Is Canon Luke Skywalker a Mary Sue for being equal to prime Vader at only 23?

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nassergrant19

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Poll Is Canon Luke Skywalker a Mary Sue for being equal to prime Vader at only 23? (70 votes)

Yes definitely 37%
Nah 66%

I’ve heard a minority of users(1-2 tbh) say Luke is a Mary Sue because he’s canonically equal to Prime Vader and scales above him in the Mandalorian.

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I’ve seen them say he is because he had little training in comparison to his prequel counterparts(99% who didn’t reach Vader level or beyond).

I’ve also heard that him matching his father and turning him to the light is the ultimate Mary Sue moment.

So what do y’all think? Is Canon Luke a Mary Sue?

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hellothere5432

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#2  Edited By hellothere5432  Online

No. Luke received private training from the best which as seen with characters like Mace, Dooku and Maul greatly increases power levels. Similar to how private tutoring usually increases people's knowledge in real life. Luke also has an in universe reasoning for his power(his insane potential) and unlike Mary Sue's, he didn't always succeed as seen in ESB. Luke also fought in a war which tends to increase power levels drastically as seen with Anakin, Obi Wan, etc.

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JediSympathiz3r

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No. Being a Mary Sue isn’t just about unexplainable power levels

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FreeFaceMask

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Luke is more of a "Prodigy" than a Mary Sue.

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McFlicky

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You all use that term way too flippantly

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Greysentinel365

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#6  Edited By Greysentinel365

It's easier to spin it in canon as Vader is some RotS Sids + titan while in Legends he's a sub the TPM trio by a fair amount. Which makes it much more believable.

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AlphaQ

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No, a Mary Sue isn’t just an OP character, it’s one that has no flaws and excels at everything. Luke is naive in A New Hope, rash in Empire Strikes Back, conflicted in Return of the Jedi and broken in The Last Jedi - none of these are possible for a Mary Sue.

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frozen

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#8 frozen  Moderator

@alphaq said:

No, a Mary Sue isn’t just an OP character, it’s one that has no flaws and excels at everything. Luke is naive in A New Hope, rash in Empire Strikes Back, conflicted in Return of the Jedi and broken in The Last Jedi - none of these are possible for a Mary Sue.

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@frozen said:
@alphaq said:

No, a Mary Sue isn’t just an OP character, it’s one that has no flaws and excels at everything. Luke is naive in A New Hope, rash in Empire Strikes Back, conflicted in Return of the Jedi and broken in The Last Jedi - none of these are possible for a Mary Sue.

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Void_Reborn

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Luke is not a 'Mary Sue' like Rey for example just because of the confusing and illogical power boost he got moving towards ROTJ. There are many other things that come together to make a Mary Sue.

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SheevSmacker

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@frozen said:
@alphaq said:

No, a Mary Sue isn’t just an OP character, it’s one that has no flaws and excels at everything. Luke is naive in A New Hope, rash in Empire Strikes Back, conflicted in Return of the Jedi and broken in The Last Jedi - none of these are possible for a Mary Sue.

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achillesspawn

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Being a Mary Sue needs a lot more than being powerful. There are multiple videos explaining why Luke isn't a Mary Sue, and just watching ESB it becomes clear.

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EmmaFrostXmen

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@frozen: rey wasn’t perfect and struggled with similar things to luke. she was desperate for a father figure, in denial about her parents, she has struggled and lost multiple times, and she struggled with the dark side. so you admitting unexplained power levels aren’t what makes someone a mary sue makes rey factually not a mary sue as that is the only characteristic she has that is reminiscent of one.

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frozen

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#14 frozen  Moderator

@frozen: rey wasn’t perfect and struggled with similar things to luke. she was desperate for a father figure, in denial about her parents, she has struggled and lost multiple times, and she struggled with the dark side. so you admitting unexplained power levels aren’t what makes someone a mary sue makes rey factually not a mary sue as that is the only characteristic she has that is reminiscent of one.

