Is the Presence really Omnipotent? Yes, Heres why

Ok so I was wondering about this......

How can a omnipotent being beat an omnipotent being?

Origins

for those who doesnt know, In DC comics back in the day when the titan Krona decided to discover the universe's origin. he discovered on his monitor a Hand coming out of the cosmos creating galaxies and stars etc.

it was at this time that the first use of a "Higher Power" character was introduced into the comic. people became skeptical and wondered who was the newly introduced character and it was later expanded when these guys showed up.

Lucifer Morningstar and Michael Demiurgos, created by Neil Gaiman managed to get his first solo series and was introduced as DC's Version of the Biblical Satan and the Archangel Michael.

Then it was revealed that they created the DC Universe alongside their Father "The Presence". The Omnipotent, Omnipresent and Omniscient Supreme Being of the DC Universe.

it was popularly agreed by many to be the definite god of DC. and even gathered many speculation as he

Has a son named Lucifer

A son named Michael

A son named Jesus of Nazareth

leading people to believe that he is DC's version of the "Biblical" God.

according to the DC wiki,

• DC's superhero comics have always drawn upon the Bible for plot elements - the first appearance of "The Voice" was in the 1940 origin of the Spectre - but it has traditionally been known through surrogate concepts and names rather than by referring to God directly. The superhero comics are published under the Comics Code - a set of ethical guidelines drawn up in the 1950s in reaction to anti-comic book hysteria. The Code does not explicitly refer to God, but does say that "Ridicule or attack on any religious or racial group is never permissible." Later revisions of the code are phrased in terms of respecting religious beliefs and religious institutions. That may account for the superhero comics' hesitancy when dealing with God. The lack of a central doctrine means that multiple "aspects" of God have been introduced by different writers.

The Argument

But then during lucifer no.75. This happened

This has gathered much speculation that the presence may not have been truly omnipotent at all. During final crisis it was introduced that the "Over-Monitor" was the truly powerful Being in all of dc comics and not the presence.

and then this abomination

And then this guy!!!!!

so lets keep this straight because I dont want to make this post too long.

I've seen in multiple (stupid) TOAA vs. The Presence battle threads that the vast majority of people claim it's a stalemate while a few people claim that TOAA is omnipotent while the Presence has admitted he is not. and some saying that The Presence=PR Beyonder. so despite all these,

Is the Presence really Omnipotent.

YES. heres why.

As people know the great evil beast itself is gods evil half the 1st evil and many say the great evil beast isn't omnipotent but if we considered the fact the presence absorbed it!

Yes absorbed a omnipotent being! Both hands literally reaching! This right here is a feat that is beyond comprehensive levels of information!

but I could tell you all right now, The Great Evil beast might actually be a "Nigh-Omnipotent" unlike what people believe.

Now before anyone says

"Oh you idiot the presence isn't even omnipotent because he was created from external forces."

The presence was literally 4th walling us stating he was created by the literal DC writers and artists!

Many beings have show some sort of feat like this like Mr.Mxzy and Deadpool for examples other times as minor with cartoon characters now how does saying he was created from external forces dictate he is omnipotent.

He states he is Infinite and Eternal which is essentially what an Omnipotent being is. He never states that he is created. This means he wasn't created by a another Entity in the DC/Vertigo Universe. The writers did create him and that might be who he is reffering to as "External Forces".

The writers are the ones that shape the characters to. Someone could create a character but many writers will get to shape the character the way they want it to be. In truth this makes him more Omnipotent since he knows that the writers or External Forces if you will were the ones that created him.

He said he was shaped. That doesnt mean he isnt omnipotent or the writer are omnipotent.

1 Word

Grant Morrison!

A writer in the comics? THEN HE IS ABOVE THE PRESENCE!

wrong! Many people believe a writer in a fictional world is all powerful......but as we see they aren't 50% of the time saying Grant Morrison is above the presence is just ludicrous to the point of saying TOAA can erase another omnipotent being! Such paradox itself its dumb sounding to the ears and mind.

