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#1 Posted by Guyverking1993 (11 posts) - - Show Bio

I've been asking myself these types of questions playing and reading the injustice verse. I've talk to friends and family about this, some agree with superman but most agree with Batman. I found it odd though that those I ask prefer freedom and no killing of villains even though said villains might cause more death in the future.they said it breaks what a hero is? That a hero must be almost Messiah like? To which I found the most odd, why must they be Messiah like in nature and or veiws? Why can't they be more human like aka more grey or a bit darker? For example superman in the injustice verse literally lost everything and almost everyone he loved. It wasn't just his wife and unborn child he lost but his entire life was massacred by the joker and brainiac. But still he didn't fault, he's he didn't immediately become a supposedly villain right of the bat. It was WW that help guild him to that or more Precisely the last one to guild him to being what he is today. So lets set a list of everything he lost, and this is just him alone not including characters like cyborg who also lost his friends to the joker as well.

List of some of superman tragedies

- brainiac Destroyed his home planet

- brainiac destroyed his people and their culture

- brainiac killed his biological father and mother

- best friend jimmy got killed by the joker

- was tick by the joker into killing his wife and unborn child with his own hands

- joker nuke superman city

- is vilified because he killed the mad man that took everything from him and the same when he killed brainiac.

- been manipulated by wonder woman the entire time after his wife, unborn child and city was Destroyed

I mean I can go on, now a man that went through all of those tragedies is still expected to be a Messiah like? Job in the Old Testament couldn't do it and yet superman or heros in general are supposed to? Let me ask ya this, was he truly evil? Or is comic company like D.C. Are to childish in their morality? If I'm wrong in any of this please don't hesitate to correct me.

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#2 Edited by Redsayn (343 posts) - - Show Bio

So, what you're asking is:

"Is Superman actually in the right for overthrowing all world governments, creating a dictatorship and either murdering, imprisoning or mind-controlling any and all who disagree with him?"

No. No he is not.

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#3 Edited by JediXMan (40222 posts) - - Show Bio

Superman was Wonder Woman's puppet, simple as that. She's the true villain.

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#4 Posted by TDK_1997 (17850 posts) - - Show Bio

The story is just horrible. It has potential but it is long lost.

No matter what are the consequences of any attack, by any supervillain you can think of, Superman will never break and go to the dark side. He might consider it, he might do something rash but nothing like the things he's done in Injustice. At the same time, however, if you look at the story closely you can see that he has been manipulated by Wonder Woman throughout the whole time.

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#5 Posted by Guyverking1993 (11 posts) - - Show Bio

@jedixman: thank you, finally someone else knows that as well. She was one of the mains factor in all of this. Her, the joker, Harley are to me the 3 real villains in all of this. Also why is Harley so easily forgotten that she help joker killed Millions plus people! She just as guilty as he is! But yet in the comics, video games and fans all seem to treat her like she a saint! Am I missing something here?

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#6 Edited by mimisalome (3514 posts) - - Show Bio

The only reason why Superman is morally "good" is because canonically he was raised by his christian-conservative foster parents and for the most (classical versions) part he believes in a moral supreme being (at some point).

Turned him into an atheist liberal and he will regress to nihilism and amorality

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#7 Posted by JediXMan (40222 posts) - - Show Bio

@jedixman: thank you, finally someone else knows that as well. She was one of the mains factor in all of this. Her, the joker, Harley are to me the 3 real villains in all of this. Also why is Harley so easily forgotten that she help joker killed Millions plus people! She just as guilty as he is! But yet in the comics, video games and fans all seem to treat her like she a saint! Am I missing something here?

Because she was just brainwashed by the Joker. In the comics, she joined Batman's side. In the first game, she broke away from Joker and was finally independent.

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#8 Posted by Guyverking1993 (11 posts) - - Show Bio

@tdk_1997: I completely agree with you, the story was better off as a one shot at best. Also when do you think the writes will or if ever shown that WW was the puppet master in all of this? Also my point about superman is that he not prefect he is for all intents and purposes a human like me and you. He's not without his flaws but to expect him to be this hero complex all the time is ridiculous. I like injustice because it shows that superman is just a man like the rest of us. Can you truly blame him for all his deeds in injustice. Sure there is some here and there that he is truly guilty of but not all. He's the real victim of all of this.

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#9 Posted by Avenging-X-Bolt (17545 posts) - - Show Bio

Did you seriously make a second thread for the exact same topic?

