Is MCU Thor's fighting IQ low for someone with thousands of years of experience?

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Posted by kalkent (3763 posts) 1 month, 8 days ago

Poll: Is MCU Thor's fighting IQ low for someone with thousands of years of experience? (107 votes)

Yes. 64%
No. 26%
Results. 9%
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#51 Posted by SC (18222 posts) - - Show Bio

@metaljimmor: "Whenever I discuss fictional characters like this I always approach it from the perspective of being a writer myself so I suppose I have a habit of assuming everyone does just that."

I do the first bit as well, and I use to assume people did the latter as well, because I think thats the best way to approach creative mediums generally. Now what I say next isn't a negative or positive judgment... but a lot of fans, take on a more "sports team" style attitude and approach. They have their favourite characters and characters they hate, and its not so much that these characters are real, but say... maybe they are like wrestling characters/personalities and the creative processes behind such decisions are either unknown, ignored, minimised or only apply to justify their favourite characters "weaker" moments, and to explain characters they dislike "stronger" showings. If this is done in a casual, fun way, thats... okay, sort of like sports and wrestling but I still think that attitude should consider the creative and writing aspects involved.

"True, but that doesn't necessarily make it not worth discussing. At the very least I have fun talking about things like this because it can be engaging and give me ideas for my own stories."

I agree, but a lot of the times, these discussions are manufactured around some presupposition that leans into favouritism or undermining or casting shade on a character/characters. Especially characters or teams or companies that are in perceived rivalries with each other. It happens in the meta sense as well. Often such threads don't want discussion, they want affirmation or confirmation about a certain characters lacking or inferiority or superiority or potential (depending on the intent of thread creator) but ultimately since we could argue this way about almost every character (since portraying a character is subjective, and its easy to hypothesise about ways writers could 'improve' or 'realistically' portray characters, this shouldn't actually be seen as a negative reflection of characters themselves. It also could be seen as being critical of a writer, which is something I think we both agree on, but that also depends too, since sometimes there are good creative reasons why around how a character is portrayed. Which is why I personally appreciate when posters try to give creative suggestions for improvements with such criticisms, because it shows they are thinking like a writer and not just a fan who wants their favourites to be the best.

"Yah, I've noticed that too. Sending Zod flying away doesn't really help Superman. Grappling would be a way more effective martial style for Superman. A lot more in-line with his personality too, since he doesn't want to hurt his enemies usually. He just wants to subdue them."

Yeah, exactly. Lots of advantages, not just offensively. You can exert more control with grappling than striking, less collateral damage potentially, you can exert more control over the pace and and momentum of a fight. Less distance, less of a chance for an enemy to recover.

"Though I could also see Superman naturally being inclined to a more ranged style of combat. Lots of striking to keep his enemy airborne where he has the advantage due to his enormous speed and flight and where he can make full use of his heat vision, freeze breath, and super intelligence."

If an enemy has similar power and strength to him, but is more skilled in physical combat, even in a hypothetical scenario where Superman is actually a very skilled martial artist, (or various other situations) then yes, I agree, then it might actually be better for Superman, to actually want to create distance and use his long range abilities and speed, because the aforementioned advantages would swing in favour of his enemy.

"Or he could try to alternate between the two strategies depending on who he is fighting. Who themselves would be trying to do the opposite and force Clark into an unfavorable position."

Agreed, that would be the best, and I think would make for some really interesting scenes, from a story perspective and artistic perspective, I do think this could lead to... this may require more unison between writers and artists and also tougher panels that take longer to draw, and you may need more panels to touch on smaller details, over bigger splash panels which could lead to delays... which I would personally be happy with, since I tend to prefer a quality story thats comes out less frequently than faster shipping with less thought/effort but...

"Not as dynamic, sure. But you could make it dynamic. Say if each one of Superman's strikes created a huge shockwave. Mongul would logically be a skilled fighter as well and be able to do a reversal and just bullrush Clark through a dozen buildings while pummeling him up close. You can get creative with it."

