How did anakin lose to Obi-Wan if he previously overwhelmed Dooku?

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Alphamon

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No Caption Provided

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Alphamon

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Quincy-Q

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High ground

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KingOfWakanda

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Obi-Wan had the high ground. Anakin was arrogant and jumped into the air like an idiot, making himself vulnerable and got chopped up like a tomato.

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MAZAHS117

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‘Cause he was a MOE-Ron 🤦‍♂️

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Alphamon

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#6  Edited By Alphamon

@kingofwakanda: but shouldn’t anakin have overwhelmed obi wan like he did Dooku

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KingOfWakanda

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@alphamon: If you mean before that fateful jump, not necessarily. Anakin was his pupil for many years. He likely taught him everything so they were able to stalemate each other to that point.

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Necromancer76

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#8 Necromancer76  Online

The High Ground

Nah, I think it has more to do with his conflicted mental state and his arrogance, as well as the fact that Kenobi was playing defense the entire time. There were a lot of factors that worked to Anakin's detriment. But ultimately, yes, Anakin was much more powerful than Kenobi at the time because he was officially Yoda and Sidious tier

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TakenStew22

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High ground.

Either that or Obi-Wan is stronger than Dooku apparently.

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Alphamon

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@kingofwakanda: ya but didn’t he still overpower and out duel Dooku who bodied obi wan twice with anakins help

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EmmaFrostXmen

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#11  Edited By EmmaFrostXmen  Online

PIS and high ground omnipotence

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Stahlflamme

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Cause abc-logic is for a good reason not considered a sound argument...

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KingOfWakanda

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@alphamon: Obi-Wan knows all of Anakin's tricks and techniques since he likely taught them to him. Plus Anakin is fighting angry so he's probably not fighting at his best.

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Alphamon

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@kingofwakanda: well when he was fighting Dooku he out skilled him and overwhelmed him with his rage amp strength, I can see what your saying with obi wan knowing anakins techniques and stuff but that still kinda doesn’t counter the fact he overpowered Dooku and made him use up all his reserves so I fell like ther might be something else to this

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Richard96

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@necromancer76:

“Nah, I think it has more to do with his conflicted mental state and his arrogance, as well as the fact that Kenobi was playing defense the entire time. There were a lot of factors that worked to Anakin's detriment. But ultimately, yes, Anakin was much more powerful than Kenobi at the time because he was officially Yoda and Sidious tier”

Does this have value even in new Disney canon? Cause the SW databank states Anakin and Kenobi were “evenly matched” as warriors as of ROTS, even if this claim basically contradicts the notion of Kenobi being an 8 and Anakin a 9, even if Gillard tiers aren’t canon anymore, theoretically.

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King-Ragnar

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#16  Edited By King-Ragnar

Due to training and sparring with each other for a very long time.

Blade-to-blade, they were identical. After thousands of hours in lightsaber sparring, they knew each other better than brothers, more intimately than lovers; they were complementary halves of a single warrior.

His lightsaber came up in an instinctive parry. They had sparred together so often that they knew each other's favorite moves. Obi-Wan hardly had to think to counter Anakin's attack. Lightsabers humming, they battled their way down the hall and into the control center. It felt.... familiar, like another practice session, except for the exploding equipment.

That and along with other factors such as Anakin's mindset at the time.

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Alphamon

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#17  Edited By Alphamon

@king-ragnar: bit wasn’t anakin just trying to outright kill him or am I forgetting something?

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kgb725

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PIS and high ground omnipotence

Dooku and Obi-Wan use different fighting styles. Obi-wan has near perfect defense and fought with Anakin for years. On a neutral ground that isnt surrounded by lava Anakin would win eventually

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melkorisbeatmod

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High ground and the difference in lightsaber styles. But mostly high ground

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Necromancer76

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#20 Necromancer76  Online

@richard96: Per your argument, then, Kenobi is also in Yoda and Sidious' tier, which simply is not true based on Kenobi's performance against Dooku in ROTS. Sure, they were evenly matched during the duel. We watched it happen—the two were matching each other blow for blow. But that doesn't speak to their power level, as Anakin is certainly above Obi Wan at that point

