Poll Is Black Panther faster than Wolverine ? (616 versions) (52 votes)
Yes 67%
No 33%
Is Black Panther faster than Wolverine ? (616 versions)
No, T'Challa is not faster than Logan, they are around the same speed. Let's break this down:
Their first scuffle was during Contest of Champions where BP initially dodges a lunge from Wolverine and then another swipe. After which they grapple and the fight stops. There's two things to consider with this fight: First of all, if Woverine had actually tagged him with his claws, BP would be dead. The writer simply can't have that, so of-course an important Marvel character is going to evade a fatal attack. Secondly, Wolverine has dodged multiple blows from Spider-Man in the same encounter too while landing his own (no claws). This doesn't mean that Wolverine is faster than Spider-Man though.
Their second and most notorious physical encounter is the one that's being questioned in the OP. What people fail to notice about this feat though, is that even though Wolverine has his claws out, it doesn't mean he was actually going to swing at T'Challa: he was still looking for answers. Wolverine always has his claws out when interrogating people for the intimidation factor, it doesn't mean he's going to actually gut them. In the scan there's no indication that Wolverine actually swung, since there would have been lines before his arm. It just looks like T'Challa takes Logan by surprise, hence the "whoa" and grabs his arm. Again this doesn't prove he's faster than Logan. Normal humans have been able to grab Wolverine before, but most importantly, Wolverine has done the same thing (pretty much) to Spider-Man, taking him by surprise and pinning him to a wall:
He has also taken an upgraded Spider-Man (The Other) by surprise and pinned him to the floor:
Then people will go onto say that Logan called T'Challa "fast". First of all, if you truly know Wolverine's character you'd know that he loves complimenting people when fighting, like calling them "fast" or "good". Such example include calling Elektra fast during Enemy of the State and calling Harada good in their fight after Logan gets his memories back Post-HoM. The second and most important point however, is that Spider-Man himself has called Wolverine fast. Again, all things considered, does this make Wolverine faster than Spider-Man?
Logan and T'Challa third and final encounter was during Cornell's run. I think everyone understand just how terrible and inconsistent Cornell's run was, in terms of Wolverine's personality, history and abilities. He was reduced to a quivering wreck that was afraid to shave, so clearly not prime Wolverine. Heck, after Fatal Attractions and most importantly The Death of Wolverine storyline, he was actually inviting conflict and was no-where near Cornell's portrayal of him. Anyway, in the fight we see Wolverine casually running into T'Challa's fists over and over again, that's it really. Due to Wolverine not thinking straight, not being in his prime and it being explicitly stated that he'd lost his skill, this encounter can be discounted. On another note, not thinking straight does affect fighting ability and as a by-product also affects fighting speed. A great example of this is Blade vs Spider-Man. When Spider-Man was vampiric, Blade had no trouble tagging him multiple times, whereas when Spider-Man was in his own mindset, he was pretty much toying with Blade.
Another interesting point, is that other street levellers who are at the same speed or somewhat slower than Logan, like Captain America and Deadpool have tagged Black Panther multiple times, so just because Logan hasn't it doesn't mean he's slower. With his claws Wolverine would fatally wound T'Challa if he connected.
I think the most important take away message is that outside of their physical encounters, Logan has the same, if not better speed feats. This would actually imply that Wolverine is faster than Black Panther. Let's look at Thor vs Silver Surfer. In every encounter, Thor has had no trouble tagging Surfer and a noticeable gap in speed is never shown. However, looking at outside feats it's clear as day that Silver Surfer is faster and has better combat speed.
TL;DR:
- If Wolverine fully connects with his claws, like when he lunged at BP during Contest of Champions, T'Challa would be fatally wounded. Writers can't allow this.
- Everything T'Challa has done to Wolverine, Wolverine has done to Spider-Man. This doesn't make Wolverine faster than Spider-Man though.
- Street levellers that are at the same speed or slower than Logan have tagged Black Panther multiple times.
- Logan has better speed feats than T'Challa outside of their physical encounters, implying that Wolverine is actually faster. No speed gap is seen between Thor and Silver Surfer in their fights, but Silver Surfer is definitely faster.
- In Conclusion: Black Panther is not faster than Wolverine, they are around the same speed. However, I'd say that T'Challa is more agile and acrobatic.
Their first scuffle was during Contest of Champions where BP initially dodges a lunge from Wolverine and then another swipe. After which they grapple and the fight stops. There's two things to consider with this fight: First of all, if Woverine had actually tagged him with his claws, BP would be dead. The writer simply can't have that, so of-course an important Marvel character is going to evade a fatal attack.