I agree, but I mean, say specifically, Superman trying to put Mongul into a wristlock, to leverage him into the air, hovering, where Superman would have the balance advantage, where he can then, knee him to the body, over and over in rapid succession, whilst Mongul would attempt to block the knee, and get Superman back on to the ground to eliminate the balance advantage... thats harder to portray than just having Superman punch Mongul sending him flying through a mountain with a cool blur effect and sound effect. Also, it reminds people of the power involved. I mean, to a lot of people, we won't forget that these characters are that strong, when they fight had to hand... but that sequence above, could describe like... Daredevil and Bullseye minus the floating.

Personally I would prefer more writing, like what you describe and even more attempts at emphasising skill and creativity with powers and fighting, but I understand why Marvel and DC don't go that route that often (with their more powerful characters especially) and it may also be a factor between writers and artists. Creators who tend to be both the writer and artist, I find their fight choreography tends to be quite creative in comparison generally. Certain characters with fighting abilities, having writers and artists work together more closely.

"Getting creative with fighting styles would enrich the whole setting, in my opinion. It would be more work but it would give the high tiers more varied move sets and approaches to battle. Battle shonen do this all the time and it is a huge part of what makes their action sequences extremely diverse and interesting. More modern Battle shonen also tend to have every move their characters make be calculated as some part of a greater strategy which makes every fight feel super satisfying to watch as they are using their powers as best they can with the knowledge they have."

Oh, I did that thing where I address your posts in bits and didn't get to this yet, but exactly. I was actually thinking about mentioned battle shonen manga specifically around the one creator who is artist and writer and how that plays out differently with a writer and an artist.

I liked your write ups. Darkseid clinching and aggressively wearing down enemies with oppressive strength, so he can lock them in place with his arms, so he can stare at them directly, to use his Omega beams. I actually think Flash would benefit a lot with learning fighting techniques/martial arts, because speed is such an advantage in a fight, that he should learn to stay closer to enemies, and learning better places to attack enemies (like targeting limbs) and better build up his intuition/prediction abilities. Oh, also weapons, since at the speeds he travels at... for like robots or demons that he is fine with killing... but Flash's powers are kind of broken as is really, a lot of these characters powers are broken, giving them actual better skill and imagination...

"I dunno, My Hero Academia is doing really well in terms of readership and it does exactly what we're talking about. Obviously there are other factors to that but the core premise is a bunch of aspiring heroes developing their own unique fighting styles based on their abilities and personalities so they can fight to the best of their ability."

Great point, I concede. I was mostly thinking in the frame of Marvel and DC, but My Hero Academia is doing amazingly and I also love it, with what we are talking about, being one of the reasons. I am generally anti hard reboots, but I do sometimes wonder whether Marvel and DC need a "balance patch" with one of the main objectives be to write the characters powers with more consideration around skill, imagination and effort and if need be, to nerf their over all power if necessary to prevent them from being a freak beast.

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#52 Posted by Supermanfan1938 (1097 posts) - - Show Bio

Thor jobs against Iron Man a bit in their sloppy fight, you think he'd show a little more combat finesse instead of brute force.

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#53 Edited by CCThor (2297 posts) - - Show Bio

He has that power that no one can threathen him in almost his entire life, so it makes sense he doesn't gain so much H2H fighting skills.

But by normal standard, he's still a high tier skilled fighter.

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#54 Posted by mimisalome (5877 posts) - - Show Bio

Well there are many animal species like scorpions or spiders that have existed for millions of years, surviving predation and competition and global scale cataclysm event with very little changes in their biology just because their techniques for survival are very effective and efficient.

What I mean is, if Thor's brute-force oriented, dumb way of fighting is winning him battles consistently then there is very little reason to change his tactics and strategy.

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#55 Posted by MetalJimmor (6839 posts) - - Show Bio

@sc:

I do the first bit as well, and I use to assume people did the latter as well, because I think thats the best way to approach creative mediums generally. Now what I say next isn't a negative or positive judgment... but a lot of fans, take on a more "sports team" style attitude and approach.

Yah, I definitely know what you mean. There is a very strong tribal division in just about any fandom. Whether it be Marvel vs DC, MCU vs DCEU, Naruto vs Bleach, etc. It poisons the well and turns a lot of discussions that could be positive into something negative.

