Is Mace Windu stronger than Palpatine? (Canon)

I think the general consensus is that Mace is a better combatant but Palpatine is a better force user.

Mace‘s dueling capabilities rival Sids and Vapaad is a hard counter against the Dark Side, but no he’s not stronger and no Sids wasn’t holding back. Mace Windu is just the perfect Jedi to fight Sith.

@samjackson: Is there proof that Vaapad works the same way in canon?

Not a battle

No

Definitely not.

Yes and no. To my understanding Vaapad is just a Sith Lords Kryptonite.

Also Sidious letting Windu win is head canon.

Palpatine is stronger but he wasn't holding back, Palpatine defeats Windu 8/10 we just saw one of the 2 in the film.

@dalootajr:

The way they were fighting they were straight up even and that isn’t what 2/8 looks like.

Palpatine is only a stronger force user however Vaapad is the force equivalent of an Uno reverse.

This.

@crater_maker: Vaapad doesn't work like that in canon so Windu is just powerful enough to defeat Palps.

I would say no. We are baseing maces power on a single fight when he has not done anything on this level again. All statements and other feats point to him being about equal with dooku as a dualist, and feats give dooku a force edge. For all we know, his fight sidious could have been a lucky 1/10 minority victory.

@texasdeathmatch: this

50/50. The polls seem to agree with me on this one.

The Palpatine that Windu fought is not the most powerful version of Sidious.

Windu (canon) is a character who did not have an adequate development to establish his power in a totally concrete way.

The fact is that Windu has no feats to compete with Vader or Sidious if the Sith Lords decide to use all their power there is no fight, it is just a stomp in favor of the Lord Siths.

To say that Windu can reproduce the Feats of Sidious or Vader is complete absurd, at best Windu is a duelist of Lightsaber at the level of Sidious.

Sidious was throwing the fight on purpose to manipulate anakin into intervening

I agree. This Thread happens only because Vaapad was not mentioned in the current canon and many people are just taking advantage of the plot hole to try to impose their own will.

In the end this is irrelevant! The fact is Windu besides this fight is not very impressive his feats and demonstration use in The force do not compare to that of Sidious

@drunkhc:

Maybe because canon hasn't had the 30 years of lore building and expansion as legends did.

"The fact is that Windu has no feats to compete with Vader or Sidious if the Sith Lords decide to use all their power there is no fight, it is just a stomp in favor of the Lord Siths." Mace's lack of feats are made up for with his accolades and quotes putting him on that level.

“You have to be either Mace or Yoda to compete with the Emperor," Lucas says. "If Anakin hadn't got all beat up, he could've beat the Emperor." - George Lucas, Making of Revenge of the Sith

Sidious is a level nine[out of ten]. On this film, Obi is eight-he's moved up-Anakin is a nine; Mace is a nine, Yoda is a nine. They're up with Sidious. - Nick Gillard

Either Vader or Palpatine would take a majority over Windu but they're not stomping him and he isn't as weak as you'd like him to be.

Yes. This shouldn't even be debated. Windu won, accept it.

He shouldn't be, but of course George Lucas and his bad writing make it seem so. The last thing you should expect out of him is consistency. Mace did better against the Emporer than freaking Yoda. Those prequels are a plothole galore.

@heisenberg57: We had a great reasoning behind his victory in the novelization but sadly it isn't canon. The fight could have gone on as well but Anakin interrupted it.

It's explicitly confirmed that Palpatine was not holding back. Here, during an off-screen portion of the duel, Palpatine literally tries to kill Mace:

"PALPATINE is able to use the Force to slam MACE against the wall, but he recovers before the Chancellor can cut him down."

-- Revenge of the Sith: Official Script

In fact, immediately following the fight, Sidious tries to kill Mace with his lightning:

"Okay, well, this sequence always started out with Mace overpowering Palpatine, and then Palpatine using his powers to try to destroy Mace, and Mace deflecting his rays with his lightsaber."

-- Revenge of the Sith: Director's Commentary(George Lucas)

So it's clear that Sidious wasn't holding back, he was actively attempting to kill Mace. As the script confirms, Sidious didn't allow himself to be disarmed, Mace forced the victory:

"They stop as MACE forces PALPATINE to drop his sword."

-- Revenge of the Sith: Official Script

As the movie script details, Palpatine is more powerful than Mace -- he was able to hurl him, like Yoda later did to Sidious. But Mace is the better fighter.

Sidious is more powerful, but Mace is the superior combatant.

@lord_tenebrous: If you're gonna use quotes, don't cut them off partway through.