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Richard96

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#21  Edited By Richard96

@necromancer76:

I would wholeheartedly agree, but in canon can we say that anakin is in yoda/Sidious tier? As per the SW databank, dooku had not anticipated Anakin’s skills on the IH, so it could be argued he can’t be ranked as a yoda/Sidious tier for that feat (not that I would argue it, just underlining new cankn’s inconsistencies)

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chicago_bastard

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Kenobi had the higher ground, that's common knowledge

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El_mago

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#23  Edited By El_mago
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Necromancer76

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#24 Necromancer76  Online

@richard96: In canon, it's not as clear, but I would argue Anakin is still solidly above Kenobi. We see this in TCW when Anakin and Kenobi fight Dooku during the Sifo-Dyas arc, Anakin performs better. In addition, during the end of the bounty hunter arc, Anakin comes decently close to defeating Dooku on his own when he pins him to the ground and grabs his neck (which Sidious smiles at, clearly pleased with his progress). Dooku even glances at Sidious briefly as a sign that he might need help. This is still in TCW and Anakin continued to grow into ROTS

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Cull_Obsidian

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Ani was clearly fighting on emotion and hate, so was obi to an extent, but he was the more emotionally consumed which made him vulnerable, also obi had the literal topographical and moral high ground

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Richard96

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@necromancer76:

These are fair points. I think we can implement the evenly matched quote with the evident circumstances behind the fight that hold even in canon. I believe though that canon pre suit Vader isn’t yoda/Sidious level, simply cause canon had made clear that suited Vader > pre suit Vader in both dueling and force and I highly doubt suited Vader is a yoda/ROTS Sidious+ tier force user/duelist.

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Necromancer76

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#27 Necromancer76  Online

@richard96: This is where we are at an impasse, as I believe pre-suit Vader is greater than suited Vader. Certainly in dueling and agility, while force power is more arguable. But I am in agreement that suited Vader never reached Yoda and Sidious tier.

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Richard96

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#28  Edited By Richard96

@necromancer76:

“This is where we are at an impasse, as I believe pre-suit Vader is greater than suited Vader. Certainly in dueling and agility, while force power is more arguable. But I am in agreement that suited Vader never reached Yoda and Sidious tier.”

This would be, if we go by legends. But in new Disney canon the whole “he’s crippled/more machine than man/he lost limbs so he lost a lot of potential/he’s limited by his prosthetic limbs” thing doesn’t exist anymore. There are multiple quotes stating he’s better than Anakin, surely in the force and most likely even in sabers.

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King-Ragnar

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@alphamon said:

@king-ragnar: bit wasn’t anakin just trying to outright kill him or am I forgetting something?

The explanation would be too long, so i'd recommend reading this to get a the full picture.

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Grinningf0x

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Context

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Necromancer76

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#31 Necromancer76  Online

@richard96: I am a man of feats. Statements from the ROTS novelization and George Lucas interviews contradict some of the statements regarding suited Vader's superiority. I turn to feats and the like, and from a practical point of view, Vader's suit hinders his ability to move as well as he did before. In addition, regarding force power, he did "lose potential" which I know is questionable what that even means but it exists nonetheless.

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Richard96

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#32  Edited By Richard96

@necromancer76:

“I am a man of feats.”

I agree sometimes feats can override statements, but the only feat that would put anakin > Vader is his fight with dooku. But why shouldn’t Vader be able to do the same thing or even worse to an overconfident dooku, in canon?

“Statements from the ROTS novelization and George Lucas interviews contradict some of the statements regarding suited Vader's superiority.”

The ROTS novel states even that Anakin was the strongest and fastest Jedi by the beginning of ROTS, that is clearly false cause many more quotes stated Yoda is. Lucas statements which don’t align with the new Disney ones get overidden, as far as I know, surely the ones which state suited Vader was crippled and so on. Which statements are you referring?

“I turn to feats and the like, and from a practical point of view, Vader's suit hinders his ability to move as well as he did before.”