Rey was good at everything. She struggled a little with Snoke's guards, but that was a mere 1 week after TFA. In that same movie, she is able to lift large rocks. Keep in mind, this is all 1 week after learning she had the force.. compare that to Luke in ESB, who struggled with lifting an X-Wing despite having 3 years of training.

Rey's flirtation with the dark side never had consequences. She flirts with it a little and then overcomes it. Luke on the other hand, nearly kills his own father and is close to becoming Emperor's apprentice.

Keep in mind, the below happens all in 1 week. Not a month, or a year, but a week:

  • Is a perfect pilot
  • Beats a Skywalker in a saber duel
  • Redeems and inspires a jaded Luke Skywalker
  • Kills elite guards who are trained to protect Snoke
  • Lifts huge rocks

Luke in ESB is going from loss to loss:

  • Gets KO'd by a wampa and needs rescue
  • Struggles to follow Yoda's teachings and lift the X Wing
  • Fails to save his friend Han
  • Badly beaten by Vader and loses his hand
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EmmaFrostXmen

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@frozen: rey studied the inside of a ship all her life and used a melee weapon all of her life. that amounts to something. if you know the inner workings then you know the basic mechanics. she also knew what parts were considered valuable.

you seem to be ignoring the fact that she was fodder to both snoke and palpatine without help and kylo was also beating her which makes her factually not a mary sue. she is on screen struggling.

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frozen

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#16  Edited By frozen  Moderator
@emmafrostxmen said:

@frozen: rey studied the inside of a ship all her life and used a melee weapon all of her life. that amounts to something. if you know the inner workings then you know the basic mechanics. she also knew what parts were considered valuable.

you seem to be ignoring the fact that she was fodder to both snoke and palpatine without help and kylo was also beating her which makes her factually not a mary sue. she is on screen struggling.

Using a melee weapon can only take you so far. She was untrained in the force, so standing a chance against someone like Kylo was nonsense. Beating Kylo is something that should be saved for the 3rd movie, not the first.

Palpatine wasn't even able to kill her. The novelization of TROS also describes that she was able to eventually force Kylo into having to defend himself because each of her strikes got progressively stronger.

If struggling is the metric for not being a mary sue, then Luke by definition can't be a mary sue given that we see him struggle many times. From training with Yoda to losing to Vader in ESB. Even against Vader in ROTJ, he is struggling to block some of Vader's strikes and push them back because he has visible strain on his face.

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EmmaFrostXmen

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#17  Edited By EmmaFrostXmen

@frozen: beating weakened, hurt, emotionally vulnerable kylo and still losing the majority of the fight isn’t an impressive feat. i swear if someone like maul was in the same state everyone (not directed at you) would hype up his disadvantages to make him look better, but in this case theyre ignored to make rey look like a mary sue.

the novel isn’t really relevant because we saw her struggling on screen. also as you’ve admitted unexplained power isn’t a mary sue specific trait. she as a person struggled a lot, and this is factual. don’t go against what you literally just said.

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frozen

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#18 frozen  Moderator

@frozen: beating weakened, hurt, emotionally vulnerable kylo and still losing the majority of the fight isn’t an impressive feat. i swear if someone like maul was in the same state everyone (not directed at you) would hype up his disadvantages, but in this case theyre ignored to make rey look like a mary sue.

the novel isn’t really relevant because we saw her struggling on screen. also as you’ve admitted unexplained power isn’t a mary sue specific trait. she as a person struggled a lot, and this is factual. don’t go against what you literally just said.

I'm not going against what I said, I'm just using your reasoning against you.

You said Luke was a mary sue because he beat Vader, but that Rey isn't a mary sue because she struggled. So if that's the metric you go by, then Luke can't be a mary she because there are moments in ROTJ where he struggles against Vader.

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PyroFN

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No. Luke received private training from the best which as seen with characters like Mace, Dooku and Maul greatly increases power levels. Similar to how private tutoring usually increases people's knowledge in real life. Luke also has an in universe reasoning for his power(his insane potential) and unlike Mary Sue's, he didn't always succeed as seen in ESB. Luke also fought in a war which tends to increase power levels drastically as seen with Anakin, Obi Wan, etc.