No one would have held it against Supe's if all he had done was kill the Joker and those who had would have gotten over it in time. It was after h tried to take over the damage world that peoplease started to get pissed off.

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#10 Posted by JediXMan (40222 posts) - - Show Bio
@tdk_1997 said:

The story is just horrible. It has potential but it is long lost.

No matter what are the consequences of any attack, by any supervillain you can think of, Superman will never break and go to the dark side. He might consider it, he might do something rash but nothing like the things he's done in Injustice. At the same time, however, if you look at the story closely you can see that he has been manipulated by Wonder Woman throughout the whole time.

It's totally Wonder Woman's fault. And, in the comics, he is also manipulated by Sinestro.

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#11 Edited by Guyverking1993 (11 posts) - - Show Bio

@jedixman: True, its good she broke away but again her actions has resulted in the death of millions. It just im so confused on how evil people say superman is but Harley literally helped killed millions!

I suppose it's also about the immediate threat and the situation at hand that morality is forgotten or a blind eyed is turn

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#12 Posted by JediXMan (40222 posts) - - Show Bio

@jedixman: True, its good she broke away but again her actions has resulted in the death of millions. It just im so confused on how evil people say superman is but Harley literally helped killed millions!

Same goes for Superman's accomplices, like Flash, who turned away from him in the end.

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#13 Edited by Avenging-X-Bolt (17545 posts) - - Show Bio

@jedixman: there's a difference between manipulation and forcing someone to do something. Wonder Woman and Sinestro share guilt to be sure but they aren't solely responsible. Especially since Kal started meddling in world affairs before even talking to either of them. Sinestro didn't even show up till the second year.

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#14 Posted by TDK_1997 (17850 posts) - - Show Bio

@tdk_1997: I completely agree with you, the story was better off as a one shot at best. Also when do you think the writes will or if ever shown that WW was the puppet master in all of this? Also my point about superman is that he not prefect he is for all intents and purposes a human like me and you. He's not without his flaws but to expect him to be this hero complex all the time is ridiculous. I like injustice because it shows that superman is just a man like the rest of us. Can you truly blame him for all his deeds in injustice. Sure there is some here and there that he is truly guilty of but not all. He's the real victim of all of this.

That is true and I agree with you. It's a good thing Taylor is showing us that he is just a normal person and even though he is alien he has the traits of a human, even he makes mistakes. The problem I have is that the idea is good but the development of the story and the characters' actions aren't thought through at all.

@jedixman said:

@tdk_1997 said:

The story is just horrible. It has potential but it is long lost.

No matter what are the consequences of any attack, by any supervillain you can think of, Superman will never break and go to the dark side. He might consider it, he might do something rash but nothing like the things he's done in Injustice. At the same time, however, if you look at the story closely you can see that he has been manipulated by Wonder Woman throughout the whole time.

It's totally Wonder Woman's fault. And, in the comics, he is also manipulated by Sinestro.

I had forgotten that it happened. Half of the things he tells him to do are simply idiotic and no matter how far gone Superman is, he shouldn't fall for them.


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#15 Posted by Spambot (8484 posts) - - Show Bio

DC is evil for putting him through all that and still holding him to 1950's style morality for comics.

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#17 Posted by Avenging-X-Bolt (17545 posts) - - Show Bio

@jedixman: Flash and GL were on the evil side to be sure. Both are redeeming themselves as is Harley.

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#18 Posted by Avenging-X-Bolt (17545 posts) - - Show Bio

@jedixman: it isnt. Diana was horrible and manipulative but blaming all of Kals actions on her is a stretch.

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#19 Posted by AngryHulks (3552 posts) - - Show Bio

The morality of Injustice is based off American libertarianism.

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#20 Posted by mrmonster (5654 posts) - - Show Bio

Superman wanted to kill all of Gotham City just to squash any hopes of a rebellion against him. If he had, millions would've died. I think that's pretty evil.

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#21 Posted by All-Father (4696 posts) - - Show Bio

Superman could've been defeated and convinced multiple times if it hadn't been for Wonder Woman.

MMH nearly convinced him of his mistakes if it wasn't for WW

Captain Atom had him on the ropes, yet again WW comes again

Batman once again had Superman, but again WW comes to save Big Blue

Superman could've been convinced of the wrongness of his Actions if it wasn't WW's involvement and her consistently manipulating him

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#22 Posted by All-Father (4696 posts) - - Show Bio

@jedixman said:
@guyverking1993 said:

@jedixman: thank you, finally someone else knows that as well. She was one of the mains factor in all of this. Her, the joker, Harley are to me the 3 real villains in all of this. Also why is Harley so easily forgotten that she help joker killed Millions plus people! She just as guilty as he is! But yet in the comics, video games and fans all seem to treat her like she a saint! Am I missing something here?