That’s is somehow true, but it could have been compensated by an increase in skill, tactics, force power, force knowledge, physic strength and durability. Agility is the only advantage pre suit Vader has.

“In addition, regarding force power, he did "lose potential" which I know is questionable what that even means but it exists nonetheless.”

Where was it stated in canon? Cause I remember that maybe Matt Martin or Chee (?) stated in a tweet that the loss of limbs doesn’t make you lose potential in canon. They responded to a question about maul’s potential after he got cut in half.

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Necromancer76

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#33 Necromancer76  Online

@richard96:

I agree sometimes feats can override statements, but the only feat that would put anakin > Vader is his fight with dooku. But why shouldn’t Vader be able to do the same thing or even worse to an overconfident dooku, in canon?

I think his fight with Kenobi on Mustafar outstrips his performance with him on the Death Star. And I'm not necessarily referring to actor/reality limitations. As for Dooku, watching his fights in TCW illustrates the way he uses his agility and reflexes to his advantage that I don't think Vader would be able to keep up with from a dueling perspective.

The ROTS novel states even that Anakin was the strongest and fastest Jedi by the beginning of ROTS, that is clearly false cause many more quotes stated Yoda is. Lucas statements which don’t align with the new Disney ones get overidden, as far as I know, surely the ones which state suited Vader was crippled and so on. Which statements are you referring?

These are some of the quotes that I had in mind:

And you rage and scream and reach through the Force to crush the shadow who has destroyed you, but you are so far less now than what you were, you are more than half machine, you are like a painter gone blind, a composer gone deaf, you can remember where the power was but the power you can touch is only a memory, and so with all your world-destroying fury it is only droids around you that implode, and equipment, and the table on which you were strapped shatters, and in the end, you cannot touch the shadow.

Source: Revenge of the Sith

"Anakin, as Skywalker, as a human being, was going to be extremely powerful,” he says. “But he ended up losing his legs and an arm and became partly a robot. So a lot of his ability to use the Force, a lot of his powers, are curbed at this point, because, as a living form, there’s not that much of him left. So his ability to be twice as good as the Emperor disappeared, and now he’s maybe 20 percent less than him.

Source: http://www.vanityfair.com/news/2005/02/star-wars-george-lucas-story

"You got it. And when he finds out Luke is his son, his first impulse is to figure out a way of getting him to join him to kill the Emperor. That's what Siths do! He tries it with anybody he thinks might be more powerful, which is what the Emperor was looking for in the first place: somebody who would be more powerful than he was and could help him rule the universe. But Obi-Wan screwed that up by cutting off his arms and legs and burning him up. From then on, he wasn't as strong as the Emperor – he was like Darth Maul or Count Dooku. He wasn't what he was supposed to become. But the son could become that."

Source: http://www.rollingstone.com/movies/news/george-lucas-and-the-cult-of-darth-vader-20050602

This is Anakin Skywalker:

The most powerful Jedi of his generation. Perhaps of any generation. The fastest. The strongest. An unbeatable pilot. An unstoppable warrior. On the ground, in the air or sea or space, there is no one even close. He has not just power, not just skill, but dash: that rare, invaluable combination of boldness and grace.

He is the best there is at what he does. The best there has ever been. And he knows it.

Source: Revenge of the Sith

"Skywalker is arguably the most powerful Jedi alive, and he is still getting stronger."

Source: Revenge of the Sith

"We won't try, Anakin. We will do. After all, they are only Senators. Most of them couldn't hide what they're thinking from a brain-damaged blindworm, let alone the most powerful Jedi in the galaxy."

Source: Revenge of the Sith

"He is powerful. Potentially more powerful than even myself." (Sidious)

Source: Revenge of the Sith

"An embarrassment you can survive, Lord Tyranus. After all, he is the greatest Jedi alive, is he not?"

Source: Revenge of the Sith

And so on.

That’s is somehow true, but it could have been compensated by an increase in skill, tactics, force power, force knowledge, physic strength and durability. Agility is the only advantage pre suit Vader has.

I agree, but many of these are assumptions. The only ones that are probably definitive are physical strength and durability.

