How powerful is this version of Ichigo?

New 5th Anniversary form for Ichigo Kurosaki supervised by Tite Kubo. (Basically Ichigo never losses his Dangai/Mugetsu + Fullbring powers and goes straight to the last arc like this.)

Vastly inferior to Horn of Salvation...maybe slightly superior, or comparable, to Real Shikai.

I still think Fullbringer Ichigo was only at the same level of Arrancar Arc Bankai Ichigo.

He would be Bleach's third strongest character behind only bankai Yamamoto and Ichibe.

This Ichigo = True Shikai Merged Hollow < True Bankai < True Bankai Merged Hollow

Dangai is comparable to his base form in the TYBW arc so not that different.

Damn

That is looking nice~

He would probably be even above Reio then tbh

if you take that statement from the Bleach databook that says the Final Getsuga Tenshou surpasses everything in existence completely seriously

@menos_kegare: The manga when it tells us base TYBW Ichigo has regained his former power level.

@menos_kegare:

@gokukid2005: thanks.

@menos_kegare: it specifically says the power he used to face Aizen which is his Dangai power. It seems pretty self explanatory to me.

That claim does not work in context. Why? Yhwach already saw Ichigo had regained his powers before this scene and did not comment on him getting his Shingami powers back, so it does not fit. Specially, when the scan above is a fan translation. The original says "Elevated Power" not the shinigami powers who were mentioned to be awakened in the sentence. The whole sensing transcendent beings was dropped like sensing God KI in DBS as the character became stronger. Kenpachi's reiatsu was not sensible at one point in the story and Byakuya could sense Ichigo's and Yhwach's reiatsu at some point. Same Yhwach who trashed Muken Aizen around who performed a greater Hado 90 feat beyond his God Aizen form Hado 90 to prove Urahara's comment of been stronger than before. Even the light novels comment on how the Soul King is a transcendent being who Ichigo cut in half and Yhwach absorbed. It is possible that Yhwach is talking about the level of strength needed to destroy the crystal and open the seal that held the Soul King's corpse. Only a transcendent being could cut down the Soul King, that fits the whole Aizen becoming transcendent since he had already seen the Soul King before as he mentions to Urahara while been sealed. Aizen knew the level of power needed to take the throne. To top everything else Ichigo's inner quincy spirit said that every battle fought until TYBW was with a fraction of his true power that he could not suppress.

Official translation:

@menos_kegare: yeah mate it's pretty obvious what it meant. Idk why you're trying to deny it.

Ichigo gained Fullbring Shinigami powers from Ginjo's arc, not shinigami powers. That power Yhwach saw it in Soul Society during the first invasion and did not comment on it. That is enough to crush his argument.

Umm... pretty sure White Ichigo was said to be able to destroy the world. And Ichigo was said to be his equal. And this Ichigo>>>Ichigo from that Cacao Society sub story?

Oh, didn't notice. I thought it said Mangapanda maybe you updated the thread?

EDIT: Nevermind it was Gokukid2005 who I wanted to quote but made a mistake by not noticing that you posted the scan first. I should have read the names twice. lol

@menos_kegare said:

@babyholdmyhand:

Yes, it does. Ywach was specifically going on about how Ichigo's progression and fate coincided with Ywach's desires - and that everything he did was done for Ywach's gain. This is the reason he's talking about regaining his Soul Reaper powers. That was the point of his speech after slicing through the Soul King - everything Ichigo had done up until now was for the Ywach's benefit.

And yes, this is the context. From the words he says to the pictures coupled with them. The power he lost coupled with the picture of Aizen - the loss of his shinigami powers in general.

The regaining of his power coupled with the image of Ginjo - Ichigo regaining his Soul Reaper powers in general.(2) There's literally no reason to show Ginjo there otherwise.

The fact Kubo kept the Transcendent power being unsensible through Kenpachi is more proof that he kept this mechanic.

They did not sense Ywach's power after he absorbed the Reio.

Though not explicitly stated, see here. It's announced that Ywach has absorbed them all.

Even his Elites don't react to a sense of reiatsu, but rather only what they can observe physically.

Gallery

And notice here, it's said they can't feel the Spiritual Pressure of the Reio - implying that it can be felt. Furthermore, they directly mention sensing Ichigo's Spiritual Pressure BUT NOT YWACH'S, despite him being vastly more powerful at this point.

The people who could feel Ywach's Spiritual Pressure after this was when Ywach wasn't "Awake" - he didn't have his full power on. Here Ichigo and Orihime can feel his power, but Ywach isn't in his SK form.

And here again, a reference to sensing Ichigo's power. Notice he doesn't talk about Ywach, he only says Ichigo is fighting him based on Ichigo's power rising.

Even in Bankai, Ichigo could not sense Ywach's power. This is practically a reverse of Ichigo vs Aizen, where Aizen was confused about Ichigo and his lack of Spiritual Pressure.