How is the presence still considered a omnipotent being?

Because by his sons Michael and Lucifer but don't stop their lets go to the Word and many others hell his avatars aka The source holds more power then you can imagine! The fact the presence is based on the literal "Biblical Judeo God" having the same name Yahweh aka God in real life and we know DC is religious based and holds beliefs to the Bible so ima bet a golden dollar and say....

The presence is Omnipotent,Omnipresent,Omniscient and Omnibenevolent as our real life god.

Even Greg Rucka Said it himself

and even in the DC Wiki states that

The religious cosmology of the multiverse is complex, with many pantheons of Gods co-existing alongside each other. It includes elements from multiple religions, mythologies, and modern concepts such as the Endless. It is not always clear how the Abrahamic God fits in to this scheme - for example Wonder Woman was once involved in a battle wherein Greek Titans fought Judeo-Christian angels and Hindu Gods.

The Presence "has taken numerous forms throughout history", The guy can break himself into different aspects and is still all powerful. including:

• The Voice - The disembodied Voice of God that spoke to and empowered Jim Corrigan as the Spectre.

• The Hand - The appearance of a hand coming out of a nebula was sighted at the moment of universal creation.

• The Source - The universal spirit venerated by the New Gods, which resides beyond the Source Wall. It is thought of as the intelligence aspect of the Presence's infinite scope

• The Presence - The unseen entity who commands the allegiance of the host of angels, including Zauriel.The guy can break himself into different aspects and is still all powerful.

• Overmonitor (Probably)

Summary

Before anyone say this isn't a debunk it is.....

1. He absorbed TGEB without trouble showing his supremacy over it.

2. Grant Morrison never hinted in DC or RL he is above the presence.

3. Many beings stated and regarded god as a being of omnipotency even the source is just a avatar to Yahweh.

4. Encyclopedia of DC still states he is above all (+Primal Monitor)

5. The presence is a literal copy of biblical Judeo Christianity God.

"How can you beat an omnipotent being? You cant. You Cant overpower something in which from its very thought is already the most powerful"

Is the Presence Omnipotent? YES!

I mean..I always considered him to be OP....but yeah, good write up!

Really? How about NO!? Presence can just be considered as powerful being in DC verse, but omnipotent...really? Comic authors just abuse the term "omnipotent" in comics.

Anyways Presence was killed. He even mentioned that he was created by some force (forgot what it was really, but I am sure).

No one who is omnipotent is Fat, chit chat like girls, ect.

We don't even know if the Hand is the Presence. Some infer it might be Manhattan because of Rebirth.

Good write up

@breakyourballs: Did you read the entire post?

@_reynard_: Nah, Dr Manhattan basically just took 10 years from the characters of the DC Universe. Aint no way hes touching pass even Lucifer or Michael. Doctor Manhattan isn't even omnipotent let alone omniscient he said himself. He was just a "Normal" Human who has accidentally transformed himself into an Energy being. All he can do was manipulate matter and molecules.

Manhattan is basically just a featless Captain Atom.

@beyonder-616:

It doesn't make it any less valid. Maybe he's getting amped.

This was good. Thank you for the information.

@stormshadow_x: I don't need to, cause I read comic and I know what's going on.

@beyonder-616: Good post! Yeah, some people place too much stock in writers' powerlevels. Alan Grant wrote Lobo but Lobo beat him up.

No one who is omnipotent need to use 4th wall. This thread is just joke. Please prove that Presence used 4th wall. This is not Deadpool joke comic.

Grant Morrison above omnipotent really? He is full of 4th wall, 4th wall is joke.

@breakyourballs: Did you read the OP?

@tifalockhart: He doesn't need to he apparently "read" the comic. That automatically nullfies the need to read someone else's points.

There is nothing to suggest Presence was referring to the Fourth Wall.

No because Presence has a Superior (The Overvoid)

not sure why people are arguing against this without thinking outside the box?

@supremeintelligence: thinking outside the box is a rarity in general amongst humans.