Cleremont could have had wolverine fight T'challa without his claws and he could have had wolverine his him with back hands if needed. He also didn't have to throw dialogue like this in:
Secondly, Wolverine has dodged multiple blows from Spider-Man in the same encounter too while landing his own (no claws). This doesn't mean that Wolverine is faster than Spider-Man though.
Spider-man and wolverine never fought in contest of champions. Wolverine did have that one encounter where he did dodge blows from spider-man, but wolverine and spider-man have had many encounters. Spider-man has evaded wolverine in a few of them like secret wars. Plus comparing there actual feats spider-man has better showings.
Their second and most notorious physical encounter is the one that's being questioned in the OP. What people fail to notice about this feat though, is that even though Wolverine has his claws out, it doesn't mean he was actually going to swing at T'Challa: he was still looking for answers. Wolverine always has his claws out when interrogating people for the intimidation factor, it doesn't mean he's going to actually gut them. In the scan there's no indication that Wolverine actually swung, since there would have been lines before his arm. It just looks like T'Challa takes Logan by surprise, hence the "whoa" and grabs his arm. Again this doesn't prove he's faster than Logan. Normal humans have been able to grab Wolverine before, but most importantly, Wolverine has done the same thing (pretty much) to Spider-Man, taking him by surprise and pinning him to a wall:
I disagree there is no indication wolverine swung his arms. In the panel where T'challa grabs him we see that wolverine's arm is extended. There aren't always motion lines in a comic when a character throws a punch. As for your scan with spider-man it is quite different. Peter put his hands on logan and asked him to give him one good reason he should listen. They were not in an engagement unlike wolverine and black panther during wild kingdom.
He has also taken an upgraded Spider-Man (The Other) by surprise and pinned him to the floor:
This was during fallen son and your missing context. Captain america had just died and Peter was in denial. Wolverine tried to steal a chair that Peter was saving for cap, but logan said he wont be needing it, because Logan saw his body. Peter said it must have been a clone or an LMD and he lashed out after Logan said he was dead. Logan did pin Peter but he was acting irrationally.
Then people will go onto say that Logan called T'Challa "fast". First of all, if you truly know Wolverine's character you'd know that he loves complimenting people when fighting, like calling them "fast" or "good". Such example include calling Elektra fast during Enemy of the State and calling Harada good in their fight after Logan gets his memories back Post-HoM.
Wolverine doesn't just randomly call people fast or good or compliment people. With elektra she just avoided his claws, and stabbed wolverine with her broken sais and kneed him in the face.
As for silver samurai he was dodging wolverines kicks. So its not like either compliment was undeserved. Both showcased how "fast" or how "good" they were in the same fight where wolverine complimented him.
The second and most important point however, is that Spider-Man himself has called Wolverine fast. Again, all things considered, does this make Wolverine faster than Spider-Man?
Peter has made similar statement's about T'challa and on the same page where Peter questions Logan's speed he than says that no Logan is not faster than him. On the next page Peter says he is moving in slow motion. I have looked into this recently but there is such a thing called slow motion anxiety:
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And peter in that story line was under a lot of stress so it makes sense his anxiety slowed him down. We see this in the page before the graveyard fight where Peter is trying to sleep but he kept tossing and turning where as wolverine is much more relaxed and is meditating. Peter even commented in the same story that panic makes him sloppy. And how he kept freezing up during that story.
I will skip the part about Cornell's wolverine because I agree its not a great example.
Another interesting point, is that other street levellers who are at the same speed or somewhat slower than Logan, like Captain America and Deadpool have tagged Black Panther multiple times, so just because Logan hasn't it doesn't mean he's slower. With his claws Wolverine would fatally wound T'Challa if he connected.
I would say deadpool and cap are in the same tier as wolverine and black panther.
I think the most important take away message is that outside of their physical encounters, Logan has the same, if not better speed feats. This would actually imply that Wolverine is faster than Black Panther.
I do not agree wolverines speed feats are better.
@masterskywalker said:
Has Panther even bullet timed before?
No. Neither does wolverine however. Both can be argued to be bullet timers by scaling off of other characters.
@jashro44: No. Neither does wolverine however. Both can be argued to be bullet timers by scaling off of other characters.
Wolverine actually has bullet timed on an occasion or so, when he actually bothers to dodge rather than tank. They are very very rare, but he has done it. Case in point:
From Wolverine: Bloody Choices
@brucerogers: Wolverine knew the kid was going to draw the gun and was scared so he decided to follow him. Pretty sure Logan was trying to prevent the kid from doing something stupid but he was to late:
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I don't consider this bullet timing. Wolverine could have been moving to the kid before the bullet was fired (all though the way the art depicts the events it doesn't look like Logan makes a move until the guy threw the knife at him honestly).
