Is Deathstroke a bullet timer?

@elijah_c_washington@blackestnight93

Of course he is:

Gallery

• New Teen Titans 62
• Deathstroke the terminator annual 1
• Outsiders 29

Scans taken from Elijah C Washington (our old CaV that never finished)

Of course.

how was i gone for 40 minutes what

Anyway, his coolest superpower has always been night vision.

yes

Well yeah. he See's faster :p

This is funny considering that on Slade's first appearance, the power that's mentioned the most are his enhanced reflexes.

Yes.

He doesn't have a single definitive, blatant bullet timing feat.

Batman has one. Captain America has two. Daredevil has none. Spider-Man has a handful but not a bunch. I think Iron Fist has one.

Bullet timing is taken for granted when it's a popular character, but when it's CW Green Arrow we're talking about then nooooo, suddenly we're a hyper-critical lot who need to examine every frame with a magnifying glass and if we determine that there's nothing saying the freaking wind didn't maybe knock the bullets off course, we can't assume that's not what happened.

I don't doubt he is but the vast majority of "bullet timing" feats used in these threads are at best unclear and far more likely aim dodging.

@jashro44: Oh right. I forgot about the one brand new feat that was so vague it required the author to explain. Unfortunately Slade has never moved that fast before. Kirkham described picturing Slade swinging his sword "like an anime" all blurring and imperceptible and cutting down everything in his path, bullets and guns included, like some overwhelming force.

That's not Slade's level. That's more Gorgon, Midnighter, the stupidly OP pseudo-"street" level killers. I picture that scan like a Devil May Cry fight scene, which just blatantly isn't Slade. Slade is a tactical machine with acrobatics and superhuman strength. That's his standard character type. Not an OP anime speedster.

The dude asking the question managed to pick up on it. Calling it vague doesn't actually make the feat any less impressive.

@jashro44: What's important is that it's an outlier and portrays Slade in a way that he's never been portrayed before.

Slade is probably smart enough to beat most stupidly OP anime speedster types, so I don't understand why he also needs to be one as well. I don't understand why being superhumanly tactical isn't enough for most people and we have to try and construe all of our characters into OP bullet timers. The type of feat in that scan isn't even badass; it's a lazy way to make a character look badass. But the tasteful, tactical, experienced vibe that writers like Wolfman were able to give Slade was infinitely more badass than stupidly OP feats that any lazy writer can pen out.

Again, what's happening in that scan is not the type of character Deathstroke is. Slade is an old man and a tactical machine with acrobatics and superhuman strength. Not an anime character. Slade is actually EXTREMELY western.

@jashro44@nickzambuto: I am not disputing whether Slade is a bullet timer or not, but it is entirely possible to cut bullets in half without actually reacting to them after they are fired. All it takes is a little bit of complex calculation and speed, both of which aren't above his paygrade

In some cases yes. I kind of feel like when your slicing 10+ bullets out of the air simultaneously its just raw speed.

lol

@nickzambuto:

Daredevil has none.

Gallery

Here we see that Matt moves after the bullet has already been fired.

Of course he is.

Daily reminder that scans where the character is sprayed at with bullets and hops away aren't really enough to classify them as bullet timers, that's just standard Hollywood shooting

You need to show the character having a bullet fired at him, then moving away

@nickzambuto: Matt has bullet timing feats.

Considering people like Cassandra Cain have admitted inferiority to his speed, I'd say so.

@ithemanwithoutfeari: You're right. I think he has at least one, possibly two, but I can not fully remember.

@brucerogers: Agreed. And wouldn't you agree that what you described, the calculating, skillful, precise movement over raw superhuman speed, is about 1000x more badass and fitting for the character than the anime sh1t Deathstroke is pulling in that scan? So why does he need to be both? He's already better than most bullet timers and can mimic bullet timing through acrobatics and his fast paced brain (AKA aim dodging). Why isn't that enough? Who do Deathstroke fans need him to be both, a grizzled, veteran, tactical machine, and also a generic anime speedster?

@lubub55: Dude, that scan literally describes Matt using his radar sense to anticipate the trajectory of the bullet. He swats bullets out of the air with an inhuman sense of timing and precision, thanks to his radar sense. Not inexplicable supersonic speed.

And that's the way I like it. I'm a Daredevil fan, I'm actually one of the people who have read the issue where those famous scans originate from, so you can't catch me with missing context. Are you also a Daredevil fan? If so, why would you want to sacrifice insane skill just to give Daredevil inexplicable levels of speed? Using his radar sense to predict the bullet trajectory, the time it would take to reach him, the time it will take for the shooter's fingers to fully press the trigger, and swinging his billy club all with the perfect precision, to actually SIMULATE superhuman speed and scare the crap out of criminals, is 1000x more badass than just... a human being magically moving his arm at the speed of sound.

@don_higashikata: Yes, absolutely. My man.

@nickzambuto:

Dude, that scan literally describes Matt using his radar sense to anticipate the trajectory of the bullet. He swats bullets out of the air with an inhuman sense of timing and precision, thanks to his radar sends. Not inexplicable supersonic speed.

He says that he is able to anticipate the bullets trajectory accurately, and he then intercepts it using his speed.

I've cut out everything that isn't relevant. In the top scan we see a muzzle flash which indicates the gun has fired, and in that same panel Matt's arm is behind him. In the next he's deflected the shot. You can argue that it's inconsistent, but this specific feat is genuine bullet timing. What he meant was that his Radar Sense helped him predict the bullet, and without it he wouldn't have been able to deflect it because even though his speed wasn't good enough, his coordination wouldn't be.

@nickzambuto: I agree.

@lubub55 said:

@nickzambuto:

Dude, that scan literally describes Matt using his radar sense to anticipate the trajectory of the bullet. He swats bullets out of the air with an inhuman sense of timing and precision, thanks to his radar sends. Not inexplicable supersonic speed.