Because she was just brainwashed by the Joker. In the comics, she joined Batman's side. In the first game, she broke away from Joker and was finally independent.

Which year? Because i don't recall her being Brain washed or joining Batman's side.

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#23 Posted by JediXMan (40222 posts) - - Show Bio

@all-father:

I meant psychologically brainwashed. It's a part of Quinn in general.

I forget. I just know Barley worked alongside Black Canary and others on Batman's side.

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#24 Posted by All-Father (4696 posts) - - Show Bio

@jedixman said:

@all-father:

I meant psychologically brainwashed. It's a part of Quinn in general.

I forget. I just know Barley worked alongside Black Canary and others on Batman's side.

Ahh i see. The time you're referring to is when Zeus got involved and forced her to Join the Greek Pantheon's side and Batman's side.

Year 4 to be specific

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#25 Posted by JediXMan (40222 posts) - - Show Bio

@all-father:

Happened earlier than that. I'd have to check.

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#26 Posted by SeaGod (3064 posts) - - Show Bio

honestly while WW did manipulate Superman he still did some evil things without her meddling. Like for example the yellow lantern ring which as soon as WW woke up she made him get rid of. Also yeah can't call Superman good after this moment.

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#27 Posted by Gaoron (3815 posts) - - Show Bio

Killing Joker and other psychos like that is not a bad or evil thing but destroying cities full of civilians, killing and mind controlling your comrades is.

Injustice is one of the best or even the very best Superman story. Its stupid and illogical at times but so dark and fun at the same time.

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#28 Posted by kgb725 (15466 posts) - - Show Bio

No because he didn't stop at killing the bad guys. He killed everyone who opposed him and would've killed others who were innocent

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#29 Posted by Manhunter_Prime (111 posts) - - Show Bio

It's easy to see that Superman has gone off the deep end; that the initial tragedy and the manipulations of others have set him on this villainous path. Perhaps we can debate the specifics of how much of it is Superman's fault, and what proves that he's evil or not. Obviously, most people agree that killing the Joker might have been justified, but by halfway through Year 1 he's already crossing lines he shouldn't.

But getting back to the second part of the question, is it childish to expect our heroes not to murder murderers? No. Not at all. The whole point of the story is to show Superman being pushed off this particular cliff. He crossed the line. And I believe the line is exactly where it should be.

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#30 Posted by Mohhsen (118 posts) - - Show Bio

I have only read injustice year 1:5 not yet ground zero ............. yes he is evil killing innocent people for naming themselves after the joker is evil (superman is a tyrant and a dectator of 4 years who kills people on liveTV_ie.Dinah_and the joker was his enemy and first victim) and telling victor to kill alfred is so not okay he even keeps it a secret from his allies

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#31 Edited by Guyverking1993 (11 posts) - - Show Bio

I know superman isn't free of guilt here, again its not like he woke one day and say I'm going to be evil now. It takes a lot of tragedies to push superman or anyone over, if D.C. Didn't make superman into a puppet tyrant ( he is not a real tyrant, his losses and WW had made sure for him to be set on this path as well as other factors) he could have been a cool punisher like superman.

My thing with superman is in the context of how he became a villain was more though manipulation then any real actual choice. He was a and still is Boken man, that no one took the time to visit him or sit down with him and help guild him though these tragedies. The story clearly shows superman never having any real time to actually deal with all of these tragic issues . Then throw in the us government doing the most idiotic thing they can do to superman where he's at mentally. Dude your going to kidnap superman adopted parents after joker nuke his city and trick him into killing his very own wife and unborn child? That was another mile stone into why superman is what he is today in injustice. Also lets not forget superman wasn't taking over the world at this time, he just enforces peace at this time. He literally force not only the civilians to be responsible for their actions but mainly the government of the world. Which really is fantastic, because tell one time the government in the modern ages actually done something to improve the populous lives without cost to said population lives? Heck even cat woman told superman that he not only needs to stop the bad guys but to mainly stop governmental and corporations because they really are the ones effecting the people lives. She said this in year one.

