@happylife1996: same as it has been. he has been mentioned once in JL! dark 2018 swamp thing said a remark i dont remember what an etrigan told him to take it up with the presence. an according to the new lucifer series he is alive an well his true form is literal non existence aka his light, an that all spawned from him, he still made lucifer as his shadow to give his light definition an he is still credited for creating all the worlds
@y3kthunder: Evidently Vertigo has its own canon. What I want to understand is his position in the actual DC where Perpetua exists. Is he an underdog to her?
@happylife1996: ah an thats in where all the trouble lies my dear boy. as of recent under strict dcu titles he was only mentioned in the jl dark 2018 but his position wasnt really stated, an previously to that was in new 52 stranger an his position was that he was in fact the creator of the multiverse which going strictly by that, one could say that he is the creator of the current multiverse however thats simply assumption as his position to perpetua hasnt been explained now to the complex part. the sandman universe and the rest of black label. according to dc official site black label is the imprint in which holds creator owned stories is set outside of the dcu continuity. stated multiple times an to some stories this is quite obvious that theyre none canon to the main dcu. now what of the sandman? if you go strictly by what dc has said an writers like holly black it should be indeed a separate thing from the main dcu. however theyre storys that are certainly connected such as the spectre series of 1990s an i believe the demon of the 1990s and dc recognized the change of dream to daniel hall an how multiple dc characters showed up to dreams funeral, then again the spectre series of 1990s throws certain questions of careys run of canonisity into question, which becomes more complex because according to watters the current lucifer writer which is confirmed canon to the sandman the previous lucifer runs are in fact canon so theyre definately canon stories between the dcu an black label its up to you whiter or not you wish to consider them separate.
@happylife1996: ah an thats in where all the trouble lies my dear boy. as of recent under strict dcu titles he was only mentioned in the jl dark 2018 but his position wasnt really stated, an previously to that was in new 52 stranger an his position was that he was in fact the creator of the multiverse which going strictly by that, one could say that he is the creator of the current multiverse however thats simply assumption as his position to perpetua hasnt been explained now to the complex part. the sandman universe and the rest of black label. according to dc official site black label is the imprint in which holds creator owned stories is set outside of the dcu continuity. stated multiple times an to some stories this is quite obvious that theyre none canon to the main dcu. now what of the sandman? if you go strictly by what dc has said an writers like holly black it should be indeed a separate thing from the main dcu. however theyre storys that are certainly connected such as the spectre series of 1990s an i believe the demon of the 1990s then again the spectre series of 1990s throws certain questions of careys run of canonisity into question, which becomes more complex because according to watters the current lucifer writer which is confirmed canon to the sandman the previous lucifer runs are in fact canon so theyre definately canon stories between the dcu an black label its up to you whiter or not you wish to consider them separate.
primal monitor, source, overvoid and presence are all the same but in different forms
There are conflicting opinions regarding this.
That's nothing more than a baseless claim. But I guess whenever a character stronger than Presence appears, we just have to make them the same to keep him at no. 1
Is there even evidence that he exists at the moment in DC where Perpetua's event is taking place? I don't see how he can co-exist with her. He's supposed to be the God creator in his very essence. There can't be another creator.
The Presence is the God of the comic story, not the comic page. The Presence is Ink on the page, Monitors are supposed to be from the Page itself. More so, the DCU is just one Multiverse in the Overvoid. The Overvoid contains all comic universes and multiverses and the Presence is not the creator of all of them, he is just the one Alpha Deity of the DCU and Vertigo Multiverse. The Presence is not the Creator of all the other multiverses.
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Is there evidence? Sure, if the Spectre is around, then so is Yahwe. But remember, The Dark Multiverse Spectre is dead as a doornail, which can only happen when The Presence gets killed first. So, maybe there is a Dark Multiverse Presence too. It was setup in Final Crisis Revelations that the Spectre and Radiant cannot perish until Yahwe does.
Is there even evidence that he exists at the moment in DC where Perpetua's event is taking place? I don't see how he can co-exist with her. He's supposed to be the God creator in his very essence. There can't be another creator.
