Iroh Runs the Lightningbending Feat Gauntlet

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cocacolaman

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#1 cocacolaman  Moderator
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Iroh

Iroh has to replicate the given feat exactly as it's done, i.e. same charge up time. If you disagree with the order say which bolts he replicates and doesn't replicate.

  1. Factory Workers (0:47-0:52)
  2. Xu Ping An Kyoshi Torture
  3. Mako Stage Bolt (1:23-1:26)
  4. Iroh II Plane Bolt (0:57-1:00)
  5. Zolt vs Amon (0:00-0:13)
  6. Ozai Eclipse Bolt
  7. Azula Wall Buster
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Aystarr

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He should be able to do all, it would involve some assumptions in some of these but they're not far-fetched.

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viking1205

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The only doubtful one for me is 6. He should be able to do the rest.

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Stratospher

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#5  Edited By Stratospher

Doesn't even make it past one due to having neither instant lightning nor lightning stream. Can probably do 7 without much trouble, as it's the only one that allows him to charge.

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Azronger

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Yeah he replicates everything except Ozai's feat.

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CAV_Tighten

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#7  Edited By CAV_Tighten

Is zuko made of rubber or something lmfao what the heck happened there

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MinhCake

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#8  Edited By MinhCake

1-to-3 (plus 7) I easily see being within Iroh's capabilities, 4 & 5 can be replicated too with some assumptions - but 6 I don't really see being performed exactly as Ozai had.

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chloros

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Is zuko made of rubber or something lmfao what the heck happened there

It's a sub skill firebending technique called lightning redirection. It was developed by Iroh who taught it to Zuko. Zuko used it here to redirect Ozai's attack back at him.

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geekryan

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Probably clears

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@chloros said:

It's a sub skill firebending technique called lightning redirection. It was developed by Iroh who taught it to Zuko. Zuko used it here to redirect Ozai's attack back at him.

Nevermind I just noticed him stretching arm out at the last second to catch the bolt. I though it hit his torso directly before he started bending it lol

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#12 Straight-Fire  Online

Clears.

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Azronger

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Doesn't even make it past one due to having neither instant lightning nor lightning stream. Can probably do 7 without much trouble, as it's the only one that allows him to charge.

Why do you think Iroh does not have instant lightning or lightning stream?

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Stratospher

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#14  Edited By Stratospher

@azronger: Because he never displayed the ability to do so. And because instant lightning was not a thing in canon during AtlA as a show. It was introduced in the comics or LoK (whichever came first), and then was later retroactively added into canon in the Kyoshi novels. I see no reason to assume he has an ability that wasn't even on the creators' mind during the production of the show.

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Azronger

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Because he never displayed the ability to do so.

How far do you take this logic usually? If a character hasn't done X, Y, or Z, but there is other indication they can still accomplish those things, do think it's reasonable to trust those indications, or do you rely only on what your own eyes can see?

And because instant lightning was not a thing in canon during AtlA as a show. It was introduced in the comics or LoK (whichever came first), and then was later retroactively added into canon in the Kyoshi novels. I see no reason to assume he has an ability that wasn't even on the creators' mind during the production of the show.

It was. Ozai fires two instantaneous bolts against Aang in between charged ones. But maybe you think that used to be exclusive to Ozai back in the day and he's better than Iroh - fair enough. But Azula never showcased this ability in the show either - it's something that was retroactively added in the comics, but since she could not have improved or practiced in any way between the end of Book Three and The Search, we know she was capable of it during the show as well. This is what we call retroactive continuity.

You bring up authorial intent here. Do you think that they view Iroh as Azula's inferior? Do you think that if you asked them about lightningbending, they would say that "no, Iroh absolutely cannot shoot lightning as fast as Azula or even Mako, and he would be unqualified to work in a power plant because he cannot hold a prolonged stream"?

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Stratospher

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@azronger:

How far do you take this logic usually? If a character hasn't done X, Y, or Z, but there is other indication they can still accomplish those things, do think it's reasonable to trust those indications, or do you rely only on what your own eyes can see?

