James Tynion/Scott Snyder clarify cosmology. Mar Novu -> Monitors, 6th Dimension > Multiversity Map

LunchyPete from the DC Cosmology sub on reddit handled the editting, so that we could blur out the names and faces of basically everyone that wasn't Scott Snyder, and mute out the moments where I said my name or I was addressed by name.

As part of a charity event, Scott Snyder did a Q&A with fans to support the Hero Initiative which is dedicated to supporting struggling comic book shops. As I'm sure you can imagine, they are one industry that is extremely affected by this pandemic and many will never open their doors again. Donate if you have the means to: https://www.heroinitiative.org/

https://vimeo.com/413265257

It's about 12 minutes long, but I can summarize the contents.

When asked about this specific scene:

Gallery

Scott said he did not write that scene (which I knew, I just figured he might have an idea where they were going with it) but he did call James Tynion on the phone who explained that the "many aspects" are indeed the Monitor race, which he said appeared in DCU: Brave New World and was then delved into further in Final Crisis, which tells us that at least in the opinion of DC's authors the Monitor race is just one single race.

James also explained that, in his interpretation, Nil was not destroyed and then recreated. I asked him specifically about the phrase "Nil was formed with the current universal structure" from the same scene in relation to that theory and he said it's the same Nil we know from Final Crisis, just devoid of life.

Then Scott explained that he sees the 6th Dimension as being above the Multiversity Map with the "source wall" being the barrier between the rest of the Multiversity Map and the 6th Dimension, which coincides with this scene:

And of course, we know where the Source Wall is in the map relative to Nil (which is doubly confirmed by the fact that Mar Novu's aspects occupied Nil)

As far as DC scaling is concern, this tells us a couple of things definitively.

The Sixth Dimension is the new top tier of DC (that we have seen)

Monitor Brothers > Monitor Race

We did it boys, the monitors are no more!

@michaeljulius Eat your ass out!

Why? Synder didn't confirm anything you guys said here rofl. Snyder agreed with most of us on this and not you guys haha! The only thing he agreed with was that Nil was not destroyed and even then, that was his interpretation.

But, a genuine ty to Deagon for supporting that charity, that was super nice of you.

1:00 - Mar Novu = Nil Monitors Topic of JLA 27.

Synder "I think I know the answer, lets ask James. *he calls james*,

James "This is something you can read in different ways, unless the creator absolutely makes it canon on the page, this is my interpretation of the events. So, that is my above and beyond caveot of the high level cosmic stuff, but the way that I saw it working was you have the original Monitor Mar, after COIE split into aspects and those were from Final Crisis. The idea when the universe split into the Monitors, which was from I think Brave New World

(right here, Deagon and his friends were debunked 100% and have no ground to stand on anymore) and then was delved into more in Final Crisis.)

Immediate problem. 1, his interpretation. 2, there were infinite Monitors in FC and not 52. So, they debunked themselves via their own version of this story that did not keep in line with the original. Seriously, did you two even listen to them talk? Or, do you think any response from them, even one proving you wrong was actually in favor of your viewpoints? Lets continue.

4:52 "Nil was formed with the current Multiversal Structure topic and some peopel thought Nil was destroyed at the end of Final Crisis. Is this the same Nil?"

James - This is the same Nil, but there is no life on it. The destructive force left no life there but then Mar Novu went back there to hide until he was found in that story line.

Immediate problem. 1, Mar Novu was reformed in Dark Knight Metal and then died after Torture. He then for no reason re-appeared and went to hide on Nil. You debunked nothing here and just proved this is their own story that doesn't follow the last series at all. Oopsie.

7:00 - The 6th dimension talk, DC Multiverse Map, where is the 6th Dimension

Snyder - Well, I spoke to grand about that and its hard, you know its funny, you know, I was talking to him about it and I want to visualize the map and hes like the map is always such a pain in the ass because none of it would be spacial or time based (Rian Hughes already said this) You really cannot do a map beyond Imagination, its totally counter intuative, so its hard to place that layer. The way I like to think of it, again it doesn't really make sense geographically was that it existed was like because the 6th dimension is like a place that exists beyond imagination that are capable of things we cannot phathom, was that it was a the top of the sphere, like the beings that wind up coming down that are responsible for writing the rules of things, and planets that bubble up from the dark come up through the house of heroes and all of that from the Dark Multiverse, into the main multiverse and the house of heroes stands at the center of it, its more for things that arent supposed to die, die, or killed, they kind of come back through that and are responsible for forming the sorta major laws of what is going to come into the multiverse from that outter realm. Not like a bubble wrap, but kind of like a (dome) spherical layer.