If they retconned the Presence so that he is not the creator, why not retcon the Spectre as well so that he can exist and die independently without the Presence? It would only be an extension to the limitations they're putting on the Presence role in the multiverse.
But having Perpetua and her cosmos existing in the void separate from the Presence is the only thing that I can agree with, because their stories, even though Perpetua's story was copied from the Presence story, they greatly conflict with each other, the only difference between them is that the Presence was omnipotent and the supreme being when he was the creator, Perpetua is not, as she was stomped and sealed by the judges of the source.
@happylife1996: just a quick thing if i was was you id not listen to that guy whatsoever. dc isnt dragon ball beating the spectre which has happened before isnt gonna beat the presence, what he suggestes by that is that the spectre is the presence for how can beating someone who isnt him actually beat him unless they were him. also there is 0 evidence that hecate is more powerful that him. an while ill not do it yet ill be making a RT about him to clear up quite a bit of nonsense about him. im mean literally from the first 2 scans i gave you impy that he is the infinite nothingness that predates everything. then you have scans of him creating the silver city to scans that state all pantheons an the new gods are mere fragments of himself to again he is the void beyond all voids that encompasses an surrounds an surpasses everything an anything in the multiverse that when everyone tears away there make theyre all the creator now these are just some of what you will see an after im done i hope you recognize how silly there claims are now this all being said i truly cannot tell you what to do but i hope youll do the right thing
All I know is overvoid is the white paper the story takes place on. A speck within the overvoid is all of DC creation. I always viewed Perpetua and the Presence as existing within that speck.
The problem is what me and another user (MichaelJulius) agreed upon, is that DC hasn't done much to explain the hierarchy order of their characters in recent years. Perpetua is from a place outside of the DC Multiverse, and The Presence was only the God of the original DC Multiverse. Does that mean that Perpetua is greater than The Presence because she is outside of the Multiverse (his creation)? Or did The Presence actually create the DC Megaverse and not just the DC Multiverse? The answer is unclear.
Presence is a denizen of the Sphere of Gods shaped by the beliefs of humanity like all the beings in the Sphere. He's definitely more powerful than most of them since he is rooted in more belief. The beliefs that spawned him are now just more solidified as the Collective Unconscious which is Hecates domain in DC.
Meaning The Presence is below Hecate, Upside Downman, the 6th dimension, and a lot of other things in Snyders cosmology. Perpetua should far outclass the Presence. This video(despite what you might think of the creator) does a good job at debunking all the Presence nonsense and establishing his position in the cosmology. He's not the supreme being in DC and he honestly probably never was.
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I also recommend you read Justice League Dark(2018) if you want to understand more about the Sphere of Gods and the Presences relationship to it, since he was mentioned by Etrigan as one of those in lockdown against the Otherkind.
The Presence is below Hecate, Upside Downman, the 6th dimension, and a lot of other things in Snyders cosmology. Perpetua should far outclass the Presence.
Nothing indicates this, it's all speculation. The Presence might be another creator like Perpetua. It's not clear yet in the current cosmology. Maybe it will be explained more in Death Metal. Also The Source seems to be above all at this point but even there we need more information off.
@enigma22: He's in the Sphere of Gods. That's clear as fuck. IF he wasn't then he wouldn't have been threatened by the Otherkind. The Presence is inferior to everyone beyond the SOG on the hierarchy. Next.
The Presence is also a creator. He made the original DC Multiverse and of course we known him from from The Vertigo Creations. Nothing has been stated in the new continuity that he was downgraded. Scott Snyder wouldn't make it so obvious.
The Presence is below Hecate, Upside Downman, the 6th dimension.
You really need to back this claim up. Nothing so far implies that Hecate >The Presence or the Upside Downman being above him. You can't just make these claims without backing it up with some proper evidence.
Perpetua is still above him no recent statements from overall other sources have stated that the presence is the top dog on the current cosmology which btw follows morrison rules.
Sora and Tony still on the pixie dust train. If I just believe hard enough, it'll come true.
