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#1 Posted by TonyMartial (5990 posts) - - Show Bio

The Winter Soldier movie is basically where he received his amp. I think we can apply Civil War to this.

If we look closely at this scene, Steve actually had time to react to the kick and was braced with his shield and Batroc still sends Steve a good distance back, twice.

Look at the level of skill, speed and durability he shows in this scene to last this long against a shielded Steve.

Even in this scene (yes he lost), he still showcased great durability to tank multiple hits. He awakens pretty quickly after being knocked out by Steve too.

Compared to other combatants, look at how effortless it is for Steve to take out Rumlow. But Rumlow did much better against him in Civil War, because of his stat boost with the new suit. What if stats were equalized in the Batroc vs Steve fight, because we know how good Steves physicals are. The fight was already pretty long enough.

I think theres no problem placing him around just above Widow/Season 2 Green Arrow or White Canary

Oliver and Sara against a weaker Super Soldier, dismantled very quickly.

Widow against Bucky (IIRC people who worked on the movie said Steve and Bucky are equals) with some support as well. Dismantled very quickly

If anyone else has anything to add, you're more than welcome.

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#2 Posted by TonyMartial (5990 posts) - - Show Bio

I've seen you rate Batroc highly, I think you may be interested in this @amcu

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#3 Edited by MarvelandDCfan24 (5727 posts) - - Show Bio

I think hes Black Widow level h2h is not with her gear though

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#4 Edited by TonyMartial (5990 posts) - - Show Bio

@marvelanddcfan24 said:

I think hes Black Widow level h2h is not with her gear though

I think thats a solid claim. Users will disagree because of the lack of feats he has but thats fine, his showing against CA is just really good.

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#5 Edited by jayc1324 (25861 posts) - - Show Bio

I have always been a huge proponent of Batroc's. Everyone says he got stomped, but the fight lasted a while and lasted long enough to have two separate stages (with shield and without shield). Batroc landed multiple hits, knocked Cap down twice, tanked shield bashes and kicks, and he did all of this against a man with superhuman physicals and an indestructible shield, putting him at a massive disadvantage. Even Cap blocking all of his hits is something impressive, because it meant that Cap was not in a position to strike back. He had to respect Batroc's attacks and take the time to react to them. Keeping Cap on the defensive is pretty impressive for a normal human, I mean look at how he immediately dismantles other normal humans. Batroc is a beast. Hawkeye's showing against BP is close but imo he has the best feat against a super soldier for a normal human in the entire MCU.

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#6 Posted by MarvelandDCfan24 (5727 posts) - - Show Bio

@tonymartial: he gave Cap a good fight and looking at Widows fight with WS she really is nothing to super soldiers

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#7 Posted by TonyMartial (5990 posts) - - Show Bio

@jayc1324 said:

I have always been a huge proponent of Batroc's. Everyone says he got stomped, but the fight lasted a while and lasted long enough to have two separate stages. Batroc landed multiple hits, knocked Cap down twice, tanked shield bashes and kicks, and he did all of this against a man with superhuman physicals and an indestructible shield, putting him at a massive disadvantage. Even Cap blocking all of his hits is something worth while, because it meant that Cap was not in a position to strike back, he had to respect Batroc's attacks and take the time to react to them. Keeping Cap on the defensive is pretty impressive for a normal human, I mean look at how he immediately dismantles other normal humans. Batroc is a beast. Hawkeye's showing against BP is close but imo he has the best feat against a super soldier for a normal human in the entire MCU.

Thank you for the great response, I agree with every single word of it. Yes, as I provided in the post so many skilled combatants can't do anything to super soldiers.

Even the big ass bulky henchman were getting one shotted by Steve in the Elevator, Steve is also capable of one shotting Ultron bots.

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#8 Posted by TonyMartial (5990 posts) - - Show Bio

@tonymartial: he gave Cap a good fight and looking at Widows fight with WS she really is nothing to super soldiers

Yeah, exactly.

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#9 Edited by Riddlerfan77 (4497 posts) - - Show Bio

Batroc's problem isn't that he isn't impressive. It's that he has one feat. Look at how wanked he is compared to people on the forums. One feat doesn't mean he can beat characters like Nolan Batman, MCU Widow, CW Canary and Arrow, MCU Daredevil ect. It's a lot of scaling and hype but only one feat to back up said hype/scaling. We would need more than one feat to put Batroc where you're putting him at. Good points nonetheless.

