pantheons of the Third World. Even Heaven is its own Multiverse too.

I'd also like to add that Godhead/"True" Darkseid himself is said to be multiversal and was dragging the entire Orrery to oblivion with him. Mandrakk is more powerful than Darkseid. According to Morrison, if Simon Hurt is personal evil, Darkseid is tyrannical evil then Mandrakk is the ultimate evil. Basically he's the big bad of the big bad of the big bad of his big saga at the time and is one way or another behind everything. Wouldn't make sense if the middle guy is multiversal but he is not. Clearly he's far beyond that.

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Wait hold up, I realize this is turning into a battleboard debate. That's not really my thing. Also as my last reply to you on reddit said, I'm really tired of this no offense.

I just wanted to send that last reply for closure but for now this will be my last one.

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@earthmine5248 said:

Wait hold up, I realize this is turning into a battleboard debate. That's not really my thing. Also as my last reply to you on reddit said, I'm really tired of this no offense.

I just wanted to send that last reply for closure but for now this will be my last one.

He denounces all Morrison interviews about Final Crisis and the Multiversity. Check this out Read on page 193 how another user debunked him about the location of the AntiMatter universe with legit scans, saying it was in the Multiverse and just another universe in it. He goes on to say its not important. Then, gets an interview from Morrison saying all anythings ever to exist in DC are contained in that Jar in Nil.

"The Orrery of Worlds is the Monitor name for the structure of the entire Multiverse as seen from the outside, on a higher scale. Basically, it's everything that ever was, in a jar. What purpose does it serve and why should we all be very afraid? See Superman Beyond." -GM

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If they didn't the stop they could've easily destroyed all of Nil and everything existing below it. It's at LEAST Multiversal.

There is literally no evidence of either of those things.

And we never see the Overvoid behind it. Mostly just Source Energy. Even in that scan you see there.

That's the Overvoid, it was stated in the panel prior to it. What is Source Energy?

It's on the map itself saying that.

Okay, but the portrayal in Final Crisis directly contradicts that notion. Besides, TR is just somewhat bigger than the Monitors who are people sized on Earth.

Further, the Monitor Brothers and Perpetua are more powerful than Mandrakk and TR,

According to you.

According to DC canon.

The number of universes inside the Orrery is irrelevant

The size of the cosmology you scale to does matter.

That alone is above Multiversal.

I already addressed why it's not.

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Check this out Read on page 193 how another user debunked him about the location of the AntiMatter universe with legit scans

First, you are bringing up off-site drama again @god_spawn

2nd. He never debunked me, I never held an opinion on where the anti-matter universe was. But that changes nothing about where Nil is.

Then, gets an interview from Morrison saying all anythings ever to exist in DC are contained in that Jar in Nil.

Which I debunked with scans from the comic.

Scans from the comic > Unofficial interview statement.

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@deagonx: after taking a break for a few days and reading some of the things over again, including the link @michael_julius sent me, I decided I do want to make one more final reply.

It's clear you really are intending on lowballing the meta aspect of Morrison's stories, denying their significance and how they work. You clearly deny all of Morrison's interviews while hypocritically assert yours with Snyder (even though he and Tynion themselves say it's up to interpretation and may be changed by others).

There's a very important line of internal monologue from TR

"I'm inside a self-assembling hyper-story! And it's trying its best to destroy me!"

which you repeatedly disregard as "vague" despite it (combined with the context from the story) explicitly proving the metafictional nature of this story. And that is it's a constantly changing, self-aware story that was basically writing itself and had intentions of destroying Superman, who despite that, feels his own purpose in this story is to defeat Mandrakk.

"There's nothing left; the inexorable logic of a living story drives us to its conclusion"

Words on the page explicitly show it to be a story that was very much alive and was deliberately pulling off an action. A story where "night falls" and everything in DC Creation is sucked dry. Undeniable proof of Metafiction. TR wins and actually defeats this story however because as Zillo states, the story of Superman is the greatest story of DC, stronger than even Mandrakk's hyper-story. Something Doomsday Clock even expanded on (both the constantly changing story part and the Superman as the ultimate story and defender of the Multiverse part) and I wish to remind you of with the following links to my post and an article on the subject.

https://www.reddit.com/r/DCcomics/comments/fpvqyo/superman_as_the_ultimate_champion_of_dcs_story/

https://sciencefiction.com/2019/10/23/supermans-story-is-the-greatest-story-part-ii/

So clearly, Morrison backed up his statements on text and page. Darkseid was destroying the entire Orrery of Worlds (which is large sphere containing all universes of DC, whether it be 52 or infinity, it's essentially the DC Multiverse) by the end of FC, Mandrakk (meant to be the larger villain) on the other hand was destroying the totality of DC Creation and Story. That includes all of Hypertime, the Fifth Dimension of the time, everything until nothing is left but Mandrakk. Former is Multiversal, the latter is above that (Metaversal?).