The Presence specifically made Eclipso to keep Hecates attention away from himself because he literally could not stop her. Do comics even matter anymore, or does favoritism truly rule the debate world?
The Presence specifically made Eclipso to keep Hecates attention away from himself because he literally could not stop her.
Source? Why would a (nigh) omnipotent being create another lesser being to stop another being from hurting it? Unless you throw all logic out of the window.
The Presence specifically made Eclipso to keep Hecates attention away from himself because he literally could not stop her.
Source? Why would a (nigh) omnipotent being create another lesser being to stop another being from hurting it? Unless you throw all logic out of the window.
It seems that the new origin for Spectre is that it was created by "Great Powers" (which likely includes The Presence since they call it "a corrupted aspect of God") to negate Hecate's powers in case she became too powerful.
Saga beat me to answering, sorry. Also, certain types of Magic exist and were stated way back even in the early 80s to be a problem for The Presence and his Biblical Hierarchy. The fact of the matter is The Presence knew he could not stop her.
As mentioned already, The Upsidedown Man and Hecate both are more powerful than the things The Presence is terrified of and it happens to be the GEBs home and the things inside of it. During all of this, Perpetua was named the original creator and everyone agreed that the Perpetua problem is supersceding the Hecate problem.
Further, touching the Forger's tools and materials leads you to Mandrakk being called God, and also the book of Limbo agrees with that. IMO, the Presence hardly cracks the top 10 anymore, if that.
The Presence specifically made Eclipso to keep Hecates attention away from himself because he literally could not stop her.
Source? Why would a (nigh) omnipotent being create another lesser being to stop another being from hurting it? Unless you throw all logic out of the window.
Maybe i'm missing something here because i don't really see it yet. It's been a while since i've read The Witching Hour. In the first scan it says "A power to eclipse her own" and the second scan says "Eclipso was created to eat away and negate Hecate's power. She can't stop him alone." Who is the she? That couldn't be The Presence unless it's a Wonder Woman thing where they call the almighty God a 'she'.
Also where is The Spectre in all of this? He is the original spirit of Vengeance. I do remember the parts where she gave her Magic to the different pantheons who were pleading with her. But i don't recall seeing The Presence there. He should be above the pantheons by the way as per original continuity. I know the Otherkind attacked heaven but there was no word about The Presence if i recall correctly. Heaven has been attacked multiple times before while The Presence was buggering off somewhere else. He could even be out of Creation.
I'm speculating here because Scott Snyder did say he wanted to look beyond The Presence. But logically speaking he wouldn't leave such an important part of the DC cosmology and mythos like that. Let alone let Tynion change it. He did elevate The Source though which does have some connection to The Presence. He could be overseeing The Omniverse but that's just a guess for now. I'm waiting for Death Metal for more definite answers.
Maybe i'm missing something here because i don't really see it yet. It's been a while since i've read The Witching Hour.
In the first scan it says "A power to eclipse her own" and the second scan says "Eclipso was created to eat away and negate Hecate's power. She can't stop him alone." Who is the she? That couldn't be The Presence unless it's a Wonder Woman thing where they call the almighty God a 'she'.
Oh no that part wasn't referring to The Presence, but to Wonder Woman being possessed by Eclipso, that's why it says "She can't stop him alone"..
Also where is The Spectre in all of this? He is the original spirit of Vengeance.
No idea, The Spectre is kinda being ignored currently which is a shame, but it could be that he is occupied with The Quintessence.
I do remember the parts where she gave her Magic to the different pantheons who were pleading with her. But i don't recall seeing The Presence there.
I mean many gods were not seem there tbh, its mainly the Greek Pantheon. Its more of a matter of "he could have been one of them", which we don't have a confirmation yet so its more speculative.
He should be above the pantheons by the way as per original continuity. I know the Otherkind attacked heaven but there was no word about The Presence if i recall correctly. Heaven has been attacked multiple times before while The Presence was buggering off somewhere else. He could even be out of Creation.
I mean, there is one line that implies The Presence is involved in ordering the close of the Gates to Heaven.