This is still not the whole story in context but a good amount to show that when superman became this puppet tyrant he wasn't solely at fault if at all. It's many other pieces that came together in this background that had led superman towards this path.

Now put yourself in superman shores, you always stand up for what is right, your the poster boy for good, your the example for all of the hero community and the world! You can't mess up, you can't faulted, you can't do anything that is even seen as being wrongfull. Then add inmental pressure and the restraint not to kill the villains that deserve it or just in general always holding back in everything because your powers can literally create natural disasters. This alone is ridiculous amount of pressure that is put onto any heros. Heck this can already snap a strong willed person but not superman until what joker "and" "Harley". So yes superman breaks down but he didn't become evil, he's still on the side of good. Add WW into the mix with her manipulation and you got something vile in your hands and then to top this all off is the US government literally making the biggest mistake of their lives! Which is mess with superman adopted parents. Superman is anything is a victim of a mad couple, wasn't giving anytime to actually mourn his loss. then add in a jealous and manipulative WW, a government who thought they can threaten a man who literally loss everything expect his adopted parents and use them against him? I mean this alone can drive anyone to be the worst of themselves.

Look I'm not justifiable his actions, I'm putting them into the context of the story and just like 2+2=4. Superman logically was forced into the path of evil and was kept their by those he thought was their for him. But again lets not forget that superman isn't the only one here with bloody hands, if anything he was forced into being where he is now. If still he is responsible for his actions after all of that! Then Harley is still a genocidal and mass killer who had killed millions of people and the wife/unborn baby of superman! Lets not forget it was just some nonsense acts that drove superman down this path, it was just something that can be joke about . A man literally losses everything! What is a man whose from his planet to his race, to his city, and his loveones was all violently murder or destroyed. What is he supposed to do? Then again add in the manipulation of WW and the aggressiveness of the government and darksied invasion right after all of this.

https://static5.gamespot.com/uploads/original/1562/15626911/3166467-2+injustgz_ch1_p4.jpg

https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/12/125773/2914297-injusticegodsamongus7kofnu.jpg

http://superkalel.com/wp-content/plugins/rss-poster/cache/e19e4_medium.jpg

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-EcYsF1ST4Vg/VDCHeXwDA5I/AAAAAAAADcU/y8DiZ_Di2PQ/s1600/INJUSTICE_20_300-004_HD.480x480-75.jpg

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#32 Edited by Marishtar (959 posts) - - Show Bio

@guyverking1993: Superman is without any doubt evil in Injustice, WW, Joker, etc... are just a part of the reasons.

Many villains have reasons(somethimes even good ones) why they became evil, but they're still evil.

Also Clark isn't a little toddler, so of course is a significant part of it his own fault...

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#33 Edited by Guyverking1993 (11 posts) - - Show Bio

@marishtar: your not understanding what I'm saying or projecting. Your assuming that superman is clear header and can rationally make the decision to which the outcome is his responsibility?

That at all these point he is mentally capable of making and choosing the right choice? Am I correct in this?

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#34 Posted by the_stegman (38942 posts) - - Show Bio

He's evil, he kills indiscriminately.

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#35 Edited by Watcher5000 (7299 posts) - - Show Bio

@jedixman said:

Superman was Wonder Woman's puppet, simple as that. She's the true villain.

@tdk_1997 said:

The story is just horrible. It has potential but it is long lost.

No matter what are the consequences of any attack, by any supervillain you can think of, Superman will never break and go to the dark side. He might consider it, he might do something rash but nothing like the things he's done in Injustice. At the same time, however, if you look at the story closely you can see that he has been manipulated by Wonder Woman throughout the whole time.

WW was manipulating him? In where was this said?

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#36 Posted by StormShadow_X (13494 posts) - - Show Bio

@watcher5000: its not said its just obvious. While reading the comics its clear shes always pushing him deeper to the darkside

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#37 Posted by Watcher5000 (7299 posts) - - Show Bio
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#38 Posted by TVC-15 (5072 posts) - - Show Bio

I don't really get blaming Diana. She was a piece of shit, sure, but Kal isn't a damn child he had ample amount of time to distinguish between right and wrong, burning an entire room of protester, albeit utterly direspectful ones is wrong. No, ifs, ands, or buts.

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#39 Posted by Rockette (4905 posts) - - Show Bio
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#40 Posted by Manhunter_Prime (111 posts) - - Show Bio

@guyverking1993: Superman's tragedy is something we can all sympathize with. I don't think most people, the vast majority of which don't agree with what he does in Injustice, think that they would do any better in the same situation.

