Is Hunter X Hunter Overrated?

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higherpower

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#51 higherpower  Moderator

@itachus17: My top 10 would look something like this:

  1. Fullmetal Alchemist: Brotherhood
  2. Tokyo Ghoul
  3. The Monogatari Series
  4. Death Note
  5. Magi: The Labyrinth of Magic
  6. One Piece
  7. Gintama
  8. 20th Century Boys
  9. Black Butler
  10. Nanatsu no Taizai

A few on this list are manga only (20th Century Boys, Magi, Black Butler), mainly because I've done more reading than watching lately.

Ehhh you would place SDS above HxH in terms of quality? Why? I mean, even if HxH isn't in your top ten, I would still say that series like Mushi-Shi, Cowboy Bepop, Code Geass, Neon Genesis, Samurai Champloo, Ergo Proxy, Ghost in the Shell (etc.) and what not are all top 10 worthy shows. SDS shouldn't even be mentioned in the same breath as half of those guys (including HxH) especially considering the recent dip in the manga's quality and that it's not even the best thing Suzuki has done lol.

DISCLAIMER: These are entirely subjective opinions, so please don't hate me XD. I'm just interested to hear why.

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higherpower

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#54 higherpower  Moderator

@valor_175: You read TerraForMars??? It's amazing. And I haven't gotten around to making my own top 10 because there are just so many shows I haven't seen yet. /:

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Goldenblue

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Yes but still good, i'd rate it like a 6/10 if not for the Yorknew Arc

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Adi_Frost

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@gearsecond659: Well not really . I was simply talking about myself .
Generally underrated or overrated means a series is rated less than it should be or rated more than it should be . Popularity does have play but you are right , its not that important . But the 2 words themselves are heavily subjective . You can feel a series is underrated or overrated . Its all pointless because a series might be underrated to one but not to another .You can't objectively call it a fact (i used both words when they kinda mean the same but just forget that "mistake" ) that something is good or bad or that it deserves less or more . Though the term overrated is thrown around a lot more than underrated which sometimes bugs me a lot but I understand what they mean ;-) .
For Eg - I do not like one piece and I feel that its overrated but that is ONLY true for ME because that is something that I personally think about that series .
I like hunterxhunter a lot and I feel its underrated which is also ONLY true for ME (I mean , barring everyone else who also thinks what i think) .
And I understand what you mean , that popularity is not what decides how good a series is and I agree 100% . But neither do these 2 terms . Its all just boils down to what YOU like and what I like.

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jashugan

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#58  Edited By jashugan

Some of you people have the worst top 10 list. I'm seeing garbage like Tokyo Ghoul and Seven Deadly Sins.

@mowjack:The chimera ant arc is one of the only two good - great arcs in Hunter x Hunter. Just because the Chimera Ant Arc is great however doesn't mean the rest of the show is.

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GXrevs06

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#59  Edited By GXrevs06

Nami and Robin are sexualized to the extreme. They are basically there for the fan service

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mimisalome

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#60  Edited By mimisalome

I initially thought that HxH is more in line with serious seinen series set in a relatable alternate modern-society themed with crimes, assassins, underground organizations, hustling, espionage, and faction power play.

Its world building was initially cohesive emphasizing well define and predictable combat system, skills, and tactics over relentless power ups/will power/power of friendships seen in most shonen anime.

But then it turned into a ridiculous anything-goes fantasy shonen more similar to One Piece.

And the nen plot device is now being used way too conveniently that its becoming more similar to cheesy "mutant power" plot device of the cheesy X-men series.

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Nope.

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TheOriginalOne

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#63  Edited By TheOriginalOne

@gearsecond659: 1 thing I won't agree with is that luffy was lonely. Yes, you could say he was for a while but he had MANY LOVED ONES around him, even after Ace and Sabo were gone. And yes, he has grown but ONLY a little.

His best feature will always be his good heart that sees the best in people. That and his honest nature.

But that being said, I still think he is still a static character and my least favorite in the crew.

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@gearsecond659: 1 thing I won't agree with is that luffy was lonely. Yes, you could say he was for a while but he had MANY LOVED ONES around him, even after Ace and Sabo were gone. And yes, he has grown but ONLY a little.

His best feature will always be his good heart that sees the best in people. That and his honest nature.

But that being said, I still think he is still a static character and my least favorite in the crew.

He is not a static character.

Over the course of the series, Luffy has had to learn his pritorites. With so many people around him like Zoro sacrificing his own dream and pride for his friends' sake, Luffy has learned to do the same for his own friends. Originally, when coming into conflict with Usopp, Luffy decided to accept Usopp leaving the crew, putting his own role as captain before his friendship with Usopp. But, after seeing how he almost lost Usopp along with the rest of his crew forever, Luffy's mentality has changed. Post timeskip, Luffy is more protective of his friends, best exemplified when Sanji left the crew. Instead of accepting it like he did in the past, Luffy went to great lengths to get him back, even sacrificing his pride as captain, which Zoro forewarned him about doing, all for the sake of reclaiming his friend. If this isn't character growth I don't know what is and I don't see how you can honestly say Luffy is static.

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TheOriginalOne

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#65  Edited By TheOriginalOne

@gearsecond659:

His dream is still pirate king. Zoro's dream is still to be the best swordsman in the world. None of the straw hats have left their dream.

Lol, his mentality is still the same. He wanted to protect his friends before and after the timeskip. The only difference is that after the time skip, he has the more power to that. Luffy's mentality is still the same towards his friends. THAT HASN'T CHANGED.

Luffy went so far for sanji because he understood what Sanji was going through, what his family was making him do and that SANJI DIDN'T ACTUALLY WANT TO LEAVE. In Ussop's case, HE ACTUALLY DID WANT TO LEAVE BECAUSE OF THE SHIP.

I am not saying he hasn't grown but not as much as you are making it out to be. What he was doing for a friend has been shown time and time again where he will risk his life for people WHO ARE NOT EVEN HIS FRIENDS.

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@gearsecond659:

His dream is still pirate king. Zoro's dream is still to be the best swordsman in the world. None of the straw hats have left their dream.

Zoro was willing to give up his PRIDE as a swordsman.

Lol, his mentality is still the same. He wanted to protect his friends before and after the timeskip. The only difference is that after the time skip, he has the more power to that. Luffy's mentality is still the same towards his friends. THAT HASN'T CHANGED.

Have you even read my post. I mean you are not even willing to even consider the fact that Luffy has changed.

Luffy went so far for sanji because he understood what Sanji was going through, what his family was making him do and that SANJI DIDN'T ACTUALLY WANT TO LEAVE. In Ussop's case, HE ACTUALLY DID WANT TO LEAVE BECAUSE OF THE SHIP.

The vice versa is also true. Sanji did want to leave, not because the family forced him to, but because his mentor's life was on the line. Sanji made a conscious decision to leave the crew to protect him, so he wanted to leave. The reason the fight between Luffy and Usopp was so impactful was because we could see Usopp's wavering determination during the fight. We could see it in his eyes, how conflicted he was fighting the same man who recruited him and gave him a purpose and leaving his friends behind. This is why Usopp became the Sogeking: as a way to join the crew again without showing his face to them. So to say Sanji absolutely didn't want to leave and that Usopp absolutely did want to leave is a little misguided and since the two cancel each other out, my argument for Luffy's character development still stands.

I am not saying he hasn't grown but not as much as you are making it out to be. What he was doing for a friend has been shown time and time again where he will risk his life for people WHO ARE NOT EVEN HIS FRIENDS.

Except, most of the time pride is not on the line when he risk his life for strangers. Luffy is a prideful person, this is fact. This is why Luffy makes seemingly irrational decisions all in the name of pride. So for Luffy to have to choose between his pride as a captain and getting his friend back is one of the greatest conflicts Luffy has faced, which ahs pushed forward his character development. Oda intentionally did this to because the consequences of picking friends over pride was foreshadowed by Zoro, and come Totoland, Luffy has decided to let himself get beat up by his crewmate to convince me to join the crew again. Sanji even points out that beating up his own captain alone should make him deserving of being kicked out of the crew.

