How skilled is MCU Winter Soldier/Bucky Barnes?

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DSTREET45

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How skilled do you think Bucky is overall in the MCU in terms of close quarter combat and which fighters do you think he's comparable to in skill?

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He is slightly below MCU Cap and Black Panther skill-wise.

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Stormdriven

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He's a skill-less brute, he's comparable to a child throwing a temper tantrum because he's so full of rage

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#6 rogueshadow  Moderator

I'd say he's supposed to be around Ward level in pure skill, probably a bit better. Just beneath T'challa and Steve, good enough to give them a rough time and thanks to his metal arm, even defeat them if they aren't serious enough.

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#7  Edited By DSTREET45

Continuing from your last post

@rbt said:

@dstreet45:

The only reason Tony got an upper hand was because of his thrusters.

He still got some hits in without using the thrusters which was my point. Tony getting a few hits in doesn't mean he was matching either in H2H.

Cap recovered quickly and put him in a headlock. Bucky never did anything like that.

Because he wasn't in a position to. Tony was already by the wall all Bucky needed to do was keep him there. And as you see from the second gif he's more than capable of dodging Tony, getting behind him and landing several blows before

This gif that you posted is what I'm talking about. Buck landed one hit on Tony while Tony landed two.

Again: "Bucky blocks a punch and lands a hit, Iron Man lands two but Bucky easily blocks the rest, grabs his arm and punches Iron Man in the chest which pushes him back and then he presses his advantage by pinning him to the wall. So sure Iron Man landed a few hits but Bucky easily had the momentum of that part of the fight in his favor. Between the two of them only Bucky was able to dodge and block the attacks so how is Iron Man casually matching Bucky in H2H when he can't avoid/block Bucky's attacks and when a majority of his attacks couldn't get through Bucky's defense?"

And like I said earlier that sequence was similar to a shieldless Cap vs Tony. Iron Man lands a couple of hits but Cap lands a few and puts him in a headloc. Bucky blocked all of the punches after the initial two. You don't think that this takes much skill to to do?

Then Buck used his physical superiority to pin Tony to wall.

Because it was quicker and more simpler to do it that way. That's part of his character as Sebastian Stan said that Bucky is precise and brutal. "He'll kill you with whatever is closest." (Source)

However Bucky having a brutal fighting style doesn't take away from his fighting skill James Young, Sebastain Stan's stunt double and stunt choreographer for Captain America: Winter Soldier made a passing compliment on his skill and listed some of the styles he uses:

Q: You double for Sebastian Stan’s character, The Winter Soldier, in both Captain America: The Winter Soldier, and the upcoming Captain America: Civil War; with the background of the character being in both military, and covert training, what styles did you incorporate into the character?

A: Jeet Kune Do, Boxing, Sambo and some Aikido were bases to Bucky. He’s adaptable, has the tools to deal with nearly any situation. His intelligence is always fun to play with because of how skilled he is. And then there is his arm! (Source).

This means Bucky will do whatever is quickest to end the fight which in this case was pushing him into the wall and attempting to take out the arc reactor.

Exactly. In a short lived fight, Buck had to use his physical superiority at least 4 times to just keep up.

And like I said before not much would've changed if Bucky didn't have that cybernetic arm. He still would've been able to do most of the stuff his cybernetic arm was doing.

It could have. The final fight on helicarrier is a dead giveaway of skill difference between two.

No it isn't. Not only are you mismatching the sequence of events but you're also missing content on why Cap was able to pin him and dislocate his arm in the first place.

Cap was shot twice, IIRC,

Cap was barely wounded as the one bullet pretty much scratched the skin. Not really much of a factor. The only other times he was shot was at the end of the fight so it wasn't a factor in their fight.

was fulfilling a side mission,

Not a factor big factor IMO considering Cap knew that he had to get pass to complete it and pretty much laid his full attention on Bucky each time they faced off in that fight.

was weaker than Buck and still managed to dislocate his arm and them choke him out. That's not just a small skill difference. The gap is quite wide here.

Cap is only weaker than the cybernetic arm. The arm he dislocated (I'm not even sure that it was completely dislocated given that he was fine using it later) was Bucky's regular arm which isn't stronger than Cap. And the only reason Cap got into that position in the first place was because Bucky dived on the floor to go get the chip which created an opening for Cap.