Deagon - So that was above the Source Wall and Monitor Sphere?

Synder - No, the source wall to me is the actual boundary of it before it was broken.

* bit later after going back over

"and then someone might take that (another writer) and do it in a different way and that'll be right. We wanted to go past the source wall and if we do that and break it, we have to put something behind it (Monitors)

Ty Scott for Confirming the 6th Dimension is the top of the Monitor Sphere. Debunked Deagon and his mates hard core on that. In his canon, he considers Nil inside the Source Wall, when it was explicited shown to be exterior of the Source Wall in Final Crisis. Again, I was correct on this theory and you were not. Synder himself debunked you. Congrats.

@sagathelegend@xearesay@el_mago@fyron@einefaust Deagon debunked literally nothing of his own insistent theories and literally confirmed EVERYTHING we said.

Scott didn't agree with him on anything.

1. Scott and James said it was their interpretation, which conflicts with Final Crisis' lore.

2. The Source Wall was the edge of the 6th Dimension and contained it, not above it, which is exactly what MY theory was in that the Monitor Sphere was the edge beginning of the Source Wall. With it broken, we got to see what is past that, and its the Dark Multiverse and more Bleedspace traveling, of which Mandrakk can contain.

3. Monitors come back regardless of their defeat automatically.

4. Imagination and the 5th Dimension itself is somewhere below the Monitor Sphere.

Mrballins, you didn't even watch this video did you? :\ This is basically almost everything Team Monitor has said for a while. The only confirmations in this were that these two writers had their own interpretation, which we already said many times, that Nil was not Destroyed and that the Monitors are splits of Mar Novu. We knew this already so how is this you winning?

Never before have I seen it. Someone paid to debunk themselves. HAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHHAHA

Nobody can ever say anyone in DC > Monitors ever again. Snyder confirmed these Monitors are the rule makers, the existence makers and everything came from them. This Presence/Endless/Imps > Monitors is officially debunked.

Synder directly says the 6th Dimension is the absolute height of the Multiverse and the "edge of the sphere" the Monitor Sphere. That going past the Source Wall lead you to the Dark Multiverse, which required travel through Bleedspace...and just one team can contain all of Bleedspace.

That's all she wrote, fellas.

@xearesay said:

"This is something you can read in different ways, unless the creator absolutely makes it canon on the page, this is my interpretation of the events. So, that is my above and beyond caveot of the high level cosmic stuff, but the way that I saw it working was you have the original Monitor Mar, after COIE split into aspects and those were from Final Crisis. The idea when the universe split into the Monitors, which was from I think Brave New World."

Tynion literally just said nothing is confirmed and this is his interpretation that can be taken in different ways. This is why, author statements about how their work relates to work they did not create is USELESS. They will never give you an official answer because all that's matters is what get published by an editor. And what was published by an editor has clearly not been made officially canon at all. All they can do for you here, is clarify there own work in a manner that doesn't run over another writers stuff.

"Meant to be the same Nil but there is no life left on Nil. The destructive force eliminated all life left there but Mar Novu went back there to hide until he was found in that storyline."

He did not confirm anything that happened in Final Crisis and how the contradictions translate over to the Justice league run. He merely gave you how it's interpreted in his own storyline. Which does not retcon Final Crisis. Like I said before to you. Writers are utilizing the same sandbox while interpreting it differently. Grants Nil was out in the edge of the Overvoid while the 6th dimension is at the top of the cosmic map. Which was more of a set up for things going forward with DC and not what happened in Final Crisis.

GG. Thanks for helping us Deagon. Any new material and author clarification to further understand DC's cosmology is always appreciated.

Irrelevant. His interpretation was canonized in a DC comic book.

there were infinite Monitors in FC and not 52

Okay. He never said 52, and it's irrelevant to what he's saying anyways.

Immediate problem. 1, Mar Novu was reformed in Dark Knight Metal and then died after Torture. He then for no reason re-appeared and went to hide on Nil. You debunked nothing here and just proved this is their own story that doesn't follow the last series at all. Oopsie.

He literally confirmed that it's the same Nil, just wiped out of life.