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@gearsecond659: Well not really . I was simply talking about myself .

Generally underrated or overrated means a series is rated less than it should be or rated more than it should be . Popularity does have play but you are right , its not that important . But the 2 words themselves are heavily subjective . You can feel a series is underrated or overrated . Its all pointless because a series might be underrated to one but not to another .You can't objectively call it a fact (i used both words when they kinda mean the same but just forget that "mistake" ) that something is good or bad or that it deserves less or more . Though the term overrated is thrown around a lot more than underrated which sometimes bugs me a lot but I understand what they mean ;-) .

While I agree that, for the most part, being considered underrated or overrated is subjective, it is somewhat rooted in fact. Critical reception is quantifiable and from the amount of praise or complaints a given anime gets in addition to our own feelings on said show, we can then determine which word applies to that show. So I would say a combination of both facts and opinions make up how a show is labeled underrated and overrated.

As for words being thrown around, I honestly think underrated is thrown around a lot. Personally, I don't think Hunter X Hunter is underrated. Everyone recognizes its genius (in some areas). I mean it's not like people are trashing Hunter X Hunter. From a popularity standpoint, the only argument you can make is that Hunter X Hunter is underrated because it is deserving of more popularity, and this logic results in the word getting thrown around way too often because there are a lot more factors, other than an anime's quality, that makes that anime popular. For example, for Dragon Ball Z it was the time period.

For Eg - I do not like one piece and I feel that its overrated but that is ONLY true for ME because that is something that I personally think about that series .

Now I respect your opinion, but out of curiosity, can you elaborate why? I am not attacking your opinion, simply intrigued as to how people from outside the fanbase view One Piece.

Aside from that, I must also mention that you are looking at this from a popularity standpoint because no one is saying One Piece is a flawless masterpiece (except for AnimeFanTalk :( ).

I like hunterxhunter a lot and I feel its underrated which is also ONLY true for ME (I mean , barring everyone else who also thinks what i think) .

I see your point, though as I've said before, it is not entirely subjective.

And I understand what you mean , that popularity is not what decides how good a series is and I agree 100% . But neither do these 2 terms . Its all just boils down to what YOU like and what I like.

I agree to a certain extent. Facts to play a significant role.

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TheOriginalOne

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@gearsecond659: He was, yes but that is development for him. And he was willing to but he didn't. Luffy never gave up becoming pirate king.

I am not saying he isn't changing but no as much as you are claiming him to be.

Again, that doesn't prove he changed. Luffy still wanted to save his friends, that part never changed of him. And I never said he didn't grow in both those situations but not enough to change his entire character.

Again, he is prideful but never when it comes to his friends. Most of the time, it is to show his strength or for people who look down on him or his friends. And he is not as prideful of a person as Zoro, he is more caring and free-going. What happened with sanji was almost the same with incident with Robin. She said she didn't want to join but he knew that she did and he did exactly the same thing for her, as he did for Sanji - Save/Help them.

That part of him hasn't changed. This is common for his character.

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@gearsecond659: He was, yes but that is development for him. And he was willing to but he didn't. Luffy never gave up becoming pirate king.

I think you are misunderstanding. His dream wasn't on the line. His pride was, and Zoro even said, if a captain loses his pride as a captain, the crew will fall apart.

I am not saying he isn't changing but no as much as you are claiming him to be.

Why not. How fair Luffy is willing to go to protect himself from getting lonely is very intriguing and I think you are kind of being close minded on this subject.

Again, that doesn't prove he changed. Luffy still wanted to save his friends, that part never changed of him. And I never said he didn't grow in both those situations but not enough to change his entire character.

He is still willing to save his friends, but the lengths to which he is willing to have changed. Pre time skip, he would do anything to save his friends, except if his pride was called into question such as with Usopp. However, post time skip, this is thrown out the window as Luffy lets himself lose his pride as a captain in order to rescue Sanji.

Again, he is prideful but never when it comes to his friends. Most of the time, it is to show his strength or for people who look down on him or his friends. And he is not as prideful of a person as Zoro, he is more caring and free-going. What happened with sanji was almost the same with incident with Robin. She said she didn't want to join but he knew that she did and he did exactly the same thing for her, as he did for Sanji - Save/Help them.

Again, with Robin, Luffy's pride wasn't on the line. If he saved Robin, he would still keep his pride as a captain. So comparing Robin to Sanji and Usopp is like comparing apples to oranges.

As for Luffy's pride, Luffy's prideful nature has always been apart of his character. And it is not just to prove himself or the crew to others. Take Usopp asking Rayleigh for the location of the One Piece. He didn't stop Usopp because he wanted to prove himself or something. He did that because it would ruin the adventure. It would ruin his pride to just be given the location rather than finding the One Piece himself. I would argue that Luffy is more prideful than Zoro. Zoro is much more willing to sacrifice his pride than Luffy.

That part of him hasn't changed. This is common for his character.

Again, Luffy wanting to save his crewmates doesn't change, but the lengths he will go to do so has.

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I initially thought that HxH is more in line with serious seinen series set in a relatable alternate modern-society themed with crimes, assassins, underground organizations, hustling, espionage, and faction power play.

Its world building was initially cohesive emphasizing well define and predictable combat system, skills, and tactics over relentless power ups/will power/power of friendships seen in most shonen anime.

But then it turned into a ridiculous anything-goes fantasy shonen more similar to One Piece.

When exactly did it turn into an "anything-goes" shonen? I think it has maintained the same level of cohesiveness throughout the whole story from a world building perspective.

BTW, One Piece is not an "anything-goes" shonen. If you disagree, I will literally debate you on this because that completely degrades the series to being nothing but a childish cartoon.

And the nen plot device is now being used way too conveniently that its becoming more similar to cheesy "mutant power" plot device of the cheesy X-men series.

The nen system is considered to be one of the most developed power systems in all of Shounen. Mutant powers don't even hold a candle to it.

BTw, X-Men isn't cheesy. God Loves, Man Kills is an powerful and empowering story and is one of the best superhero comics ever written.

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TheOriginalOne

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#71  Edited By TheOriginalOne

@gearsecond659: Dude, I am understanding but when it comes to his friends, Luffy has always been like that. he throws his pride out the window to help his friends or people in need.

He always had friends though? His childhood was never really filled with loneliness like Sanji was. Always wanting to protect your loved ones/friends is not character development - its common sense.

Pre-time skip, he was the same. He was willing to take the beating from Ussop as well, that is why he was holding back, even though some of the crew said he wasn't. Same with saving Ace - he knew he would have been destroyed in a fight with the admirals. He even lowered his pride to take help from Ivankov for the second time when he gets injected with the Emporio Tension Hormone again.

And most of his pride moments come in 1 vs 1 fights. Never when it is about a friend.

I agree, Luffy will go to great lengths to save his friend but that is not something new for him. He has always done that. He put himself in danger, even death to save his friends. He would not mind getting beat to a pulp to save his friends. All of that was hurting his pride but he did it.

I don't think the length to which he will go to save his friends has changed. I think this sanji arc just solidifed that.

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mimisalome

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#72  Edited By mimisalome

@gearsecond659 said:

When exactly did it turn into an "anything-goes" shonen? I think it has maintained the same level of cohesiveness throughout the whole story from a world building perspective.

I say its started with the Greed Island Arc which turn the series into an Isekai/"Trapped-inside-the-game-world" trope show. Ridiculous stuff happens that are borderline breaking the Nen-mechanics logic.

Greed Island creators would imply high tiers reality warping specialists similar to Alluka and such overpowered powers were demonstrated wholesale during the entire arc and nobody is questioning it.

I mean the teleportation feats alone should make it a high tier abilities that should be exploited by everyone who are smart enough to consider the significance of instantaneous travel.

Then you have the Chimera Ant Arc that share similarities with Enies Lobby Arc of One Piece.

I don't know which arc came first but it turned the show into an furry fantasy genre filled with goofy looking animals with ridiculously cheesy powers. I mean like that surfing humanoid lion or Lie Detection Rocket-armed humanoid Wolf.