As for its current place in canon, this can easily still be "true" even now as it can be viewed as the flaw creating more hyper-stories to change itself. I already showed you before how this "story" basically infected the probe and created the entire history of the Monitors of Nil, essentially "retconning" them into existence. Before the infection, the probe investigated the multiverse and was already contaminated. Afterwards he now suddenly has an entire fabricated history and legend of being the Radiant One and is already known as the one the first-born of Monitor who investigated the Orrery by all the monitors despite them not existing when he previously investigated it. That is because this story was a creation of this Hyper-Story of the Multiverse. The Flaw basically wrote this huge story to guard itself and created TR (an invention of Dax inside this Hyper-Story) from the story of Superman.

The new scan from Unexpected adds to the fabricated Nil history where he investigated the Multiverse as the Monitors were aware of it, but does not affect the higher one above it which remains untouched by the infection of story.

Look I actually grew to really like Snyder's stuff too, but clear despite his attempts that he's changed things from what they're meant to be. In his current cosmology, perhaps Mandrakk is weaker than Perpetua at her strongest. Then again, maybe she too has metafictional powers she has yet shown. In fact it's implied at the end of Doom War when she claims she made the whole story herself. But then again the Quintessence imply that there are clearly stories outside her domain, showing she may not be the ultimate meta creator of DC after all. We'll just have to wait for Death Metal to see.

Either way Thought Robot and Mandrakk are clearly above multiversal and are meta.

Edit: Though currently, after his fall through the Dark Multiverse and fate in Unexpected, he is likely much, much weaker now. With Monitor-Mind pulling away and abandoning him he is now fully part of the story of the Flaw. So he isn't that level anymore and in this current hyper-story, he probably never was.

That's all I have to say on the matter.

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It's clear you really are intending on lowballing the meta aspect of Morrison's stories, denying their significance and how they work

Not really, it's just that meta has a different meaning in Battleboarding than it does in reviewing fiction. You said you don't really battleboard.

You clearly deny all of Morrison's interviews while hypocritically assert yours with Snyder

It's not hypocritical at all, and I've explained that pretty clearly. My interview with Snyder was solely meant to clarify ambiguity in an on-panel situation. The Morrison interviews are used to claim Overvoid is literally the comic book page, which is unsupported by anything in the text.

which you repeatedly disregard as "vague" despite it (combined with the context from the story) explicitly proving the metafictional nature of this story.

It's vague because we as readers are given literally no definition for hyperstory.

The new scan from Unexpected adds to the fabricated Nil history where he investigated the Multiverse as the Monitors were aware of it, but does not affect the higher one above it which remains untouched by the infection of story.

It's a decent enough theory, but it's unsupported by the text. We're given no indication that the "infection of story" somehow obfuscates Mandrakk's true origin in Final Crisis, and we're told explicitly the opposite by Zillo Valla and Superman.

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@deagonx:

It's vague because we as readers are given literally no definition for hyperstory.

We aren't given a definition outright but it is described and given actions: "self-assembling" "trying to destroy me" "living story". Story here isn't being used figuratively like in some cases. It's a literal story that's alive and is making conscious actions that TR defeats due to him being an embodiment of a "better" story.

All of which you still fail to acknowledge. Combine these with the other details of the origins and statements in and out of the book and it's clear that there is most certainly a meta element being used to describe the natures and capabilities of these two characters.

It's a decent enough theory,

It's not a theory, I'm just telling you what the book says. It's all right there.

but it's unsupported by the text.

It's literally all from the text.

We're given no indication that the "infection of story" somehow obfuscates Mandrakk's true origin in Final Crisis

It's all right there in the pages man. The story he's infected with becomes the history of a race of hyper gods. An entire history, an entire past, made from that infection. Now Dax has a past where he had a lover and a son before he was contaminated.

We can see it even clearer on TR's side. We see it forming in the Overvoid after the interaction between Probe and Flaw. The next page after the story spreads and creates Nil, it's now inside Nil and people now believe it to be made by Dax (which could definitely be true inside this story).

and we're told explicitly the opposite by Zillo Valla and Superman.

Where and what exactly are you referring to?

All they know is that Dax was the first son of Monitor. But they don't know that Dax originally probed the Multiverse before the story of Nil even existed. The very fact that Dax has Zillo as a mate and Nix as a son before being contaminated and consumed confirms he was given a new history. We don't even necessarily see the in-story origin of the Monitors. They just came to be. This can easily reconcile with them being from Mar Novu.

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@earthmine5248:

We aren't given a definition outright but it is described and given actions: "self-assembling" "trying to destroy me" "living story".

That's not how words work lol. A self-assembling machine tells us it's a machine that is self-assembling. It doesn't define the word machine. A self-assembling machine trying to destroy you likewise doesn't define the word machine. Assuming the "living story" line is meant to define hyperstory further complicates things. In what way is a story alive?

It's not a theory, I'm just telling you what the book says

Lol. It says none of that. If it did, you would have proven it by now and I would have accepted it.

It's all right there in the pages man. The story he's infected with becomes the history of a race of hyper gods.