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#10 Edited by Amcu (13536 posts) - - Show Bio

@tonymartial said:

I've seen you rate Batroc highly, I think you may be interested in this @amcu

Thanks for the tag! I'm on mobile right now so I can't get the gifs I want but I'll respond anyways.

I used to rate Batroc highly but I changed my mind. The problem with his feat against Cap is that Cap strooke me as being far more skilled during that fight.

Batroc pressured Cap while Cap was unprepared and than he kept him off balance for some time and landed 1-2 kicks. Now you could say that Batroc landed the last kick on Cap while he was on his feet. But he still seemed off balance and unprepared to me.

The problem I have with using this as justification for him being able to legit tag Cap in a regular fight is the rest of their fight. Cap literally blocked and dodged every one of his hits for the rest of the fight. Whereas Cap landed all but 1 of his IIRC.

What makes me feel even more that they are far apart is skill is the final part of the fight. At 2:46 on the video when Cap knocks him back, right before he does the final kick he totally lowered his guard, with hands down. At that point he wasn't even taking Batroc seriously.

So for me I do believe that Batroc was meant to be extremely skilled. That's clear from the choreography of the scene. I mean they literally hired an MMA fighter to make sure it was right. And they stated he had 36 kill missions and was top of Interpol`s Red Notice. But this fight was really meant to show the audience how skilled Cap had gotten since Avengers IMO. And it's hard to debate for Batroc when I feel his only fight is one that makes someone else look far more skilled.

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#11 Posted by rogueshadow (28151 posts) - - Show Bio

In universe I'm confident that he's pretty high, if we saw him show up in Agents he'd probably give May or Daisy a really hard time before going down, but broken down he doesn't really accomplish much, he's a tertiary villain (equivalent of a villain of the week) meant to give pseudo-threat before Cap casually outskills and wipes the floor with him.

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#12 Posted by Amcu (13536 posts) - - Show Bio
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#13 Posted by The_Magister (11610 posts) - - Show Bio

@rogueshadow: I agree. I think in-universe, he'd give May a good fight like Scarlotti did. He's a bit behind May/Ward/Widow/Bobbi/etc. in cqc; noticeably but not significantly worse.

I feel like that's the intention.

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#14 Posted by TonyMartial (5990 posts) - - Show Bio

@amcu said:
@tonymartial said:

I've seen you rate Batroc highly, I think you may be interested in this @amcu

Thanks for the tag! I'm on mobile right now so I can't get the gifs I want but I'll respond anyways.

I used to rate Batroc highly but I changed my mind. The problem with his feat against Cap is that Cap strooke me as being far more skilled during that fight.

Batroc pressured Cap while Cap was unprepared and than he kept him off balance for some time and landed 1-2 kicks. Now you could say that Batroc landed the last kick on Cap while he was on his feet. But he still seemed off balance and unprepared to me.

The problem I have with using this as justification for him being able to legit tag Cap in a regular fight is the rest of their fight. Cap literally blocked and dodged every one of his hits for the rest of the fight. Whereas Cap landed all but 1 of his IIRC.

What makes me feel even more that they are far apart is skill is the final part of the fight. At 2:46 on the video when Cap knocks him back, right before he does the final kick he totally lowered his guard, with hands down. At that point he wasn't even taking Batroc seriously.

So for me I do believe that Batroc was meant to be extremely skilled. That's clear from the choreography of the scene. I mean they literally hired an MMA fighter to make sure it was right. And they stated he had 36 kill missions and was top of Interpol`s Red Notice. But this fight was really meant to show the audience how skilled Cap had gotten since Avengers IMO. And it's hard to debate for Batroc when I feel his only fight is one that makes someone else look far more skilled.

I really like these counters. Just interested, which street leveller in mcu/cw would you place him around? I think I'd agree with you that Cap is more skilled than hi., but its close. The fact of how long he lasts against him. This fight reminds me of a bit of Daredevil vs Black Sky in a way of how Batroc gets plenty of hits in but gets overwhelmed due to stats (but theres more which defeats him, which I go on about later in this post). I don't see Cap being unprepared for this, we know Cap has great reaction times with the grenade launcher feat later on in the movie and we can just see Cap have enough time to get his shield out to block the first attack from Batroc. I think he should be able fine after that and in correct balance. I think he starts to understand his fighting style/pattern as the fight progresses and his stat advantage over him helps a lot. I'd like to take the skill debate back to Rumlow (as I don't believe its far) . Look at how easily Cap beats Rumlow in the elevator but when Rumlow gets his suit which gives him a stat boost the fight is much longer. I dont think the skill is a large gap at all, if Batroc still landed multiple hits and as jayc quoted, forced him to block as well (we know the SSS gives him a speed advantage too), with stats equalized this would be one hell of a fight. I do see what you mean about the 2:46 part, he was playing around then but I think thats due to his a. Batroc being weaker due to taking plenty of hits from Cap b. Batroc getting a little too cocky with himself when seeing Cap drop his shield c. of course, Steves stats. I may have to disagree with the showing audience how skilled Cap has got. I dont think Cap was purposely supposed to get this strong after Avengers, I think it was all just the Russos vision and them taking the character their own way. I'm fine with the lack of feats thing but I personally don't see it as that much of an issue. We had feats in all of the departments from him, as you provided some strong statements and can scale him with Cap and other characters.

