How skilled is MCU Steve Rodgers (Captain America)?

How skilled do you think Steve is overall in the MCU in terms of close quarter combat and which fighters do you think he's comparable to in skill?

These are the martial arts that Cap knows. Out of all of them, I think he's mastered Boxing, Muay Thai, Taekwondo, Krav Maga, Brazilian Jiu Jitsu, and Judo.

@jayskee: I wouldn't take what that guys says as fact.

One of the most skilled CQC fighters in the MCU (Top 3).

Arguably the best.

Yeah, Wushu and Savate are a stretch. I agree with everything else though.

GodzillaRex, entertaining as he can be, is just another fan giving his opinion and it should not be taken as canon.

He's a punk ass no-name biotch.

Now Steve Rogers on the other hand? That guy's a badass.

Rogers*

@jayskee: Fair enough. Though @brucerogers hit it on the head.

which fighters do you think he's comparable to in skill

Daredevil, T'challa are the main ones I think of.

I don't think he's even close to Daredevil anymore.

I'd say Daredevil has slightly better skill with regards to technical mastery of martial arts while Cap is superior with regards to tactical ability and adapting. I consider them equals overall, you can disagree on that point if you like but there's nothing to support either being far ahead of the other.

If by, there's nothing to support either being far ahead of the other, you mean there's no direct evidence or comparisons available, then that's true. There's also no direct evidence or comparisons available to prove that they're close. All we can do is judge them by their own feats, and with that, Matt was the better fighter by the end of the second episode, when he beat 9 Russians at once, while suffering wounds so extreme, he was at a physical disadvantage against each of them. Even in the comics when Batman or Captain America beat like, 20 guys, that's not all skill, they're able to do that because they're also about 3x faster and stronger than anybody they're facing. But Matt had no physical advantage whatsoever, he had to do that through nothing but pure skill, and he succeeded. There isn't a feat like that in the whole MCU.

Cap is lke 70% stats 30% skill, not near being on the level of Matt skill wise.

No where near the likes of MCU Matt and Danny.

@nickzambuto:

If by, there's nothing to support either being far ahead of the other, you mean there's no direct evidence or comparisons available, then that's true.

There's also no direct evidence or comparisons available to prove that they're close.

I don't understand your reasoning. They both have feats against fodder of varying quality and skilled/powerful opponents, we can gauge where they sit compared to one another.

All we can do is judge them by their own feats, and with that, Matt was the better fighter by the end of the second episode, when he beat 9 Russians at once,

Beating nine people is a good showing but it's hardly enough to be better than Steve. Not only has he done much better before (although yes, he obviously has an advantage Matt doesn't) he has also faced off against foes physically equal or outright superior to himself before and I'm still talking fodder here (Chitauri and Ultron bots both being superhuman physically with a lot of gear).

while suffering wounds so extreme, he was at a physical disadvantage against each of them.

Even while injured he was still clearly faster than them and seemingly stronger, obviously more durable as well. He was hindered by his injuries in that fight but even wounded Daredevil is superior to a normal person in every way.

There isn't a feat like that in the whole MCU.

Iron Fist fighting the Axe-Gang or the Hand students, Punisher fighting prisoners, Cap fighting Ultron bots, Black Widow fighting security guards etc. There are many examples of comparable feats in the MCU with regards to fodder, the feat isn't unique.

@buildhare: Even though Chitauri and Ultron bots are superhumans, Steve was still snapping their necks, cutting off their arms, and ragdolling them about. He was physically superior to each individually, and not only that, he never fought nine at one time. Matt was physically inferior to every thug in that room; he wasn't more durable, he was literally near death. If he was more durable, he didn't need it because he didn't get hit once until the very end. And he certainly wasn't stronger, each of the thugs required repeated bashings before finally staying down. He wasn't physically faster either, he could barely even move properly. He was having trouble walking before the fight began, and was having trouble staying on his feet when the fighting got serious, and most of his movements are sloppy and imperfect when you analyze it. What he had was skill, and skill alone, and that let him outmaneuver everything they threw. It's not just a good feat, it's amazing, and unlike anything Cap, or anybody Cap has fought, has ever performed.