It depends. There are things that i believe about certain characters, or at least can see as something that's possible, and there are things that can be argued in a debate and backed up by something. For example, i can see Jeong Jeong knowing how to redirect lightning and being able to do so, because he knows Iroh and could've learned the technique from him. But if there is a debate about a match-up with Jeong Jeong facing something who can generate lightning, and someone argues that he has no answer to it - i can't disagree with that. Because at the end of the day we don't have a reason to believe that he can redirect it. It's just headcanon. Furthermore, Iroh didn't teach Jeong Jeong "true meaning of firebending", something he learned from the dragons. And Jeong Jeong is a character who sees fire as a purely destructive force, and seems to be kinda depressed about it. So Iroh not sharing this knowledge with him, even though it could've drastically improved Jeong Jeong's perspective on things, and may be even alleviated a certain degree of self-loathing JJ seems to have (in my opinion) is kind of a dick move. So why would he teach JJ lightning redirection?

It was. Ozai fires two instantaneous bolts against Aang in between charged ones. But maybe you think that used to be exclusive to Ozai back in the day and he's better than Iroh - fair enough

I do think that Ozai is better at it than Iroh, but for different reasons. I don't see this as instant lightning, because it was not established or explained in any way during the show. Not everything has to be, but lightning bending was kind of a big deal in the story. It seems to me that the animators just didn't bother drawing the charge-up because Ozai was far enough from the "camera" and was so low detailed.

But Azula never showcased this ability in the show either - it's something that was retroactively added in the comics

That's not retro-actively. That's her learning how to do it after the events of the show, in a natural progression sort of way. She learned a lot of lightning-related tricks by the time of the comics that we don't have a reason to believe she could do during the show's events.

but since she could not have improved or practiced in any way between the end of Book Three andThe Search, we know she was capable of it during the show as well

Didn't the Search happen like two years after the show ended? Despite being crazy she was still exceptionally skilled, smart, creative, and was still a perfectionist. And that's a lot of time to think and figure a few things out, especially for someone like her. Remember, Hama realized bloodbending is possible before she started practicing it on rats. Consider also, that Azula had no way of learning how to redirect lightning during the show, had no one to explain to her how to do it, had no way to practice it, and was still able to figure it out on her own after the show's events and do it successfully on her first try. Plus, while this idea might work for Iroh, as he is a pretty passive and peaceful guy, but Azula? Correct me if i'm wrong, but it always seemed to me that it's the way the fandom views these changes - that Azula's skillset improved after the show. Not as things she was always able to do but just randomly wasn't using for no logical reason.

You bring up authorial intent here. Do you think that they view Iroh as Azula's inferior? Do you think that if you asked them about lightningbending, they would say that "no, Iroh absolutely cannot shoot lightning as fast as Azula or even Mako, and he would be unqualified to work in a power plant because he cannot hold a prolonged stream"?

I don't doubt that Iroh can learn or figure out how to do these things. He's a skilled and smart bender himself. But you seem to go under the assumption that he already has, or that he would be able to do it on the spot when faced with the immediate necessity to replicate the feats listed above, which is what i'm questioning. If he was given a genorous amount of time to familiarize himself with the feats, prepare and practice before trying to replicate each of them - i can see him clearing.

If the creators say that he is already able to do all these things and was able the entire time, i'll have to take their word for it. I wouldn't really have a choise. But that would put quite a few things into question. For example, the concept they themselves introduced, about such techniques as lightning bending, metalbending and bloodbending evolving between the shows due to becoming more widespread and more people learning and practicing them. I don't doubt that everything we see in AtlA and LoK was possible all the way back in Wan's time, including the techniques mentioned above. But that's not when they were invented, and they only started to evolve, get developed and becoming more complex after more people learned about them and started practicing them.

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psychoboy4EVA

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#17 psychoboy4EVA  Online

He's got R7, but none of the others

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#18  Edited By Azronger

@stratospher said:

How far do you take this logic usually? If a character hasn't done X, Y, or Z, but there is other indication they can still accomplish those things, do think it's reasonable to trust those indications, or do you rely only on what your own eyes can see?