No Caption Provided

Seriously if the skill gap was massive enough to the point where Cap could straight up pin Bucky and dislocate his arm despite Bucky's "strength advantage" why couldn't he have done it earlier?

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Going by feats, Clint is probably the best h2h combatant in MCU movies. Buck is below Cap by a decent margin and T'Challa by a bigger margin.

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He's an unskilled brute.

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Seriously though, it depends on his mindset.

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@rbt said:

Going by feats, Clint is probably the best h2h combatant in MCU movies. Buck is below Cap by a decent margin and T'Challa by a bigger margin.

But... He was beaten by Black Widow.

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Below Arrow fodder level.

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@lubub55 said:
@rbt said:

Going by feats, Clint is probably the best h2h combatant in MCU movies. Buck is below Cap by a decent margin and T'Challa by a bigger margin.

But... He was beaten by Black Widow.

There first fight. Its possible that Clint either improved by the time of civil war due to experience or that he was hindered due to mind control. In civil war Clint did out skill Widow and was only going to lose because he held back according to scarlet witch.

At worst he is tied with Widow from strictly skill stand point. A case can be made for Widow being able to take a majority on him due to being more ruthless.

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@jashro44 said:
@lubub55 said:
@rbt said:

Going by feats, Clint is probably the best h2h combatant in MCU movies. Buck is below Cap by a decent margin and T'Challa by a bigger margin.

But... He was beaten by Black Widow.

There first fight. Its possible that Clint either improved by the time of civil war due to experience or that he was hindered due to mind control. In civil war Clint did out skill Widow and was only going to lose because he held back according to scarlet witch.

At worst he is tied with Widow from strictly skill stand point. A case can be made for Widow being able to take a majority on him due to being more ruthless.

Why would that make him better than Cap or Black Panther though?

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It is hard to judge his skill because he is superhuman and that gets him out of most situations. I don't think he is all that skilled though. Despite having massive weapons advantage like guns, grenades and knives he still was not able to beat Captain America. He did much worse against Spiderman than Cap did as well. It is fair to say Cap is a good amount more skilled than him. And Black Panther is clearly more skilled as well since he always beat Bucky. Bucky can compete with them so he isn't massively less skilled but there is a clear, albeit not that large, gap.

Bucky also only ever defeats Black Widow by using his super strength, throwing her into a car or choking her with his metal arm. I think she is a little more skilled than him as well, which would mean Hawkeye likely is too.

Overall I'd rank him below Cap and BP, around the same level as BW and Hawkeye.

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Gotoucanario

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#19  Edited By Gotoucanario

He's a skill-less brute, he's comparable to a child throwing a temper tantrum because he's so full of rage

.

Seriously though, I would put him around or below BW but he makes up in stats.

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jashro44

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@jayc1324: I never said Clint was more skilled than either.

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@jayc1324 said:

It is hard to judge his skill because he is superhuman and that gets him out of most situations. I don't think he is all that skilled though. Despite having massive weapons advantage like guns, grenades and knives he still was not able to beat Captain America. He did much worse against Spiderman than Cap did as well. It is fair to say Cap is a good amount more skilled than him. And Black Panther is clearly more skilled as well since he always beat Bucky. Bucky can compete with them so he isn't massively less skilled but there is a clear, albeit not that large, gap.

Bucky also only ever defeats Black Widow by using his super strength, throwing her into a car or choking her with his metal arm. I think she is a little more skilled than him as well, which would mean Hawkeye likely is too.

Overall I'd rank him below Cap and BP, around the same level as BW and Hawkeye.

I can get behind this. All though I might rank hawkeye and Widow a bit higher since as you said he mostly strong arms Widow when they fight.

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@jashro44: @jayc1324: The only reason he's abused his physical advantage over Widow was situational more than anything. Their first encounter, she used a garrote and wrapped his biological arm, forcing him to toss her with his metal arm, whereafter she ran. The second time, after he tossed Sharon, she wrapped him up in a hold and he tried to choke her out, taking he most effective course he could.

I'd say his "fights" with Natasha are hardly indicative of what he's capable of as far as martial arts proficiency is concerned.