I agree, but a lot of the times, these discussions are manufactured around some presupposition that leans into favouritism or undermining or casting shade on a character/characters.

True, though I didn't take this thread as an example of that. I could be wrong but to my eye it was just asking why Thor isn't performing up to the OP's expectations in terms of battle intelligence and skill. I don't know the OP's motives though, so I just answered genuinely with an explanation I thought made sense.

It also could be seen as being critical of a writer, which is something I think we both agree on, but that also depends too, since sometimes there are good creative reasons why around how a character is portrayed. Which is why I personally appreciate when posters try to give creative suggestions for improvements with such criticisms, because it shows they are thinking like a writer and not just a fan who wants their favourites to be the best.

True. I definitely understand why Thor gets toned down when he is around the Avengers. You can't have a team where one party is just way better at everything than everyone else, and for an action series it is really hard to write up a way for everyone to feel useful when there's a literal god who could likely solo the entire encounter if he didn't need to worry about accidentally crushing his companions in the wake of his fury.

It can still be frustrating though. Especially if you're a fan of Thor. He wasn't designed to be a team player. Rather he was made and then later hammered into a team set up because of reasons I assume involved sales numbers and popularity rather than actually fitting the team story-wise. Which itself is another reason a lot of professional creatives, especially in the industry, make the choices they do. They work for a company and that company wants to make money. They don't necessarily have full creative freedom.

So Thor gets nerfed. Thor becomes Slowdinson so that people like Captain America and Wolverine can look good with their agility and skill and so he doesn't casually crush Quicksilver like a bug. Much to the dismay of Thor's fans who were hoping to see the God of Thunder in all his glory. It ends up not being entirely satisfying.

And of course "For fairness" isn't a very satisfying answer to "Why is Thor so weak?" so people look for in-universe explanations that may not exist.

Agreed, that would be the best, and I think would make for some really interesting scenes, from a story perspective and artistic perspective, I do think this could lead to... this may require more unison between writers and artists and also tougher panels that take longer to draw, and you may need more panels to touch on smaller details, over bigger splash panels which could lead to delays... which I would personally be happy with, since I tend to prefer a quality story thats comes out less frequently than faster shipping with less thought/effort but...

True, I hadn't considered how hard it must be to coordinate a complex fight scene between the author and artist of a comic. It isn't just extra work for the writer to come up with more engaging fight scenes, it is more work for the artists as well.

I agree, but I mean, say specifically, Superman trying to put Mongul into a wristlock, to leverage him into the air, hovering, where Superman would have the balance advantage, where he can then, knee him to the body, over and over in rapid succession, whilst Mongul would attempt to block the knee, and get Superman back on to the ground to eliminate the balance advantage...

I see what you mean. You could have shockwaves but that doesn't have as much oomph when they are airborne and there's no debris to go flying. You could maybe play it up with the sound instead of just visuals. Show panels of the citizens covering their ears and looking up in awe all across the city as the sound of Superman's strikes resonate like clashes of thunder that can be heard for miles and miles.

Another way to do it is effecting the weather. I still remember Saitama punching so hard he clears away a rain storm as a side effect or All Might's first big punch making it rain.

I liked your write ups. Darkseid clinching and aggressively wearing down enemies with oppressive strength, so he can lock them in place with his arms, so he can stare at them directly, to use his Omega beams. I actually think Flash would benefit a lot with learning fighting techniques/martial arts, because speed is such an advantage in a fight, that he should learn to stay closer to enemies, and learning better places to attack enemies (like targeting limbs) and better build up his intuition/prediction abilities. Oh, also weapons, since at the speeds he travels at... for like robots or demons that he is fine with killing... but Flash's powers are kind of broken as is really, a lot of these characters powers are broken, giving them actual better skill and imagination...

Thanks! Darkseid enjoying breaking his enemies down with blow after blow and wrecking the city the hero is trying to protect with their own body fits him perfectly, I feel.