The premise of the current arc is pretty much a rip-off of One Piece and considering that the setting is supposed to be modern society with filled with high-tech computers, cars, high tech fire-arms, internet, modern military weapon system... it would be pretty stretch to believe that 80 percent of the planet is still left unexplored.

BTw, X-Men isn't cheesy

It is cheesy.

besides the idea that almost all characters in it are acting like teenagers in their raging hormone period that will hit on each other every time they find it convenient, or the rampant portrayal of cringe-worthy emotional meltdowns coupled with cheesy speeches.... the concept of "mutant power" was a very poorly executed plot device that breaks any suspension of disbelief.

Mutant power is an all inclusive "scientific?" excuse to justify ridiculously retarded powers like being a paper-thin entity that can slip right through paper thin spaces, or power that makes someone an unmovable obese person, or mutant power that can give other people powers via drawing them tatooes.

It looks like these mutant powers were conceived by pre-pubescent little boys (probably the reason why the writing is equivalently childish and angsty) that just write up stuff because they think that they look cool... for pre-pubscent boys.

Now i don't mind such power concepts in "superhero" fictions made for teenagers but to tie it with a scientific notion of "biological mutation"?

Any educated person will have a problems suspending their disbelieve over such ridiculously stupid and cheesy premise.

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@gearsecond659: Dude, I am understanding but when it comes to his friends, Luffy has always been like that. he throws his pride out the window to help his friends or people in need.

Like when? When has he thrown his pride out the window to save someone. If you are citing from the time during Sabondy, he didn't lose his pride. Choosing to run away didn't ruin his image as an authoritative figure to the rest of the crew.

He always had friends though? His childhood was never really filled with loneliness like Sanji was. Always wanting to protect your loved ones/friends is not character development - its common sense.

Luffy's childhood was full of loneliness, it just was never spotlighted. Luffy even said that he didn't want to be alone, a statement that wouldn't really fit a kid who had a lot of friends. I mean Luffy was desperate to befriend Ace and Sabo, most likely because they were his first friends.

As for protecting your friends, that isn't all there is to it. The reason Luffy protects his friend, the reason Luffy surrounds himself with a large group of people is because he doesn't want to go back to feeling lonely. It's not Luffy's love of his crew that drives him, it is his fear of going back to being alone that drives him to protecting his nakama. Just look at the death of Ace. He was devastated because he thought that Ace's death would make him alone again, until he reminded himself of his crew. He still had his support system in place to save him from loneliness, and he decided to train to protect them so he wouldn't be alone again.

Pre-time skip, he was the same. He was willing to take the beating from Ussop as well, that is why he was holding back, even though some of the crew said he wasn't. Same with saving Ace - he knew he would have been destroyed in a fight with the admirals. He even lowered his pride to take help from Ivankov for the second time when he gets injected with the Emporio Tension Hormone again.

Completely different situations. Luffy didn't even fight Sanji back. At least Luffy fought Usopp, and while he didn't fight at full strength, this wasn't out of losing his pride but out of respect for his crew mate.

In regards to saving Ace, he didn't lower his pride by not fighting the admirals. His intention in the first place wasn't even to fight the admirals. It was to save Ace. Not getting sidetracked in the process is not losing pride.

As for taking help from Ivankov, Luffy takes help from people all the time, and he still maintained a prideful outlook before his character change.

And most of his pride moments come in 1 vs 1 fights. Never when it is about a friend.

Not necessarily. I've already told you about the Rayleigh moment. And as for his pride not being about his friend, look at Usopp. He wanted Usopp to come back, that's why he was crying. But as a captain, he had to maintain his pride to successfully lead the crew.

I agree, Luffy will go to great lengths to save his friend but that is not something new for him. He has always done that. He put himself in danger, even death to save his friends. He would not mind getting beat to a pulp to save his friends. All of that was hurting his pride but he did it.

Again, I think you are looking at this the wrong way. Luffy's pride as a CAPTAIN is what's at stake. If Luffy dies fighting for his friends, that doesn't hurt his pride. That's one of the most honorable things he can do.

But if he breaks his pride, Zoro even said the whole crew will fall apart. Luffy has never really been willing to put his pride on the line, especially considering that it has been apart of him since childhood.

I don't think the length to which he will go to save his friends has changed. I think this sanji arc just solidifed that.

I beg to differ. Luffy has never been willing to put his pride on the line.

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BlackLegRaph

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It's definitely good, but the one aspect I'd say is overrated is the praise that it subverts shounen tropes. In many cases, those tropes don't even exist, HxH does it as well, or any changes are actually less entertaining than following the trope.

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I'm pretty sure I haven't seen it all but from what I've seen it's solid at best. I do not get the "best anime ever" hype at all. I really enjoy a few characters (Killua, Hisoka, etc.) but I've only seen ~15 anime and there is a 0% chance this is in my top 5.

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TheOriginalOne

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@gearsecond659: Again, if it wasn't spotlighted, then it wasn't as bad. He was never alone. He had people who loved him and was with him. He befriended sabo and ace because he didn't have many kids around the same age as him but that still doesn't mean he was alone. You forget, it is Luffy's nature to befriend people.

It is not the feeling of loneliness. No one wants to be alone, that is a given. Ig you say that about luffy, you can say the same thing about many characters. He is never lonely like Sanji. And he was heartbroken by ace's death BECAUSE ACE WAS HIS BROTHER. Anyone would be sad because of that. Stop trying to give some a different meaning.

I know he fought Ussop back and I know he didn't fight sanji back. But how was that losing his pride? It was actually helping to increase his pride as he was getting beat for a JUST REASON. You keep saying he is more prideful than Zoro but Zoro actually never ask for help. Luffy does - that alone shows Zoro has more pride.

And he originally wanted to retrieve Usopp right away despite their disagreement, but Zoro's reason made him understand that Usopp must apologize before being re-accepted into the crew. So yes, as I said, his love for his friends take precedence over anything.

You are trying to say he is not a static character BECAUSE OF 2 INSTANCES? After knowing he is the main character and One Piece has been going on for 20/21 years? Really?

Rayleigh moment? When he asked Rayleigh for help? That was desperation and that doesn't change his entire character. And as you said, luffy likes to ask for help so what was wrong with him asking help from Rayleigh in that instance? And if you find that instance where he gave up his pride, then you should also accept the instance when he has asked others to help him as well. Especially when he was getting whopped.

Why would the crew fall apart? Because he wanted to save his friend? He did that with Nami, Zoro, Robin and even Chopper. That is the reason why many people like Luffy - his love for his friend.

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@theoriginalone said:

@gearsecond659: Again, if it wasn't spotlighted, then it wasn't as bad. He was never alone. He had people who loved him and was with him. He befriended sabo and ace because he didn't have many kids around the same age as him but that still doesn't mean he was alone. You forget, it is Luffy's nature to befriend people.

I am not arguing that Luffy's loneliness was as bad as Sanji's. However, it was bad. I mean I think the reason he was so close with Shanks was because he had no one else to talk to. And it was hard for Luffy to really interact with people because Garp was training him to his limits, when Luffy said multiple times he doesn't want to do it. And I already addressed why exactly it is Luffy's nature to befriend people in my previous post.

The reason Luffy protects his friend, the reason Luffy surrounds himself with a large group of people is because he doesn't want to go back to feeling lonely.

It is not the feeling of loneliness. No one wants to be alone, that is a given. Ig you say that about luffy, you can say the same thing about many characters. He is never lonely like Sanji. And he was heartbroken by ace's death BECAUSE ACE WAS HIS BROTHER. Anyone would be sad because of that. Stop trying to give some a different meaning.

What?! How can you deny this. Ace was literally the first person Luffy truly befriended. That's why he was so grateful for Ace saving him from bandits. I mean Luffy flat out says he wants to be Ace's friend because there is no one else to be friends with. He would be all alone. So Luffy's connection to Ace was far deeper than brotherhood. It was having a person who saved from loneliness die before his eyes. And after he lost Ace, he had thought that he had lost everything. As if he felt like he had no one else and that he was back to being a 7 year old kid who didn't have anywhere else to go. So it's not like I'm giving it a different meaning you just don't believe there is a deeper meaning, which is baffling considering how Oda has done a great job establishing it.