Ty Scott for Confirming the 6th Dimension is the top of the Monitor Sphere

He didn't say it was the top of the Monitor Sphere, he said it was outside the Source Wall which Nil is inside of.

In his canon, he considers Nil inside the Source Wall, when it was explicited shown to be exterior of the Source Wall in Final Crisis

Multiversity, Grant Morrison's canon, shows that Nil is inside the Source Wall.

Thanks for playing.

1. Scott and James said it was their interpretation, which conflicts with Final Crisis' lore.

Their interpretation made it into a DC comic book, which is canon. Whether or not it conflicts with Final Crisis lore is irrelevant. This is what's known as a retcon, by the way.

2. The Source Wall was the edge of the 6th Dimension and contained it

You've misquoted him. The Source Wall is the barrier between the 6th Dimension and the rest of the Multiversity Map. That is why they were only able to access it once the Source Wall was destroyed.

3. Monitors come back regardless of their defeat automatically.

Only the Monitor Brothers can do this, not FC Monitors.

@michaeljulius:

James: "unless the creator absolutely makes it canon on the page, this is my interpretation of the events."

Deagon: "See guys, I debunked them."

Lmao, okay fellas. Feel free to pretend he didn't absolutely debunk your theories about these scans:

Now we know definitively that this Nil is the same one as Final Crisis, and that the many aspects are the Monitors of Final Crisis.

And this scan:

And we know that this isn't referring to some lower portion of the map. It's above the entire thing, including Nil, which is also implicitly confirmed by the fact that the Nil Monitors are just aspects of Mar Novu.

Lets not forget xear's own take on this:

Whether he considers it his own personal interpretation isn't important. His interpretation was canonized and published via editors in a DC comic book. Which means we know a couple of things about this scene:

The many aspects are definitively referring to the Monitors of Nil.

We also know that Nil is the same as it was during Final Crisis, not moved or repositioned, as far as the author of this scene is concerned.

We also now know that the 6th Dimension is definitively above Nil and the Monitors.

GG. Excited to see the absurd gymnastics you perform to avoid this.

He literally said Monitors are the alphas and that the only thing you were correct on was that Nil was not destroyed. You were not correct on ANYTHINGelse. We were. You have sunk so low on this that when you get debunked by an author, you flip it and say he agreed with you.

You didn't win this. You handed us a giga win and prevented yourself from ever having a win here. You are done. Please stop. I literally typed out almost the entire conversation so there can be no mistaking what was said. And you still say the opposite of what was said!? There is video evidence now and text CC's for it, and you still say the complete opposite of what was said and typed out? We don't even need to debate you anymore! Snyder debunked you on everything.

@michaeljulius:

Topic of Mar being the split Monitors - confirmed, we knew this already, but its their interpretation that conflicts with there being infinite numbers of them after the Crisis. There were not infinite numbers of Mar after the crisis. Did you even read the cosmic map?

That's what is called a retcon.

Topic of Monitors > everyone - CONFIRMED.

Monitor Brothers, not Nil Monitors. But even this isn't really true. The Monitor Brothers aren't greater than Perpetua, who herself is not greater than the Judges of the Source, who are subordinate to the Source.

The Monitor Sphere = the 6th Dimension, the edge of the Sphere.

Patently wrong. The Monitor Sphere is inside the Source Wall. The Sixth Dimension is outside of the Source Wall.

How...how can you possibly even argue this as if you won?

He confirmed in my favor the three issues we sought to clarify.

1. Mar Novu is definitively the progenitor for the Monitor race as seen in Final Crisis. The current authors don't believe there are two sets of Monitors like you claimed.

2. Nil was not destroyed or recreated as far as the current canon is concerned. If it was ever meant to have been destroyed, it was never clearly spelled out and the current authors don't see it that way.

3. The Sixth Dimension is outside of the Source Wall and is definitively above the Monitor Sphere, which is inside of the Source Wall according to Grant Morrison's Multiversity, who's structure is the groundwork of the DC Cosmology expanded by Snyder.

Whether or not they called it their personal interpretation is irrelevant. Their statements alone are not my argument. It's what was canonized into DC by the aforementioned scans, which we now know the definitive meaning behind.

I really can't think of a better way the video call could have gone.

Nil was meant to be the same. Which doesn't matter because what was published states that it was formed with the current universal structure which is clearly not operating the same as Grants where Nil was outside the multiverse in the void and beyond limbo.