@jashro44 said:
Their first scuffle was during Contest of Champions where BP initially dodges a lunge from Wolverine and then another swipe. After which they grapple and the fight stops. There's two things to consider with this fight: First of all, if Woverine had actually tagged him with his claws, BP would be dead. The writer simply can't have that, so of-course an important Marvel character is going to evade a fatal attack.
Cleremont could have had wolverine fight T'challa without his claws and he could have had wolverine his him with back hands if needed. He also didn't have to throw dialogue like this in:
I don't think that quote means BP is faster. Wolverine was also referring to his own speed and how he isn't easily evaded too.
Secondly, Wolverine has dodged multiple blows from Spider-Man in the same encounter too while landing his own (no claws). This doesn't mean that Wolverine is faster than Spider-Man though.
Spider-man and wolverine never fought in contest of champions. Wolverine did have that one encounter where he did dodge blows from spider-man, but wolverine and spider-man have had many encounters. Spider-man has evaded wolverine in a few of them like secret wars. Plus comparing there actual feats spider-man has better showings.
I know they haven't fought in CoC, I meant Wolverine has dodged blows from Spider-Man in the same fight. They have both evaded each other. I know Spider-Man is faster, that's my whole point. Just because T'Challa has evaded Wolverine's blows doesn't mean he's faster, just like Wolverine isn't faster than Spider-man.
Their second and most notorious physical encounter is the one that's being questioned in the OP. What people fail to notice about this feat though, is that even though Wolverine has his claws out, it doesn't mean he was actually going to swing at T'Challa: he was still looking for answers. Wolverine always has his claws out when interrogating people for the intimidation factor, it doesn't mean he's going to actually gut them. In the scan there's no indication that Wolverine actually swung, since there would have been lines before his arm. It just looks like T'Challa takes Logan by surprise, hence the "whoa" and grabs his arm. Again this doesn't prove he's faster than Logan. Normal humans have been able to grab Wolverine before, but most importantly, Wolverine has done the same thing (pretty much) to Spider-Man, taking him by surprise and pinning him to a wall:
I disagree there is no indication wolverine swung his arms. In the panel where T'challa grabs him we see that wolverine's arm is extended. There aren't always motion lines in a comic when a character throws a punch. As for your scan with spider-man it is quite different. Peter put his hands on logan and asked him to give him one good reason he should listen. They were not in an engagement unlike wolverine and black panther during wild kingdom.
Or T'Challa could have grabbed his hand and manually extended it in order to perform the throw on Wolverine? Wolverine wasn't trying to engage T'Challa either, despite his aggressiveness, that's just who Logan is. He was asking him questions and T'Challa just walked over and threw him.
He has also taken an upgraded Spider-Man (The Other) by surprise and pinned him to the floor:
This was during fallen son and your missing context. Captain america had just died and Peter was in denial. Wolverine tried to steal a chair that Peter was saving for cap, but logan said he wont be needing it, because Logan saw his body. Peter said it must have been a clone or an LMD and he lashed out after Logan said he was dead. Logan did pin Peter but he was acting irrationally.
I only used it to show that Wolverine has taken Spider-Man by surprise but it doesn't mean Logan is faster. Spider-Man was acting just as aggressively as Logan was during Wild Kingdom too.
Then people will go onto say that Logan called T'Challa "fast". First of all, if you truly know Wolverine's character you'd know that he loves complimenting people when fighting, like calling them "fast" or "good". Such example include calling Elektra fast during Enemy of the State and calling Harada good in their fight after Logan gets his memories back Post-HoM.
Wolverine doesn't just randomly call people fast or good or compliment people. With elektra she just avoided his claws, and stabbed wolverine with her broken sais and kneed him in the face.
As for silver samurai he was dodging wolverines kicks. So its not like either compliment was undeserved. Both showcased how "fast" or how "good" they were in the same fight where wolverine complimented him.
The compliments are deserved, i'm not denying that. But it is in character for Wolverine to compliment, he's done it other times too but I can't remember who he has said it to.
The second and most important point however, is that Spider-Man himself has called Wolverine fast. Again, all things considered, does this make Wolverine faster than Spider-Man?