Okay, but you're saying the probe story is still canon, and that the new origin for Mandrakk is just the "story" that he was given when he was infected, this is directly contradicted on panel.

All they know is that Dax was the first son of Monitor. But they don't know that Dax originally probed the Multiverse before the story of Nil even existed.

"You were the part of Monitor that felt contaminated by the multiverse"

The very fact that Dax has Zillo as a mate and Nix as a son before being contaminated and consumed confirms he was given a new history.

Except Zillo still knew who he was after he was contaminated. Dax still knew who Zillo was. This story-contamination amnesia theory is not support in the comic books. It's a decent enough theory, but it relies mostly on speculation and inferrence.

This can easily reconcile with them being from Mar Novu.

Yes. Mandrakk and his fellow Nil Monitors are from Mar Novu.

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@deagonx:

That's not how words work lol.

What exactly are you accusing me of? I think you're confused. I never once said that those descriptions give it a definition. I said it doesn't have a definition but we are given traits and actions that describe what "hyper-story" is. I find it disrespectful for you to unnecessarily act very smug on this. It's either you didn't get what I said or you're purposefully misinterpreting it.

Assuming the "living story" line is meant to define hyperstory further complicates things. In what way is a story alive?

It's self-aware and is consciously trying to commit an action (destroy TR, all of Creation through Mandrakk) as it writes itself and in itself, everything ends with Mandrakk. This story and its ending is referred to many times by Ultraman and Mandrakk himself. But Superman beats that story. Twice. Once in Superman Beyond and another time at the end of the main seires. That's all from the text and really all we need to know here.

This essentially is a story about stories. Morrison in interviews would further describe them as ideas fighting against each other. The story of evil winning and annihilating (Mandrakk) everything and the story of the heroes/Superman saving the day (Thought Robot). You seriously can't continue to deny the meta stuff after this. There it is on text in the books supporting what Morrison says they are.

If it did, you would have proven it by now and I would have accepted it.

It did it say it and I did prove it, but you're either misinterpreting things due to your close-minded bias or you're deliberately trolling in denial like the others say. I'm assuming its the former.

Again I'm just using what the book says and shows.

"You were the part of Monitor that felt contaminated by the multiverse"

The Monitors didn't say that. Superman in TR did. Thanks to the book in Limbo he learned about the "true"/meta probe story. And as I already proved, he's the only one who's self-aware enough to know about the existence of (and the fact that they're all in) the self-assembling hyper-story that is Final Crisis.

Except Zillo still knew who he was after he was contaminated. Dax still knew who Zillo was. This story-contamination amnesia theory is not support in the comic books. It's a decent enough theory, but it relies mostly on speculation and inferrence.

I'm not sure how any of that proves otherwise at all. Of course Zillo knew Dax and Dax knew Zillo. Why wouldn't they?

As the book shows, the "true"/meta origin is him being a singular probe made by Monitor-Mind to investigate The Flaw, which contains a fluid meta continuity (living hyper story), where he is infected by story.

Infected with story that spreads unchecked, he gains an in-universe history and origin and that is this: He was Dax Novu, first of the Monitors of Nil, the Radiant One. He mates with Zillo who gave birth to Nix (he has no other sons or mates, meaning the other Monitors didn't actually come from him either). He mapped the cosmos and brought Bleed to Nil but was contaminated by the Bleed. This is where the stories (the meta one and the in universe one) intersect.

Yes. Mandrakk and his fellow Nil Monitors are from Mar Novu.

Yes that is his current in-universe origin made by The Flaw's constantly changing continuity.

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@earthmine5248:

I said it doesn't have a definition but we are given traits and actions that describe what "hyper-story" is

And all those could literally describe a machine. It tells us literally nothing about what this non-word means, which was my entire point.

But Superman beats that story.

And how powerful does that make him relative to other characters in DC, exactly? This question is mostly rhetorical. It's impossible to answer objectively.

You seriously can't continue to deny the meta stuff after this.

I've never denied the meta stuff. You are misunderstanding what meta means in a battleboarding context.

you're either misinterpreting things due to your close-minded bias

If anyone who doesn't make the exact assumptions and inferrences that you do is "close minded" and "biased" then perhaps your evidence isn't as strong as you are saying it is.

The Monitors didn't say that. Superman in TR did.

I'm aware. It proves my point all the same, being contaminated didn't obfuscate his true origin.

Of course Zillo knew Dax and Dax knew Zillo. Why wouldn't they?

You're suggesting that his contamination re-wrote his story, but Zillo knew him pre-contamination.

As the book shows, the "true"/meta origin is him being a singular probe made by Monitor-Mind infected by story.

At which point he became Mandrakk.

Yes that is his current in-universe origin

Now you get it! It's a retcon!

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@deagonx:

And all those could literally describe a machine. It tells us literally nothing about what this non-word means, which was my entire point.

A living self-assembling story actively manipulating itself so a being inside of it dies? Sure. That tells us absolutely nothing and could describe anything /s.