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@jashro44: @jayc1324: The only reason he's abused his physical advantage over Widow was situational more than anything. Their first encounter, she used a garrote and wrapped his biological arm, forcing him to toss her with his metal arm, whereafter she ran. The second time, after he tossed Sharon, she wrapped him up in a hold and he tried to choke her out, taking he most effective course he could.

I'd say his "fights" with Natasha are hardly indicative of what he's capable of as far as martial arts proficiency is concerned.

That might be true but it doesn't really do him much favors.

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@rbt said:

Going by feats, Clint is probably the best h2h combatant in MCU movies. Buck is below Cap by a decent margin and T'Challa by a bigger margin.

Why do you say that ??

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@jashro44: @jayc1324: The only reason he's abused his physical advantage over Widow was situational more than anything. Their first encounter, she used a garrote and wrapped his biological arm, forcing him to toss her with his metal arm, whereafter she ran. The second time, after he tossed Sharon, she wrapped him up in a hold and he tried to choke her out, taking he most effective course he could.

I'd say his "fights" with Natasha are hardly indicative of what he's capable of as far as martial arts proficiency is concerned.

I agree with this.

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#26  Edited By Stormdriven

@jashro44: Sure, but I don't think it really hurts his case. Natasha knew she wouldn't be able to take him in a head to head confrontation, so he's never had one against her.

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I don't see him as that skilled within his verse. He relies on stats a lot and was clearly less skilled than Black Widow. Only thing is it's a little hard to picture him as significantly less skilled than Cap given he can't even compete with Cap's stats outside his metal arm but still does decently, although based on Civil War he's also a good bit less skilled than Cap so there's not much to justify him doing anything to Steve anymore.

I consider him more skilled than Punisher, Elektra, Diamondback and Colleen though.

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@jashro44: Sure, but I don't honk it really hurts his case. Natasha knew she wouldn't be able to take him in a head to head confrontation, so he's never had one against her.

Well where does that leave him? I still don't see evidence he is more skilled than Widow.

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#29  Edited By Stormdriven

@jashro44: I never said he was, just that his fights against her are poor indicators of where he is/should be, since they weren't facing each other head to head. His only real showings are going to be against T'Challa, Steve, and Tony.

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@stormdriven said:

@jashro44: @jayc1324: The only reason he's abused his physical advantage over Widow was situational more than anything. Their first encounter, she used a garrote and wrapped his biological arm, forcing him to toss her with his metal arm, whereafter she ran. The second time, after he tossed Sharon, she wrapped him up in a hold and he tried to choke her out, taking he most effective course he could.

I'd say his "fights" with Natasha are hardly indicative of what he's capable of as far as martial arts proficiency is concerned.

I agree with this.

Same.

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@rbt said:

Going by feats, Clint is probably the best h2h combatant in MCU movies. Buck is below Cap by a decent margin and T'Challa by a bigger margin.

Why do you say that ??

Clint and BP fight in Civil war where Clint gets the advantage in the fight between him and BP. Clint outmatches him in the fight. BP uses his claws to get himself out the situation. Clint also is able to take down Widow while pulling his attacks. He is up there in h2h skill. Clint is seen as the best shield agent. RBT's claim has support under it.

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@thor_parker82 said:
@rbt said:

Going by feats, Clint is probably the best h2h combatant in MCU movies. Buck is below Cap by a decent margin and T'Challa by a bigger margin.

Why do you say that ??

Clint and BP fight in Civil war where Clint gets the advantage in the fight between him and BP. Clint outmatches him in the fight. BP uses his claws to get himself out the situation. Clint also is able to take down Widow while pulling his attacks. He is up there in h2h skill. Clint is seen as the best shield agent. RBT's claim has support under it.

Clint did not have an advantage against Panther, the movie clearly showed us that Panther was above Clint.

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@superhero24 said:
@thor_parker82 said:
@rbt said:

Going by feats, Clint is probably the best h2h combatant in MCU movies. Buck is below Cap by a decent margin and T'Challa by a bigger margin.

Why do you say that ??