You are probably right about Flash benefiting a lot from MA training. The main reason I say he doesn't really need it is because his powerset, when used intelligently, makes him nearly impossible to touch anyway. I could see someone with abilities like that conclude that he doesn't need to train hard and still feel like a natural character. At least until he first gets his butt kicked. Which could be a whole long running story arc in itself.

Great point, I concede. I was mostly thinking in the frame of Marvel and DC, but My Hero Academia is doing amazingly and I also love it, with what we are talking about, being one of the reasons. I am generally anti hard reboots, but I do sometimes wonder whether Marvel and DC need a "balance patch" with one of the main objectives be to write the characters powers with more consideration around skill, imagination and effort and if need be, to nerf their over all power if necessary to prevent them from being a freak beast.

I am in the same boat there. I don't really like big reboots but I also feel like DC and Marvel would benefit a lot from one. Soft reboots don't quite cut it. A large balance patch, as you called it, would go a long way to allowing them to re-defined the power scales of a lot of their characters to be more in line with what they creatively want from them. It would also make writing future stories way easier as for as consistency goes since there wouldn't be a mountain of previous feats to worry about.

I wouldn't mind Superman being a bit weaker if it meant his intelligence could be played up a lot more in return, as an example. Still a high tier but not necessarily eclipsing Wonder Woman and Aquaman in physicals alone. If it were me doing it Superman would abuse his sensory powers in combat a lot more to analyze his enemy's abilities and weaknesses and use his intelligence to come up with counters for what they can do. His intellect would still be limited by his morality however, which is where other geniuses like Batman and Lex Luthor can get the upper hand/think up more brutally efficient ways of fighting.

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#56 Posted by DreadBringer (125 posts) - - Show Bio

@mr_shazam0920 said:

What AMCU said.

It isn’t that he’s not skilled. It as that the plot literally makes him fight stupidly. Otherwise by feats he would destroy all the opponents he’s faced.

The MCU isn’t like the DCEU. The DCEU shows idolized versions of their characters. They never show one of their own getting their ass kicked (save Aquaman, but that’s after the Snyder direction. Which ironically was their most successful movie). The MCU doesn’t follow such rules. They have no problems showing their heroes getting wrecked. But hey, that’s what we have grown to love and what makes the characters more relatable.

But this makes DCEU as well-liked (or even more) than MCU on sites like here, because it portrays the hero closer to their likes.

@mtuske said:

He took down shield agents when depowered and has shown skill. They just don't like that character so he'll pretty much lose every major fight he's in. With his skill set he should beat Thanos every time without question.

Or just that the fact is Thor isn't the only one strong in the Marvel universe? Good number of villains are portrayed just as strong/even stronger than Thor like Kurse, Ultron (though movie butchered him too), Hela, Eternal Flame Surtur, Thanos.

For the second, yeah, totally will (no fat excuses here)

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Why would Thor ask for a Thanos-killing weapon then? Only Stormbreaker among his skill set can defeat him, the weapon capable of slicing clean through him, but that if Stormbreaker connected through him.

@richubs:

I don't think so chief. Thor Vs Surtur and his minions, he used his hammer in new effective and efficient manner.

Cap does all what Thor does there with the hammer against Thanos. Usual hammer strike? Check. Throwing hammer (and summoning it back)? Check. Spinning hammer? Check. Charged hammer slam down (the one Thanos dodged)? Check. The scene just have such excellent cinematography that it can be illusion on how creative and new the moves Thor used

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#57 Posted by mtuske (3590 posts) - - Show Bio

@dreadbringer: Him asking for a weapon is plot. He had Mjolnir. He can stay in the air spamming lighting and Mjolnir all day with Thanos a helpless brick om the ground. Cap just swumg hammer and connected because they like showcasing Thor. Ragnarok had him throwing Mjolnir to dispatch mutliple foes on its own while engaging others. Caps fight was one on one whole Thor's is 1 vs 1000's. Not comparable.

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#58 Posted by anakon4 (484 posts) - - Show Bio

Well if you consider how childish, inexperienced and naive he is then yeah he is pretty low IQ.