And how powerful does that make him relative to other characters in DC, exactly? This question is mostly rhetorical. It's impossible to answer objectively.

Not entirely impossible no. It's pretty much plot or reality manipulation on a higher than Multiversal scale.

Note, Hyper-Story contains and manipulates the entire Multiverse, which itself is a story.

So that puts him higher than anything that can't manipulate reality on that level back at him. Essentially you need omnipotents, multiversal reality warpers (something like the Miracle Machine which can change reality on a Multiversal scale) and meta beings to put it on that level. Certainly not as low as you said they are previously.

I've never denied the meta stuff. You are misunderstanding what meta means in a battleboarding context.

You denied the metafictional relationships, natures and powers of the story and characters, lowballing them to be straightforward and denying any significance of the meta aspects.

I'm aware. It proves my point all the same, being contaminated didn't obfuscate his true origin.

Did you forget to read the rest of that paragraph?

It absolutely did. Only beings who read the book learned about the meta/true origin. Only TR was able to feel the nature of the hyper story that was changing itself.

You're suggesting that his contamination re-wrote his story, but Zillo knew him pre-contamination.

Did you even try to read and comprehend my summarized response there?

Before the contamination in the higher reality of Overvoid, there was no Zillo. Read the book yourself, she and the other monitors and their entire history together came to existence after story infected him and spread. When that happened it created this new history where he was part of race where he even procreated. I already gave you a summary of both.

At which point he became Mandrakk.

Ahh yes. Alright, let's say he became Mandrakk right after being first contaminated by story after being sent as a probe by Monitor-Mind. When did he procreate with Zillo? When did the race came to be? He doesn't have time to do all of that if it's one continuous story because the initial infection was before Nil even existed, so no, no it's two stories:

The meta origin story, where he was a singular probe sent to investigate the Flaw. No Monitor Race, no Nil, no mate no son.

The in-universe orign story retroactively created by the infection, where he was a part of a Monitor Race that existed for eons, where he had a lover and son before being corrupted into Mandrakk.

Now do you understand? Because from this reply I sincerely don't think you do. You seem to be really confused on the concept behind the story within a story and the story that was created from the infection.

Now you get it! It's a retcon!

Don't insult me. It's clear you don't understand my entire point. The DC Multiverse/Flaw is a living story that naturally changes its ever fluid continuity, retconning itself time and time again and is self-aware of these retcons. Nil is one of those retcons.

Monitor-Mind and the Probe originally existed outside of all of that retroactive continuity, but when the latter went inside, it was assimilated into its story. Made into a slave to a hyper story where he was assigned a backstory and the role of villain.

Now do you get it? Retcons are part of the plot in these stories.

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Sure. That tells us absolutely nothing and could describe anything /s.

Lol.

It's pretty much plot or reality manipulation on a higher than Multiversal scale

Sure would be cool if there were evidence of that.

Note, Hyper-Story contains and manipulates the entire Multiverse, which itself is a story.

Cool theory I suppose.

You denied the metafictional relationships, natures and powers of the story and characters, lowballing them to be straightforward and denying any significance of the meta aspects.

I've never denied the meta stuff. You are misunderstanding what meta means in a battleboarding context.

It absolutely did. Only beings who read the book learned about the meta/true origin.

And why would the Nil Monitors somehow not have access to that information?

Before the contamination in the higher reality of Overvoid, there was no Zillo

Okay. You said it was before the contamination, now it isn't.

The in-universe orign story retroactively created by the infection

Is your goal to exhaust me with fan theories?

Don't insult me. It's clear you don't understand my entire point. The DC Multiverse/Flaw is a living story that naturally changes its ever fluid continuity, retconning itself time and time again and is self-aware of these retcons. Nil is one of those retcons.

Monitor-Mind and the Probe originally existed outside of all of that retroactive continuity, but when the latter went inside, it was assimilated into its story. Made into a slave to a hyper story where he was assigned a backstory and the role of villain.

Now do you get it? Retcons are part of the plot in these stories.

I've understood your theory from the beginning, I just don't care to engage with it very seriously because it relies on so much inferrence. And it's based on a lot of things that are no longer canon.

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@deagonx:

Sure would be cool if there were evidence of that.

There is...right there....

He's fighting a story he's part of, a story that's supposed to end where he loses, and he wins.

Cool theory I suppose.

It's not a theory. The Hyper-Story is a story literally written to involve the DC Multiverse, with the ending of the story being the totality of existence being consumed. TR beat that story. That's on the book, that's the author's intention.

I've never denied the meta stuff. You are misunderstanding what meta means in a battleboarding context

Did you seriously repeat a response? That's completely non-sensical in relation to my reply (and lazy). You denied that the meta stuff has any significance to the story or the powers of the characters both here and in Reddit. Or are you now denying that you denied?

And why would the Nil Monitors somehow not have access to that information?

It's possible Zillo or another Monitor snuck into limbo and read the book but otherwise without reading the book they wouldn't know. Remember, the whole story of Nil is another creation of the "hyper-story".