Clint and BP fight in Civil war where Clint gets the advantage in the fight between him and BP. Clint outmatches him in the fight. BP uses his claws to get himself out the situation. Clint also is able to take down Widow while pulling his attacks. He is up there in h2h skill. Clint is seen as the best shield agent. RBT's claim has support under it.

Getting BP in a hold does not suddenly mean he is the best fighter, anymore than Batroc landing hits on Cap makes him the best fighter. You can't hold Black Panther using his claws against him but ignore the fact that Clint used his bow to get in that situation in the first place. He uses the bow to get T'Challa in that hold.

The other things such as him being the best SHIELD agent and beating BW are true, but that doesn't make him better than Cap, who can fight people where his physicals don't even matter like Ultron and Iron Man and Loki, or Black Panther who is at least equal to Cap.

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@jayc1324:

ill give you that. Cap has been the only one shown to take on people outside his weight divison. It can also be due to his physicals as well. He is consistently shown to have crazy strength. He lifts up that metal structure on Bucky that could have weighed 10 - 20 tons with bullets wounds weakening him. He pulls the helicopter towards him. Even though he would only be against maybe 1,000 pounds of pressure from the heli taking off, Cap also pulls it back towards him making him feel the full force of the 3,000 lbs. He threw a motocycle hard enough to stop and smash a military car. He moves a truck with a kick. He may be impressive in h2h, but his physicals helped a huge amount with Ultron and Tony. His attacks do little to nothing to Loki, so I don't count him standing up to Loki. Loki was also not trying his haredest.

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@stormdriven: I don't think anyone was saying they were indicators. Just that his showing against widow is unimpressive.

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@jashro44: There are plenty of people saying Bucky is just a brute because of his showings against Widow. And his showing against Widow isn't impressive as far as what, exactly?

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@jashro44: There are plenty of people saying Bucky is just a brute because of his showings against Widow.

As far as I know Nick is the only one who made that claim seriously.

And his showing against Widow isn't impressive as far as what, exactly?

As far as skill goes. That is what we are discussing.

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@jashro44: And that's my point. His fights with Widow aren't showings of skill, meaning they can't make him seem unskilled in the first place. Just because in both instances he didn't show skill, due to situational factors, doesn't make him devoid of it or lacking in any way.

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Honestly, I'd probably put him above Steve in CQC. Each time they fought without the shield, Bucky held the upperhand (and actually beat him in Civil War)

In terms of sheer skill, he's likely Ward level.

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Not as 1/8 as skilled as his 616 counterpart.

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@jashro44: And that's my point. His fights with Widow aren't showings of skill, meaning they can't make him seem unskilled in the first place. Just because in both instances he didn't show skill, due to situational factors, doesn't make him devoid of it or lacking in any way.

OK? I never said that. So why is this directed at me?

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@jashro44 said:
@stormdriven said:

@jashro44: There are plenty of people saying Bucky is just a brute because of his showings against Widow.

As far as I know Nick is the only one who made that claim seriously.

Yeah and I think that he used Bucky's fight against Iron man as the example for that because in some parts of the fight Iron man was performing really well against Bucky on skill.

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@black_arrow: I kinda disagree with that particular argument TBH.

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Winter Soldier is an amazing assassin, but without any weapons, his fighting style is really rough brawling. Accept it, he was totally on par with Tony Stark and always tanks hits without even putting up a guard.

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#45  Edited By buildhare

Winter Soldier is an amazing assassin, but without any weapons, his fighting style is really rough brawling. Accept it, he was totally on par with Tony Stark and always tanks hits without even putting up a guard.

That's complete crap and isn't supported by either the events in the MCU or the production teams from the movies, counter all of this;

Don't get me wrong. I'm on your side that flashy moves and showboating are not indicative of skill. It's all about what works. If you've seen me debating for any Metal Gear character, you know that it's my opinion that an efficient, militaristic style has the potential to curbstomp characters like comic book Batman and Daredevil. So I'm not downplaying Winter Soldier just because his fighting style is military rather than oriental. I'm downplaying him because, regardless of fighting style, he just isn't a master of hand-to-hand combat.

Okay.