It depends. There are things that i believe about certain characters, or at least can see as something that's possible, and there are things that can be argued in a debate and backed up by something. For example, i can see Jeong Jeong knowing how to redirect lightning and being able to do so, because he knows Iroh and could've learned the technique from him. But if there is a debate about a match-up with Jeong Jeong facing something who can generate lightning, and someone argues that he has no answer to it - i can't disagree with that. Because at the end of the day we don't have a reason to believe that he can redirect it. It's just headcanon. Furthermore, Iroh didn't teach Jeong Jeong "true meaning of firebending", something he learned from the dragons. And Jeong Jeong is a character who sees fire as a purely destructive force, and seems to be kinda depressed about it. So Iroh not sharing this knowledge with him, even though it could've drastically improved Jeong Jeong's perspective on things, and may be even alleviated a certain degree of self-loathing JJ seems to have (in my opinion) is kind of a dick move. So why would he teach JJ lightning redirection?

Yes, I understand the distinction between headcanon and inference. And unless I'm misunderstanding you, you seem to believe inference can be used in certain cases since you state "there are things that can be argued in a debate and backed up by something." So, why do you think it's not reasonable to infer Iroh can shoot instant lightning or lightning streams?

It was. Ozai fires two instantaneous bolts against Aang in between charged ones. But maybe you think that used to be exclusive to Ozai back in the day and he's better than Iroh - fair enough

I do think that Ozai is better at it than Iroh, but for different reasons. I don't see this as instant lightning, because it was not established or explained in any way during the show. Not everything has to be, but lightning bending was kind of a big deal in the story. It seems to me that the animators just didn't bother drawing the charge-up because Ozai was far enough from the "camera" and was so low detailed.

Instant lightning is never "established or explained in any way" during the comics either prior to its use. Azula just shoots lightning without any charge-up time, and nobody questions it or tries to verbally explain it. It's treated as just as normal as people breathing air, so it seems completely arbitrary to me, as well as a double standard, to require some sort of explicit explanation for Ozai's feats in the show instead of simply accepting that he can shoot lightning instantaneously when no such explanation is given in the comics either, yet you take those feats at face value. How do you know the animators "just didn't bother drawing the charge-up because Ozai was far enough from the 'camera' and was so low detailed"? Do you have some sort of inside information? Or do you merely assume they would for reason cut corners during the series finale and the ultimate battle that everything has been building up to for three seasons despite every other aspect of it being animated with the utmost care and detail? Mike and Bryan stated that JM Animation "almost killed themselves making these two episodes back-to-back, with some of the most complex effects and character animation we've done" and that "they really wanted this to be something special, so they pushed themselves that hard," with animation director Jae Myung saying "this is my last chance to work on Avatar, and I just have to make it the best ever" (source). It's not just the visuals either - the two instant lightning bolts also lack the sizzling sound effect that always accompanies the charge-up, so to me it's very apparent that those two bolts really are fired instantaneously and it's not just a matter of the creators being lazy.

But this is getting off-topic. The crux here is Azula's ability to shoot instant lightning during the show, and Iroh's relation to her in terms of power and skill.

But Azula never showcased this ability in the show either - it's something that was retroactively added in the comics

That's not retro-actively. That's her learning how to do it after the events of the show, in a natural progression sort of way. She learned a lot of lightning-related tricks by the time of the comics that we don't have a reason to believe she could do during the show's events.

but since she could not have improved or practiced in any way between the end of Book Three andThe Search, we know she was capable of it during the show as well

Didn't the Search happen like two years after the show ended? Despite being crazy she was still exceptionally skilled, smart, creative, and was still a perfectionist. And that's a lot of time to think and figure a few things out, especially for someone like her. Remember, Hama realized bloodbending is possible before she started practicing it on rats. Consider also, that Azula had no way of learning how to redirect lightning during the show, had no one to explain to her how to do it, had no way to practice it, and was still able to figure it out on her own after the show's events and do it successfully on her first try. Plus, while this idea might work for Iroh, as he is a pretty passive and peaceful guy, but Azula? Correct me if i'm wrong, but it always seemed to me that it's the way the fandom views these changes - that Azula's skillset improved after the show. Not as things she was always able to do but just randomly wasn't using for no logical reason.

You seem to have forgotten a crucial detail. In between Book Three and The Search, Azula is confined in a straitjacket, unable to move her arms or bend lightning in any way. Yet once she gets released, she showcases instant lightning multiple times. Ergo, since she could not have practiced during her incarceration, she must have been capable of it even during the show despite never using it there. That is retroactive continuity.