Etrigan went to the Silver City to try to gain their favor, but after that Jason Blood (Etrigan) says that both Hell and Heaven have closed their gates to Earth. Swamp Thing says: " This is unnaceptable"?
Etrigan responds his complaints by saying "Strong words from an elemental spirit. Perhaps you would let The Presence hear it".
This implies the Presence might have been involved in the lockdown, thou neither he or his angels have really done anything yet.
I'm speculating here because Scott Snyder did say he wanted to look beyond The Presence. But logically speaking he wouldn't leave such an important part of the DC cosmology and mythos like that. Let alone let Tynion change it. He did elevate The Source though which does have some connection to The Presence. He could be overseeing The Omniverse but that's just a guess for now. I'm waiting for Death Metal for more definite answers.
Yeah, I hope Death Metal clears up all the doubts we have.
Here’s the next problem. Mr. Mxy here is shown unraveling reality down to the white paper and beyond, but isn‘t the white paper the Overmonitor? This implies Mxy>Overmonitor but Perpetua being 6th dimensional is above Mxy. Wouldn’t this imply Perpetua is above the Overmonitor??
No, it doens't mean Mxy has more power than the Overvoid. He can erase something down to the Overvoid and edit the literal comic he is inside of. Mxy knows the DCU is a comic and plays with the canon and continuity often. Being able to unmake the DCU down from the ink means he is just as we always knew...easily one of the most powerful beings in the entire DCU. But as mentioned, Mxy is the first to say he is inferior to the Monitors.
My question to others is do we think The Presence, Lucifer and any other Biblical DCU hierarchy character can also undraw the literal comic they are in? The answer I'm afraid, is IMO a no. They cannot.
Here’s the next problem. Mr. Mxy here is shown unraveling reality down to the white paper and beyond, but isn‘t the white paper the Overmonitor? This implies Mxy>Overmonitor but Perpetua being 6th dimensional is above Mxy. Wouldn’t this imply Perpetua is above the Overmonitor??
there is a panel where Perpetua states that she created her sons FROM the Overvoid. I’m starting to think we should see the Overvoid not as a person or intelligence but as a cosmic force that can be manipulated by beings over 4D.
Where the Presence falls in could have something to do with the Judges of the Source. Totally forgot most of this stuff but going back through the current JL run I’m noticing just how low on the food chain Perpetua is. The panel I posted in post# 37 shows there are others “Brothers and Sisters” like Perpetua, each one residing over/creating their own multiverses within an infinite omniverse. Since Perpetua is stated to be the one to be responsible for the DC Multiverse (including the dark, antimatter and positive) then it seems within reason that her brothers and sisters are the gods of other comic continuities. For example someone like Man of Miracles from Image. Could this mean the Presence is simply the god of the Vertigo continuity and brother to Perpetua?
Then there are these panels that contend with the idea of Perpetua being the highest in the cosmic hierarchy. Her and others like her (those brothers and sisters) seem to be inferior to the Judges of the Source. They sent what Perpetua’s sons refer to as “the Raptor” who effortlessly manhandles Perpetua and locks her away. She tells the Raptor “tell your MASTERS I will escape!“ Who could possibly be master to a being who can manhandle Perpetua? And since its MASTERS plural that means there are multiple beings above Perpetua. Could these masters be the angels that work for the Presence? Or, as I said earlier is the Presence simply just a creator to another continuity (albeit a close continuity that can interact with DC) similar to Perpetua therefore Perpetua’s brother? I’m starting to think the latter. Regardless I no longer feel the Overvoid should be part of the argument as both Mxy and Perpetua are able to affect it if not outright manipulate it
Heck ya it can! Absolutely, a bunch of us theorized this a while back that the Presence is just another Creator and it is certainly possible that Creators squat in some other Creators houses.