Peter has made similar statement's about T'challa and on the same page where Peter questions Logan's speed he than says that no Logan is not faster than him. On the next page Peter says he is moving in slow motion. I have looked into this recently but there is such a thing called slow motion anxiety:
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And peter in that story line was under a lot of stress so it makes sense his anxiety slowed him down. We see this in the page before the graveyard fight where Peter is trying to sleep but he kept tossing and turning where as wolverine is much more relaxed and is meditating. Peter even commented in the same story that panic makes him sloppy. And how he kept freezing up during that story.
I will skip the part about Cornell's wolverine because I agree its not a great example.
I completely agree that we shouldn't take it seriously when Spider-Man questions whether Wolverine is faster than him, there's context behind that. But Peter still called Logan fast, that was my whole point regarding that.
Another interesting point, is that other street levellers who are at the same speed or somewhat slower than Logan, like Captain America and Deadpool have tagged Black Panther multiple times, so just because Logan hasn't it doesn't mean he's slower. With his claws Wolverine would fatally wound T'Challa if he connected.
I would say deadpool and cap are in the same tier as wolverine and black panther.
If they are, isn't it unjustified when people say BP is faster than Logan when others on Logan's speed level have had no trouble fighting on equal speed with T'Challa?
I think the most important take away message is that outside of their physical encounters, Logan has the same, if not better speed feats. This would actually imply that Wolverine is faster than Black Panther.
I do not agree wolverines speed feats are better.
Shall we compare? Also, Logan has bullet timed before, here's one that's faster than anything T'Challa has done as far as i'm aware:
Here are some other bullet timing feats outside of the sniper one I posted:
I wasn't talking about that since we clearly see Wolverine save the kid from Shiv's knife, after the shot hits the table and surprises everyone. I was referring to Wolverine saving the kid off-panel after the thugs open fire at him.
That doesn't make any sense because Logan was already holding the kid by the time they got out of there cars. Likewise I find it hard to believe the writer would show events that are exactly the same as the events the mooks are recounting but than have the mooks refer to a totally different instance that happened off panel.
Regardless even assuming they were referring to something which happened off panel that makes the feat dismissible as it could easily be said there account of the events was incorrect. We've seen how regular people view batman as a monster during batman year one:
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Its possible these mooks had a faulty description of wolverine as well. So I don't count second hand accounts from sources with no credibility....Hell even sources with credibility in cases like this would be sketchy.
I don't they were inside the club to witness the kid opening fire. They seemed to have come to their bosses aid after hearing the gunshots, due to being parked nearby. At least, that's how I interpret it.
Bullfinch was on a patio outside.
@jay_z94 said:
Here are some other bullet timing feats outside of the sniper one I posted:
I'll respond to the rest of your post later but just quickly:
- Wolverine is diving in front of a bullet to protect someone. Body guards in real life are trained to do the same thing.
- Wolverine is clearly timing his movements. In the first panel he says "wait for it..." and in the second he says "Now!" That is him timing the shooters movements.
- Aim dodging is a means to an ends. Just because daredevil said "wolverine is dodging all those bullets!" doesn't mean its not aim dodging. Aim dodging is a method of avoiding bullets.
For a few to be bullet timing it needs to be spelled out like this:
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@jay_z94 said:
@jashro44: In the first and second scans I posted Wolverine clearly moves/leaps after the bullets have been fired.
Then there's still his Sniper feat. He had to jump at just the right time in order to intercept the sniper bullets.
Astral had enough time to think "no my body!" in the time frame it took wolverine to leap. And we hear the "buddabudd" noise as wolverine is leaping which makes it hard to say if wolverine leapt before or after the bullet was fired or at the same time. Seems clear the "buddabudd" sound is the sound of the gun being fired. Based on the onamonapia its possible that the panel the bullet is being fired and the panel of wolverine moving are happening simultaneously rather than in sequential order.
Again in the second scan Logan is clearly timing his leap. He had time to prepare when to jump. Its possible that Logan did jump as the bullet was fired. Just because we see wolverine jump in the panel after the panel which shows the bullet being fired doesn't necessarily mean he didn't leap until after the bullet was fired.
I don't think that quote means BP is faster. Wolverine was also referring to his own speed and how he isn't easily evaded too.
Well evading someone requires speed so it can be interpreted that black panther did move quicker than wolverine. Regardless it seems consistent for wolverine to be impressed by T'challa's speed.
I know they haven't fought in CoC, I meant Wolverine has dodged blows from Spider-Man in the same fight. They have both evaded each other. I know Spider-Man is faster, that's my whole point. Just because T'Challa has evaded Wolverine's blows doesn't mean he's faster, just like Wolverine isn't faster than Spider-man.