Except Luke interrupted that training. There is no telling how far Luke got into the training. (Unless someone has a canon timeline of the events of “The Empire Strikes Back”)

And by that logic, Vader should also still grow drastically at the same rate.

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frozen

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#20 frozen  Moderator

@pyrofn said:
@hellothere5432 said:

No. Luke received private training from the best which as seen with characters like Mace, Dooku and Maul greatly increases power levels. Similar to how private tutoring usually increases people's knowledge in real life. Luke also has an in universe reasoning for his power(his insane potential) and unlike Mary Sue's, he didn't always succeed as seen in ESB. Luke also fought in a war which tends to increase power levels drastically as seen with Anakin, Obi Wan, etc.

Except Luke interrupted that training. There is no telling how far Luke got into the training. (Unless someone has a canon timeline of the events of “The Empire Strikes Back”)

And by that logic, Vader should also still grow drastically at the same rate.

Yes there is. The current SW comics are set inbetween ESB and ROTJ.

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PyroFN

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#21  Edited By PyroFN
@alphaq said:

No, a Mary Sue isn’t just an OP character, it’s one that has no flaws and excels at everything. Luke is naive in A New Hope, rash in Empire Strikes Back, conflicted in Return of the Jedi and broken in The Last Jedi - none of these are possible for a Mary Sue.

Close. A Mary Sue can have flaws. It’s just about how those flaws factor into the story. If the flaws don’t be an obstacle to the character, until the plot demands.

If the character is an absolute bastard and rude to everyone, yet they are beloved, they are a Mary Sue. It entirely depends on how the story flows with them. Are they a part of the narrative, or the only tangible thing in it?

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PyroFN

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@frozen said:
@pyrofn said:
@hellothere5432 said:

No. Luke received private training from the best which as seen with characters like Mace, Dooku and Maul greatly increases power levels. Similar to how private tutoring usually increases people's knowledge in real life. Luke also has an in universe reasoning for his power(his insane potential) and unlike Mary Sue's, he didn't always succeed as seen in ESB. Luke also fought in a war which tends to increase power levels drastically as seen with Anakin, Obi Wan, etc.

Except Luke interrupted that training. There is no telling how far Luke got into the training. (Unless someone has a canon timeline of the events of “The Empire Strikes Back”)

And by that logic, Vader should also still grow drastically at the same rate.

Yes there is. The current SW comics are set inbetween ESB and ROTJ.

I meant the amount of time Luke spent training with Yoda specifically, which was a key point they used as reasoning for Luke’s sudden power increase.

I was merely pointing out the problem in that logic.

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CatMan5

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#23  Edited By CatMan5

Well...kind of? In that regard he is, but not as a whole no

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nassergrant19

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@pyrofn: Hey what’s good? It’s cool to see you here. Didn’t know you were into Star Wars? Do you want me to tag you threads?

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EmmaFrostXmen

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@frozen said:
@emmafrostxmen said:

@frozen: beating weakened, hurt, emotionally vulnerable kylo and still losing the majority of the fight isn’t an impressive feat. i swear if someone like maul was in the same state everyone (not directed at you) would hype up his disadvantages, but in this case theyre ignored to make rey look like a mary sue.

the novel isn’t really relevant because we saw her struggling on screen. also as you’ve admitted unexplained power isn’t a mary sue specific trait. she as a person struggled a lot, and this is factual. don’t go against what you literally just said.

I'm not going against what I said, I'm just using your reasoning against you.

You said Luke was a mary sue because he beat Vader, but that Rey isn't a mary sue because she struggled. So if that's the metric you go by, then Luke can't be a mary she because there are moments in ROTJ where he struggles against Vader.

na what i said was if rey is a mary sue then luke is too and vice versa. if rey isn't a mary sue then luke isn't in the same way. both are characters that struggle but have unrealistic power levels for their experience level. you agreed above that characters with unrealistic power levels aren't mary sue's inherently and i know you know rey has struggled. unrealistic power level =/= mary sue.

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frozen

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#26 frozen  Moderator

@emmafrostxmen: The difference is that Rey learns things at an unrealistically fast rate. Luke may be pushing it with 4 years, but TFA and TLJ are set 1 week apart. Compare that to ANH and ESB where there is a 3 year gap.