He says that he is able to anticipate the bullets trajectory accurately, and he then intercepts it using his speed.

I've cut out everything that isn't relevant. In the top scan we see a muzzle flash which indicates the gun has fired, and in that same panel Matt's arm is behind him. In the next he's deflected the shot. You can argue that it's inconsistent, but this specific feat is genuine bullet timing. What he meant was that his Radar Sense helped him predict the bullet, and without it he wouldn't have been able to deflect it because even though his speed wasn't good enough, his coordination wouldn't be.

But it's not superhuman speed. The other guy is, what, 8 meters away? Something like that? Let's say the bullet is going at 300 m/s. It'll get to DD in about 0.026 seconds. He needs to swing his club about half a meter to hit the bullet as it gets to him. Assuming he can swing slightly faster than MLB players at about 70mph, that means he can get the bat to that point in 0.0159 seconds. More than fast enough, without being superhuman. What's superhuman about the feat is his hearing letting him know the gun has been fired, his very above average (but still humanly possible) reflexes, and his precision. He's not bullet timing here, as I can guarantee you that if you had three guys fire on DD he'd be owned, because he can't just move at superhuman speeds like actual bullet timers like Spider-Man could.

@don_higashikata: Why does it matter how many people were shooting at him? He reacted to a bullet after it was fired, so he's a bullet timer. It's as simple and indisputable as that.

Alright for all those who think Daredevil cannot react to bullets after they are fired, I raise them these scans. All from the 90s

Gallery

@don_higashikata: @lubub55: Hmm, you both make persuasive arguments. I think I've been persuaded to both of your sides, in that he technically moved after the gun was fired, so it's psuedo-bullet timing, but it doesn't really quite qualify due to Daredevil's total preparedness, if you know what I mean. He was preparing his arm on the backswing when the gun was fired, meaning he knew exactly when he was going to swing, it wasn't a pure reaction, but a combination of preparedness, reaction, and prediction. Ironically deflecting bullets is usually more impressive than dodging, but in this context, if Daredevil was able to move his entire body and dodge the bullet, I'd be more inclined to buy he is a bullet timer. But since all he did was swing his club, a minute movement in comparison, I just don't think it counts.

Don't get me wrong. It's one of the greatest feats a peak human has ever performed. With this level of skill, Daredevil could beat the crap out of genuine bullet timers. So he really doesn't NEED to be a bullet timer.

I'd classify that feat as "pseudo-bullet timing." It's technically moving after the gun was fired, but due to the circumstances it doesn't quite qualify to reach the lowest levels of bullet timing.

@brucerogers: Ahh, wow. In all my time asking for Daredevil bullet timing feats, I've never seen the first, fourth, or fifth scans.

Those three are clear cut bullet timing. And showcase the difference between real bullet timing and "bullet timing only by interpretation." What I mean is, the narration actually states Matt is tracking the bullets in midair and then dodging them. The author had a clear intent when writing that, he imagines this character as being superhumanly fast. Other supposed bullet timing feats, like most of Deathstroke's, do not have such a clear cut description that he is a bullet timer.

(Although the second scan you posted specifies that Matt is using his radar sense to anticipate attacks before they come, and even though the art breaks the continuity, the writer was clearly going for a "superhuman skill" angle and not a "superhuman speed" angle. Honestly if you want to construe that as bullet timing, it would be at the cost of portraying Matt as a goof who literally tried to sense the attack before it came and failed utterly and was caught by surprise. As a Daredevil fan, personally, I wouldn't want Matt to be portrayed like that. And the third scan is just more of the same, bullet fired in one panel then dodged or deflected in the next, but without seeing what the hero is doing while the bullet is fired)

I might be able to buy that Daredevil is a bullet timer, but only under a few writers. Because for as many genuine bullet timing feats as you can post (like, three or four) I can post the same number of instances of Matt being shot (like, three or four). With his radar sense, he's as close to a bullet timer as a normal human can possibly be. But he's still limited too much by human limitations to quite bridge the gap. He's a quasi-superhuman. Let's call him a pseudo-bullet timer. He's about as close as he can possibly be, he's right at that bridge... he just doesn't cross it.

@nickzambuto: Hehe, thanks. I got them after reading up on his old stories. Lemme know if you want the name of the issues. He has had more instances of dodging bullets after they are fired, but these are the ones coming up in my head for now.

@brucerogers said:

Alright for all those who think Daredevil cannot react to bullets after they are fired, I raise them these scans. All from the 90s

Gallery

One more

Nice and big. Daredevil Volume 1 issue 219. Believe this was in the 80s

@comicace3: Thanks!. Yeah I forgot about that lol

No problem. It's my absolute favorite.

@nickzambuto: Yeah dude, pretty much. People are way too quick to call bullet timing on what is essentially artists saving space by having characters move at the same time someone is drawn firing a gun lol

She really did ? Damn ...

@brucerogers: @comicace3: I'm going to save the "Is Deathstroke a bullet timer" thread for reference on Daredevil being a bullet timer, lol

@nickzambuto: Lel

@nickzambuto: Lol sure.

Except in the scans I showed, the bullet being fired and the reaction took place on different panels, making it bullet timing.

1. Alright, I'll make a Batman vs Big Boss thread, that should be a good fight.
2. Damn, everyone is talking about whether or not Deathstroke is a bullet timer. So that my battle thread isn't derailed, I'll make a thread specifically to discuss that.
3. Okay, so now everyone is discussing Daredevil's speed. Great.

I feel like I should make a thread on whether Daredevil is a bullet timer or not, but we all know that the thread will quickly turn into something else.

@ithemanwithoutfeari: Yea, Batgirl #64.

@renny: What's your point?