He's the world's most dangerous assassin, but that involves the use of weapons and gear. He's been trained to proficiency with virtually every type of weapon imaginable, including duel-wielding, sniping, and heavy explosives, he's a master of stealth, tactics, and even with all of that on his resume, he still had time to master knife fighting. He's way higher on the food chain than Matt Murdock, Matt Murdock can only solve situations that involve his bare fists, he'd never be able to operate on the global-scale that Winter Soldier is capable of.

Not much to debate here but it stands to reason his world class status would extend to close combat, he'd be a pretty shit "world's most dangerous assassin" if the first genuinely skilled person he encountered was able to kill him in a melee (which if he's as unskilled as you say, would be a pretty a safe bet if they had any kind of sharp melee weapon).

However, in this scenario, Winter Soldier is nerfed. He is limited to his bare hands, meaning he has access to just a fraction of all the assassin training and experience he's accumulated. Meanwhile, we're comparing him to a guy who has spent nearly two decades in nothing but focused martial arts training, and study of the law. Matt literally did two things his entire life (he also spent time honing his enhanced senses, but that in itself gives a big edge in hand-to-hand combat) so it only makes sense for him to have a significant advantage in his area of expertise.

We know that the Winter Soldier not only trained extensively during his time as a soviet weapon but also sparred due to his scenes with the other Winter Soldiers. Arguing his inferiority to Matt based on experience when he has an advantage of several decades in active wet work and training doesn't make much sense, even if we assume that the vast majority of Bucky's assassination career was from afar.

We can observe this during Bucky's escape scene; He's very brutish and brawly and dependent on his superhuman strength.

A fighter playing to his advantages doesn't make him unskilled, or mean he's dependant on them in a fight. Looking at his fight against Cap;

No Caption Provided

Very clear that he's using the fact he's stronger than Steve to his advantage here. It should also be obvious that even though he is using boxing a fair bit here, it is not at all similar to actual brawlers (i.e Fisk, Brick, Heatwave) and in between punches he is making other manoeuvres in order to get the best follow up hit with his arm. I think you are confusing him playing to his strength and using martial arts that suit that as being brawly, when that's not the case. Sebastian Stan has actually made comment and mentioned this;

It's actually kind of scrappy. The idea was this is the kind of guy who can kill you with a straw. He's precise, he's very specific with what he does. But the idea is that it's messy. He'll use knives… knives were always a big part of the character. There is a lot of knife work in the movie for sure. And overall brutality. He'll kill you with whatever is closest.

Brutality is part of his character, but despite that he's still a very focused fighter. This statement from Stan is in line with Bucky abusing his advantages, not relying on them. Here's one from James Young (stunt choreographer and stunt man for Stan);

Q: You double for Sebastian Stan’s character, The Winter Soldier, in both Captain America: The Winter Soldier, and the upcoming Captain America: Civil War; with the background of the character being in both military, and covert training, what styles did you incorporate into the character?

A: Jeet Kune Do, Boxing, Sambo and some Aikido were bases to Bucky. He’s adaptable, has the tools to deal with nearly any situation. His intelligence is always fun to play with because of how skilled he is. And then there is his arm!

He mentions several martial arts styles Bucky uses, and comments on his high level of skill. Not much to say here, pretty straightforward that from day one he was intended to be a very skilled martial artist.

Natasha and Sharon are both very clearly portrayed as more skillful fighters than him. He gets outmaneuvered, tanks their hits, and only puts them down after finally landing one move which was all that he needed. If he wasn't physically superior and couldn't oneshot them or throw them around, then it appears he wouldn't have stood a chance against either one, even individually.

This is incorrect, only together were they able to briefly have any kind of upper hand.

Carter comes in and throws a kick (Bucky blocks) and another from the other side (Bucky blocks again) and Bucky throws a haymaker (She ducks under it). From that exchange has she been clearly portrayed as a more skilled fighter than him? No. It's entirely unclear at this point.

Widow enters the fight as Bucky is finishing his punch on Carter and uses this as an opportunity to land a flying knee, which she immediately follows up with a punch to the groin. Does this indicate she is clearly more skilled or outmanuovered him? No. She only landed her first hit because;

  1. Bucky had just thrown a punch that left him vulnerable to someone other than Carter (who was forced to duck and in no position to counter attack).
  2. Natasha hadn't previously been in the fight, and entered suddenly from behind Carter. It's fair to assume he did not expect her to fly in with a knee when he was mid punch on Carter.