Even Nils position in the unexpected which came out the same year this comic was published completely contradicts this notion with Nil being the captstone the multiverse and flowing outside it.

And where was Mandrakk? Dumped into the Dark Multiverse after falling through the Overvoid.

You should have just asked him if CAS Supes or Mandrakk were stronger than Presence.

Authors almost religiously avoided answering direct battleboarding questions. If I'd had to opportunity I would have liked to explore his thoughts about a relationship between The Source (which is definitively above Monitors now) and the Presence.

@xearesay

Nil was meant to be the same. Which doesn't matter because what was published states that it was formed with the current universal structure

This would only matter if we had definitive evidence that the "current universal structure" referred to in JL 2018 was something different from Final Crisis.

same as Grants where Nil was outside the multiverse in the void and beyond limbo.

Grant authored Multiversity, which placed Nil inside the wall. He retconned Final Crisis in that aspect, this is undeniable.

Even Nils position in the unexpected which came out the same year this comic was published completely contradicts this notion with Nil being the captstone the multiverse and flowing outside it.

I don't know what point you're trying to make here. That it was retconned? I'm aware of that. I don't see how your scan supports the idea that Nil was a capstone or anything.

And where was Mandrakk? Dumped into the Dark Multiverse after falling through the Overvoid.

I don't see how this is problematic in relation to the new info.

This is so over. Nobody cares if it's a retcon. We debate PR Beyonder every day and understand he was retconned. Scott and James both confirmed they are doing their one thing. Their interpretation. Said twice each !! Which was our argument from the start. Not yours.

This Monitor debate just got even stronger for us. Infinitely weaker for you. Now you have Snyder and James on the otherwise of your Crisis Squad views too.

@michaeljulius:

We debate PR Beyonder every day and understand he was retconned

Sure, but the default when someone mentions a character is their canon characterization. If someone creates a battle with Pre-Retcon Mandrakk or Pre-Retcon Thought Robot we can discuss their feats and cosmology positioning solely in relation to Final Crisis.

Edit: Since I'm sure this will be miscontrued, when I say "canon characterization" I am referring to DC Canon, not the nonsensical "canon to Final Crisis" thing you keep mentioning.

Scott and James both confirmed they are doing their one thing. Their interpretation

Yep, and their interpretation was canonized into a DC comic book.

This Monitor debate just got even stronger for us. Infinitely weaker for you.

I went into this with the expectation that we would prove Mar Novu was the Nil Monitors based on the "many aspects" line and I did. I sought to prove that the Sixth Dimension was not below Limbo or below Nil, and I have proven that as well. I sought to prove that Nil as we see it these days is not some lower form of Nil, and I have proven that as well.

Not sure where you think it went wrong for me, but we know now definitively that the Monitors are lower in the cosmology than the Monitor Brothers and Perpetua, and by extension the Judges of the Source and the Source.

It was "meant to be the same" however what was official published in the comic states that the "Monitors Sphere was formed with the current universal structure." And that it exist at the "edge of things."

Snyder - "There isn't really a way to do a map when talking about a realm that is beyond imagination. It's totally counter intuitive. So it's hard to place that layer. The way that I like to think of it, even though again it doesn't really make sense geographically, The 6th dimension is the place for beings beyond our imagination that are capable of things we can't fathom. It was at the top of the sphere."

Multiversity guidebook - "And forces beyond imagination were at work."

Monitor Sphere = 6th dimension. GG no re buddy.

however what was official published in the comic states that the "Monitors Sphere was formed with the current universal structure." And that it exist at the "edge of things."

None of that contradicts it's past characterization either way. Like I said, unless we have some reason to argue that the term "universal structure" is referring to something different from Final Crisis, then it's definitively the same Nil. Which is what Tynion said regardless, and what Superman confirmed by recognizing it.

Snyder - "There isn't really a way to do a map when talking about a realm that is beyond imagination. It's totally counter intuitive. So it's hard to place that layer. The way that I like to think of it, even though again it doesn't really make sense geographically, The 6th dimension is the place for beings beyond our imagination that are capable of things we can't fathom. It was at the top of the sphere."

Multiversity guidebook - "And forces beyond imagination were at work."

Beyond imagination is a vague term, and I'm quite certain he wasn't trying to quote the Multiversity approach to it. Plus, there's no reason to assume that phrase refers to the Monitor race without evidence, and that still wouldn't mean they can go to the 6th Dimension.