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EmmaFrostXmen

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@frozen said:

@emmafrostxmen: The difference is that Rey learns things at an unrealistically fast rate. Luke may be pushing it with 4 years, but TFA and TLJ are set 1 week apart. Compare that to ANH and ESB where there is a 3 year gap.

the jedi mind trick was PIS, but that was the only unrealistic aspect. the lightsaber was explained so it is canonical, and she studied a ship her whole life so a force sensitive flying well isn't that unrealistic. she has struggled and she is far from perfect so she isn't a mary sue, that is how it works. she is brash, reckless, struggles with the dark side, can't control her powers, etc...

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nassergrant19

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@emmafrostxmen: Hey Emmafrostxmen, I know things sorta got hectic yesterday, we good?

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#29  Edited By EmmaFrostXmen

@emmafrostxmen: Hey Emmafrostxmen, I know things sorta got hectic yesterday, we good?

yea were fine bro, i just asked u to stop tagging me yesterday because we keeps repeating the same points in every thread and it gets tiresome for us both so theres no point.

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nassergrant19

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@nassergrant19 said:

@emmafrostxmen: Hey Emmafrostxmen, I know things sorta got hectic yesterday, we good?

yea were fine bro, i just asked u to stop tagging me yesterday because we keeps repeating the same points in every thread and it gets tiresome for us both so theres no point.

Oh ok no problem I perfectly understand. Anyways glad to see you back on SW threads.

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EmmaFrostXmen

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PyroFN

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@pyrofn: Hey what’s good? It’s cool to see you here. Didn’t know you were into Star Wars? Do you want me to tag you threads?

I’m not usually. The discussion though was more in line with characterization in general. Plus, I did see the movies, so I should at least be able to keep with discussion. It’s the comic canon where I can’t go further.

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nassergrant19

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#33  Edited By nassergrant19

@pyrofn:

I’m not usually.

Oh ok

The discussion though was more in line with characterization in general.

I see

Plus, I did see the movies, so I should at least be able to keep with discussion.

Cool tbh to fully assimilate in the SW community all you need is to see the films, watch the Star Wars: The Clone Wars animated series, and the Mandalorian live action series.

It’s the comic canon where I can’t go further.

Oh ok

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DarthAdi

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Goimg purely by the movies: No, he wasn't.

In Legends: No he wasn't.

In Canon: Maybe from a power progression point of view, but otherwise no. As other have said, being a Marry Sue is about more than power.

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Lord_Tenebrous

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He wasn't during the time when the original trilogy was being produced and released. The nitty gritty aspects of the Force and Jedi swordfighting hadn't been explored -- we had no reason to think anything of Luke matching with Vader. He had learned to tap into the Force, and to use a lightsaber. He was also the son of a great Jedi Knight, so there'll be a lot of natural talent in play. Even so, the Emperor's powers far overshadowed the young Jedi.

With the expansions of the prequels, well yeah, Luke's power growth becomes absurd and illogical. There are thousands of Jedi, each trained from infancy in the art of lightsaber combat and the Force. And their fighting styles were so much more sophisticated and energetic than what we saw in the original films.

Luckily, George Lucas was well aware of all this. He was the one behind it, after all. His rationalization amounted to Vader and old Ben having slipped far beneath Jedi standards in the 19 years between trilogies. Ben got old, and Vader was a cripple. By the time we see them in the original films, they're washed up. Luke was young and bright, but his training was limited, and he learned from guys considerably past their prime.

The sequel trilogy has no excuse, however. It was developed with the prequel background already in existence, yet angled for primitive choreography and just-add-water power growth.

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He wasn't during the time when the original trilogy was being produced and released. The nitty gritty aspects of the Force and Jedi swordfighting hadn't been explored -- we had no reason to think anything of Luke matching with Vader. He had learned to tap into the Force, and to use a lightsaber. He was also the son of a great Jedi Knight, so there'll be a lot of natural talent in play. Even so, the Emperor's powers far overshadowed the young Jedi.