Avatar: The Last Airbender - The Promise, Part Three and The Search, Part One

You bring up authorial intent here. Do you think that they view Iroh as Azula's inferior? Do you think that if you asked them about lightningbending, they would say that "no, Iroh absolutely cannot shoot lightning as fast as Azula or even Mako, and he would be unqualified to work in a power plant because he cannot hold a prolonged stream"?

I don't doubt that Iroh can learn or figure out how to do these things. He's a skilled and smart bender himself. But you seem to go under the assumption that he already has, or that he would be able to do it on the spot when faced with the immediate necessity to replicate the feats listed above, which is what i'm questioning. If he was given a genorous amount of time to familiarize himself with the feats, prepare and practice before trying to replicate each of them - i can see him clearing.

If the creators say that he is already able to do all these things and was able the entire time, i'll have to take their word for it. I wouldn't really have a choise. But that would put quite a few things into question. For example, the concept they themselves introduced, about such techniques as lightning bending, metalbending and bloodbending evolving between the shows due to becoming more widespread and more people learning and practicing them. I don't doubt that everything we see in AtlA and LoK was possible all the way back in Wan's time, including the techniques mentioned above. But that's not when they were invented, and they only started to evolve, get developed and becoming more complex after more people learned about them and started practicing them.

You misunderstood my question. I wasn't asking you what you would do if the creators stated Iroh is capable of instant lightning or lightning stream; I was asking you what you believe the creators would say if you asked them. As in, do you think they consider Iroh to inferior to Azula, and do you believe they don't think Iroh is capable of lightning feats she or even Mako can do?

If the purpose behind my question isn't obvious, I'll walk you through my logic step by step:

  1. Azula is capable of instant lightning during the show because The Search retroactively granted her this technique, and it's something she can perform even in a terrible state of mind.
  2. If Iroh is superior to a mentally healthy Azula during the show, then it stands to reason he would likewise be capable of a technique a mentally impaired Azula can pull off seemingly casually.
  3. The only way Iroh is not capable of instant lightning is if he is inferior to not only a healthy Azula, but a lesser bender than even a mentally damaged Azula is.
  4. You brought up authorial intent earlier regarding instant lightning not being a thing during the development of the show. Irrespective of whether or not that is true, it is evident the intent changed with The Search. So we must go with the updated intent regarding the capabilities of lightningbenders like Azula and Iroh during the show.
  5. Now, what do you think the authorial intent behind Azula vs. Iroh is? Do you believe the creators would say Azula is the superior bender between the two? Or do you think they would side with Iroh and confirm he is capable of the same lightningbending techniques as she, and Mako too?

In essence, all I'm asking is, who is the better bender between Iroh, and Azula and Mako in the creators' minds?

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He can probably do everything apart from the Ozai one

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Stratospher

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#20  Edited By Stratospher

@azronger:

So, why do you think it's not reasonable to infer Iroh can shoot instant lightning or lightning streams?

I answered this question already.

Instant lightning isnever"established or explained in any way" during the comics either prior to its use. Azula just shoots lightning without any charge-up time, and nobody questions it or tries to verbally explain it. It's treated as just as normal as people breathing air, so it seems completely arbitrary to me, as well as a double standard, to require some sort of explicit explanation for Ozai's feats in the show instead of simply accepting that he can shoot lightning instantaneously when no such explanation is given in the comics either

A lot of things in the comics are not brought into question even when they should be. Like Azula knowing how to redirect lightning out of nowhere, even though we know she couldn't learn it during the show and didn't have anyone to practice it with, or Zuko shrugging off Azula's charged lightning, even though it's supposed to be deadly. Let's not pretend that expectations to writing and attention to details between the animated series and comics is comparable, or anywhere near each other. Or that lightning in the comics played as big of a role or was as focussed on as in the show.

For the record, i don't doubt Ozai can use instant lightning, i just don't think it's what happened in the scene.

How do you know the animators "just didn't bother drawing the charge-up because Ozai was far enough from the 'camera' and was so low detailed"?

I don't. And never claimed i did. That's why i said "it seems to me".