Not Omnipotent. Had a maker.

Grant Morrison did illustrate and author officially that the Void is a higher entity than the Presence. The Source is the last Ring, proceeded by the Source Wall directly below. The White around everything is the Over Void. You are just not listening to reason or logic at all and totally ignoring the highest authority possible on this subject. Grant Morrison disagrees with you.

DC encyclopedia does not state Primal Monitor is below the Presence. Here is what it says about this. Next time, please show everyone a snapshot of the book you are talking about so others can confirm if what you are saying is true or not. He said this "Encyclopedia of DC still states he is above all (+Primal Monitor)"

That was a fabrication, hoping that nobody else owns the 2008 edition of the DC encyclopedia. Mandrakk owns it. The following characters do not exist in the 2004 or the 2008 version of the DC Encyclopedia.

Presence, God, Over Void, Void, Over Monitor, Primal Monitor. All Absent.

Gallery

Mandrakk enters. Mandrakk Consumes all.

@mandrakk said:

I've seen this before. Its always felt incomplete, no higher dimensions for one thing.

@mandrakk: Everybody has a maker. Even TOAA or the Presence. Something or someone cannot create itself.

Are you taking your info from wiki? The Presence wasn't ''killed''. He was simply making it seems like he did for his own pleasure.

It would be placed just beyond the Sphere of the Gods, in Mandrakk's opinion. Wonderworld defended the limits of reality from the 5th Dimension, along with other beings battling this place. Wonder world is just below Dream. The 5th Dimension is a place that is supposed to reside on the same "Space" as Earth but in another dimension. It is composed of stuff. Limbo has no stuff, so it would most likely and logically fall between Limbo and the Sphere of Gods.

The fifth dimension was stated by Zauriel to be outside of creation, so I'm not sure.

Mandrakk's mistake. This was addressed. The 5th Dimension is inside the Orrery, somewhere. It's placement is irrelevant, what's important is that it is in fact inside the Orrery and that the Bleed rotates through it. This implies that the 5th Dimension is part of it, but on a higher plane of existence (IE, the 5th plane)

@wf_mxyzptlk: Realistically the fifth dimension should be at the same place as the Earths in the multiverse just superimposed with the spatial planes and time.

Good Read as i have always said Over void the hand voice GEB all the presence with different functions. Just like the case with fulcrum and the TOAA

@thearchon: Wiki? Really? No I don't look bias DC wiki. If Presence was really omnipotent and did it for his own pleasure then no one would have knew about his reason of his death. Its very nonsensical really.

@mandrakk said:

Mandrakk's mistake. This was addressed. The 5th Dimension is inside the Orrery, somewhere. It's placement is irrelevant, what's important is that it is in fact inside the Orrery and that the Bleed rotates through it. This implies that the 5th Dimension is part of it, but on a higher plane of existence (IE, the 5th plane)

That's fifth dimensional space, not Zrfff specifically.

Thought we were talking about the 5th Dimension. You can choose any of the universe bubbles in the official map and choose your own spot, since no exact location was given. The 5 Dimension is still located inside the Orrery, that is the only confirmed information I was able to find.

no idea but im starting to thing Trump is :D

@scathanapproves:I've Actually gotten my hands on the multiversity books including about the empty hand and the Gentry.

But as far as we know, the empty hand was only and best described to date as an unknown but mind-shatteringly powerful entity that commands The Gentry, and constructed the inhabitants of Earth 42 in order to test-run its plans of domination on them.

Even though it would be proven that the hand that krona discovered, there isn't much more information to go along with.

Even if you say "The Presence is a measly comic book character. The Primal Monitor is essentially a real life thing"

As far as we know The Overvoid is the paper the comic is on. The Presence is the will of the writer. Paper has no power, the will has more power. But of course since this is still an ongoing debate, Anybody can correct me.