Okay. You said it was before the contamination, now it isn't.

So now you admit you're confused and don't get what I'm saying?

Let's simplify it a bit. Take note the following explanation is not "theory". It's straight from the book.Think of two realities, two timelines, two stories.

Reality A: This is a reality that essentially exists outside the stories of the Flaw. Essentially, a story outside DC canon. There is no Monitor Race, just Monitor-Mind. It sends only one probe, Dax Novu, to investigate the Flaw (DC) and in doing so it becomes infected with story. We see this on the pages and on the text itself, no inference/theory.The story spreads and it creates a new history (exact word used, definition of "history": a series of past events connected with someone or something) changing the probe and giving it a new past which is part of:

Reality B: A lower reality that exists in the confines of the Flaw (DC Canon). In this reality created by the infection, Dax is given a new past before the contamination. One we only see after the probe of Reality A is contaminated (again from the book, no given appearance to the rest of the race until after the story infection and creation of history from that). Here, the probe was Dax Novu, he has a lover, Zillo Valla and they have a son named Nix. They're part of a race of hyper gods that now has eons of history when it didn't exist before in Reality A (all taken from the book). Dax here is then known by the Monitors to have gone in bravely to map the cosmos (which is different from Reality A where he investigated the Flaw without their existence and without them possibly knowing). He came back bringing Bleed to Nil (said so on page) which he definitely couldn't have done back in Reality A where there was no Nil.

Now I'm sure if you actually tried to understand this you would. It's the same as how Batman Year One could be in Batman's past when it was a story created decades after his original debut.

Is your goal to exhaust me with fan theories?

No but it's clearly your goal to exhaust yourself trying to deny all of this without even properly understanding.

I've understood your theory from the beginning,

Dude, you clearly proved you didn't when you asked that question earlier.

I just don't care to engage with it very seriously because it relies on so much inferrence.

Not much inference, mostly just proper understanding of the story that you deny.

And it's based on a lot of things that are no longer canon.

That's just it. The Probe story was NEVER in DC canon. Monitor-Mind is outside of DC's stories. The Nil story, an entire reality and history fabricated by the Flaw, was the "canon" story.

That's so simple to understand yet you refuse to do so because you won't accept the ideas behind the nature of Overvoid and how DC and Morrison uses retcons.

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There is...right there....

He's fighting a story he's part of, a story that's supposed to end where he loses, and he wins.

I'm talking about the multiversal part.

The Hyper-Story is a story literally written to involve the DC Multiverse, with the ending of the story being the totality of existence being consumed.

That's based on a lot of speculation. The sole instance of the term hyper-story is a one off unconnected to any of the aspects of Final Crisis that you are suggesting.

That's completely non-sensical in relation to my reply (and lazy).

It's meant to be lazy. I already responded to it, so I just copy and pasted it.

It's possible Zillo or another Monitor snuck into limbo and read the book but otherwise without reading the book they wouldn't know.

I mean, Rox Ogama and Ultraman both literally read the book. There was no "a-ha" revelation that occurred. They didn't find out any new information about Dax Novu.

That's just it. The Probe story was NEVER in DC canon

I'm referring to real life.

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@deagonx: Okay. What makes you think the Hyper Story isn't Multiversal? It's literally all about Mandrakk winning and all other stories in the DC Multiverse being eaten by him, until Mandrakk is the only thing left in the end.

That's reality/plot manipulation that affects the entire Multiverse, Orrery to Source Wall and all of its stories.

It's meant to be lazy.

I got that. And no you have not properly responded to either.

Lie all you want, you spent several replies with me and others in multiple sites denying it.

I mean, Rox Ogama and Ultraman both literally read the book. There was no "a-ha" revelation that occurred. They didn't find out any new information about Dax Novu.

Weakest argument you've made so far. What were they supposed to say? What makes you think they didn't?

Rox became Mandrakk's pawn and already was at the beginning of FC, then became the new Mandrakk himself.

Ultraman is like Superman. They didn't even know about Nil before. What makes you think he cares enough to say "oh the Nil Monitors think their story is the highest reality when even their story was made in response to another higher reality". He doesn't care, only that Mandrakk wins in the end.

I'm referring to real life.

In "real life", "canon" means nothing and they're all equally fictional (see I can straw man too). Within the story of the comic, the story of the probe is separate from the stories of The Flaw which is meant to contain all of DC Continuity. If you mean that it's also from a comic published from DC comics than yes that's true.

Either way, that's beside my point. Just answer me here, do you, or do you still not get it?

I already typed two long explanations and I'm NOT doing it that in depth again until you actually read and understand it. It's clear you didn't last time when you kept asking questions and making points that make no sense if you really understood.

The story of Monitor-Mind's single probe was always outside the fluid continuity of DC.

The story of Dax being one of many Monitors in Nil is inside that retconnable part of DC canon.

You can't reject an argument you don't understand and you definitely shouldn't arrogantly claim understanding something it when you don't. That's not how productive debate is done.