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I know he fought Ussop back and I know he didn't fight sanji back. But how was that losing his pride? It was actually helping to increase his pride as he was getting beat for a JUST REASON. You keep saying he is more prideful than Zoro but Zoro actually never ask for help. Luffy does - that alone shows Zoro has more pride.

Zoro never ask for help... You mean other than the time he went on all fours and begged Mihawk, the man who he aspired to beat, to train him... Okay pal.

As for Luffy, he did lose his pride as a captain. Sanji beating up his captain undermines Luffy's role as the leader of the crew. This is what Zoro foreshadowed and what multiple theorist such as Joy Boy have revolved predictions around.

And he originally wanted to retrieve Usopp right away despite their disagreement, but Zoro's reason made him understand that Usopp must apologize before being re-accepted into the crew. So yes, as I said, his love for his friends take precedence over anything.

How does this prove anything. Luffy ultimately decides that he is not going to chase after Usopp and he flat out ignores Usopp's pleads to rejoin the crew. If Luffy's friendship truly took precedence over everything, including is pride as captain, then he would have allowed Usopp to join right away.

If you're trying to tell me that Luffy only did this because Zoro, Luffy follows his heart. He isn't one to take orders for anyone, even Zoro. I mean he even fought against Zoro because he thought Zoro had murdered the people who fed him meat.

You are trying to say he is not a static character BECAUSE OF 2 INSTANCES? After knowing he is the main character and One Piece has been going on for 20/21 years? Really?

*face palms*

This is really disrespecting the character of Luffy. First of all, you are disregarding everything that has happened in between those events including Ace's death, The Straw Hat Crew vs Kuma, and Luffy's flashback, providing us with much more development for Luffy. So I don't really think you understand what I am saying because if you did, you would at least recognize that I am pulling from more than just "2 Instances."

Rayleigh moment? When he asked Rayleigh for help? That was desperation and that doesn't change his entire character. And as you said, luffy likes to ask for help so what was wrong with him asking help from Rayleigh in that instance? And if you find that instance where he gave up his pride, then you should also accept the instance when he has asked others to help him as well. Especially when he was getting whopped.

The Rayleigh moment where he stopped Usopp from asking him where the One Piece was. I mentioned this in my previous post.

Take Usopp asking Rayleigh for the location of the One Piece. He didn't stop Usopp because he wanted to prove himself or something. He did that because it would ruin the adventure. It would ruin his pride to just be given the location rather than finding the One Piece himself.

Why would the crew fall apart? Because he wanted to save his friend? He did that with Nami, Zoro, Robin and even Chopper. That is the reason why many people like Luffy - his love for his friend.

*face palms*

Because Luffy would lose credibility as an authoritative figure. If someone could literally argue with Luffy, fight Luffy, leave the crew and then be invited back by Luffy, how is anyone suppose to take Luffy seriously. The captain is suppose to be respected by his crewmates, and if he doesn't have that, the crew can't work at its full potential.

I am literally paraphrasing what Zoro said after Usopp left.

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@theoriginalone said:

@gearsecond659: Again, if it wasn't spotlighted, then it wasn't as bad. He was never alone. He had people who loved him and was with him. He befriended sabo and ace because he didn't have many kids around the same age as him but that still doesn't mean he was alone. You forget, it is Luffy's nature to befriend people.

I am not arguing that Luffy's loneliness was as bad as Sanji's. However, it was bad. I mean I think the reason he was so close with Shanks was because he had no one else to talk to. And it was hard for Luffy to really interact with people because Garp was training him to his limits, when Luffy said multiple times he doesn't want to do it. And I already addressed why exactly it is Luffy's nature to befriend people in my previous post.

The reason Luffy protects his friend, the reason Luffy surrounds himself with a large group of people is because he doesn't want to go back to feeling lonely.

It is not the feeling of loneliness. No one wants to be alone, that is a given. Ig you say that about luffy, you can say the same thing about many characters. He is never lonely like Sanji. And he was heartbroken by ace's death BECAUSE ACE WAS HIS BROTHER. Anyone would be sad because of that. Stop trying to give some a different meaning.

What?! How can you deny this. Ace was literally the first person Luffy truly befriended. That's why he was so grateful for Ace saving him from bandits. I mean Luffy flat out says he wants to be Ace's friend because there is no one else to be friends with. He would be all alone. So Luffy's connection to Ace was far deeper than brotherhood. It was having a person who saved from loneliness die before his eyes. And after he lost Ace, he had thought that he had lost everything. As if he felt like he had no one else and that he was back to being a 7 year old kid who didn't have anywhere else to go. So it's not like I'm giving it a different meaning you just don't believe there is a deeper meaning, which is baffling considering how Oda has done a great job establishing it.

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I know he fought Ussop back and I know he didn't fight sanji back. But how was that losing his pride? It was actually helping to increase his pride as he was getting beat for a JUST REASON. You keep saying he is more prideful than Zoro but Zoro actually never ask for help. Luffy does - that alone shows Zoro has more pride.

Zoro never ask for help... You mean other than the time he went on all fours and begged Mihawk, the man who he aspired to beat, to train him... Okay pal.

As for Luffy, he did lose his pride as a captain. Sanji beating up his captain undermines Luffy's role as the leader of the crew. This is what Zoro foreshadowed and what multiple theorist such as Joy Boy have revolved predictions around.

And he originally wanted to retrieve Usopp right away despite their disagreement, but Zoro's reason made him understand that Usopp must apologize before being re-accepted into the crew. So yes, as I said, his love for his friends take precedence over anything.

How does this prove anything. Luffy ultimately decides that he is not going to chase after Usopp and he flat out ignores Usopp's pleads to rejoin the crew. If Luffy's friendship truly took precedence over everything, including is pride as captain, then he would have allowed Usopp to join right away.

If you're trying to tell me that Luffy only did this because Zoro, Luffy follows his heart. He isn't one to take orders for anyone, even Zoro. I mean he even fought against Zoro because he thought Zoro had murdered the people who fed him meat.

You are trying to say he is not a static character BECAUSE OF 2 INSTANCES? After knowing he is the main character and One Piece has been going on for 20/21 years? Really?

*face palms*

This is really disrespecting the character of Luffy. First of all, you are disregarding everything that has happened in between those events including Ace's death, The Straw Hat Crew vs Kuma, and Luffy's flashback, providing us with much more development for Luffy. So I don't really think you understand what I am saying because if you did, you would at least recognize that I am pulling from more than just "2 Instances."

Rayleigh moment? When he asked Rayleigh for help? That was desperation and that doesn't change his entire character. And as you said, luffy likes to ask for help so what was wrong with him asking help from Rayleigh in that instance? And if you find that instance where he gave up his pride, then you should also accept the instance when he has asked others to help him as well. Especially when he was getting whopped.

The Rayleigh moment where he stopped Usopp from asking him where the One Piece was. I mentioned this in my previous post.

Take Usopp asking Rayleigh for the location of the One Piece. He didn't stop Usopp because he wanted to prove himself or something. He did that because it would ruin the adventure. It would ruin his pride to just be given the location rather than finding the One Piece himself.

Why would the crew fall apart? Because he wanted to save his friend? He did that with Nami, Zoro, Robin and even Chopper. That is the reason why many people like Luffy - his love for his friend.

*face palms*

Because Luffy would lose credibility as an authoritative figure. If someone could literally argue with Luffy, fight Luffy, leave the crew and then be invited back by Luffy, how is anyone suppose to take Luffy seriously. The captain is suppose to be respected by his crewmates, and if he doesn't have that, the crew can't work at its full potential.

I am literally paraphrasing what Zoro said after Usopp left.

Oh and the argument that everyone feels loneliness doesn't hold weight because Luffy feels loneliness to the extent that he is willing to take physical pain if it increases his chances of not being alone.

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It's definitely good, but the one aspect I'd say is overrated is the praise that it subverts shounen tropes. In many cases, those tropes don't even exist, HxH does it as well, or any changes are actually less entertaining than following the trope.