Perpetua making the DCU Multiverse and The Presence sliding on in because she was gone is a valid theory. And...if Countdown had its own way, it likely was the actual way things were going to end up. As Monitors called The Source "The Prime Monitor". The Presence can absolutely be another Monitor like Perpetua, or whatever she is. The Source might have been the thing that gives beings like Perpetua and The Presence their power. Notice most of the Creators are all P names: Perpetua, Presence Pralaya (the big three)
All a valid theory, yep. As for the Overvoid being controlled, it absolutely is and by Nil Monitors who call themselves Masters of the Overvoid too. But, I think the Overvoid is just naive to it and doens't care, lets them do what they want. I would never call the Overvoid lesser beings than others who are able to use it for whatever purposes they are able to.
there is a panel where Perpetua states that she created her sons FROM the Overvoid. I’m starting to think we should see the Overvoid not as a person or intelligence but as a cosmic force that can be manipulated by beings over 4D.
Where the Presence falls in could have something to do with the Judges of the Source. Totally forgot most of this stuff but going back through the current JL run I’m noticing just how low on the food chain Perpetua is. The panel I posted in post# 37 shows there are others “Brothers and Sisters” like Perpetua, each one residing over/creating their own multiverses within an infinite omniverse. Since Perpetua is stated to be the one to be responsible for the DC Multiverse (including the dark, antimatter and positive) then it seems within reason that her brothers and sisters are the gods of other comic continuities. For example someone like Man of Miracles from Image. Could this mean the Presence is simply the god of the Vertigo continuity and brother to Perpetua?
Then there are these panels that contend with the idea of Perpetua being the highest in the cosmic hierarchy. Her and others like her (those brothers and sisters) seem to be inferior to the Judges of the Source. They sent what Perpetua’s sons refer to as “the Raptor” who effortlessly manhandles Perpetua and locks her away. She tells the Raptor “tell your MASTERS I will escape!“ Who could possibly be master to a being who can manhandle Perpetua? And since its MASTERS plural that means there are multiple beings above Perpetua. Could these masters be the angels that work for the Presence? Or, as I said earlier is the Presence simply just a creator to another continuity (albeit a close continuity that can interact with DC) similar to Perpetua therefore Perpetua’s brother? I’m starting to think the latter. Regardless I no longer feel the Overvoid should be part of the argument as both Mxy and Perpetua are able to affect it if not outright manipulate it
@michaeljulius: any theories on who the Judges of the Source are or the cosmic Raptor? If you’re right about the Presence then we have yet to see anyone in the DC cosmic hierarchy higher than the judges.
IMO it should be Nil Monitors because they are masters of the overvoid and because they oversaw the flaw. Perpetua using Overvoid to make the monitor sons to me is proof the source is out in the overvoid just as the cosmic map shows, and Nil was out there too. IMO the unknowable was Nil, which makes the judges the Nil Monitors who were meta and oversaw dcu canon and continuity.
@michaeljulius: any theories on who the Judges of the Source are or the cosmic Raptor? If you’re right about the Presence then we have yet to see anyone in the DC cosmic hierarchy higher than the judges.
IMO it should be Nil Monitors because they are masters of the overvoid and because they oversaw the flaw. Perpetua using Overvoid to make the monitor sons to me is proof the source is out in the overvoid just as the cosmic map shows, and Nil was out there too. IMO the unknowable was Nil, which makes the judges the Nil Monitors who were meta and oversaw dcu canon and continuity.
@michaeljulius: any theories on who the Judges of the Source are or the cosmic Raptor? If you’re right about the Presence then we have yet to see anyone in the DC cosmic hierarchy higher than the judges.
Forgive my ignorance b/c I haven’t read Countdown, but isn’t it implied that Nil and the other Monitors are the descendants/subordinate to Mar Novu? I was under the impression the 3 Monitor brothers (Mar Novu, Alpheus, and Mobius) were the first of the monitors and all other monitors came from them. I recall a scan can’t find it now where the Monitors dimension is below the source wall in the hierarchy. If Perpetua was what was behind the source wall then would not all Monitors, including the Nil Monitors be beneath her?