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Okay. What makes you think the Hyper Story isn't Multiversal? It's literally all about Mandrakk winning and all other stories in the DC Multiverse being eaten by him, until Mandrakk is the only thing left in the end

You have to prove it's multiversal, and you haven't. Nothing suggests Mandrakk was going to be "the only thing" left in the end.

Lie all you want, you spent several replies with me and others in multiple sites denying it.

I've never denied the meta stuff. You are misunderstanding what meta means in a battleboarding context

Weakest argument you've made so far. What were they supposed to say? What makes you think they didn't?

The fact is that none of these people seem to have this information.

Plus, Rox Ogama was literally being controlled by Mandrakk when he read the book, and yet in the Unexpected he still says that the Monitors are the ones who sent him, not Overvoid. He clearly didn't forget anything about Final Crisis, which means the probe story is no longer canon.

In "real life", "canon" means nothing and they're all equally fictional

Canon is what actually happens in a fictional setting. Non-canon works are basically fan-fiction. Retcons can retroactively remove things from canon, like the probe story. It never happened in DC period.

I already typed two long explanations

Yep I remember, I thought it was kind of weird, since I already knew what you were saying, but you have a bad habit of thinking other people don't understand you when they simply disagree and you haven't shown evidence.

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@deagonx:

You have to prove it's multiversal, and you haven't. Nothing suggests Mandrakk was going to be "the only thing" left in the end.

With all due respect you're argument here is really stupid and I almost believe you are actually trolling.

The hyper story essentially placed Mandrakk as the ultimate destroyer of all DC existence, that's the Multiverse and all stories and all of existence within given an ultimate fate. That includes everything in the Multiversal map and all stories (past to present) within. Grant Morrison himself says the entire multiverse was being sucked dry of stories and near the end of the book before his defeat Mandrakk himself says at the end that this was the end of all stories. Of course he was wrong, but that was because of TR and the Miracle Machine (a literal plot device which gave the story a happy ending according to Nix Uotan, and rebuilt the Multiverse).

Look, even if you ignore all that, it's clear that Final Crisis is meant to be the ultimate Multiversal level crisis that was destroying everything and on a scale that was meant to be above every Crisis before it. Darkseid is a lower being, a living idea god that was already destroying the Orrery himself. Mandrakk is supposed to be far more powerful than him and was sad multiple times by multiple characters to be capable of destroying all of existence from Orrery to Monitor Sphere. That puts him at higher multiversal at the very least. If you can't accept that then you are being irrational.

I've never denied the meta stuff. You are misunderstanding what meta means in a battleboarding context

The laziness and disrespect is very insulting. I already responded to this line multiple times.

You act like a kid trying to cover his ears and repeat nonsense in denial because he can't actually make a good answer.

The fact is that none of these people seem to have this information.

What information? Says who? You're seriously making stuff up now.

If you mean the info on the probe, I already gave you a response to that. How do you know they didn't? Why would they say anything if they did?

in the Unexpected he still says that the Monitors are the ones who sent him, not Overvoid. He clearly didn't forget anything about Final Crisis

What makes you think he didn't forget anything? If you read Unexpected again he doesn't seem to remember anything past falling into the Overvoid and ending up in the Dark Multiverse. That's the first thing he talks about when freed and the latest thing he recounts. He doesn't even bring up Ultraman becoming his servant or him confronting Superman a second time.

Clearly Unexpected treated Rox as a different Mandrakk. No big deal, that could easily be explained several ways. Whether Rox Mandrakk being killed prevented those memories from going to Dax Mandrakk, or if the Miracle Machine resetting reality erased those memories.

I would like to add though, even in Unexpected where he was stared of Bleed and only fed on the literal blood of some characters instead, he was treated as a Multiversal threat who could potentially destroy all creation if he got his hands on Bleed again.

he probe story is no longer canon.

Again, the probe story was never canon to the DC Multiverse in the first place. The Nil story where he was part of a race and had a family was. That was the story the Flaw made for him. The Hyper-story has complete control over him. It could retcon and do anything so he won't remember anyway.

Retcons can retroactively remove things from canon, like the probe story. It never happened in DC period.

Exactly, in Final Crisis, the concept of retcons and canon are used as plot points. The probe story is outside of DC's story/canon/continuity. The fluid nature of DC's continuity allowed it to retroactively give him a new canon story without him knowing and can rewrite and change him at will for the sake of story.

Heck in general DC is very self-aware of its fluid continuity and changes. All previous canons have been acknowledged to exist or have existed before. That's also one of the larger points of Doomsday Clock.

Yep I remember, I thought it was kind of weird, since I already knew what you were saying, but you have a bad habit of thinking other people don't understand you when they simply disagree and you haven't shown evidence.

See, this is where you show your arrogance. You're hilariously wrong.

The fact that you said "Zillo knew him pre-contamination" and "Okay. You said it was before the contamination, now it isn't." show you are being confused but your stuck up pride and stubbornness won't admit it.