People seem to forget, the Dangai/Final Getsuga already WAS a fusion of his Hollow/Shinigami/Quincy powers, shown by Young Ywach and Zangetsu fusing together - which is what Ichigo's "True" zanpakutou became when released. Not only this, but that technique came at a major cost - to achieve Transcendence, it would rob him of his Shinigami powers for good. This isn't the power they are normally functioning at.

This is further supported by the fact he mopped the floor with everyone because Ywach WAS a transcendent. He only lost due to PIS mcguffin that just so happened to work specifically against Ywach.

Don't really see how that relates to Yhwach's statement "...to elevated your power. That elevated power was to defeat Sosuke Aizen. And regaining the power your lost from defeating Sosuke Aizen..." this is the context that matters in the end. The transcendent reiatsu been sense by others was dropped unless you take Renji's statement from the Fullbring Arc were he said to have train to fight someone on the level of Aizen. Do you believe Renji is now transcendent? Rukia and Renji could sense Aizen's spiritual pressure when he arrived to destroy the mimigahi eyes, Rukia says "...that pressure?!" and the others have a "!" sign next to them. That means they sense Aizen who was behind them.

That is not canon.

Oh, this is canon only? Okay.

You are wrong. "...to elevated your power. That elevated power was to defeat Sosuke Aizen. And regaining the power your lost from defeating Sosuke Aizen..." is the transcendent power used to defeat Aizen. There's no other shinigami power or training that would have defeated Aizen. And even if you say that was his training as a shinigami, is still means the elevated power he gained from that training to defeated Aizen.

"THE. POWER. YOU. LOST. FROM. DEFEATING. AIZEN." That is the key word. It doesn't say "The power you gained AFTER defeating Aizen." Or "The Shinigami powers you lost from defeating Aizen."

Aizen is still transcendent since he can still destroy souls who get near him, something he could only achieve after becoming transcendent and was stated to have become even stronger after that.

The feats in the final arc are above transcendent feats, so in the end I guess it doesn't matter. Gremmy > Dangai ichigo feats.

It is pretty clear Yhwach was saying Ichigo was comparable to his Dangai form...

The more this gets debated the more obvious it is. Idk why it's still getting debated.

Yhwach states Ichigo is back to the level he was when he fought Aizen. That's pretty obvious.

@menos_kegare: And Baby already countered your argument hence why said the more this debated the more obvious it becomes.

There's nothing to talk about. You are ready to contradict and counter every single context to change the meaning of a singe phrase. Occam Razor claims your statement as invalid. The simplest explanation is most likely the correct one. Many assumptions, theories, or opinions are used to jumble around the evidence making it null. You have no argument. This will be the end of my reply and don't worry about replying back as I may not even read it.

@menos_kegare: Your argument is held together by a very inconsistent part of the manga. Which makes no sense when you can just read it and take what Yhwach says literally.

@menos_kegare: No it's clear he's talking about Ichigo's level of power when he fought Aizen. It can't get any clearer than that.

I don't know why you deny it, it only hurts Ichigo to assume otherwise.

Dangai Ichigo with his fullbring he would be stronger but not by much

Haven’t read the none sense above as I said I would. Just came here to state that Bankai Ichigo was able to sense Transcendent Aizen’s Reiatsu when Isshin could not. This was the reason Isshin commanded Ichigo to go to SS and tech him the final Getsuga. Transcendent beings CAN be sense because the author was inconsistent. This was before he train to become Dangai Ichigo.

@menos_kegare: it hurts Ichigo because his base TYBW is supposed to be equal to Dangai but you would rather nerf him over some Headcanon.

Instead if we go by your logic Dangai>>>TYBW Ichigo which means Ichigo is pretty damn weak.

@decaffeinated: Leave him believe his own headcanon. He has already decided to change every single context in the story itself to modify the meaning of one sentence instead of acknowledging what that single sentence meant. He will never change his mind, so don’t waste your time. Just ignore him and move on. The important thing is that you know what the story meant.

Grand Fisher as stated in page is to represent the start of his journey to elevate his Shinigami powers. Grand Fisher was the first he lost to and push him to aim for new heights. The image of Aizen is there to represent the elevated power that he gained by the of his journey as a Shinigami. Ginjo was there to represent that Ichigo regained his elevated power that he once used to defeat Aizen. Many won't agree with what I am going to say and will disagree but that is fine. I will accept that decision. However, Kubo's intentionally created Dangai level of strength characters in the Fullbring arc. Transcendent or not (since that subject is contradictory to itself) Kubo intended to have Ichigo, Ginjo, and Tsukishima on the level of Transcendent Aizen. Why? Hear me out.

Let's start in order.