@y2g said:

I'm pretty sure I haven't seen it all but from what I've seen it's solid at best. I do not get the "best anime ever" hype at all. I really enjoy a few characters (Killua, Hisoka, etc.) but I've only seen ~15 anime and there is a 0% chance this is in my top 5.

I completely agree with both of you in that, around Hunter X HUnters' conception, those Shounen Tropes weren't even prevalent and simply subverting them doesn't increase the overall quality. I also agree that there are only a few enjoyable characters, but that's not enough to call it "the best."

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#80  Edited By TheOriginalOne

@gearsecond659:Again, that was not that bad. He did have people to look after him. The village people did love him as when he set out, they all saw him off. He was friends with shanks because that was his nature - to make friends dude. And he inspired to become a pirate BECAUSE OF THEM. That is why he stabbed himself with a knife under his left eye to prove himself to Shanks so that he could join them in their adventures. Garp was trying to make his stronger, yes it was tough but he wasn't as lonely as you claim him to be.

I understand he was lonely, I never denied that but not to a bad degree. He still had people who talked to him and looked after him. That was my point. And no, ace was not the first person he before, he had friends/people who cared for him before that, like shanks or that bar lady. The first person, who was his age that he befriended was ace.

Lets go back: The people who were friends with luffy/loved him:

Makino, Wood Slap, Gyoru (who always supported Luffy lifestyle of becoming a pirate), heck even chicken. As I said, in his village - Foosha Village, which was a small village, he had people who loved him and took care of him. Then he met pirates friends like shanks and his crew who really liked luffy as well.

After Luffy was saved from those pirates by ace and sabo and when ace asked why he didn't tell the pirates about the treasure, he said that he would not have Ace as a friend anymore and that he does not have anyone on the island to rely on since he cannot go back to Foosha Village and he does not trust bandits. Plus he does not wish to be alone.

Again, he was only alone on Dawn island and it wasn't for long as ace and sabo became his friend. So to say his loneliness was "bad" is extreme.

That was once. Luffy asked for help from Rayleigh as well or did you forget that. You claimed that Luffy might have more pride than Zoro but have no proof to back that up.

If sanji beating him decreases his pride, then so does Ussop beating him. Or are you now the one who says when Luffy pride is damaged and when it is not? Both situations are the same - the only difference is that Sanji matter is MUCH MORE sensitive than the Ussop matter and that is why Luffy didn't choose to fight back.

So, in the end, Luffy lost his pride in both events. And just like in both events, Sanji, similar to Ussop, broke down in tears, saying that he wanted to return to the crew but did not want to leave his family to die. I can't believe you see 1 thing like something but not the other, even though they were similar events.

Luffy didn't take Zoro command, HE TOOK HIS ADVICE. What you are not understanding here is that luffy is very softhearted when it comes to his friends/family and will throw away his rules to SAVE THEM.

How is it disresp[cting him? It is the truth and it seems you don't like it. That flashback arc showed why he loved ace so much. The Kuma arc showed that he loved his friends, so much that he was willing to do anything for them, just like how he did with ace/sabo when he was young. It was development but his character as a whole didn't change.

Oh, I am sorry about that. But do you even know why he did that? That was not about pride but his sense of adventure. This is the direct quote from him:

"I DON'T wanna hear where this treasure is!! I don't even wanna hear if there IS a treasure or not!!! I'm dunno anything about it, but... ...everybody set out to sea, risking their lives to search for it!!! If this old man to tell us anything about it here and now, then I'll on refuse to become Pirate King! If we're gonna have a boring adventure like that, then I would rather die!"

He even believes that the Pirate King would be the one on the entire ocean with the most freedom for adventuring.

Again, his crew DOES RESPECT HIM. When Ussop fought him, NO ONE LOST RESPECT. When Sanji fought him, Nami, who was with him, knew that luffy was doing that for his friend. Luffy didn't lose anyone respect in that scene, respect grew for him. Ace used to try and kill Whitebread as well, why didn't whitebread crew lose respect for him? Because they knew his power but also his love for his sones.

That is LITERALLY the same with Luffy. His crew knows that he is strong but sometimes, fighting back in not always the answer.

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@gearsecond659: And zoro said to him - "if you can't be decisive, who will believe in you".

http://www.mangabb.co/one-piece/chapter-333/18

It was never about the fight, IT WAS ABOUT HIS DECISION. He said Luffy has to KNOW what he wants to do. In that Sanji's case, that couldn't be any clearer - he wanted to save his friend and he was going to do it no matter how he did it.

It was never about pride, in fact after the sanji case, I think I have more respect for Luffy.

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@gearsecond659: well you see , the problem is the facts that you are talking about are also subjective. They are not really facts . Think about it . Facts are absolute , you can't go against them . The sun rises from the east , Humans body is 70% water , these are facts . They are proven but in literature and fiction , nothing is factual . The same facts that a person would say are also simply subjective points . I hope you see what I am talking about .

And to why I do not like one piece . Hmm . Slow Pacing ( this was more of a problem in the beginning yet beginning is my fav part out of all of one piece) , little to no character development , little to no story progression , the story is dragged too much -there are overarching more important plot yet it's never addressed -it gets addressed once in a life time or something lol - and some other problems.

I don't want to derail from the thread . This is not a one piece thread so back to the topic .

When it comes to facts in manga , all you can say is one manga has sold more than other . But as we know , that doesn't account to anything either . Over all the years (4 years haha, not much) I have watched anime , I have realized that there are NO facts . Critical thinking of an anime is also 100% subjective . Eg would be something critically acclaimed by some to be bad might me the exact same thing that is critically acclaimed by some to be good . There is not really any end point to it . Arguments are all about opinion. You can provide scans to help your argument which would make someone's argument stronger than others but that would still be his opinion because that's his interpretation. See , it's complicated and contradictory to some degree .

All I want to say is , No , there are no facts in determining a better form. art/manga. The facts are also subjective in a topic like that . (Remember , I am strictly talking about determining the quality of a series . there are things that are facts like powers, how they work , etc , but when determining which series is better , it's all subjective) .

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The 2011 adaptation can genuinely be called one of the best animes ever. I personally don't like the manga that much. But its storyline, characters, themes, complexity and the way it overturns many standard shonen tropes is bloody brilliant and better than almost any other series. Imo the only area where it can improve is having an overarching plot that is as gripping as its individual arcs.

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No it is not overrated, just the anime it get usually compared with are. Hunter X Hunter is distinctly better than Dragonball, Naruto, One Piece, Bleach and so on, but that makes it not the best anime ever.

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No.

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No it is not overrated, just the anime it get usually compared with are. Hunter X Hunter is distinctly better than Dragonball, Naruto, One Piece, Bleach and so on, but that makes it not the best anime ever.

Care to explain why it's better than Naruto and One Piece? Just curious.

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#88  Edited By Marishtar

@gearsecond659 said:
@thebuckaronatr said:

No it is not overrated, just the anime it get usually compared with are. Hunter X Hunter is distinctly better than Dragonball, Naruto, One Piece, Bleach and so on, but that makes it not the best anime ever.

Care to explain why it's better than Naruto and One Piece? Just curious.

Serious question? I could make a case for the One Piece(especially due to outstanding world building and fantastic character introductions) manga(the anime on the other hand...), but Naruto has regardless of manga or anime absolutely nothing on HXH.

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@gearsecond659 said:
@thebuckaronatr said:

No it is not overrated, just the anime it get usually compared with are. Hunter X Hunter is distinctly better than Dragonball, Naruto, One Piece, Bleach and so on, but that makes it not the best anime ever.

Care to explain why it's better than Naruto and One Piece? Just curious.

Serious question? I could make a case for the One Piece(especially due to outstanding world building and fantastic character introductions) manga(the anime on the other hand...), but Naruto has regardless of manga or anime absolutely nothing on HXH.

Yea, I can somewhat agree with that. Especially after the first timeskip. I was mainly referring to the Zabuza arc, but I realize that that is only one arc.