I can recount my explanation again to you but you either still won't get it or refuse to either due to pride or due to bias against it. If you do, then explain it back to me in your own words including how those above questions are easily answered when you do.

But if you need hint, Zillo and every other Monitor are products of that origin retconned by the infection. His entire past with them is made from that, and it's a past that can be continuously changed by the Flaw that spawned it in the first place. The Monitors in this story could have easily been the ones to send him to investigate the Multiverse since they existed before the Bleed contamination in this story.

I guess you can say there two moments where he was infected (when really it's 1 moment that exists in both realities). One that lead to the creation of his new past, and one that lead to him becoming Mandrakk. With that there are "two" times he investigated the Flaw. Once as the probe and another to map the Multiverse and bring Bleed to Nil. But again. In reality he only investigated it once, but the event remained intact and given new context under the reality of Nil.

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@deagonx: something's come up and I'm once again deciding to listen to the others. I don't think you're trolling on purpose but it's clear you're not going to change your mind no matter what.

That being said, my last reply to you has several points you've failed to respond to or acknowledge. Maybe next time, you actually do try to understand your opponent's arguments and admit when you absolutely don't.

But that time is certainly not here.

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#193  Edited By Deagonx

@earthmine5248:

The hyper story essentially placed Mandrakk as the ultimate destroyer of all DC existence

Sure would be cool if you had evidence for this.

Look, even if you ignore all that, it's clear that Final Crisis is meant to be the ultimate Multiversal level crisis that was destroying everything and on a scale that was meant to be above every Crisis before it.

Sure, but that was because of Darkseid, not Mandrakk.

The laziness and disrespect is very insulting. I already responded to this line multiple times.

And I responded to your "you're denying the meta aspects" line multiple times.

How do you know they didn't? Why would they say anything if they did?

The fact is that none of these people seem to have this information.

What makes you think he didn't forget anything? If you read Unexpected again he doesn't seem to remember anything past falling into the Overvoid and ending up in the Dark Multiverse.

Those are the things he decides to bring up, but there's literally no evidence he lost his memory or something. Mandrakk said he was sent by the monitors after reading the book of Limbo.

Clearly Unexpected treated Rox as a different Mandrakk

Not clear at all, that's an assumption you are being forced to make to maintain the integrity of your baseless theories.

Again, the probe story was never canon to the DC Multiverse in the first place

I am obviously talking about real life.

Exactly, in Final Crisis, the concept of retcons and canon are used as plot points. The probe story is outside of DC's story/canon/continuity.

First, no they aren't. Second, I'm talking about real life DC canon. The probe story is no longer canon to DC comic books, in real life. You are aware comics aren't real, yes?

I guess you can say there two moments where he was infected (when really it's 1 moment that exists in both realities). One that lead to the creation of his new past, and one that lead to him becoming Mandrakk.

Again, it's a decent enough theory, but there's nothing to support it on panel.

I don't think you're trolling on purpose but it's clear you're not going to change your mind no matter what.

There's no real reason to change my mind. You've presented a theory. What am I going to change my mind about? Evidence for your theory isn't going to magically appear. I've read FC, the idea that Mandrakk lost his memory of his true origin is unsubstantiated. The idea that he lost his memory between FC and Unexpected is unsubstantiated. The idea that only people who read the book know his "true" origin is unsubstantiated. This is a plot aspect that simply doesn't exist in the comic book.

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Couldn't you have asked him where's the Presence from all this crap going on?

I'm starting to wonder whether he currently exists in DC.

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@happylife1996: I think he does, Synder is probably planing for something big to involve the Presence. It might explain why he's been basically untouched since 2018.

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@deagonx: Like I said I've wasted plenty of time with you. Your disrespect towards me and others have not helped in motivating me in continuing this discussion further. But I do feel like I owe you a proper final response.

Sure, but that was because of Darkseid, not Mandrakk.

Darkseid was responsible for the potential destruction of the Orrery. Nil's destruction and everything left in between was Mandrakk's, who is far above Darkseid.

Evidence for Mandrakk being fated in this Hyper Story to destroy all of existence is everywhere. Zillo says he would destroy Nil and along with it everything that exists below. He and Ultraman say the Book's story has him be the one who wins in the end, meaning he was fated by this story to succeed in what Zillo feared. Superman defeated him and that story with TR and the Miracle Machine.

there's literally no evidence he lost his memory or something.

and there's no evidence he retained them. He never once alludes to Rox's time as Mandrakk. No evidence he remembers that.

I am obviously talking about real life.

First, no they aren't. Second, I'm talking about real life DC canon. The probe story is no longer canon to DC comic books, in real life. You are aware comics aren't real, yes?

I obviously understand that, don't be even more of an arrogant condescending jerk.

It's you that doesn't understand how canon and continuity is treated in DC.