Does that make his actions moral? Are they necessary and justified to bring about greater good? Most people would say no, and given that they seem to do the opposite, would characterize him as evil.

You seem to be conflating mental incompetence and bad decision making. Superman makes bad choices, motivated by grief, but they are his choices. He is in pain, but in control of his mental faculties. He is to be held responsible for those choices, regardless of whether you sympathize with him, and regardless of the fact that you don't see how he could arrive at any other conclusion and don't want to hold it against him.

By the way, if you don't have any problem with what he does, disregarding why he does it, that's a different conversation.

As for the issue of manipulation by others, that's not my lot. I haven't kept up with the series and I don't know the specifics of those interactions. But my understanding is that for the most part he was not mind controlled, lied to, or otherwise forced by others to act, and my reasoning is based on that assumption. If I'm wrong in that regard, that's fine.

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#41 Posted by Marishtar (959 posts) - - Show Bio

@marishtar: your not understanding what I'm saying or projecting. Your assuming that superman is clear header and can rationally make the decision to which the outcome is his responsibility?

That at all these point he is mentally capable of making and choosing the right choice? Am I correct in this?

He would have been capable to choose better on several occasions yeah, again he isn't a toddler and you seem to think he was basically a heroin junkie...

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#42 Posted by Avenging-X-Bolt (17545 posts) - - Show Bio
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#43 Posted by Aros001 (2499 posts) - - Show Bio

I think it's not so much DC but the Injustice games themselves that have a bit of a childish morality, operating under the mentality that once a killer is always a killer and that that single one act will leave you free to commit any other questionable act without remorse.

Look at the game vs. the comics, where Superman has killed before, the most famous example being his execution of Zod by Kryptonite. It was not something he wanted to do. Not something he liked doing. And was something that hunted him for years, even though he acknowledges it was the right thing to do and will always wish there was another way around it. Heck, even the New 52 Superman, which I have issues with, I'll at least give credit to for saying that killing Doomsday is something that he'll have to live with for the rest of his life.

So in the comics, Superman has killed and feels deep remorse over it, as any person with a deep love of life would when faced with an impossible choice. And I don't condemn him for it because he deals with his choice and its consequences like a real person would.

But in Injustice, you killed someone and thus the only way you can live with yourself now is by being okay with killing everyone! There is no grey area! You did a bad thing and thus you are now forever bad!

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#44 Posted by Yung ANcient One (5308 posts) - - Show Bio

I think they just did a poor job with Superman in general. The character is continuously getting the short end of the stick in favor of Batman, so that Batsy can get more over. Batman is like the John Cena of comics.

One can understand that it is difficult to write for a character like Superman, but the story felt sloppy on that end. It is still a phenomenal story, for a fighting game, but still falls short, in my opinion.

I would have enjoyed a more complex outlook for Supes instead of just 'I lost everything, now I'm blinded by grief, so I am evil.' It is lame for me. (+)

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#45 Posted by kgb725 (15466 posts) - - Show Bio

@aros001: That's not injustice that's on DC for doing that with batman

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#46 Edited by primebonnick (4117 posts) - - Show Bio

I hate how the game rectconned how Damien turned to make Batman feel more justified a typical Batgod wank fest. To answer your question i don't mind superman that became a tyrant a wonderful take. The messiah thing should be for heroes due to the genre you know hope and all that foolishness and striving to do better.

Now for supes i was with him all the way Joker deserved what she got Hell Harley should have gotten it too but she is flaunting around and all the heroes are cool. He did lose me when he killed Billy though sigh.

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#47 Edited by blackagar (943 posts) - - Show Bio

Largely, no. But Some things he did were indeed tyrannical, but the premise was so stupid it made me upset playing the game.

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#48 Posted by DrMirakuru (77 posts) - - Show Bio

considering this is the same comic that has Harley beat Killer Croc and other badguys...dont bother

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#49 Posted by maxlabp (1450 posts) - - Show Bio

He isn't that evil, most of the Regime's actions were logical

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#50 Posted by NoRespect (48 posts) - - Show Bio

The guy doesn't kill people, because they're a danger to innocents. The guy kills people, because they get in his way. He's basically Space Stalin in the Injustice comics.

He even lobotomizes Batman in order to make him his slave/trophy in the Superman ending to Injustice 2. The only reason Superman doesn't kill Batman is because Superman didn't want to make Batman a martyr.

Superman's completely evil and irredeemable.