Where was it stated in canon? Cause I remember that maybe Matt Martin or Chee (?) stated in a tweet that the loss of limbs doesn’t make you lose potential in canon. They responded to a question about maul’s potential after he got cut in half.

See above.

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Mutant1230

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Because fictional universes don't run on ABC logic

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Alphamon

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RGR

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It's a matter of fighting styles.

Obi-Wan stalemated Anakin in both sabers and Force power, with numerous canon sources claiming they were "evenly matched". Pre-prime Obi-Wan also did much better than Dooku against Savage Oppress (who had Maul as backup) in a lightsaber duel.

Yet, he did poorly against the Count himself, despite the two of them being comparable in power. This is because Dooku had a stylistic advantage over Obi-Wan, so he could find an opening to Force-grip him.

Every time that Dooku has gained the upper hand vs RotS Obi-Wan it was in a 1v2 fight that forced Obi-Wan to use Ataru, an aggressive form that is not Obi-Wan's favorite and Dooku knows how to counter better than anyone, thanks to him being Yoda's Padawan and Qui-Gon's Master, both renowned Ataru practitioners. This is a distinct advantage that helped Dooku beat Obi-Wan in RotS, as supported by Lightsabers: A Guide to Weapons of the Force (2018):

Familiar with Obi-Wan's fighting style, the Dark Lord once again got the better of him.
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Krasny

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Everyone could try to justify it by saying highground(which bts shows it wasn't in the script nick gillard added it because of something haydeen didn't like to do walk at some hill of something) , Fighting styles, or Anakin not in the right state of mind. But the real reason is plot. Plot needed Anakin to lose. that jump wasnt even that high. In TCW and rebels they jumped so high thats its embarrassing the chosen one cant make such a small jump. in fact i think they jumped higher in the beginning scene in ROTS when anakin and obi jumped out of there ship when entering the invisible hand.

I will say the environment really helped Obi too. He need the space to stall. If they were in a confined space where Obi had no room to create space he would have lost.

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Necromancer76

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#38  Edited By Necromancer76  Online

^^ It's also important to add how Kenobi performed the EXACT same move against Maul and he emerged victorious, whereas Anakin performing it resulted in his defeat.

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G_Race

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#39  Edited By G_Race

@alphamon: Thanks for the callout, a lot to unpack here. Anakin lost to Obi Wan for a number of reason I think. First and foremost his unhinged state led to wreckless behaviour and arrogant actions; he disrespected an otherwise formidable foe. Coupled with ‘being between two worlds’ Anakin was exposed in a few ways &; he payed for it dearly. Next, Obi Wan’s intimate understanding of Anakin’s every move. 1000’s of hours spent sparring, observing, being in awe of his younger padawan’s skill. More important to the subject-witnessing Anakin’s failures, and the few struggles he carried with him; none the less still there & real, those weaknesses could be explored by the right hand.

Plot based stupidity. Pretty basic, I think we all understand that one....for every obvious reason in the saga.

Obi Wan. Guy has mastered Soresu, an ideal counter to the aggressive Djem-So Skywalker style. If there were just a slight push to knock a Djem-So practitioner off his game, and have him over extended or ... exhaust himself. Boom, countered and mince meat.

Kenobi is not far enough under Skywalker tier wise to hold an easily exploitable advantage for the latter. Think about sports. Slightly worse teams beat favored teams all the time, daily even-across sports. It can happen, and did for Kenobi-that time. Over 10 times and under a different mental state... likely not.

In short, extreme understanding of Anakin, like watching a baby from birth to a young man.

Mental Instability. Although, and admittedly Kenobi would be suffering from this too Vs his peer, Anakin was a f***ing mess. Killed kids, maybe his wife at this stage, and trying to kill his brother/father figure all in like 30 hours. I mean Damnnnnnnn.

Acumen. Anakin threw it away in every applicable way and lost because of it.

PIS and high ground omnipotence.

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TheSpartanB345T

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Dooku perfectly countered Obi-Wan's defensive Soresu with precise, calm, and calculated strikes that pierced through his form.

Anakin perfectly countered Dooku's precision style with overwhelming offense.