Iron Fist fighting the Axe-Gang or the Hand students, Punisher fighting prisoners, Cap fighting Ultron bots, Black Widow fighting security guards etc. There are many examples of comparable feats in the MCU with regards to fodder, the feat isn't unique.

Iron Fist and Punisher having great feats is counterproductive to your point. Daredevil beat them both, Steve never did. Steve never fought nine Ultron bots at once nor was he crippled with injuries during that scene, same for Black Widow. There are no comparable feats within the MCU to what Matt did, his injuries can not be underestimated. Again, he didn't have to just outmaneuver everybody once or twice and then take them down easily. He was so physically weakened and inferior that each of the thugs required repeated bashings, and the entire time, he was struggling just to stay on his feet from pain and exhaustion, and he had to outmaneuver each of them many times, over and over again perfectly.

I think T'challa will be the better unarmed combatant after his solo, looking at his performance against Bucky, I'm already leaning towards him (BP) on that front, once they entered round two, T'challa whopped Bucky's ass almost instantly, only the superior strength of his arm saves him.

I'd say he's a bit better than Ward and a bit behind Bobbi.

If Killmonger pulls it off against those 8 Wakandan warriors, Black Panther will immediately be a better fighter than Steve.

@nickzambuto:

Even though Chitauri and Ultron bots are superhumans, Steve was still snapping their necks, cutting off their arms, and ragdolling them about. He was physically superior to each individually, and not only that, he never fought nine at one time.

He doesn't have to fight nine at a time because;

1. At no point did Daredevil fight close to that amount, he fought nine people in total over a sustained period.
2. The fodder are superior in every way.

Matt was physically inferior to every thug in that room; he wasn't more durable, he was literally near death. If he was more durable, he didn't need it because he didn't get hit once until the very end.

Daredevil downed them in a few strikes yet the thugs were unable to do the same, he was obviously more durable and it doesn't make sense to argue otherwise given he literally endured more than most of them. Being near death doesn't negate durability entirely.

And he certainly wasn't stronger, each of the thugs required repeated bashings before finally staying down.

Not one shotting them doesn't make them stronger it makes them tough.

He wasn't physically faster either, he could barely even move properly.

Barely moving properly for Daredevil is still faster than a normal person, if he was slower he wouldn't have been able to avoid them for that long even with his skill advantage.

He was having trouble walking before the fight began, and was having trouble staying on his feet when the fighting got serious, and most of his movements are sloppy and imperfect when you analyze it.

I understand he was injured and effected negatively, but you don't seem to understand that that doesn't necessarily mean he's weaker than everyone he faces.

It's not just a good feat, it's amazing, and unlike anything Cap, or anybody Cap has fought, has ever performed.

Just like Daredevil has never hung with mid tiers or stomped skilled superhuman fighters, come off it.

Iron Fist and Punisher having great feats is counterproductive to your point.

Not at all, you said Daredevil's feat is unique, which is demonstrably false.

Daredevil beat them both, Steve never did.

Iron Fist was near even with Matt and he only wrecked Frank while he was emotionally disturbed. Stomping Batroc and later Crossbones are comparable showings of skill.

same for Black Widow.

Every thug Widow faced towered over her, if you're going to keep going on about physical disadvantages consider that the 5' assassin still stomped them all anyway, a lot easier than Matt did.

He was so physically weakened and inferior that each of the thugs required repeated bashings

That's not just because he was weakened, at that point Matt wasn't capable of one shotting fodder as easily as he can now.

Can't wait for this:

And the Dora Milaje should be extremely skilled fodder.

His S.H.I.E.L.D file said he is one of the most dangerous CQC fighter on earth. So yeah, top 3 at the very least

His quite skillful but his stats usually help him out with that. He's no Daredevil, Bruce Lee, Donnie Yen, Jet Li movie skilfull yet nor the Jackie Chan environmental master. But his stats help out. His striking speed is still sort of lacking.