Just a side point the current JL comic calls Perpetua a “Super Celestial” so imo it goes Judges>Cosmic Raptor>Super Celestials(Perpetua, Presence etc)>3 Monitor brothers>Monitors>*Overvoid (this ones starred b/c I feel it is more neutral and passive and can’t really do anything of its own accord, but can be manipulated)>5D beings. From your perspective Nil Monitors are at the very top? Guess I should read Countdown
IMO it should be Nil Monitors because they are masters of the overvoid and because they oversaw the flaw. Perpetua using Overvoid to make the monitor sons to me is proof the source is out in the overvoid just as the cosmic map shows, and Nil was out there too. IMO the unknowable was Nil, which makes the judges the Nil Monitors who were meta and oversaw dcu canon and continuity.
@michaeljulius: any theories on who the Judges of the Source are or the cosmic Raptor? If you’re right about the Presence then we have yet to see anyone in the DC cosmic hierarchy higher than the judges.
Forgive my ignorance b/c I haven’t read Countdown, but isn’t it implied that Nil and the other Monitors are the descendants/subordinate to Mar Novu?
In Countdown and JLA2018, yes. But, Nil was never a place in Countdown and Nil monitors have different origins in Morrison's Final Crisis than they did in Countdown. Countdown issue 2 has an editorial statement that says they know there are continuity issues between Final Crisis and Countdown, and Morrison also addresses this in some interviews.
I was under the impression the 3 Monitor brothers (Mar Novu, Alpheus, and Mobius) were the first of the monitors and all other monitors came from them. I recall a scan can’t find it now where the Monitors dimension is below the source wall in the hierarchy. If Perpetua was what was behind the source wall then would not all Monitors, including the Nil Monitors be beneath her?
Perpetua made the sons, Overvoid made Mandrakk and the other Nil Monitors. Let me show some continuity issues between these two canons. In Countdown and JLA 2018, Mar was the 52 Monitors who then merged back for unknown reasons and reformed the whole piece of him.
In Final Crisis and Multiversity, Grants own canon, Mar and Anti Monitor are noticed by the Overvoid and the first science Monitor, Mandrakk, was brought forth by the Overvoid.
In the original COIE>Countdown>JLA2018, there were only 52 universes and only 52 Monitors. You are going to see some users come here and disagree with all of this, citing their own interpretations any moment.
In Final Crisis, there were Infinite Monitors. Not just 52, as it was stated there were only 52 split pieces of Mar more than a few times. Where as Final Crisis Monitors were infinite and 52 remained AFTER the Crisis events.
Simplified Countdown > JLA2018 = Mar only had 52 pieces.
Final Crisis > Multiversity = Nil Monitors aren't even related to Mar and they had infinite numbers.
Why are they different? Well, they say they are here when they directly showcase the events of the last Crisis and say that only they remembered everything. They directly say that forces beyond these events were at work without them knowing. The Them there is the COIE Monitors Anti Monitor and Monitor. Nil Monitors Monitor the COIE Monitor sons..lol.
More so, Zillo Vallo says her kind are the masters of the Overvoid and COIE have literally no control over the Overvoid what so ever.
Further, it states that Nil Monitors are decendended from the first unknowable Monitor and not Mar. They came from Overvoid. Not mar.
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Just a side point the current JL comic calls Perpetua a “Super Celestial” so imo it goes Judges>Cosmic Raptor>Super Celestials(Perpetua, Presence etc)>3 Monitor brothers>Monitors>*Overvoid (this ones starred b/c I feel it is more neutral and passive and can’t really do anything of its own accord, but can be manipulated)>5D beings. From your perspective Nil Monitors are at the very top? Guess I should read Countdown
Countdown was considered noncanon to the DCU until 2018 when Scott Synder decided to follow that continuity instead of Final Crisis.
Countdown is where things got messy and the DCU forked in continuity the most severely.
Golden Era > Silver Era > COIE > Infinite Crisis > Countdown > Final Crisis > Multiversity > Unexpected > JLA 2018 > Hell Arisen (The reading order)
However, Synder ignored Final Crisis and Multiversity, cut out both series entirely and replaced some of the lore and mythos with his own. Here is a video of him explaining he intended this to be his own new creation mythos that is not part of the classic DC continuity.
Friendly reminder that the whole "comic book page/ink" analogy that Michael is peddling is entirely contained to metaphors that Grant Morrison used in interviews, this is not an accurate description of what Overvoid literally is in DC.