@amcu said:

@tonymartial: Batroc is definitely a tank though.

Yes, watching the Winter Soldier again made me think, hold up this guy is actually really good aha.

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#15 Posted by GateOfBabylon (2888 posts) - - Show Bio

Batroc has very impressive stats for a human but really once Cap got his balance, there really wasn't a contest at all, not even in terms of skill. Whereas in like the case of Daredevil vs Black Sky, Matt was severely outclassing her in terms of skill and only lost due to stats and stats alone.

Problem is people tend to rate Batroc higher than he should be because of one good showing by catching Cap off guard.

Truth is he should be rated one tier lower with Rumlow and Clint.

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#16 Edited by AngelJax (10536 posts) - - Show Bio

I think his durability definitely gets overlooked sometimes. Dude tanked a shield bash which ragdolled him and withstood Steve bullrushing him so hard that he knocked a metal door off of its hinges. Even then, it didn't keep him out for even a full minute.

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#17 Posted by TonyMartial (5990 posts) - - Show Bio

@angeljax said:

I think his durability definitely gets overlooked sometimes. Dude tanked a shield bash which ragdolled him and withstood Steve bullrushing him so hard that he knocked a metal door off of its hinges. Even then, it didn't keep him out for even a full minute.

Yeah, even when he wakes up, he doesn't look injured at all and is still capable of sprinting away.

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#18 Posted by cattlebattle (17003 posts) - - Show Bio

GSP is the GoAT.

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#19 Posted by Amcu (13536 posts) - - Show Bio

@tonymartial:

I really like these counters. Just interested, which street leveller in mcu/cw would you place him around?

It's really hard to rank him. He mainly has statements and the fact that's he's a tank. I can't really think of who I would place him on the same level as. I'm thinking maybe he could give season 1 Matt a good fight. Not sure though.

I think I'd agree with you that Cap is more skilled than hi., but its close. The fact of how long he lasts against him. This fight reminds me of a bit of Daredevil vs Black Sky in a way of how Batroc gets plenty of hits in but gets overwhelmed due to stats (but theres more which defeats him, which I go on about later in this post).

For me I don't think it's quite like Matt's feat. Reason being Matt landed 3-4 punches on Elektra in that fight and he dodged like 12 separate attacks compared to Elektra dodging 2 and landing 2. Most of their fight was Matt dancing around Elektra.

With Batroc it was kinda the opposite with Steve blocking and dodging his attacks.

I don't see Cap being unprepared for this, we know Cap has great reaction times with the grenade launcher feat later on in the movie and we can just see Cap have enough time to get his shield out to block the first attack from Batroc. I think he should be able fine after that and in correct balance.

I see where you're coming from. Cap definitely did react to Batroc's attack. I just don't think he had time to fully brace and prepare himself. If he did that that would imply that Batroc his him harder than Bucky's metal arm which Cap has stopped in its tracks with the shield.

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I think he starts to understand his fighting style/pattern as the fight progresses and his stat advantage over him helps a lot.

I can see this. I used to debate that he did this and that he could do it to other fighters but I kinda stopped when I realized it was very difficult to prove that he did.

But I think the scene does imply that. He seems as if he can analyze an opponents fighting style.

I'd like to take the skill debate back to Rumlow (as I don't believe its far) . Look at how easily Cap beats Rumlow in the elevator but when Rumlow gets his suit which gives him a stat boost the fight is much longer.

I kinda think Rumlow did better in the elevator than Batroc did though. And physicals with the suit weren't equalized. Instead they switched directions. Crossbones was stronger than Cap pressuring him to a wall.

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He also hurt Cap more in one punch than anyone else ever has with a single hit.

And he nearly no sold Cap's punches.