From a pure choreography perspective, Cap is arguably the most skilled fighter in the MCU. He has better technique and a wider variety of styles used compared to Daredevil and Stick. He's pulled off moves that neither of those two have been able to (most likely due to the show's budget) and he's consistently shown better form than both of them. Plus he crushes both when it comes to having a ground game (he's one of the only MCU fighters to consistently take the fight to the ground).

But I do think Matt is a solid tier above Cap when it comes to skill, going by his Defenders feats. Cap generally one shots fodder (look at his fight on the helicarrier, he one shottted something like twenty armored SHIELD soldiers in a row) but his most impressive skill feats are against enemies with MUCH higher stats than him.

He was able to stalemate Ultron Prime and Iron Man, hold his own against Loki and defeat Spider-Man. All of those fighters have EXPONENTIALLY higher stats than Cap and doing well against all of them is a testament to his skill.

However, Matt was able to stalemate Black Sky Elektra multiple times and while the stat gap between them might not be as big as the gap between Cap/Iron Man, it's still significant and is multiplied by the fact that Elektra is much more skilled than Cap's opponents.

Thanks to his performance against Elektra, I'd give Matt the edge against Cap in the pure skill department.

EDIT: Stick as well, who basically stomped Elektra in their brief battle.

Just for some director's notes from various interviews on Cap's skill to give a better idea of their position on it -

"The first film, it makes sense that he’s got that sort of John Sullivan approach to fighting because he was a kid off the street plucked to be a super soldier. Now, he’s trained. He’s trained exhaustively among some of the best people in the world."

"Cap’s been training with modern techniques since The Avengers, like Krav Maga — real-world techniques developed to deal with enemy combatants in close quarters."

"The fighting techniques that we used in this are a mixture of Parkour, Brazilian Ju Jitzu, karate and boxing ... part of bringing the character into modern day is that Steve Rogers has studied and mastered these modern fighting styles and techniques."

"Steve Rogers’ style of fighting also got an upgrade. His fighting style was very 1940s old-school kick and punch but now Rogers has upped his game by mastering modern fighting techniques like Kung Fu, Mixed Martial Arts, Jujitsu and Krav Maga."

Below the most skilled Netflix fighters, Stick, Matt, Danny and probably the Fingers of the Hand and Elektra. Matt was able to fight Elektra for more than a minute and in that time he landed 12 hits while Elektra landed 2 but that's all she needed to leave Matt weak enough so he wasn't in a position that he could defend himself (in fact one well placed hit could knock him out). Compare this to Cap's fight with both Ultron and Iron man, he was able to take a lot of hits by them (11 on his fight agaisnt Iron man) and even go blow to blow with them, Matt could only do that when Elektra started to hold back. She also moves faster than anyone Danny and Coleen have ever seen, which means she moves faster than Danny on his zen mode, she shrugged off all of Matt's hits. So I don't buy the whole the stat gap between Cap and Iron man is not as big as the one between Matt and Elektra, in fact I think that the gap is bigger on Matt and Elektra's case. The main difference is that Elektra is actually really skilled unlike Steve's opponents. So yeah the Netflix guys are better than Cap but Cap is more tactical than any of them which is very good in any fight, it is what allowed him to beat Spider Man.

Wasn't Colleen was the only one who said that? Colleen has never seen Danny in zen-mode.

@rogueshadow: Coleen said that and then Danny said "Yeah, she hit like it too", so yeah he shares that opinion and adds that she hits harder than anybody he has ever faced.

Eh, I guess, that doesn't seem like a definite thing, he seems like he was just agreeing that she was fast as shit. He's only been in zen-mode once, not sure if that would be something he would necessarily think of or say in that situation.

Zen mode is just him being concentrated, I imagine he has been like that in K'un lun, so he probably knows how fast he can fight. I take it as the most casual way of saying that she is super human without stating that she is superhuman, you have one of the most skilled fighters in the world who has lived in a place filled with a masters, saying she is faster than anybody he has ever seen. She also hits harder than any of them.

Fair enough.

Very.