Monitor Sphere = 6th dimension.

Scott literally said the opposite.

6th Dimension = Outside the Source Wall

Monitor Sphere = Inside the Source Wall

Mxy: Only 4 beings can exist in the Sixth Dimension. Clearly referring to Alpheus, Mobius, Mar Novu, and Perpetua. Which means Nix Uotan can't, and Mandrakk can't. Unless we posit that for some reason Mxy isn't aware of who the Nil Monitors were or Nix and Mandrakk, and that although unstated they too can exist there, which is unsupported.

Plus, Nil definitively isnt the Sixth Dimension. They're treated as separate locations in the Justice League storyline.

So, I watched the video and...why are people still claiming Nil Monitors > Mar Novu? Bruh, Nil monitors are fragments of Mar, this was stated like 2 or 3 times at least. How much concfrimation do you need? Besides, it was pretty explicit in the comic (even with Deageon's interview) that 6th Dimension > Nil, since, ya know, Nil is below the Source wall as per Grant's map, and the 5th dimension was stated to exist outside the Source wall, and the 6th dimension is above that so...

Besides, the interview above clarrifies that this IS the case.

Precisely. There's no longer a way to argue that the Nil Monitors > Mar Novu and theree's no way to argue that Nil > 6th Dimension. The argument for that was based on extremely sketchy logic based on a really bad theory that there are two races of Monitors and the fact that Mxy's fingertips were placed on a certain space on the map. But we know now that the leading DC authors don't believe that there are two races of Monitors, and that the 6th Dimension is beyond the Source Wall which contains the Monitor Sphere/Nil.

@anaverageguy123: These guys have some of the strongest mental gymnastic I know. I haven't watched the interview but their response is exactly like how I expected.

LOL....the guys who defend the monitors are just performing mental gymnatics, judging from this thread.

@shinne: I hope you mean Daegons group was using gymnastics here and not the pro Monitor side. I literally typed out the important bits so there can be no fan interpretation. And of course all they counter with is their own interpretation of the interpretation that James and Scott said they used. Lovely.

The question of if Monitors are DCs alphas is answered. The answer is YES.

Nil Monitors existed beyond the Source Wall. The sixth dimension didn't. That's the end of the argument.

I literally typed out the important bits so there can be no fan interpretation.

Sure, and what they said supports my claims, so...

Monitor sphere is the sixth dimension

Scott said literally the opposite of this. The Monitor Sphere is inside the Source Wall. The Sixth Dimension is outside of it, they cannot be the same thing.

Monitors made the rules. They started existence.

The brothers did, not the Nil Monitors.

The question of if Monitors are DCs alphas is answered. The answer is YES.

Monitor Brothers, not Nil Monitors.

Nil Monitors existed beyond the Source Wall. The sixth dimension didn't.

What? Did you even listen to what he said? The Source Wall is the barrier between the Sixth Dimension and the rest of the Multiverse, which means it is outside of it. This is not true for Nil.

Synder - No, the Source Wall to me is the actual boundary of it, before it was broken.

Which means the Source Wall is between the 6th Dimension and the Multiverse. This is not true for Nil.

Plus, Nil was literally populated with aspects of Mar Novu, so theres no way to argue that Nil > 6th Dimension.

@shinne: AnimeFreak1: Are you challenging me?

Multiversal Naruto solos, Omnipotent Alien X does so as well

@el_mago: MichaelJulius: Are you challenging me?

@anaverageguy123: Lol, that's just wank, not mental gymnastic.

Scott effin said the sixth dimension is at the edge of the sphere of the multiverse. Now stop this fan interpretation. I actually typed this out so nobody can get confused and of course you will say something else entirely. What a crock.

Nil was outside of the source Wall in the other canon. Biding a bridge from the void to the multiverse...past the source wall, dropped through it and landing in another Dark Multiverse l.

Of course you are gonna spin this exactly opposite of how he said it.

Scott effin said the sixth dimension is at the edge of the sphere of the multiverse. Now stop this fan interpretation. I actually typed this out so nobody can get confused and of course you will say something else entirely. What a crock.

Nil was outside of the source Wall in the other canon. Building a bridge from the void to the multiverse...past the source wall, dropped through it and landing in another Dark Multiverse.

Of course you are gonna spin this exactly opposite of how he said it.