Even if people say and debate things like Primal Monitor vs The Presence? even that is hard to answer because the philosophy of that is this

"The primal monitor is the canvas of all creation while the presence is the creator of all upon that canvas"

I don't think one or the other can really be destroyed as their must always be a canvas and a creator "

It even says

At First there was only the Overvoid, Then it discovered a flaw in its heart and sent out a probe (Which were The Monitors) Think of it like a cloth stain. but then the overvoid think it sucks and want it monitored.

That flaw the overvoid discovered on itself was The DC Universe.

Lets take a look at Lucifer for a moment

At first, The Presence Instructed his Two sons Lucifer Morningstar and Michael Demiurgos to Shape whatever they want and in many moments later, managed to create and shape all of DC Creation.

Lucifer Morningstar - "The Will of God" Once the most powerful and most beautiful of all angels in existence and one of two fictionally accredited with the creation of the DC Multiverse.

Michael Demiurgos - the son of Yahweh and brother of Lucifer Morningstar. He, along with his brother, is one of two fictionally accredited with the creation of the DC Multiverse. He is often described as the second mightiest of all the beings god created.

it was the two of them along with the presence who created all of the DC Creation.

And Everything that they created was the Flaw that the Overvoid was talking about.

During Lucifer's Final battle which ended his first solo series on issue 75. When Elaine was the newly appointed Watcher of the DC universe. Lucifer went for a final trip to a Bar and unknowingly has a final talk with his Father (The Presence).

Now you said that "Not only that, but Monitors are now 100% confirmed to be real world story generators and authors. In the Multiversity story that just came out a few days ago, Grant confirms the Monitors recorded all past DC stories and all future ones, and then wrote them as Comic Books for Universe 33 to read"

During their last talk (I assume you read the entire Issue), The Presence greeted Lucifer with a very eye-opening statement.

"I'm Happy to see you here. Outside of the PLAN"

Now you said that the monitors are the story generators, who even Grant Morrison said recorded all past DC Stories and Future ones.

Now think of it as Predestination,

Predestination - The belief that everything that will happen has already been decided by God or fate and cannot be changed. Is the belief that everything that happens has already been determined by God — He's got a master plan, and there's no deviating from it.

We all Know The monitors were the ones who watch over the DC Universe. and what they're doing is recording all past, present and future events. Basically what the Presence is putting onto place in the DC Universe. just like Destiny of the Endless.

When The Presence talked with Lucifer, "The Plan" that the presence is referring to is The Story and Events that would happen in the DC Universe.

Predestination (A.K.A The Story) which what Lucifer was trying to escape since he rebelled. He tried to escape the already untouchable story and fate of the DC Universe. which the presence had already planned from the beginning. From The Crisis on infinite earths, and all events that ever happened had already been planned out by the presence. and the monitors are the ones who recorded it.

The Presence is not that powerful and is still in the comic and can be affected by the story? FALSE!!!!

See that above? What the presence is holding is the multiverse sphere. the very flaw that the Overvoid is very confused about.

Another question is. If the presence is holding all of creation (The Multiverse Sphere) in his hand, then what is he standing on at that very point?

So the presence held all of DC Creation in his hand. The Universe that He and along with Lucifer and Michael shaped and formed. He held it in his Frickin Hand! with every universe inside it including the monitor realm. and he is outside it!

See that white background behind Lucifer and The Presence?

That is The Primal-Monitor.

they are both sitting at the very place in which nothing can ever interfere.

Summary

The Presence held all creation in his hand, proving his superiority towards everything else in the DC Universe including the monitors "Diary Writing", and Lucifer who finally escaped The Presence's Plan (The Story) and now sitting with him "Outside of the DC Universe"

They are both sitting in a place where there is absolutely nothing but the grassy field with a bar they are talking in, which is located OUTSIDE OF MULTIVERSE SPHERE.

They are both talking outside of the DC Universe with right behind them is the Primal-Monitor, proving that The Presence is just as in a high level of superiority as the Primal-Monitor is to the rest of the DC Universe. proving that The Presence is not in any way affected by the "Story Paradox" that people have been talking about.