More skilled than DCEU Batman

• Probably the most skilled combatant in MCU movies. Maybe second to Nat. But either way, very high up.
• Doesn't hold a candle to the likes of Matt/Stick/BS/Danny etc.
• More skilled than AoS agents.

Less than characters with the power of Intent

• Less skilled than Nat
• On par with other Main "Super Soldiers" (Black Panther, Winter Soldier, etc.)
• More skilled than Thanos

@boc said:

@boc: Did the previous tag work?

@bladeoffury: ye

@bladeoffury: @boc: @subline: how are Widow and Clint above Steve?

@kryptonianking88: Despite being far weaker physically, Clint lasted for a good while against Black Panther and got him into a hold. Nat > Clint

@kryptonianking88: ^

@bladeoffury: I think it's a bit faulty to put Clint above characters like Cap, Thanos and Thor based off him surviving and having the upper hand for a split second in a fight where BP was holding back. I could see a legitimate case for Natasha though based off her performances against Bucky, but both times she had the element of surprise, so even then...

He's in the top 5 for sure, but below the likes of Black Widow, Hawkeye, and Black Panther.

However, if we take into account the characters from the Netflix shows and Agents of Shield, he'd maybe make the top 10.

@kryptonianking88: BP needed to get through Clint as fast as possible since Bucky was getting away, which is why he extended his claws and slashed at Clint's face. He was clearly willing to mutilate or kill. Imagine a match with two equally skilled fighters, except one of them can one-shot the other, be unfazed by the other's best hits, ragdoll him through the sheer force of his attacks even when they're blocked, and instantly overpower him in a grapple. This match wouldn't last 10 seconds, forget the hold.

@bladeoffury:

BP needed to get through Clint as fast as possible since Bucky was getting away, which is why he extended his claws and slashed at Clint's face. He was clearly willing to mutilate or kill.

He probably would have stopped his claws right before making contact, as heroes do in films. BP's still a hero So for all intents and purposes, BP might as well have been punching.

Imagine a match with two equally skilled fighters, except one of them can one-shot the other,

Not if he's holding back. Hawkeye's not even KO'd after Panther breaks out of the hold and hits him thrice.

be unfazed by the other's best hits,

More skilled or not, Black Panther was dodging, parrying, and blocking hits from Hawkeye for some reason so this doesn't apply

ragdoll him through the sheer force of his attacks even when they're blocked,

Logically, yes, but this strength doesn't always translate. If it did, Hawkeye would've been floored when he blocked BP's kick with his bo staff.

and instantly overpower him in a grapple. This match wouldn't last 10 seconds

It was a little over 30 seconds and that's not that crazy considering Clint's not too far from Widow IIRC, he had the reach advantage, and BP was holding back while Clint could go all out.

@kryptonianking88:

He probably would have stopped his claws right before making contact, as heroes do in films.

They do it in training sessions. In this case BP actually had to put Clint down, and stopping his own attacks before making contact obviously wouldn't do that. So if BP had no intention to land those slashes, why did he use them? And why did he extend his claws in the first place?

Hawkeye's not even KO'd after Panther breaks out of the hold and hits him thrice.

Looks like he hits him twice, one of them only being an elbow, and Clint is nowhere to be seen for the rest of the airport battle. For all we know, the first elbow already took him out of the fight and the kick was overkill.

More skilled or not, Black Panther was dodging, parrying, and blocking hits from Hawkeye for some reason so this doesn't apply

It still applies because the hits that do land on BP won't affect him. Normally, hitting your opponent will hurt and disorient him, but Clint didn't have that luxury.

Logically, yes, but this strength doesn't always translate. If it did, Hawkeye would've been floored when he blocked BP's kick with his bo staff.

The scene cuts away as soon as the kick makes contact, perhaps he was ragdolled.

It was a little over 30 seconds and that's not that crazy considering Clint's not too far from Widow IIRC,

You're saying it's not a great feat because Clint is pretty good himself? If so, how do Clint's other good feats change the impressiveness of this one?

he had the reach advantage

Yeah, I was referring to Clint with his staff when putting him over Cap.