Just saw the video, great job my man! Of course The Monitor gang is doing some serious......serious damage control here. It's kinda funny how i expected this to exactly happen. The cognitive dissonance....

@michaeljulius

>The question of if Monitors are DCs alphas is answered. The answer is YES.

Shit like this. You don't ever quit do you?

@shinne: You should see some of the arguments, seem pretty mental gymnastic-like to me haha

Scott effin said the sixth dimension is at the edge of the sphere of the multiverse. Now stop this fan interpretation.

Right, he said the top, and he said the Source Wall was the boundary between it and the rest of the Multiverse. Nil is inside the Source Wall.

Nil was outside of the source Wall in the other canon.

Okay, we aren't discussing whichever other canon you seem to be referring to. We're discussing the canon of DC comics, in which Nil and the Monitor Sphere is inside the Source Wall, and the Sixth Dimension is outside of it and above it.

He literally said the reason that the Sixth Dimension was accessible was because of the destruction of the Source Wall. Nil is on the same side of the wall as Limbo, the God Sphere, and the Orrery of Worlds. The Sixth Dimension definitively is not.

The Monitor Sphere is not the Sixth Dimension.

@enigma22: Yes. Damage control. Of Snyder live on video saying the sixth dimension is not beyond the source wall, but FC Nil was. That Monitors made creation and the rules, nobody else. And that their interpretation of Monitors was being used.

And this is OUR damage control?! Two authors just said just said Monitors are DCs alphas. Your Presence > Monitor and Endless debates are officially debunked and you'll be doing damage control on that indefinitely.

Of Snyder live on video saying the sixth dimension is not beyond the source wall

What? He literally said the Sixth Dimension was accessible due to the destruction of the Source Wall, and that it was a boundary before the Source Wall which separated it from the Multiverse. How can you possible argue it's "inside" the wall? Lmao.

That Monitors made creation and the rules, nobody else

Monitor Brothers, not Nil Monitors.

Monitors are DCs alphas

Monitor Brothers, not Nil Monitors.

but FC Nil was.

It's the same Nil, confirmed by the author. It's location relative to the Source Wall was retconned by Grant Morrison himself in Multiversity. This doesn't change it's cosmology position relative to the Sixth Dimension.

Here we go the same ass two old guy

Makeing more shit up because their lame ass chararter got debunked into Oblivion

MichaelJulius: i'm suuuurrrreeeee tttthhhheeee iiiinnnnntttteeeerrrvvvviiieeewwww ssssuuuuuppppooooorrrrrttttttsssss mmmmmuuuuuhhhhhhh hhhhhheeeeeaaaaadddddcccccaaaannnnoooonnnn...

Scott:

@michaeljulius said:

This is just funny now. It is damage control what you guys are doing. You immediately tried to rally up the gang and look for any any loose holes which you can use in a "debunk" argument. Even in this text you are clearly lying about Nil. I'm sorry Michael but your FC/CAS/Mandrakk fantasy is over.

@enigma22: Nah fam, its alive in their minds

@anaverageguy123 said:

Ha! I mean it's kinda sad in a way. It's obvious that they live out some kinda fantasy through CAS/Mandrakk and they hate to see it ruined. It's a dumb obsession.

@anaverageguy123: waiting for more mental gymnastics

Pretty interesting stuff. I've always seen the arguments that there were two races of monitor as really strange, because that was never stated or implied in any of the comics I read. People just seemed to insist it was so.

Nice to have a chance to ask one of the authors for their take. Given they said they check things with Grant it likely means it was his take as well.

Nice to have it clearly stated unambiguously that the monitors are only one race and all come from the original crisis monitor.

I mean, Michael literally created two different accounts where he roleplayed as Mandrakk.

https://comicvine.gamespot.com/profile/daxnovu/

https://comicvine.gamespot.com/profile/mandrakk/

The weirder part is that the Dax account was made in 2011. So he's been doing this a long time. I guess he's in a bit of a crisis (no pun intended) now that Mandrakk is not the strongest being in DC. I mean, World Forgers peons defeated him with Nth Metal. Not even Element X.

@deagonx: Yeo, he was a meme waaayyyyyy back, he was the main weapon Marvel wankers used to debunk Dc debators using him to showcase the "stupidity" of DC debators lel

@enigma22: I'm not gonna lie, I always thought that CAs was pretty cool, like a Superman made of thought (if only he was platonic as well), that was nice I suppose, sad he was a 1 issue character haha

kek