"Okay, well, this sequence always started out with Mace overpowering Palpatine, and then Palpatine using his powers to try to destroy Mace, and Mace deflecting his rays with his lightsaber. And it always was that Anakin cut the lightsaber out of his hand. But this part where he pretends to lose his power and be weak was something that I added later, 'cause this is, it moved the point where Anakin turns down to this moment right here, and you can see now, that it's very clear that he's, he, he wants him to go on trial so he can pump him for information about how to get these powers."

--Taken from "Revenge of the Sith" Commentary

@heisenberg57:

Mace in no way outperformed Yoda. He breached Sidious' guard with a kick, the strength of which caused Sidious to drop his blade. Yoda on the other hand, overwhelmed Sidious with his assault to the point where the latter dropped his weapon:

"Their swords CLASH. The battle is extremely fast and furious. PALPATINE seeks refuge in the vast Senate Chamber. He gets into the Chancellor's podium and it starts to rise up into the Arena. YODA makes a giant leap into the control pod. The sword fighting is intense in the confined space. Yoda unleashes a ferocious assault on PALPATINE, causing him to almost go over the edge. The Dark Lord drops his lightsaber but recovers with a BLAST OF ENERGY from his hands that surrounds YODA."

-- Revenge of the Sith: Official Script

"He drove Palpatine back across the room, into the Chancellor’s podium. Palpatine hit the controls, and the podium began to rise, carrying him up into the Senate. But the podium moved slowly; Yoda had plenty of time to flip himself into the air and land beside the Emperor, to continue the fight. As the podium rose into the Senate arena, the fight intensified. Twice, Yoda came near to pushing Palpatine over the edge. They were high enough now that a fall could be fatal, even to a Sith Lord. Or a Jedi Master. The cramped space within the pod left little room for maneuvering. An end, I must make. Yoda redoubled the speed of his blows. Palpatine parried one, then another — and then the red lightsaber spun out of his hands and over the edge. Yoda raised his weapon for the final blow."

-- Revenge of the Sith: Junior Novelization(Canon)

While it was the strength of Mace's kick that dropped Sidious, it was the intensity of Yoda's lightsaber attack that dropped Sidious. Yoda's disarming is therefore more impressive, as the only skill feat for Mace's win is that he managed to breach Sidious' guard by kicking him in the first place, indicating superiority -- not as impressive as directly overwhelming someone with your attack.

As for the Force, Sidious ragdolled Mace:

"PALPATINE is able to use the Force to slam MACE against the wall, but he recovers before the Chancellor can cut him down."

-- Revenge of the Sith: Official Script

But it was Yoda who ragdolled Sidious:

https://photos.app.goo.gl/HDUPLZoogFN7ebDe6

Mace overpowered Sidious' lightning while armed with a lightsaber? So did Yoda:

"The Dark Lord drops his lightsaber but recovers with a BLAST OF ENERGY from his hands that surrounds YODA. YODA is deflecting the Sith Lord's lightning bolts. The energy bolts begin to arc back on the Emperor. It looks as if the Dark Lord is doomed."

-- Revenge of the Sith: Official Script

Not only did Yoda match Mace's lightning performance, he surpassed it by later overpowering Sidious' lightning with his bare hands:

https://photos.app.goo.gl/UfZGLygZ4sisL1L5A

@necromancer76: That just show's Palpatine was acting weak in order to turn Anakin after he blasted Windu, he wasn't holding back in the fight nor the lightning exchange.

@dalootajr: I'm not making a particular argument here, I'm just adding the full context to the quote

@necromancer76:

Why would I include that part, when it has absolutely zero relevance to this discussion? Those are two seperate events that do not happen at the same time. Palpatine pretends to lose his power after having his lightning not only deflected, but consecutively overpowered and eventually reflected back onto him. Only after that does he begin to pretend that he's weak.

As I said, not relevant.

https://youtu.be/7_dwkjQHre0

2:31 and onward is covered by this:

"Okay, well, this sequence always started out with Mace overpowering Palpatine, and then Palpatine using his powers to try to destroy Mace, and Mace deflecting his rays with his lightsaber."

2:55 and onward is covered by this:

"But *this part* where he pretends to lose his power and be weak was something that I added later..."

Two distinct events, happening one after the other, not concurrently.

@lord_tenebrous: You literally just included the portion where Windu reflected the lightning. This quote addresses that. It is relevant to the partial quote you provided.