With the expansions of the prequels, well yeah, Luke's power growth becomes absurd and illogical. There are thousands of Jedi, each trained from infancy in the art of lightsaber combat and the Force. And their fighting styles were so much more sophisticated and energetic than what we saw in the original films.

Luckily, George Lucas was well aware of all this. He was the one behind it, after all. His rationalization amounted to Vader and old Ben having slipped far beneath Jedi standards in the 19 years between trilogies. Ben got old, and Vader was a cripple. By the time we see them in the original films, they're washed up. Luke was young and bright, but his training was limited, and he learned from guys considerably past their prime.

The sequel trilogy has no excuse, however. It was developed with the prequel background already in existence, yet angled for primitive choreography and just-add-water power growth.

Basically this

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OT - No , it have more to do with character then with some power levels , not to mention that the power level once made perfect sense , it just stopped making sense post Vader retcons .

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doyul

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Luke is not Mary Sue. He has experienced so many failures and grown by the training. Also I believe in 1970~80(the time OT came out), many things of Star wars were different and Vader was not that powerful so Luke was able to beat him in the time of ROTJ.

But tbh as of now, I mean in canon, Luke(who trained for 4 years) being equal to Vader(who trained 13 years as Anakin and 23 years as suited version) is literally BS and makes no sense.

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@void_reborn said:
@frozen said:
@alphaq said:

No, a Mary Sue isn’t just an OP character, it’s one that has no flaws and excels at everything. Luke is naive in A New Hope, rash in Empire Strikes Back, conflicted in Return of the Jedi and broken in The Last Jedi - none of these are possible for a Mary Sue.

@catman5 said:

Well...kind of? In that regard he is, but not as a whole no

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turtleman1878

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No. If he was really a Mary Sue then he would've been a good match for Vader in ANH which would've been ridiculous. We already know that Luke shortly after ANH was subdued by Vader with only one hit of a lightsaber.

No Caption Provided

One year later, he had minimal training from Yoda and previous training with Obi-Wan and was toyed with by Darth Vader in ESB. Luke did land one hit after catching Vader off guard, but when Vader was actually serious Luke was defeated very easily and lost his hand.

After ESB he continued his training with Yoda and was already able to defeat the Grand Inquisitor although with difficulty.

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No Caption Provided

Then by the time of ROTJ, Luke had 3 years of total training when you count his time with Obi-Wan and Yoda. This was when Luke has become just as skilled as Vader Canonically.

If you compare this with Rey(a real Mary Sue), she beat Kylo Ren with no training at all. This happened despite Kylo Ren being severely injured, however, he was strong enough to kill other Jedi as seen in the comics. Then in TROS, 1 year has passed but Rey was already strong enough to beat Palpatine lol. Even without her all-the-Jedi amp, she was still overpowered in a year of time when compared to Luke in the same timeframe.

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@sheevsmacker said:
@void_reborn said:
@frozen said:
@alphaq said:

No, a Mary Sue isn’t just an OP character, it’s one that has no flaws and excels at everything. Luke is naive in A New Hope, rash in Empire Strikes Back, conflicted in Return of the Jedi and broken in The Last Jedi - none of these are possible for a Mary Sue.

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Mrsportsguy13

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No

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hellothere5432

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No. Luke received private training from the best which as seen with characters like Mace, Dooku and Maul greatly increases power levels. Similar to how private tutoring usually increases people's knowledge in real life. Luke also has an in universe reasoning for his power(his insane potential) and unlike Mary Sue's, he didn't always succeed as seen in ESB. Luke also fought in a war which tends to increase power levels drastically as seen with Anakin, Obi Wan, etc.

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Darthor

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The term Mary Sue is used wayyyyy too common. Mary Sue is supposed to be a character who got OP WITHOUT any explanations or training. Luke is different. His plot / character development really depicted his growth in the series

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@nassergrant19: I never thought Luke to be equal to Vader at the end of TRJ.

He was able to best him once in a fight, but at that point they had already engaged in battle multiple times (HQ cover it better).

So if a fight someone multiple times and can win 1 out of 10, i cannot be said to be equal.