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@gearsecond659:Again, that was not that bad. He did have people to look after him. The village people did love him as when he set out, they all saw him off. He was friends with shanks because that was his nature - to make friends dude. And he inspired to become a pirate BECAUSE OF THEM. That is why he stabbed himself with a knife under his left eye to prove himself to Shanks so that he could join them in their adventures. Garp was trying to make his stronger, yes it was tough but he wasn't as lonely as you claim him to be.

I understand he was lonely, I never denied that but not to a bad degree. He still had people who talked to him and looked after him. That was my point. And no, ace was not the first person he before, he had friends/people who cared for him before that, like shanks or that bar lady. The first person, who was his age that he befriended was ace.

Lets go back: The people who were friends with luffy/loved him:

Makino, Wood Slap, Gyoru (who always supported Luffy lifestyle of becoming a pirate), heck even chicken. As I said, in his village - Foosha Village, which was a small village, he had people who loved him and took care of him. Then he met pirates friends like shanks and his crew who really liked luffy as well.

After Luffy was saved from those pirates by ace and sabo and when ace asked why he didn't tell the pirates about the treasure, he said that he would not have Ace as a friend anymore and that he does not have anyone on the island to rely on since he cannot go back to Foosha Village and he does not trust bandits. Plus he does not wish to be alone.

All of this just strengthens my argument. Yes, I concede that on Foosha Village, Luffy was not alone. He had a variety of friends from local bartenders to the pirate, Shanks (which is more of a paternal relationship than anything, but I digress). Luffy was never alone, having a large group of friends to surround himself with. This made it all the more tragic when he had to leave his beloved hometown. For the first time in his life, Luffy was lonely. He had no one to talk to. There was no bartender ot pirate crews, Luffy was truly alone, a feeling that Luffy was not use to as he had a lot of friends back at home.

Luffy hates the feeling of being alone. He even said that it hurts more than physical pain. That's why Luffy decided to try and befriend Ace again and again. Because he'd rather be abused by him then be alone. So, I don't think you can say that being alone was just one of three reasons why Luffy wanted to be friends with Ace. It was more like Luffy felt alone because he doesn't trust bandits and he couldn't go back to Foosha Village, where all of his friends lived.

Another thing that strengthens my argument is you bringing up Luffy stabbing his own eye. Being called a "child" by Shanks and company really hurt Luffy's ego, so Luffy decided to protect his pride by stabbing himself in the eye. He did this to prove not only to Shanks, but to himself, that he is ready to go out to sea with them. And while it didn't work in the long run, it still showcased how far Luffy is willing to go to protect his pride.

Again, he was only alone on Dawn island and it wasn't for long as ace and sabo became his friend. So to say his loneliness was "bad" is extreme.

This supports my argument even more. Luffy was alone on Dawn Island, and while he eventually befriended Ace and Sabo, that doesn't undermine the countless days of loneliness he had to go through before that event took place.

That was once. Luffy asked for help from Rayleigh as well or did you forget that. You claimed that Luffy might have more pride than Zoro but have no proof to back that up.

The difference is that Zoro lost against Mihawk. Mihawk is Zoro's rival, someone who Zoro strives to beat. To ask for training from someone who is your rival and someone who you want to beat is a swordsman's shame, and Mihawk even said Zoro is throwing his pride away.

On the other hand, Luffy didn't even ask for Rayleigh's help. Rayleigh suggested it. And Rayleigh was more of a mentor to Luffy than a rival so it doesn't hurt Luffy's pride to ask him.

Again, you don't lose pride for asking for help. Luffy does this all the time. It's under specific circumstances, such as Zoro asking Mihawk, that one would lose their pride though asking for help.

If sanji beating him decreases his pride, then so does Ussop beating him. Or are you now the one who says when Luffy pride is damaged and when it is not? Both situations are the same - the only difference is that Sanji matter is MUCH MORE sensitive than the Ussop matter and that is why Luffy didn't choose to fight back.

Sanji nearly knocked out Luffy. Luffy beat Usopp. There is no correlation between the two and it feels like you are grasping at straws at this point. I don't even think I need to elaborate why nearly getting K.O. and defeating someone are on completely opposite sides of the spectrum.

So, in the end, Luffy lost his pride in both events. And just like in both events, Sanji, similar to Ussop, broke down in tears, saying that he wanted to return to the crew but did not want to leave his family to die. I can't believe you see 1 thing like something but not the other, even though they were similar events.

You really like taking out context, don't you? There is a significant difference between Luffy getting beaten by Sanji and Luffy beating Usopp. And Sanji crying doesn't help your argument either. I don;t know what you are trying to prove on that front.

Luffy didn't take Zoro command, HE TOOK HIS ADVICE. What you are not understanding here is that luffy is very softhearted when it comes to his friends/family and will throw away his rules to SAVE THEM.

What YOU are not understanding is that this is not always the case. Luffy is not one to just throw away his pride. And, like I said before, Luffy follows his heart, so if he took Zoro's advice, he felt the same way.

How is it disresp[cting him? It is the truth and it seems you don't like it. That flashback arc showed why he loved ace so much. The Kuma arc showed that he loved his friends, so much that he was willing to do anything for them, just like how he did with ace/sabo when he was young. It was development but his character as a whole didn't change.

It's disrespectful to him because you are disregarding all of the development to his character.

Oh, I am sorry about that. But do you even know why he did that? That was not about pride but his sense of adventure. This is the direct quote from him:

"I DON'T wanna hear where this treasure is!! I don't even wanna hear if there IS a treasure or not!!! I'm dunno anything about it, but... ...everybody set out to sea, risking their lives to search for it!!! If this old man to tell us anything about it here and now, then I'll on refuse to become Pirate King! If we're gonna have a boring adventure like that, then I would rather die!"

Luffy also said that everyone else is risking their lives to search for it, so if Luffy just got told where it is, it would make it feel cheap. He wouldn't allow himself to become Pirate King because doing so without finding it himself would hurt his pride as a pirate.

Again, his crew DOES RESPECT HIM. When Ussop fought him, NO ONE LOST RESPECT. When Sanji fought him, Nami, who was with him, knew that luffy was doing that for his friend. Luffy didn't lose anyone respect in that scene, respect grew for him. Ace used to try and kill Whitebread as well, why didn't whitebread crew lose respect for him? Because they knew his power but also his love for his sones.

For Usopp, Luffy followed Zoro's advice. Luffy didn't accept Usopp back to the crew until he apologized. So we didn't get to see the consequences of allowing Usopp to come back prematurely. As for Sanji, the current arc, Totoland, hasn't concluded and multiple people have predicted that there will be reprecussions so that remains to be seen.

As for Ace trying to kill Whitebeard, the keyword was TRIED. And the dynamic of Whitebeard's crew is vastly different from Luffy's. It's more father son oriented.

That is LITERALLY the same with Luffy. His crew knows that he is strong but sometimes, fighting back in not always the answer.

I don't know what you are trying to say with this.

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@gearsecond659:

Lol, when he went to Dadan, he wasn't lonely for long. Infact, even when he was shunned by Ace and Sabo, he was tagged along with them. Again, he was alone but never for that long. Even in the manga/anime, it was around 3 months after which he, ace and sabo became best friends. But as I said before, it was never that bad as he always followed them around and hung with them.

The eye cutting proves how far he will go for something he believes in. Yes, that was also pride but it also should how compassionate he is. And as I said before, him throwing again his pride for his friends is nothing new. That is his nature.

How is Zoro sacrificing his pride one-time means that Luffy has more pride than him? Zoro did something for his friends and to get stronger. Not to mention, he straight up told Mihawk he was going to beat him and surpass him.

Lol, do you not understand the basics or something? It doesn't matter if sanji beat luffy worse than Ussop, the matter of fact he raised his hand on his captain is already WRONG. That is the same as what Ussop did. You are the one who is deflecting because you see you have been caught out. They are the exact same thing - hitting your captain = directing him.

No difference between Sanji beating luffy and Ussop beating luffy. It seems you can't even see that in both of those events - luffy was beaten by his crew members and thus, disrespected.

Yes, Luffy follows his heart but when it comes to his friend, he is MORE FORGIVING. He has always been like that. After luffy found out Ussop was Sogeking, he immediately wanted Ussop to come back. He was even going to go get him. But it was Zoro who told him that Ussop must apologize first. As I told you before, he has always been like that for people close to him.