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#59 Posted by Aka_aka_aka_ak (3407 posts) - - Show Bio

He has glimpses of excellence until the plot requires him to lose. He should be way, way more skilled than Cap

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#60 Edited by DreadBringer (125 posts) - - Show Bio

@mtuske said:

@dreadbringer: Him asking for a weapon is plot. He had Mjolnir. He can stay in the air spamming lighting and Mjolnir all day with Thanos a helpless brick om the ground. Cap just swumg hammer and connected because they like showcasing Thor. Ragnarok had him throwing Mjolnir to dispatch mutliple foes on its own while engaging others. Caps fight was one on one whole Thor's is 1 vs 1000's. Not comparable.

But Mjolnir is destroyed, no plot reason.

Yeah and what good does throwing Mjolnir to dispatch multiple foes and engaging others do when fighting one single big baddie? Even fat Thor does that too in Endgame (Stormbreaker instead - I mean WHAT is the reason Thor got Mjolnir and exchanged weapons?)

Yeah this is a biased hate. Hulk can't fly either and people won't say Thor wins completely against Hulk that way. Or saying anyone who can fly automatically wins against those doesn't (Valkyrie vs War Machine or something). You act like Thanos can't throw his sword, or jump (like what he did against Dr. Strange, or what people will use for Hulk argument against Thor).

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#61 Posted by Juggerman40 (763 posts) - - Show Bio

@amcu said:

More like the plot demands for him to be stupid.

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#62 Posted by mrmonster (17135 posts) - - Show Bio

110% yes. Someone with this much fighting experience should not be that incompetent.

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#63 Posted by IndomitableRegal (17687 posts) - - Show Bio

Yup.

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#64 Posted by uugieboogie (13754 posts) - - Show Bio

I don’t think he’s been dumb in combat. Thor is a warrior, he revels in a good fight. That’s his pride. He’s shown proficiency with swords, gungnir, his fists, Mjolnir obviously, Stormbreaker and Mjolnir at the same time etc. He may not be busting out fancy flip moves all the time, but he showed he could duck and weave and jump around the Hulk, tangle with Hela for a period. He thought to destroy the rainbow bridge against Loki. As comical as it was, he tried the suns getting low against the Hulk. And he came up with the plan to resurrect Surtur.

I’m not really sure what you want to get at with he’s a low IQ fighter, but he’s shown to be insightful in battle when he’s not trying to overpower someone. He’s shown strategy and to be a skilled fighter with various weapons. He’s definitely leaning more towards brutish hits, but he’s skilled.

100% this.

@richubs said:

Captain America performed better with Mjolnir than Thor ever did in all these movies.

Steve didn’t do anything Thor hasn’t done besides the shield shield combo. And that doesn’t outweigh the MANY things we’ve seen Thor do that Steve hasn’t.

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#65 Posted by mtuske (3590 posts) - - Show Bio

@dreadbringer: He exchanged weapons due to script. Thanos could jump but that doesn't have the manueverabiity of flying and he can throw his sword that's nice he missed and it landed a mile away. Thor without plot and using his brain could stay far out of range and let lightning and his weapons do all the work. That would make a stupid movie though. Just like realistically Capt Marvel could have flown at light speed grabbed Thnaos and left him to float in space. They just write characters stupid for obvious reasons.

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#66 Posted by DreadBringer (125 posts) - - Show Bio

@mtuske said:

@dreadbringer: He exchanged weapons due to script. Thanos could jump but that doesn't have the manueverabiity of flying and he can throw his sword that's nice he missed and it landed a mile away. Thor without plot and using his brain could stay far out of range and let lightning and his weapons do all the work. That would make a stupid movie though. Just like realistically Capt Marvel could have flown at light speed grabbed Thnaos and left him to float in space. They just write characters stupid for obvious reasons.

The point is not script or what or whatever, my point is that Thor in Endgame also throw his weapon away (Stormbreaker instead of Mjolnir) while engaging with others. It's only effective against crowds of opponents like that.

Yeah what did you even watch the movie comprehensively? That is needed to make up claims like that (either that or you're just blind hater). You claim that he would miss his sword and landed it a mile away. What actually happened? Thanos did throw the sword and miss (Thor ducked) and guess what? The sword returns to him. At least it has boomerang traits. Don't assume his weapon as normal just because little is known about the weapon (just like Cap's shield who returns no matter the angle). And once again....why tf this doesn't apply the same to Hulk as Hulk also can't fly and doesn't have ranged attack. What arguments you use for Hulk against Thor.