Well I think the difference is wolverine has commented on black panthers speed in all of there fights (discounting Cornell). Wolverine and spider-man go back and fourth. There are showings where Logan does dodge Peter but there are also showings where Peter evades Logan along with the X-men, and wolverine makes a comment and says "we're lucky he didn't attack us". Plus spider-man isn't a skilled martial artist so it can be argued that wolverine out maneuvering him has to do with his blows being telegraphed rather than speed.
I only used it to show that Wolverine has taken Spider-Man by surprise but it doesn't mean Logan is faster. Spider-Man was acting just as aggressively as Logan was during Wild Kingdom too.
I don't see it. Wolverine made a threat to black panther and was clearly ready for a fight. Peter did not make a threat and wasn't looking for a fight. He was being aggressive but he wasn't expecting wolverine to respond that way. At least looking at the scans you posted.
The compliments are deserved, i'm not denying that. But it is in character for Wolverine to compliment, he's done it other times too but I can't remember who he has said it to.
OK.
I completely agree that we shouldn't take it seriously when Spider-Man questions whether Wolverine is faster than him, there's context behind that. But Peter still called Logan fast, that was my whole point regarding that.
Well as I said above regarding spider-man and wolverine's fights. Regardless I am saying there is a specific reason Peter made that statement.
If they are, isn't it unjustified when people say BP is faster than Logan when others on Logan's speed level have had no trouble fighting on equal speed with T'Challa?
I do view T'challa and wolverine in the same tier. I think there feats are similar. I do think based on there fights it can be argued T'challa is slightly quicker though.
Shall we compare? Also, Logan has bullet timed before, here's one that's faster than anything T'Challa has done as far as i'm aware:
I honestly don't think this is bullet timing. With bullet timing I think we need to see the bullets travel through the air on panel, and in the same panel we see the bullets traveling through the air we see the characters position:
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Now this maybe my fault because I posted that scan of Peter dodging a sniper bullet--which thinking about it a bit more, doesn't meet my own criteria--so I'll replace it with this scan of kaine and shang-chi instead. But with all these scans, we see the bullet leaving the barrel of the gun, and travel to the target and than the target moves. I think your relying to much on panel sequence.
@morpheus_ said:
@jashro44: I don't believe it's out of their league but it probably makes him marginally faster, albeit still in the same tier; likewise so with Steve, who has several bullet timing feats.
Well maybe. I've always felt there is a difference between reacting in a knee jerk type fashion and true combat speed. Granted looking at deadpools feat in defenders he might have been slicing multiple bullets from the air so I guess that wouldn't be a knee jerk reaction.
@jashro44 said:
@jay_z94 said:
@jashro44: In the first and second scans I posted Wolverine clearly moves/leaps after the bullets have been fired.
Then there's still his Sniper feat. He had to jump at just the right time in order to intercept the sniper bullets.
Astral had enough time to think "no my body!" in the time frame it took wolverine to leap. And we hear the "buddabudd" noise as wolverine is leaping which makes it hard to say if wolverine leapt before or after the bullet was fired or at the same time. Seems clear the "buddabudd" sound is the sound of the gun being fired. Based on the onamonapia its possible that the panel the bullet is being fired and the panel of wolverine moving are happening simultaneously rather than in sequential order.
Considering the speed of bullets, I doubt Astral said it just as bullets were being fired, the writer just had to get that speech in there. Yeah the buddabudd sound is obviously the gun fire, but it's made very clear that the guns are fired well before Astral speaks or Wolverine starts running.
Again in the second scan Logan is clearly timing his leap. He had time to prepare when to jump. Its possible that Logan did jump as the bullet was fired. Just because we see wolverine jump in the panel after the panel which shows the bullet being fired doesn't necessarily mean he didn't leap until after the bullet was fired.
Yes, Wolverine had to time his jump, but he still timed it with the bullets. You could say that he jumped as the bullets were fired, not after. Which actually showcases impressive jump speed when you come think of it.
I don't think that quote means BP is faster. Wolverine was also referring to his own speed and how he isn't easily evaded too.
Well evading someone requires speed so it can be interpreted that black panther did move quicker than wolverine. Regardless it seems consistent for wolverine to be impressed by T'challa's speed.
Yeah T'Challa moved quicker than Wolverine in that instance. Just like the instances where Logan has moved quicker than Spider-Man.
I know they haven't fought in CoC, I meant Wolverine has dodged blows from Spider-Man in the same fight. They have both evaded each other. I know Spider-Man is faster, that's my whole point. Just because T'Challa has evaded Wolverine's blows doesn't mean he's faster, just like Wolverine isn't faster than Spider-man.