No, I am talking truth about the character. He has grown but not enough to say it was ACTUAL character development.

Again, it is also about pride but also his sense of adventure. It is also about the excitement of finding something that you might not know is there but it could be. If I am playing a really good game and my friend tries to tell me the ending of it, I will say that I want to know for myself as well. It is not as much pride but wanting to know/figure out something yourself.

And him having pride for things like that doesn't mean that he won't give up that pride for his friends. The 2 are not even comparable.

Lol, I told you that he was going to accept Ussop as soon as possible. And maybe you forgot, even Sanji apologized to him and told him it was for his family. Luffy even punched Sanji and demanded him to tell the truth. That is when Sanji broke down in tears, saying that he wanted to return to the crew but did not want to leave his family to die.

Multiple people? So, not oda. Got it.

You are not understanding something - Ace was going so far as to KILL whitebread, sanji on injured him. So, what Ace was going is worse. And if you say it was father/son relations, I can say the Luffy/Sanji thing is a brother/brother relationship.

And Sanji didn't hit him for no reason, he hit him for a very desperate reason - to save his family.

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RukelnikovFTW

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@marishtar said:
@gearsecond659 said:
@thebuckaronatr said:

No it is not overrated, just the anime it get usually compared with are. Hunter X Hunter is distinctly better than Dragonball, Naruto, One Piece, Bleach and so on, but that makes it not the best anime ever.

Care to explain why it's better than Naruto and One Piece? Just curious.

Serious question? I could make a case for the One Piece(especially due to outstanding world building and fantastic character introductions) manga(the anime on the other hand...), but Naruto has regardless of manga or anime absolutely nothing on HXH.

Yea, I can somewhat agree with that. Especially after the first timeskip. I was mainly referring to the Zabuza arc, but I realize that that is only one arc.

I sincerely don't get why people like Zabuza's arc so much... to me it was just an intro, Chuunin exam is where the series starts getting good

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Adi_Frost

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@gearsecond659: I understand . But to me , THE FACTS in the series are things that do not have any relation to the series being good or bad . Eg - powers and stuff . They are facts which cannot be disputed but when you criticise a series , there are always arguments that can be brought against it . Thats why i say its not objective . TO ME , something objective is which cannot be disputed , and arguments for the quality of a series are not one of them . Haha
Maybe we can agree to disagree on that one . XD

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@gearsecond659: I understand . But to me , THE FACTS in the series are things that do not have any relation to the series being good or bad . Eg - powers and stuff . They are facts which cannot be disputed but when you criticise a series , there are always arguments that can be brought against it . Thats why i say its not objective . TO ME , something objective is which cannot be disputed , and arguments for the quality of a series are not one of them . Haha

Maybe we can agree to disagree on that one . XD

Agree to disagree.

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@gearsecond659:

Lol, when he went to Dadan, he wasn't lonely for long. Infact, even when he was shunned by Ace and Sabo, he was tagged along with them. Again, he was alone but never for that long. Even in the manga/anime, it was around 3 months after which he, ace and sabo became best friends. But as I said before, it was never that bad as he always followed them around and hung with them.

3 months is a long time. Maybe his loneliness wasn't as bad as Sanji's, I'm not saying the contrary, but I think you are downplaying this. That is an unimaginably long time to feel lonely for, so my argument still stands.

The eye cutting proves how far he will go for something he believes in. Yes, that was also pride but it also should how compassionate he is. And as I said before, him throwing again his pride for his friends is nothing new. That is his nature.

Compassion? Seriously lmfao. You think Luffy stabbing his own eye was out of compassion. One one was asking him to do that. Shanks' life wasn't in danger. He just did it to assert his pride.

How is Zoro sacrificing his pride one-time means that Luffy has more pride than him? Zoro did something for his friends and to get stronger. Not to mention, he straight up told Mihawk he was going to beat him and surpass him.

Did you even read my post? Zoro claiming he is going to beat Mihawk makes him begging Mihawk to train him all the more embarrassing. Mihawk pointed this out. Asking your rival for help is a swordmans' shame. Luffy didn't have this rivalry with Rayleigh, and again, Rayleigh was Luffy's mentor.

Loading Video...

Lol, do you not understand the basics or something? It doesn't matter if sanji beat luffy worse than Ussop, the matter of fact he raised his hand on his captain is already WRONG. That is the same as what Ussop did. You are the one who is deflecting because you see you have been caught out. They are the exact same thing - hitting your captain = directing him.

*face palms*

Sanji BEAT Luffy. Luffy BEAT Usopp. Luffy beating Usopp doesn't make him lose his pride. Rereading the chapter, Sanji actually briefly knocked out Luffy. Usopp did nothing of the sort.

Clearly, you are not understanding this, so, before you write your next post, watch the video below. This will clarify everything you are misunderstanding.

Loading Video...

No difference between Sanji beating luffy and Ussop beating luffy. It seems you can't even see that in both of those events - luffy was beaten by his crew members and thus, disrespected.

Usopp didn't beat Luffy. What are you not understanding. And even if you want to say that Usopp's attacks were disrespectful, it was a duel. It didn't ruin Luffy's pride as a captain to get tagged by Usopp because it was a formal duel. If LUffy had lost, it would be a different story, but he didn't.

For Sanji, it wasn't a formal duel. Sanji went out of line and attacked Luffy to the point of unconsciousness. So stop trying to generalize everything because you are disregarding the context in the process.

Yes, Luffy follows his heart but when it comes to his friend, he is MORE FORGIVING. He has always been like that. After luffy found out Ussop was Sogeking, he immediately wanted Ussop to come back. He was even going to go get him. But it was Zoro who told him that Ussop must apologize first. As I told you before, he has always been like that for people close to him.

And I have also told you a million times that Luffy follows his friggin heart. If Luffy followed Zoro's advice, that means he shared the same opinion as Zoro.

No, I am talking truth about the character. He has grown but not enough to say it was ACTUAL character development.

First of all, I don't think you know what character development is. Character development isn't when a character goes from being one way to turning the complete opposite like Gon. That's a character arc. Character development is essentially how developed a character is, taking into account personality, flaws, fears, goals, religion, backstory, etc.

Again, it is also about pride but also his sense of adventure. It is also about the excitement of finding something that you might not know is there but it could be. If I am playing a really good game and my friend tries to tell me the ending of it, I will say that I want to know for myself as well. It is not as much pride but wanting to know/figure out something yourself.

It's mostly about pride. Being a pirate is one of the most prideful things one can be in the One Piece world, so to be King of the Pirates, you would need a lot of pride, at least in Luffy's eyes. He can't be the Pirate King if his pride is ruined, which would be the case if Rayleigh told him where the One Piece was located.

And him having pride for things like that doesn't mean that he won't give up that pride for his friends. The 2 are not even comparable.

Except I just showed you a case where he wasn't willing to give up his pride as captain, soooo...

Lol, I told you that he was going to accept Ussop as soon as possible. And maybe you forgot, even Sanji apologized to him and told him it was for his family. Luffy even punched Sanji and demanded him to tell the truth. That is when Sanji broke down in tears, saying that he wanted to return to the crew but did not want to leave his family to die.

And again, I told you that Luffy took Zoro's advice, and since Luffy follows his heart, he was of the same mindset in regards to Usopp. And Sanji apologizing has nothing to do with the situation. The fact of the matter is that Sanji attacked Luffy to the point that he was knocked out.

Multiple people? So, not oda. Got it.

Oda isn't exactly supporting your argument either bud so don't be a hypocrite. As for the multiple people, I am referring to theorist that have been perceived as credible by the One Piece community, such as Joy Boy, and there is a significant amount of evidence in my favor if you were to actually watch the video.

You are not understanding something - Ace was going so far as to KILL whitebread, sanji on injured him. So, what Ace was going is worse. And if you say it was father/son relations, I can say the Luffy/Sanji thing is a brother/brother relationship.

You must be tripping if you think Ace was a legitimate threat to Whitebeard. First of all, the montage of Ace trying to kill Whitebeard was played for laughs, highlighting how little of a threat he was to Whitebeard. Second of all, the operative phrase here is TRIED. Ace never actually hurted Whitebeard. Sanji HURTed Luffy.