Neither of those two strikes she lands indicate she is more skilled than he is because both relied on someone else fighting him before she got there to even land them.

Next Carter throws a kick into the currently staggered Barnes. Not much to say here, she hit someone who was staggered and not defending himself at all. Does it mean she's more skilled? Again, no.

Immediately after recovering he grabs Carter and takes her out of the fight. Widow attacks as his back is turned and manages to jump onto his back and get him in a hold. Again, does this mean she is more skilled than he is? No! Every hit they landed in that fight was reliant on surprise and as soon as it ran out they were tagged and put down.

You listed stomping Falcon as a skill feat for Bucky, but all I see is Falcon escaping a very disadvantaged situation (he was blindsided and in a corner, but managed to duck Bucky and push him away), before being felled by a single blow and then getting hurled across the room. That's not extraordinary skill, if anything I'm more impressed by Sam's performance. Granted, the skirmish is so short that we can't really gauge who the better fighter is like we could from Bucky vs Nat and Bucky vs Sharon; but just looking at the facts, Sam was able to avoid a blindside from Bucky and push him away, then Bucky blocked Sam's strike and counterpunched him, knocking all the wind from Sam and allowing Bucky to grab him by the chin and just throw him across the room. At best, they would seem like peers from this.

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Sam dodges his first punch, Bucky predicts and blocks the second and immediately ends the fight. Obviously it wouldn't have been over so quickly without the arm, but it's pretty obvious that Bucky is in the position of power (having landed a solid hit and grasping his opponent) rather than them being peers.

Even Tony Stark was able to repeatedly counter and disarm Bucky, and Tony is a very proficient and underestimated fighter by this point in the timeline so it makes complete sense to me that this could happen, but only if my theory that Bucky isn't quite a master of unarmed martial arts and the Russos didn't want to portray him that way is true. Everything seems consistent; Bucky ends all of these conflicts with one blow. He isn't actually more skilled than any of them.

Tony stunned and deafened Bucky prior to their exchange (Flashbangs apparently last for about five seconds, then afterimages) so it's almost a certainty that Bucky could barely see his opponent or have his sense operating anywhere near normal. Even with that advantage Tony was out-skilled nigh-instantly;

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Bucky has a gun pointed at his head within the first three seconds, it was only through Tony's gear (hand gauntlet) that he wasn't turned into a smear on the wall. After that he manages to dissemble the top part of the gun and hit a surprised Bucky, before getting stomped (that bit lasts another couple of seconds). Claiming that he isn't much more skilled than Tony when he had him dead to rights in the first couple of strikes in their encounter, despite being barely able to see or hear at the time, is kinda ridiculous.

You also listed him overwhelming Cap as a feat of skill, but Cap wasn't even fighting back. He was extremely unprepared and stunned by the situation and didn't adapt fast enough. All he did was try and dodge Bucky's strikes without striking back until Bucky threw him into the elevator, so all this proves is that Bucky is more skilled than Cap when Cap isn't fighting back.

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This shouldn't really need a debunk. Cap was definitely trying to fight back but was unable to because Bucky kept him on the defensive the entire time (which is consistent with their other fights).

we need to draw a distinction between what an armed Bucky has been capable of (very nearly on par with Captain America) and what a completely unarmed Bucky does (can barely even land one hit on Black Panther).

Most of his struggles with BP can be attributed to his mindset in their fights. The first two he was interested in escaping, not fighting. The third he was trying to talk to him and explain himself, which backfired because he didn't appreciate that T'challa was actively trying to kill him and he gave up a perfectly good hold on T'challa because of this.

Even if his mindset wasn't a factor, he was basically even with him in their unarmed, unsuited confrontation during his escape. So using that as an example of unarmed Bucky being unable to compete with unarmed martial artists doesn't work either.