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Where do you get that Carol can fly at light speed or whatever? She even loses to Thanos' sword throw at Luis Van speed wise. Light speed claims are considered bullshit in more flexible medias like anime (light speed should produce much deadlier effect to the surroundings), let alone live actions like this. Even Quicksilver isn't portrayed as light speed in the movie. In grabbing contest it's seen that Thanos can fight back against Carol because of his size advantage.

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#67 Posted by SC (18222 posts) - - Show Bio

@metaljimmor: I don't have much more to add, but did want to say it was nice to have a decent conversation about the creative aspect of this topic. It was nice, so cheers!

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#68 Edited by Lan_Fan (18590 posts) - - Show Bio

I imagine someone with 2 years of fighting experience could fight better than Thor. I'm not talking about pure H2H, but in terms of effectiveness in general.

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#69 Posted by mtuske (3590 posts) - - Show Bio

@dreadbringer: How is Mjolnir only effective against crowds of opponents? It was very effective vs Thanos when Cap was rocking his shit. Thanos threw that blade about 30ft Thor can stay hundreds of feet away. If not 1000's as we saw when he arrived in Wakanda with Stormbreaker. Same applies to Hulk. Carol flying should have surrounding effects like sonic booms but this is a movie. Someone at her speed can 100% without fail do exactly what I said. They will never add that because its stupid. These are fantasy fights so we are to suspend logic.

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#70 Edited by shivaa95 (5 posts) - - Show Bio
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#71 Posted by WolverineBatmanFTW (2237 posts) - - Show Bio

Yes. He should logically be the most skilled Avenger.

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#72 Posted by DreadBringer (125 posts) - - Show Bio

@mtuske said:

@dreadbringer: How is Mjolnir only effective against crowds of opponents? It was very effective vs Thanos when Cap was rocking his shit. Thanos threw that blade about 30ft Thor can stay hundreds of feet away. If not 1000's as we saw when he arrived in Wakanda with Stormbreaker. Same applies to Hulk. Carol flying should have surrounding effects like sonic booms but this is a movie. Someone at her speed can 100% without fail do exactly what I said. They will never add that because its stupid. These are fantasy fights so we are to suspend logic.

Yeah, just take some words partially ignoring the full part. I said throwing his weapon away while engaging with others is only effective against crowds of opponents like that (to prevent other opponent backstabbing you or something, but fighting one big enemy alone wouldn't have that happened) and Cap done none of that move against Thanos.

Yeah Thor stay hundreds/thousands of feet away. How will Thor attack again? What guarantees his accuracy for firing lightning that far? This is how flight as superpower is overrated, you won't accomplish much with it alone.

"Same applies to Hulk" means you're one of those admitting Thor > Hulk (they're made out to be equals in most media)?

Debatable for Carol one.

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#73 Posted by mtuske (3590 posts) - - Show Bio

@dreadbringer: He could throw his hammer away and never engage. Ragnarok beginning except he doesn't have to engage anyone. Let Mjolnir and Lightning do all the work. Easy peasy lemon squezy. I'm only using MCU not media. Thor with his skill set should slaughterstomp Hulk the same way as Thanos. Stay away a and let Mjolnir do its thing. The God of Thunder is a safe bet to be pretty accurate with lightning at range. Most action movies are written like this for story purposes.

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#74 Posted by Alexander505 (3104 posts) - - Show Bio

Yes, definitely, he's really stupid and not enough powerful as he should be.

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#75 Posted by MetalJimmor (6839 posts) - - Show Bio

@sc said:

I don't have much more to add, but did want to say it was nice to have a decent conversation about the creative aspect of this topic. It was nice, so cheers!

Same to you! It was an engaging conversation.

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#76 Posted by MrTrey (939 posts) - - Show Bio

Wow, characters aren't as effective as they should be because of shit plot and writing, that's the most outstanding deduction I've ever heard of and not blatantly obvious.

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