And Sanji didn't hit him for no reason, he hit him for a very desperate reason - to save his family.

Usopp hit Luffy to protect his pride. Your point?

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TheOriginalOne

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#97  Edited By TheOriginalOne

@gearsecond659: No, 3 months is not that long. And he wasn't alone/by himself for that time, he followed ace and sabo. Even if they found him as a nuisance, he was still there. I am not saying that was lonely but not as bad as you are making it out to seem.

Compassion for becoming a pirate and to prove himself to shanks. Asset his pride? He was a small kid. When ace spat on him, why didn't he exert his pride there? When Dadan didn't give him proper food, why didn't he exert his pride there? He was too young for that. It was more about proving yourself to shanks.

Dude, I did read what you said. And I also said he threw away that pride for his friends. Now, if a man like Zoro can do that, then why won't luffy who was already more forgiving and loving, won't do it. As I have been saying before, Luffy will always throw his pride away when his friends are in danger/in trouble.

I didn't even deny Zoro threw away his pride but for what? His friends. Luffy did the same thing for Sanji. The difference between the 2 instances is that for Luffy, it is not about pride but for Zoro it was.

Lol, this is now you assuming what hurt his pride and what didn't. His fight with Ussop, he did fight back but Ussop still raised his hand on his captain. In the Sanji fight, he didn't fight back but Sanji still hurt him. And do you know why he hit Ussop? As you said, he hit Ussop because Ussop challenged him and he respected that. In the sanji fight, Sanji just attacked him from nowhere. Why would he hurt a dear friend for nothing? LUFFY IS NOT LIKE THAT.

And Luffy wsn' knocked out, he was knocked down. Luffy has amazing pain tolerance and has taken worse before and not been knocked out. if he was serious knocked out, he wouldn't have been able to get back up on his feet and yelled to Sanji that he knew that Sanji never meant what he said. Luffy declared that he would wait for Sanji and would gladly starve to death if he does not return. Luffy went on saying that he would not eat any food unless it is made by Sanji's hand.

You are generalizing it as well. You want it to hurt his "pride" so you keep saying it did. When even luffy didn't feel it hurt his pride. He knew something was wrong with his brother and took that punishment quietly.

Lol, Luffy follows his heart when it comes to doing the right thing. As I told you before, he was going to accept Ussop as soon as possible but still took Zoro advice about waiting until Ussop apologizes. He didn't follow his heart there, he followed his friends advice.

I know what character development is. Calm down. Character development also means growth and changes in a character. Luffy hasn't had many of these changed and it has been 20 years of one piece. What development has he had?

It is not mainly about pride but adventure. If Oda revealed to us that One Piece actually exists, which no one does, then it will take away from the excitement of the story. That is what Oda confirmed there. I am not saying it isn't at all about pride as well but not as much as you think it is.

Show me again please? Please, go ahead. Or are you talking about the Rayleigh moment again wich you keep assuming is about pride when it is not?

How are you equating the 2 here? Luffy didn't follow his heart when he fought Ussop? He followed his heart when he saved Ace, sure. And even after he beat Ussop, he wanted to bring him back but why didn't he? He didn't follow his heart there, he followed logic. When he wanted to bring Ussop back after the cp 9 arc, he didn't immediately bring ussop back, he waited because of advice.

Again, getting beaten is not the problem, getting hit is. It doesn't matter how far Sanji took it, he hit him and that was wrong. That is what Ussop did as well. To the point where luffy was injured as well. Both instances, his pride was hurt.

I am not the one making theories here, you are. So why would I need Oda approval when I am not the one doing that? And credible by who? Fans like you? Lol, that is not proof, that is an opinion. Significant evidence? Maybe you mean you have your OPINION of that evidence. Just like I would have mine.

And "perceived"? Lol, no wonder you have no proof.

Ussop hit him for pride, Sanji hit him for his family. In both cases, Luffy was hurt. Why can't you see this? In both cases, his pride was hurt. And in both cases, he easily forgave his friends.

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#98  Edited By BlackLegRaph

@adi_frost said:

@gearsecond659: well you see , the problem is the facts that you are talking about are also subjective. They are not really facts . Think about it . Facts are absolute , you can't go against them . The sun rises from the east , Humans body is 70% water , these are facts . They are proven but in literature and fiction , nothing is factual . The same facts that a person would say are also simply subjective points . I hope you see what I am talking about .

And to why I do not like one piece . Hmm . Slow Pacing ( this was more of a problem in the beginning yet beginning is my fav part out of all of one piece) , little to no character development , little to no story progression , the story is dragged too much -there are overarching more important plot yet it's never addressed -it gets addressed once in a life time or something lol - and some other problems.

I don't want to derail from the thread . This is not a one piece thread so back to the topic .

When it comes to facts in manga , all you can say is one manga has sold more than other . But as we know , that doesn't account to anything either . Over all the years (4 years haha, not much) I have watched anime , I have realized that there are NO facts . Critical thinking of an anime is also 100% subjective . Eg would be something critically acclaimed by some to be bad might me the exact same thing that is critically acclaimed by some to be good . There is not really any end point to it . Arguments are all about opinion. You can provide scans to help your argument which would make someone's argument stronger than others but that would still be his opinion because that's his interpretation. See , it's complicated and contradictory to some degree .

All I want to say is , No , there are no facts in determining a better form. art/manga. The facts are also subjective in a topic like that . (Remember , I am strictly talking about determining the quality of a series . there are things that are facts like powers, how they work , etc , but when determining which series is better , it's all subjective) .

I don't want to cut in on you guy's discussion, but your response doesn't make much sense in context. HxH (manga) has even slower pacing than One Piece. It hardly has an overarching story to say there is any story progression to begin with. There's certainly no big picture end goal specified. The longest arc is practically just a segue with only 1 or 2 big consequences to the story. Some characters pretty much disappear after the start, so it's hard to speak of character development at all.

If those are your legit reasons for not liking One Piece, then you shouldn't like HxH at all.

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@adi_frost said:

@gearsecond659: well you see , the problem is the facts that you are talking about are also subjective. They are not really facts . Think about it . Facts are absolute , you can't go against them . The sun rises from the east , Humans body is 70% water , these are facts . They are proven but in literature and fiction , nothing is factual . The same facts that a person would say are also simply subjective points . I hope you see what I am talking about .

And to why I do not like one piece . Hmm . Slow Pacing ( this was more of a problem in the beginning yet beginning is my fav part out of all of one piece) , little to no character development , little to no story progression , the story is dragged too much -there are overarching more important plot yet it's never addressed -it gets addressed once in a life time or something lol - and some other problems.

I don't want to derail from the thread . This is not a one piece thread so back to the topic .

When it comes to facts in manga , all you can say is one manga has sold more than other . But as we know , that doesn't account to anything either . Over all the years (4 years haha, not much) I have watched anime , I have realized that there are NO facts . Critical thinking of an anime is also 100% subjective . Eg would be something critically acclaimed by some to be bad might me the exact same thing that is critically acclaimed by some to be good . There is not really any end point to it . Arguments are all about opinion. You can provide scans to help your argument which would make someone's argument stronger than others but that would still be his opinion because that's his interpretation. See , it's complicated and contradictory to some degree .

All I want to say is , No , there are no facts in determining a better form. art/manga. The facts are also subjective in a topic like that . (Remember , I am strictly talking about determining the quality of a series . there are things that are facts like powers, how they work , etc , but when determining which series is better , it's all subjective) .

I don't want to cut in on you guy's discussion, but your response doesn't make much sense in context. HxH (manga) has even slower pacing than One Piece. It hardly has an overarching story to say there is any story progression to begin with. There's certainly no big picture end goal specified. The longest arc is practically just a segue with only 1 or 2 big consequences to the story. Some characters pretty much disappear after the start, so it's hard to speak of character development at all.

If those are your legit reasons for not liking One Piece, then you shouldn't like HxH at all.

You quoted the wrong person. I didn't say this. I disagreed with this.