Well I think the difference is wolverine has commented on black panthers speed in all of there fights (discounting Cornell). Wolverine and spider-man go back and fourth. There are showings where Logan does dodge Peter but there are also showings where Peter evades Logan along with the X-men, and wolverine makes a comment and says "we're lucky he didn't attack us". Plus spider-man isn't a skilled martial artist so it can be argued that wolverine out manoeuvring him has to do with his blows being telegraphed rather than speed.
My point is that Wolverine complimenting Black Panther means that he's fast, but it doesn't mean he's necessarily faster than Wolverine, which is why I brought up Spider-Man calling Wolverine fast. Yeah it can be argued Logan is able to tag him due to superior skill, but then again he's dodged Spider-Man's blows which is due to speed.
I only used it to show that Wolverine has taken Spider-Man by surprise but it doesn't mean Logan is faster. Spider-Man was acting just as aggressively as Logan was during Wild Kingdom too.
I don't see it. Wolverine made a threat to black panther and was clearly ready for a fight. Peter did not make a threat and wasn't looking for a fight. He was being aggressive but he wasn't expecting wolverine to respond that way. At least looking at the scans you posted.
So let me get this straight: Wolverine being in character and asking questions = Him looking for a fight. But Spider-Man being out of character (angry) and punching Logan = He wasn't looking for a fight?
I completely agree that we shouldn't take it seriously when Spider-Man questions whether Wolverine is faster than him, there's context behind that. But Peter still called Logan fast, that was my whole point regarding that.
Well as I said above regarding spider-man and wolverine's fights. Regardless I am saying there is a specific reason Peter made that statement.
Yeah there is a reason and context behind why Spider-Man thought Wolverine was faster and doubted his own speed, i'm not saying we should take that quote seriously. But we can't take away the fact he called Wolverine fast, that's an observation that Peter made.
If they are, isn't it unjustified when people say BP is faster than Logan when others on Logan's speed level have had no trouble fighting on equal speed with T'Challa?
I do view T'challa and wolverine in the same tier. I think there feats are similar. I do think based on there fights it can be argued T'challa is slightly quicker though.
Yeah I think they are the same too. Well I've seen Logan perform better speed feats than T'Challa which I think balances out the fact that T'Challa has performed better in their encounters. But then again, we can't judge two characters' speed just by their encounters/fights. If that were the case; Thor and Silver surfer are the same speed, Punisher and Wolverine are the same speed, etc.
Shall we compare? Also, Logan has bullet timed before, here's one that's faster than anything T'Challa has done as far as i'm aware:
I honestly don't think this is bullet timing. With bullet timing I think we need to see the bullets travel through the air on panel, and in the same panel we see the bullets traveling through the air we see the characters position:
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Now this maybe my fault because I posted that scan of Peter dodging a sniper bullet--which thinking about it a bit more, doesn't meet my own criteria--so I'll replace it with this scan of kaine and shang-chi instead. But with all these scans, we see the bullet leaving the barrel of the gun, and travel to the target and than the target moves. I think your relying to much on panel sequence.
Yes, the scans and criteria you've posted does definitely mean that the character bullet timed. But I think it's unfair to discount everything that doesn't match this criteria. In the Sniper feat, It shows the sniper firing first and Logan had to time his jump perfectly, too late or too early and he would have missed the bullets. And it's not as if he aim dodged/blocked either, the sniper was looking at them for a while, so he had to wait until after the shots were fired.
Considering the speed of bullets, I doubt Astral said it just as bullets were being fired, the writer just had to get that speech in there. Yeah the buddabudd sound is obviously the gun fire, but it's made very clear that the guns are fired well before Astral speaks or Wolverine starts running.
This doesn't make any sense. Either those bullets wouldn't be faster than the speed of sound or Astra's speech doesn't take place in between the span of the bullets being fired and the bullets traveling to her body.
Yes, Wolverine had to time his jump, but he still timed it with the bullets. You could say that he jumped as the bullets were fired, not after. Which actually showcases impressive jump speed when you come think of it.
Wouldn't show bullet timing reactions as he would be timing his movements with the shooters.
Yeah T'Challa moved quicker than Wolverine in that instance. Just like the instances where Logan has moved quicker than Spider-Man.
Difference being is spider-man was suffering from anxiety.
My point is that Wolverine complimenting Black Panther means that he's fast, but it doesn't mean he's necessarily faster than Wolverine, which is why I brought up Spider-Man calling Wolverine fast. Yeah it can be argued Logan is able to tag him due to superior skill, but then again he's dodged Spider-Man's blows which is due to speed.