• Even the Primal-Monitor at start wasn't even aware of The Presence's Creation proving that the Overmonitor may not be as omniscient as we thought.

Again, all of it brings us back to this - "The primal monitor is the canvas of all creation while the presence is the creator of all upon that canvas I don't think one or the other can really be destroyed as their must always be a canvas and a creator ""

Now back to The Empty Hand Argument.

Forgetting about Empty Hand and Ultra Comics? Also, as someone already said, the Primal Monitor is not greater than the Presence. The Great Evil Beast was just another side of the Presence that (IIRC) was absorbed back into him. Godhead Darkseid has zero feats anywhere close to Lucifer and Michael, who pack enough power to bring into existence the entire creation of DC, which includes the multiverse and everything outside of it. Godhead Darkseid lives in the Sphere of the Gods, part of the creation Lucifer and Michael created.

primal monitor failed to reach his goal, he is not really that omnipotent or omniscient either, all he is, is massive size.

Also based on your logic Ultra Comcis = the comicbook itself and would be more powerful than the Primal Monitor

Because Honestly to me after reading The Multiversity comic...

THESE GUYS

Are vaguely similar TO THESE GUYS

Why don't you just spit it out and say that the Presence is Yahweh the "real life" God so therefore he is Omnipotent and that you worship him because you're a Christian? You do know that there are higher powers than even God right? For where did God come from? I do not accept the answer that he has always existed or that he created himself. He had to have been created by an even higher power and the Presence himself stated that he was shaped by external forces. There ARE external forces exist to the Presence which means that the Presence is NOT everything which means that he is NOT Omnipotent! THERE'S ALWAYS A HIGHER POWER! Even fully Omnipotent Gods are only fodders in Suggsverse! It's a paradox, I know... :(

PS. Doesn't really matter anyways as everything from Vertigo is crap! There's so much PIS in that series with the Presence, Elaine Belloc, Lucifer, Michael, etc that it's just garbage to me. For example Lucifer has blonde hair? I thought Michael is supposed to be the blonde one. Isn't Lucifer supposed to have black hair? Sandalphon is evil? Angels created all of existence as in Lucifer, Michael and Gabriel created the Multiverse...and last but not least...Elaine Belloc is the mightiest being in all of existence! yeah right! Bullshit!! (cough cough) :)

@billy219: oh chill bro

Gabriel killed him.

GABRIEL.

The proverbial archangel buttmonkey.

Definitely not omnipotent.

Also, Elaine with all his powers can't read the minds of comparable beings.

@beyonder-616: You're good.Well done sir

@homifred:

Gabriel killed him.

He wanted to be die though... And didn't he even bring himself back anyways?

OT: Solid write, and I agree with your evaluation

Didn't they establish in Wrath of the first Lantern that the hand Krona observed was Volthoom??? I'm not sure but I remember the comic revisited that scene

Not one to bump a thread but the primal monitor and the presence are one and the same.

www.ign.com/articles/2009/02/03/inside-the-mind-of-grant-morrison?page=3

in this interview Grant Morrison addresses them as the same being

https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_super/10/107191/3359957-spectre+v4+%2310+-+page+21.jpg

spectre says that the void (primal monitor) and God(presence) are different names for one being

J.M Matteis openly stated that the void is an aspect of the presence (I have the pic but I have no idea how to post pics on this site

Well, in the whole Mike Carey run The Presence was said and presented as Omnipotent. Even in ch 75 The Presence called himself omnipotent. People like to pay attention to "Shaped by external forces" part to downgrade The Presence but ignore when he said that he was "Infinite and Eternal". Frankly, there has been no statement or intention to even make one question Presence's omnipotence.

@yasindermann: @etriel:

Excellent Post.

DC Presence =/= Vertigo Presence

DC Presence and Vertigo Presence are different, however, they are both omnipotent.

The Presence he is not Omnipotent like The One Above All

ehhh, quite a bit of misinformation in this. But I'm not gonna get into whether or not he's Omnipotent.