I advise that you not be persuaded by an argument simply because you see images underneath it. Read the images and ask yourself it it's fair to come to the same conclusion.
For example, you would think that an argument about "The Presence" would include more scans that actually mention the presence. Predominantly:
The Presence is no match for Hecate and upsidedown man.
Angels were afraid of the Otherkind, the Presence is never stated as being so. In fact the only reference to "The Presence" in the entire storyline is a one-off remark from Etrigan that has nothing to do with fear or the Otherkind.
"Strong words from an elemental spirit. Perhaps you would let The Presence hear it."
No Otherkind, no fear. Huh.
The Overvoid contains all comic universes and multiverses
Likewise, this notion is completely unsupported by anything inside DC or in any other comic book franchise. This is purely Grant Morrison's private vision which never made it to panel. The Overvoid doesnt contain non-DC properties and is never stated to.
The Dark Multiverse Spectre is dead as a doornail, which can only happen when The Presence gets killed first.
This is completely untrue. The Dark Multiverse Spectre was stated to not be the real spectre.
The Presence specifically made Eclipso to keep Hecates attention away from himself
No evidence for this claim has ever been posted.
No, it doens't mean Mxy has more power than the Overvoid. He can erase something down to the Overvoid and edit the literal comic he is inside of.
Lmao holy shit no. Mxy cannot erase something down to the Overvoid, he can erase reality. The realm he's in during that scene is a regular universe.
IMO the unknowable was Nil, which makes the judges the Nil Monitors who were meta and oversaw dcu canon and continuity.
Nil is not the Unknowable. The Unknowable was past the Source Wall, which Nil was stated to be inside during Multiversity.
Plus, the Monitors of Nil are now understood to simply be aspects of Mar Novu, the original COIE Monitor.
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Further, it states that Nil Monitors are decendended from the first unknowable Monitor and not Mar. They came from Overvoid. Not mar.
Mar Novu himself came from the Overvoid, which means the Monitors are still descendants of the Overvoid.
@deagonx: Just so I’m clear on this. The Monitor/s come from the Overvoid, but Perpetua manipulated the Overvoid to do it. So is the Overvoid inferior to Perpetua?
@deagonx: Just so I’m clear on this. The Monitor/s come from the Overvoid, but Perpetua manipulated the Overvoid to do it. So is the Overvoid inferior to Perpetua?
Well, that relationship is slightly convoluted and unclear.
So, Perpetua said she created her sons from the Overvoid, which includes Monitor (Mar Novu), Anti-Monitor (Mobius), and World Forger (Alpheus).
In JL (2018) 27 they went to Nil, from Final Crisis, and it was revealed that what we know as the "Monitors" plural were just aspects of Mar Novu that splintered after COIE.
Now, is Perpetua necessarily above Overvoid because she was able to take pieces of it and create her sons? Good question, I'm not sure of the answer. The Overvoid as a sentient being has been basically irrelevant outside of Final Crisis, so for all intents and purposes in the current canon it is literally just a void.
We know that Perpetua is inferior to the Judges of the Source, who by definition ought to be inferior to the Source. Grant Morrison envisioned the Overvoid and the Source as being similar or even the same thing, but this seems to have been denied by DC given that they're listed separately on the Map of the Multiverse, meaning they cannot be the same thing.
@firestarlord73194: “Just so I’m clear on this. The Monitor/s come from the Overvoid, but Perpetua manipulated the Overvoid to do it. So is the Overvoid inferior to Perpetua?”
The Monitor brothers were molded into being by Perpetua. They didn't actually exist after Perpetua ripped pieces of the Overvoid. So they would logically come from her instead of the Overvoid which is also supported in the JL series where Perpetua states "you were created from me."
I also wouldn't recommend taking Deagonx's judgement on other people seriously. He is a renowned troll on other sites and is a consistent liar who makes up reasons to deny other peoples arguments while never giving proof. He feeds off bashing others(more specifically Michael) and is a genuine toxic person. So it's better to ignore whatever negative comments he saids about others.
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