Again there is more to Logan dodging spider-mans blows than just speed.
So let me get this straight: Wolverine being in character and asking questions = Him looking for a fight. But Spider-Man being out of character (angry) and punching Logan = He wasn't looking for a fight?
I think your confused which instance I was talking about. I was talking about these scans you posted:
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With fallen son my counter is Peter was acting irrationally. Similar to the death of jean dewolff arc when daredevil beat him and admitted he wouldn't stand a chance if Peter were in the right state of mind.
Yeah there is a reason and context behind why Spider-Man thought Wolverine was faster and doubted his own speed, i'm not saying we should take that quote seriously. But we can't take away the fact he called Wolverine fast, that's an observation that Peter made.
He also said he was moving slower than normal.
Yeah I think they are the same too. Well I've seen Logan perform better speed feats than T'Challa which I think balances out the fact that T'Challa has performed better in their encounters. But then again, we can't judge two characters' speed just by their encounters/fights. If that were the case; Thor and Silver surfer are the same speed, Punisher and Wolverine are the same speed, etc.
Well I have my issues with surfers speed but that isn't relevant to this thread. And punisher has never been shown to be faster or as fast as wolverine. He tagged him but that isn't the same thing.
Yes, the scans and criteria you've posted does definitely mean that the character bullet timed. But I think it's unfair to discount everything that doesn't match this criteria.
I don't see why not. As I don't view anything else as being intended to be bullet timing as any other feat relies on speculation.
In the Sniper feat, It shows the sniper firing first and Logan had to time his jump perfectly, too late or too early and he would have missed the bullets.
If Matt has precise timing down to the last microsecond which lets him swat bullets back at the shooter I don't see why Logan's timing can't be that precise.
And it's not as if he aim dodged/blocked either, the sniper was looking at them for a while, so he had to wait until after the shots were fired.
Logan has enhanced senses so that could be a contributing factor.
@jashro44 said:
Considering the speed of bullets, I doubt Astral said it just as bullets were being fired, the writer just had to get that speech in there. Yeah the buddabudd sound is obviously the gun fire, but it's made very clear that the guns are fired well before Astral speaks or Wolverine starts running.
This doesn't make any sense. Either those bullets wouldn't be faster than the speed of sound or Astra's speech doesn't take place in between the span of the bullets being fired and the bullets traveling to her body.
Yeah that's pretty confusing actually, however the panels do explicitly show the bullets being fired then Wolverine moving after this.
Yes, Wolverine had to time his jump, but he still timed it with the bullets. You could say that he jumped as the bullets were fired, not after. Which actually showcases impressive jump speed when you come think of it.
Wouldn't show bullet timing reactions as he would be timing his movements with the shooters.
Yeah I've acknowledged this, he reacted as they were fired, not after.
Yeah T'Challa moved quicker than Wolverine in that instance. Just like the instances where Logan has moved quicker than Spider-Man.
Difference being is spider-man was suffering from anxiety.
Not just the graveyard instance, there are other times when Logan has moved faster than Spider-Man.
My point is that Wolverine complimenting Black Panther means that he's fast, but it doesn't mean he's necessarily faster than Wolverine, which is why I brought up Spider-Man calling Wolverine fast. Yeah it can be argued Logan is able to tag him due to superior skill, but then again he's dodged Spider-Man's blows which is due to speed.
Again there is more to Logan dodging spider-mans blows than just speed.
Look above, not referring to the graveyard scene.
So let me get this straight: Wolverine being in character and asking questions = Him looking for a fight. But Spider-Man being out of character (angry) and punching Logan = He wasn't looking for a fight?
I think your confused which instance I was talking about. I was talking about these scans you posted:
Gallery
With fallen son my counter is Peter was acting irrationally. Similar to the death of jean dewolff arc when daredevil beat him and admitted he wouldn't stand a chance if Peter were in the right state of mind.
My bad. With the instance where Spider-Man has his hand on Logan's back, he wasn't looking for a fight. However, neither was Wolverine during Wild Kingdom: Wolverine was asking questions in his usual aggressive manner and T'Challa simply engaged him and took him by surprise, just like in the scans above with Spider-Man and Wolverine.
During Fallen Son, yeah I can understand he wasn't in the right state of mind, but he was also amped by the other and Wolverine still was able to momentarily overwhelm him with speed.
Yeah there is a reason and context behind why Spider-Man thought Wolverine was faster and doubted his own speed, i'm not saying we should take that quote seriously. But we can't take away the fact he called Wolverine fast, that's an observation that Peter made.