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Also Cap was still dancing around him and seemed more evasive and skillful.

I dont think the skill is a large gap at all, if Batroc still landed multiple hits

As I said before I don't really know if I agree that he could do that in a fight with no circumstances. The disparity between Batroc's initial onslaught and everything after the part where Cap seems to get his flow is too large for me.

and as jayc quoted, forced him to block as well (we know the SSS gives him a speed advantage too), with stats equalized this would be one hell of a fight.

I guess you could make that argument. Cap did block it. Though there are a number of different scenes where Cap tends to just let his opponent lose a hoard of blows at him that he just blocks and dodges. Like this scene here.

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But I can see how this would make Batroc seem as if he is closer to Cap's level. I might reconsider my current rankings of him.

I do see what you mean about the 2:46 part, he was playing around then but I think thats due to his a. Batroc being weaker due to taking plenty of hits from Cap b. Batroc getting a little too cocky with himself when seeing Cap drop his shield c. of course, Steves stats. I may have to disagree with the showing audience how skilled Cap has got. I dont think Cap was purposely supposed to get this strong after Avengers, I think it was all just the Russos vision and them taking the character their own way.

I'm not saying that he necessarily got stronger. My point is that he got more skilled which I don't think anyone disagrees with. IIRC the directors stated numerous times that Steve spent the time after Avengers learning as much martial arts as he could.

I believe that the scene was meant to help the audience realize that Cap is a master combatant. That's why it presents Batroc as being really impressive and with such great agility and skill. And than it has Cap drop his shield and still beat him.

I'm fine with the lack of feats thing but I personally don't see it as that much of an issue. We had feats in all of the departments from him, as you provided some strong statements and can scale him with Cap and other characters.

This is fair.

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#20 Posted by Amcu (13536 posts) - - Show Bio

@tonymartial:

Yes, watching the Winter Soldier again made me think, hold up this guy is actually really good aha.

Yeah his choreography and agility in particular. I can't think of any fighter in the MCU that implements acrobatics much if it all more than he did.

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#21 Posted by RBT (24669 posts) - - Show Bio

He has pretty solid agility and durability. But the fact that he couldn't land a single clean hit on Cap despite getting a drop on him means he isn't that good of a fighter.

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#22 Edited by T6 (1096 posts) - - Show Bio

what if most of captain america's enemies are normal level but cap is a jobber?

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#23 Posted by ANTHP2000 (19267 posts) - - Show Bio

He still legit got stomped tho. This thread proves he's grossly overestimated.

Now, he's in insane shape for a peak human, but he's embrassing skill-wise.

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#24 Posted by deathstroke512 (1936 posts) - - Show Bio

Yes,mcu batroc is hulk level at least,he gave cap a good fight for crying out loud.

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#25 Posted by SocaJunkie (6309 posts) - - Show Bio

Not really.

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#26 Edited by DirtyTree333 (4817 posts) - - Show Bio

Yes. Even if he's deficient in skill feats, his durability and agility more than makes up for that.

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#27 Posted by rogueshadow (28151 posts) - - Show Bio

@rbt said:

He has pretty solid agility and durability. But the fact that he couldn't land a single clean hit on Cap despite getting a drop on him means he isn't that good of a fighter.

I'm pretty sure that he did land one hit.

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#28 Posted by RBT (24669 posts) - - Show Bio

@rbt said:

He has pretty solid agility and durability. But the fact that he couldn't land a single clean hit on Cap despite getting a drop on him means he isn't that good of a fighter.

I'm pretty sure that he did land one hit.

You're right. He did land a couple hits when he ambushed Cap. However, after Cap got his composure, he parried each and every strike Batroc threw his way.

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#29 Posted by Guardiandevil83 (9176 posts) - - Show Bio

@tonymartial: Brock dodged and countered Cap multiple times. If Cap wasn't enhanced Brock would have beat him.

That was without using flashy moves.

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#30 Posted by buildhare (8296 posts) - - Show Bio

He is certainly very good but was greatly outclassed by Cap in every possible aspect.

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#31 Posted by lubub55 (12708 posts) - - Show Bio

No.

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#32 Posted by Lan_Fan (8040 posts) - - Show Bio

I wouldn't put even Cap's skill that high to be used as scaling, to be honest.

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#33 Posted by MAZAHS117 (11132 posts) - - Show Bio

He has a very flashy style I guess, if you like that sort of thing 🤷‍♂️. He was nothing and got embarrassed once Steve got serious iirc.