@necromancer76:

You're not watching are you? Or reading. These are not the same events. They do not occur in the same time period. Palpatine does NOT pretend to be weak until well after he's been largely overpowered. As I just detailed. You are stretching this incredibly specific quote to cover entirely different parts of the scene.

Lucas was clear. The movie was clear too. Sidious tries to kill Mace with his lightning. Even says so. Mace deflects it, overpowers it, and reflects it. *this part* where he pretends to be weak. At 2:55. Not 2:31. Or 2:32. Or 2:33.

2:55. Simple as that.

@lord_tenebrous: You're trying to pretend that he wasn't feigning as he was electrocuting. He's literally talking to Anakin while using the ability.

@necromancer76:

Mace was talking to Anakin too. He wasn't feigning until the end, as Lucas explicitly confirmed he was trying to kill him then.

@lord_tenebrous: The end as in, seconds after he started using the ability? Gotcha

@necromancer76:

The end as in, after 14 seconds of blasting Mace. Who deflected it, overpowered it, and reflected it, after which he started pretending to be weak. Clear as day.

@lord_tenebrous: He literally said he's a traitor and then started pleading to Anakin about Padme—while using the ability. I don't understand why this is so complex

@necromancer76:

Neither statement in any way has anything to do with feigning weakness. You're really grasping at straws here. Lucas explicitly confirmed that Sidious was trying to kill Mace with his lightning. Then goes out of his way to differentiate between the part where Sidious starts faking weakness, which he only mentions well after the initial lightning exchange wherein he said Sidious was going all-out. Crystal clear, and yet here you are.

How is this even possible

@necromancer76:

I agree. Here we have the clearest possible statement as to Sidious' intent when blasting Mace:

"Okay, well, this sequence always started out with Mace overpowering Palpatine, and then Palpatine using his powers to try to destroy Mace, and Mace deflecting his rays with his lightsaber."

With Lucas -- further along in his commentary -- making a clear distinction between the two scenes:

"But *this part* where he pretends to lose his power and be weak was something that I added later..."

And yet with positively no basis for your views, you are trying to stretch the last statement to cover events it's not even talking about. The lengths people will go to in order to preserve their views...

@lord_tenebrous: You literally just said no statement had anything to do with feigning weakness, then proceeded to explain how he feigned weakness in a particular statement.

@necromancer76:

No, I said neither of the statements you mentioned in the post I was responding to -- the statements being, "he's a traitor!" and "I have the power to save the one you love. You must choose." -- had anything to do with feigning weakness.

You: He literally said he's a traitor and then started pleading to Anakin about Padme—while using the ability.

Me: Neither statement in any way has anything to do with feigning weakness.

Simple.

@lord_tenebrous: Except it does, how does him pleading to Anakin not count as feigning weakness

@necromancer76:

Because trying to turn Anakin during the prime moment for him to turn does not qualify as feigning weakness. That's just continuing to try and convert him, in an especially ripe moment. He doesn't start to kick in the weakness until later, when he literally says, "don't let him kill me"

@lord_tenebrous: This is purely an interpretation. Why would he bother saying that about Padme if he wasn't trying to look weak in front of Anakin?

@necromancer76:

Because he's trying to turn Anakin. I'm not interpreting anything. You are imposing a narrative not found in the actual statement.

In fact, that Palpatine only started saying he was weak and going to get killed AFTER Anakin failed to respond to Palpatine reminding him of the reasons why he should turn, only lends further support to my stance. Anakin was too slow to respond so Palpatine had to shove him forward by forcing him into immediately choosing.

@lord_tenebrous: You're countering your own argument. The fact that Anakin was slow to respond has nothing to do with Palpatine's intentions. The fact of the matter is, he tried to get Anakin to help him by saying he can save Padme. That's feigning weakness. This isn't an imposition, this is actuality.

@necromancer76:

No, I am not. My interpretation actually makes sense with the scene. Palpatine reminds Anakin why he should turn. Anakin does nothing. Palpatine then forces Anakin to choose immediately by pretending that his life is about to end. Simple.

And yes, you are imposing your narrative onto the statement, which is:

"I have the power to save the one you love. You must choose."

All that comes directly from that statement is that Palpatine is trying to turn Anakin. Nothing more, nothing less. Nowhere does he fake weakness.

@lord_tenebrous: You're trying to link feigning weakness to a direct statement saying "I'm weak." Which doesn't work for anyone above the age of 6. The fact that Palpatine told Anakin that he can save the person he loves IMPLIES "hey, if you don't help me now, I will die, and then I can't help you." This is basic non-verbal communication. I'm certain you are aware of this phenomenon