Mike and Bryan stated that JM Animation"almost killed themselves making these two episodes back-to-back, with some of the most complex effects and character animation we've done"and that"they really wanted this to be something special, so they pushed themselves that hard,"with animation director Jae Myung saying"this is my last chance to work on Avatar, and I just have to make it the best ever"(source)

So because they said that it means that the episodes are perfect or that they couldn't make a mistake or cut some corners and concentrate their effort on actually important scenes? "The most complex effects and character animation we've ever done" has nothing to do with the scene in question, as the characters are, in fact, far away and low detailed. Them believing they did the best job they could doesn't mean there is no room for improvement. I have my issues with these episodes, especially when it comes to writing of specific scenes, but some of them are related to the effects and animations as well.

It's not just the visuals either - the two instant lightning bolts also lack the sizzling sound effect that always accompanies the charge-up

Why would there be an audio effect if there wasn't a visual one?

so to me it's very apparent that those two bolts really are fired instantaneously and it's not just a matter of the creators being lazy

I never said, meant or implied that they were lazy.

You seem to have events mixed up. In between Book Three andThe Search, Azula is confined in a straitjacket, unable to move her arms or bend lightning in any way. Yet once she gets released, she showcases instant lightning multiple times

So which events did i mix up? The search happens two years after the show, which she spends in confinement. That's what i said.

Ergo, since she could not have practiced during her incarceration, she must have been capable of it even during the show despite never using it there. That is retroactive continuity

Also already explained why this is not necessarily true. While we're at it, why do you quote entire paragraphs and even my quotes of your comment? It takes way more space than it needs to, and in doing so you seem to miss certain points i made or replied to.

I was asking you what you believe the creators would say if you asked them. As in, do you think they consider Iroh to inferior to Azula, and do you believe they don't think Iroh is capable of lightning feats her or even Mako can do?

If i asked the creators who is a better bender - they would probably say Iroh. If i asked them whether he is capable of replicating Mako's and comics Azula's feats in comics - they would probably say that he is, which i don't disagree with, and i already stated that i believe he is. But what i think the creators would answer if i asked them specifically about whether the show's Iroh can replicate all these feats on the spot, without any preparations, would entirely depend on whether you are right about Azula or not. Which is what it all boils down to, and which is where we happen to disagree with each other. Because if you are right about it - then sure, i don't see why Iroh wouldn't be able to replicate at least some of these feats, if not all of them. But if she advanced her lightning skills after the show, i don't see a reason to assume Iroh was able to do all these things the entire time.

Correct me if i'm wrong, but you seem to think that if a bender is superior to someone else in general, that means that they are superior in everything. Which i also disagree with. Because we know for a fact that it's not how it works. For example, there is a number of characters superior to Ming Hua, but no one matches her skill with the water arms technique. Or Kya being the second best healer in the world despite a whole list of waterbenders who are stronger and more skilled. So even if Azula did know all these skills during the show, i don't see a problem in Iroh being a generally superior and more skilled firebender compared to her, not to mention Mako, while the latter two having a more advanced and versatile skillset with lightning. It's a matter of dedicating enough time, effort and practice to specific techniques. Which we have every reason to believe Azula did, and not so much when it comes to Iroh, who never was a perfectionist, or as destructive, lethal and driven by power.

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psychoboy4EVA

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#21 psychoboy4EVA  Online

@stratospher:

I have my issues with these episodes, especially when it comes to writing of specific scenes, but some of them are related to the effects and animations as well.

Such as? Particularly curious with regards to the effects and animation.

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Stratospher

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#22  Edited By Stratospher

Such as? Particularly curious with regards to the effects and animation.

They would mostly be considered nitpicks, i guess. Like, how did Zuko's attack manage to trip Azula, even though she seemingly blocked it. How Sokka managed to survive the situation when he was holding Toph. One soldier's fireblast immediately got redirected upwards the moment he got hit in the helmet with the boomerang, the second soldier's fireblast didn't get redirected when the platform under him got cut but he released his fireblast before that happened and it wasn't going to hit Sokka anyway, the guy missed from a few meters, despite the fact that he should've had comet scale (also apparently the platform getting cut under his feet put him to sleep). Stuff like that. It's not that the animation itself is bad, but it sometimes lacks either logic or consistency. Or, in Azula's case mentioned above, clarity.