1. When Ichigo had his "incomplete" Fullbring, Tsukishima made a comment about Ichigo's powers been closer to the powers he once had as a Shinigami. (We are still not at a Dangai level yet possible post ulquiorra level) The problem is that people based everything on feats and ignore power-scaling.
2. After Ichigo Completes his Fullbring (White Armor Form), Ginjo tells Ichigo that his power he gains now are beyond a Shinigami's power. (This means Ichigo has gain a Transcendent level of power, but not really.) In this form Ichigo was able to BLITZ and CUT OFF Tsukishima's entire arm.
3. Tsukishima was able to fodderize Post-Timeskip Byakuya and lost because of his ignorance and let his guard down. Even Kenpachi wanted to switch opponents with Byakuya and fight Tsukishima. We know Tsukishima's power is not memory replacement base on feats, but the power to travel and create alternative timelines from the past that still affect the present. Best examples are repairing Ichigo's bankai, and during combat he can set trap in the floor or even make a seed turn into a giant tree in a second just by adding water to that seed and taking care of the plant in the past. (This happen in the Light Novel where Tsukishima toyed around with Grimmjow, Candice, Bambietta, and Giselle I think.) Even Luppy got stronger to the point where he was on par with Grimmjow in the light novel. Now Tsukishima actually alter the past of Ichigo's friends to where he defeated Transcendent Aizen in the past and save Rukia in the Soul Society Arc. The author draw Tsukishima in the same scene where Dangai Ichigo had cut Butterfly Aizen before he transformed into his God Form. The Monster Aizen according the databook is not the form of a Shinigami or a Hollow, but a God similar to Lille Barro's Vollstandig been a God form of a Quincy. Prime example of Fullbrings are Tsukishima, Ginjo, and Aura because all Fullbrings have a piece of the Soul King inside of them which is where their powers come from. Aura is even comparable to Aizen in the light novels by Urahara himself who matches her in a fight but losses in the end.
4. Ginjo is a hybrid potential substitute Soul King like Ichigo and Hikone stated by Tokinada and Urahara knew of this as he told Hisagi earlier in the novel. Ginjo is hinted to be part Quincy from stealing Ichigo's powers but this is not confirmed. All we know is that he is a potential Soul King candidate and is stated to be on the level of Ichigo in the light novel too which is post TYBW.
5. Renji in the Fullbring Arc stated to have trained over the 17 months time-skip (by now the characters are above Ulquiorra by power scaling and the intent of the author) to be able to fight Aizen. Wherever he reached that level or not is up for debate. The point is the author stated Orihime and Chad also trained during that time. We see Chad making Complete Fullbring Ichigo struggle in strength and Orihime blocking his attack. Her shield cracked and was destroyed something that didn't happened when she blocked base Ulquiorra sword swing. You may argue that Ichigo wasn't at full strength because they were his friends, however, Ichigo was furiously attacking Tsukishima when Chad and Orihime came out of nowhere to stop him mid battle. In the final arc Chad and Orihime train off-camera again with Urahara, Grimmjow and Nel. We have new feats for Orihime in the final arc like been able to stop Uryu's arrows who Quilge himself considers to be stronger than his own, and later Uryu strugges with True Shikai Ichigo who had every intention to kick Uryu's ass and bring him to his senses when he thought he was on the bad guy team. And later Orihime's shield can stop even the Soul King Yhwach's reiatsu.
6. Now during the Fullbring Arc Ichigo's normal sword swings (air pressure) where as strong as his old Getsuga Tensho. Ginjo mistook them as such. By feats this should be stronger than his Dangai air pressure attacks but we sadly don't have the feats to prove it. And people just like to ignore power scaling to downgrade something they don't like because is easy and they feel good. In the end they are only fooling themselves.

Now I don't expect you to accept this at all. Because there I know you will come with the intention to counter and change the context and meaning of each sentence to your own head canon. Something like but not all Fullbrings are that strong... correct. As not all Shinigami or Quincy are in the same tier of power. Try as you like I won't reply because there is no point in a back and forth when the two people arguing already made up their mind. But I am sure you already have a counter for that too.

Back on topic. The reason why True Shikai Ichigo is as strong as Dangai Ichigo is not only because of that Yhwach statement.

1. We have the Yhwach statement of course. The one I already went and explain above.
2. Quincy Zangetsu also states that every fight Ichigo fought up to the TYBW was with a fraction of his true power.
3. During Dangai training Quincy and Hollow Zangetsu merged together into one being and Ichigo trained and fought that form for months without rest while his soul took all the damage outside his mind palace.
4. Ichigo's true shikai is the combine power of both Quincy and Hollow Zangetsu and was able to fight and bruise Base Yhwach who is above all the Quincy even Gremmy who he sealed away in the past without the Almighty. (Light novel info.) Those two are above the Gremmy meteor feat which is a greater feat than Dangai Ichigo.

The reason transcendent beings are not the final pick of a character in the series is because there is so much that contradicts it. You are not going to stand there right now and tell me that Dangai Ichigo and God Aizen can take down Golden Frieza simply because he is not transcendent are you now?

I will reply to your post when I get to it. Right now I am having a meal. But to answer this post. Kubo didn't create this design to represent Fullbring Dangai and imply that he didn't get it back in the Fullbring Arc. Kubo did not make this form at all. This form was created by the designers at Brave Soul studio and SUPERVISE by Kubo. He basically said "Yes, do it as a What If for the 5th Anniversary." The form itself is not canon, so you can't use that as an argument.