We can also observe this in his battle with Iron Man. Again, you listed this as a feat of Bucky keeping up despite the physical disadvantage, but I see no physical disadvantage. I think a lot of us are suffering from some kind of bias with this fight because of what we assumed before the movie came out. With Iron Man's feats in the past, we all assumed that the schtick of this fight was going to be Bucky and Steve extremely outmatched physically, and utilizing skill and teamwork to bridge the gap. But when the movie came out, that isn't actually what happened

Apart from Bucky's arm no part of the soldiers is physically comparable to the Civil War suit;

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There's only one part of the entire fight I chalk up to PIS, but he was consistently much stronger and more durable than them throughout the encounter. Skill was the reason they stayed in it.

There is no advanced skill here. Every strike has a big windup and is easily telegraphed. There's no tactical dominance displayed, that spinning elbow was a horrible idea when Tony was completely on guard and had plenty of time to counter it. I said before that Tony is a very proficient fighter by this point, but he's still not a master, yet he and Bucky are trading blows completely on par like two boxers.

Unsure how you reached the conclusion there was no skill here. Blocking and countering are good examples of skill, especially when they're just standing and boxing. Iron Man does much better here than he did out of his suit because he's considerably faster than Bucky is.

My point is that when it comes to hand-to-hand combat, Bucky has always been portrayed as very rough, very simple.

It was an intentional choice to make him seem somewhat rough and brutal, as quoted in the interview above. This has never meant that he's not still exceptionally skilled, also quoted in the interview above.

He's a brawler plain and simple, but a monster physically.

He bares absolutely no resemblance to the real brawlers, him being much stronger than them doesn't mean anything.

And Matt grows as a fighter with every episode, by the time they met on the boat, Matt was controlling Frank utterly. Frank was no match for him.

Matt is a better fighter than Frank is, but not by the amount in that scene. You're leaving out the fact that Frank is an emotional wreck at that point, and in absolutely no condition to think clearly let alone fight Daredevil.

Meaning even the Matt of episode 2 was a much better fighter than Captain America, let alone Winter Soldier.

Yet he struggled against John Healy and Rance while Cap stomped Batroc? Come on, there's absolutely no basis for him being more skilled at this point.

Why aren't Punisher's accolades on par with Batroc? Special Forces as a teen, decorated war hero after singlehandedly rescuing his whole unit by killing 38 enemy soldiers at once, wiped out the three biggest gangs in New York City by himself, even Fisk awed at his propensity for violence, people talk about him like some kind of insane boogeyman who was on course to blow up Hell's Kitchen, and he did it alone.

You're the one trying to separate armed Bucky from unarmed Bucky, do exactly the same thing for Frank and it's obvious he's not as good at H2H as Batroc.

In my MCU rankings, I would put Punisher, Batroc, and Winter Soldier all in the same tier as far as unarmed fighting skill goes.

I think Frank v Batroc would be a decent fight, but not due to skill. You'd be incorrect placing Winter Soldier beside them for obvious reasons (if Batroc gets absolutely destroyed by a Cap who is merely playing it cool and not abusing his physicals, how would he be a match at all for TWS, someone who Cap has never decisively beaten let alone stomped).

Matt has the sensory advantage, which is extremely significant. It's how he's been able to defeat his elders like Nobu and the reason he won't be outclassed by Iron Fist in The Defenders. Matt is a superhuman, his power just happens to be a massive boost to fighting skill, people always forget that and act like all his senses do is allow him to hear far away.

It means he can dodge attacks from all sides the same way he would dodge them from the front, it doesn't elevate him to a new tier of mastery over Bucky (although as I think I've said more than once, Matt is more skilled than Bucky).

..and then your argument may start to have some merit beyond low-balling for the sake of low-balling.

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I'd say he's supposed to be around Ward level in pure skill, probably a bit better. Just beneath T'challa and Steve, good enough to give them a rough time and thanks to his metal arm, even defeat them if they aren't serious enough.

Exactly my thoughts. Inject Ward with the SS serum and give him a metal arm, we get Bucky.

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He's an unskilled brute.

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cfrehse

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He is top 3. Him cap and panther could trade wins any day vs eachother.

I think hawkeye is the most skilled avenger

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#49 anthp2000  Moderator  Online

He is not unskilled, he held his own against T'Challa and at least didn't get stomped.

He's below Steve, definitely, and I think it showed that much in their fight at the highway.

He's a tier or two below the most skilled, but he's decent enough.

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Bucky’s Grant Ward level in terms of hand to hand skill.