Final Crisis plays with the concepts of stories and continuity, being self-aware of them. Layers of continuity are used such as how I explain it. In here, there are clearly two stories given on how Dax Novu became Mandrakk. Him being a singular probe was one. When he became infected with story, he gained a new one where there existed a race of monitors. All that's on the page, on text and art. Not at all "baseless".

DC in general acknowledges previous canons and retcons actually occurring and given in-universe reasons for why, ultimately acknowledging all of it as "real". More on that here. If anything there's more proof that all these new cosmologies are in universe retcons of The Flaw like they are in real life, retcons of DC. For example, in John Byrne's Genesis event, the Source Wall was destroyed and recreated. In fact the first prisoners of the recreated wall became Darkseid, Ares, Arzaz and the Nameless One. They became the only ones there for a while. No Perpetua, no Totality, no Apex Predators. That was an important story for the New Gods Pre-Flashpoint as that's where Highfather died. That continuity has specifically been acknowledged more than any other.

Perpetua is a retcon. Retcons and stories are creations of The Flaw. Just like how Nil and the story behind it is. Eventually she'll be retconned like the others in a future story. The ultimate truth being that Superman in Action Comics #1 created the DC Universe as we know it as acknowledged by Doomsday Clock (which in a way makes its scope bigger than all of this). DC treats all of its stories past and present as canon in a why, only changed and overwritten by causes inside the DC Universe.

What's my point?

That either way, there was a time when the original story was canon, and therefore that story can be acknowledged through several means by beings who can look back at previous versions of continuity (like Dr. Manhattan or in this case, us readers who read the story).

Arguing using that previous cosmology and version of the character is just as valid, especially in a fictional universe that treats its continuity in a special way like this.

Which leads to an old point. If we are going to be fair, and look at TR and Mandrakk from their original story and canon, they were at the top (besides arguably the Presence and Archangels). But yes in the current one, they are not which I already acknowledged multiple times so really I don't know why in the world you even brought up the changes in canon again, when were already debating them using Pre-Retcon Mandrakk.

But even now, in the current continuity, Unexpected treats Mandrakk as a potential threat to all of existence should he again consume that much Bleed. So much so the only thing they could do was turn him into a consumer of something else instead of killing him. Heck even at his weakened state Barbatos (who killed World Forger before Metal) couldn't kill him.

I've said all I wanted to say to you on this. I've meant no harm, and I do think we could share a lot of discussions about other things, but the way you treated me and others here and in other sites show your own lack of productive intent.

Good day, hope we discuss something else next time.

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@happylife1996: @anaverageguy123:

The Presence has been acknowledged in Tynion's JLD, Heaven and the Spectre appeared in the JL Annual and Doom War Finale has Spectre cameo with the Quintessence who found Perpetua's weakness, so Snyder didn't forget he exists. He's actually a Spectre fan too and apparently pitched a series before.

On how the Presence fits in the current cosmology, I posted this on Reddit. Scott and James actually do a really good job leaving things open.

We get hints that Perpetua's job was never to do what she did. Creating the Multiverse? Maybe but if so she was supposed to leave or disappear by then as Mar Novu theorized because there are no counterparts of her that he could see anywhere else. After that it, was World Forger's job to make new worlds not her. But even he and the brothers have no idea where Earth (not the Prime Universe itself, which they know and refers to Universe 0 not 33) came from. Perpetua didn't originally create Earth and humans either, she says she found them and merged them with the Martians instead of creating them that way. And in the end the Cosmic Raptor has the whole Multiverse Reality reset to Pre-Pre-Crisis where there was no other universes but one. One universe aligned with Justice instead of Doom. Mar then says he and Mobius would get reborn again there with new histories.

So really, it's still the Presence's job to be the real God and creator. The Judeo-Christian God made His creation to be good, which fits with the Source wanting the Multiverse to be Justice and not Doom by nature. Some older beliefs also say God created the universe by shaping pre-existing primordial matter which fits here. Perpetua was never meant to stay or meddle with the Multiverse. Her job was basically make its foundation and leave it to the Presence to shape it into His creation. Even her children likely aren't even supposed to exist since they kind of lost their jobs when reality reset.

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Deagonx

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#200  Edited By Deagonx

@earthmine5248:

Darkseid was responsible for the potential destruction of the Orrery. Nil's destruction and everything left in between was Mandrakk's, who is far above Darkseid.

It's debatable whether or not Nil was actually going to be destroyed, but even so, Nil being a "capstone" for the rest of the Multiverse doesn't necessitate that destroyed it requires the same amount of power as literally destroying a multiverse. That said, there were only 52 universes during Final Crisis. This was said on panel several times.

and there's no evidence he retained them

Not how that works. You're the one claiming he forgot. Show your evidence.

It's you that doesn't understand how canon and continuity is treated in DC.

Because you've shown no evidence for it, and I'm referring to the real life concept of canon.

When he became infected with story, he gained a new one where there existed a race of monitors. All that's on the page, on text and art.

Nothing about his personal origin story being written is on the page. It's literally a theory you came up with on the spot when you realized his origin was retconned on-panel in The Unexpected.