He also said he was moving slower than normal.
Spider-Man's own speed doesn't affect Wolverine's speed.
Yeah I think they are the same too. Well I've seen Logan perform better speed feats than T'Challa which I think balances out the fact that T'Challa has performed better in their encounters. But then again, we can't judge two characters' speed just by their encounters/fights. If that were the case; Thor and Silver surfer are the same speed, Punisher and Wolverine are the same speed, etc.
Well I have my issues with surfers speed but that isn't relevant to this thread. And punisher has never been shown to be faster or as fast as wolverine. He tagged him but that isn't the same thing.
Silver Surfer has multiple speed and reaction feats to prove he's much faster than Thor. Punisher has been depicted as being around the same speed as Wolverine in one of their fights. Logan initially blitzes Punisher by surprise, but then they fight on equal footing:
https://imgur.com/a/erwI1
Yes, the scans and criteria you've posted does definitely mean that the character bullet timed. But I think it's unfair to discount everything that doesn't match this criteria.
I don't see why not. As I don't view anything else as being intended to be bullet timing as any other feat relies on speculation.
Fair enough if that's enough that's your opinion, but I think it's justified to call a feat bullet timing if there's enough evidence to say so.
In the Sniper feat, It shows the sniper firing first and Logan had to time his jump perfectly, too late or too early and he would have missed the bullets.
If Matt has precise timing down to the last microsecond which lets him swat bullets back at the shooter I don't see why Logan's timing can't be that precise.
But that's bullet timing in Matt's case too. Wolverine timing his jump until after a sniper has been fired is bullet timing, if he'd jumped too early or late he wouldn't have intercepted the bullets.
And it's not as if he aim dodged/blocked either, the sniper was looking at them for a while, so he had to wait until after the shots were fired.
Logan has enhanced senses so that could be a contributing factor.
I highly doubt that, that never get's alluded to or implied within the scan.
Yeah that's pretty confusing actually, however the panels do explicitly show the bullets being fired then Wolverine moving after this.
My whole argument is that they don't. Just because the panel wolverine is leaping in front of the bullets happened after the panel where we see the guy shooting the gun doesn't mean it happened in that order. Wolverine could be leaping at the same time we see the gun shot.
Not just the graveyard instance, there are other times when Logan has moved faster than Spider-Man.
As I said spider-man isn't a skilled fighter. Wolverine dodging his blows could have more to do with skill than speed.
My bad. With the instance where Spider-Man has his hand on Logan's back, he wasn't looking for a fight. However, neither was Wolverine during Wild Kingdom: Wolverine was asking questions in his usual aggressive manner and T'Challa simply engaged him and took him by surprise, just like in the scans above with Spider-Man and Wolverine.
I don't agree. Again to me it looks like wolverine threw a swipe at him based on his arm being extended.
During Fallen Son, yeah I can understand he wasn't in the right state of mind, but he was also amped by the other and Wolverine still was able to momentarily overwhelm him with speed.
While he was supposedly faster with the other his speed feats really weren't better. Likewise I don't believe the amp cancels out Peter acting irrationally.
Spider-Man's own speed doesn't affect Wolverine's speed.
When your talking about a specific comment spider-man made about wolverines speed in comparison to himself, yes it does.
Silver Surfer has multiple speed and reaction feats to prove he's much faster than Thor. Punisher has been depicted as being around the same speed as Wolverine in one of their fights. Logan initially blitzes Punisher by surprise, but then they fight on equal footing:
I'm not going to tackle the silver surfer stuff because this isn't the right thread for that and that is a whole different conversation I don't want to get tied up in. Regarding Punisher and Wolverine Frank was using a lot of different weapons in that fight and just because he did land some hits up close doesn't mean there in the same league in terms of speed. Its not like we saw them exchange a series of blows where they were blocking and parrying each other's attacks. Wolverine might be faster but he can still be tagged by a slower character.
Fair enough if that's enough that's your opinion, but I think it's justified to call a feat bullet timing if there's enough evidence to say so.
I don't trust fan speculations because most of the time its wrong and comes down to interpretation. It just isn't reliable.
But that's bullet timing in Matt's case too. Wolverine timing his jump until after a sniper has been fired is bullet timing, if he'd jumped too early or late he wouldn't have intercepted the bullets.
I use to think so to until I had a debate with Nick. If we go back to Stan Lee's run it was actually established early on its precise timing on Matt's part. He calculates the distance and angle between himself and the shooter and swings accordingly.
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