Anakin and Obi-Wan are well-matched because it is the perfect offense vs the perfect defense. While Anakin edges over Obi-Wan by a decent margin, his extreme emotional turmoil had him in a heavily nerfed state. Mustafar Vader was inferior to normal Anakin by a good amount.

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Windshieldwiper

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johnsmjs36

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The Omnipotence of High Ground is something not even the Chosen of Force can counter.

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christianrapper

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because obi was one of the most powerful force users and jedi in the galaxy.

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SentryVoid7

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High ground

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Richard96

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@necromancer76:

“I think his fight with Kenobi on Mustafar outstrips his performance with him on the Death Star.”

Even according to Time of Death, that has Ben steadily giving ground and badly tiring and he admits he has no chance to win?

“And I'm not necessarily referring to actor/reality limitations. As for Dooku, watching his fights in TCW illustrates the way he uses his agility and reflexes to his advantage that I don't think Vader would be able to keep up with from a dueling perspective.”

Fair point.

“These are some of the quotes that I had in mind:”

But those statements from Lucas aren’t canon anymore, apparently. The ROTS novel isn’t canon where it doesn’t align with Disney statements. Also, anakin being the strongest Jedi alive by ROTS (that is still contradicted by many sources stating yoda is) doesn’t hamper Vader from being better than him.

“See above.”

As I said, the ROTS novel isn’t canon where it doesn’t align with new canon statements, as well as Lucas words.

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Bayman007

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The plot and different fighting styles come to mind.

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FinalKingThanos

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#47  Edited By FinalKingThanos

The main reasons often cited are:

Master vs former apprentice / know each others tricks etc.

Obi Wan was full on defensive for most of the fight and through that still managed to last.

Anakin was conflicted and torn between his emotions much like Vader is in battles with Luke.

And lastly plot lol it fit the film better that they had a long emotional battle rather than Anakin tier 9 stomping Obi Wan plus we know he had to live and Anakin had to become Vader etc.

EDIT - meme aside Obi Wans calmer more focussed mentality is what led him to use the environment more and then take the high ground while Anakin was full of rage and regret and just wanted to chop through him.

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Necromancer76

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#48  Edited By Necromancer76  Online

@richard96:

Even according to Time of Death, that has Ben steadily giving ground and badly tiring and he admits he has no chance to win?

Possibly. Kenobi was a lot older and was arguably out of his prime, at least in terms of dueling.

But those statements from Lucas aren’t canon anymore, apparently. The ROTS novel isn’t canon where it doesn’t align with Disney statements. Also, anakin being the strongest Jedi alive by ROTS (that is still contradicted by many sources stating yoda is) doesn’t hamper Vader from being better than him.

Interesting. I didn't think the official novelization for the movies would be revoked. What new statements has Disney provided in canon that give Yoda the clear superiority? As for the latter portion of your response, there is still Sidious admitting Anakin is on his level, by which time he was officially Darth Vader.

While I have your attention, I'm trying to grind out my Top 30 Sith Lords list before I take a break from CV like I did last time. Since you are pretty well-versed on Caedus, how do you think he compares to Darth Tenebrous and prime suited Vader (like ROTJ)?

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Richard96

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#49  Edited By Richard96

@necromancer76:

“Interesting. I didn't think the official novelization for the movies would be revoked. What new statements has Disney provided in canon that give Yoda the clear superiority?”

In the SW databank yoda was labeled as the ultimate Jedi master, and he and Sidious were stated to be arguably the two most powerful beings in the galaxy. Not to mention, most of the ROTS novel quotes bar the first are from characters’ perspective.

“As for the latter portion of your response, there is still Sidious admitting Anakin is on his level, by which time he was officially Darth Vader.”

He stated Vader was potentially more powerful than himself, as we all know.

“While I have your attention, I'm trying to grind out my Top 30 Sith Lords list before I take a break from CV like I did last time. Since you are pretty well-versed on Caedus, how do you think he compares to Darth Tenebrous and prime suited Vader (like ROTJ)?”

Oh well, he is considerably above both. He’s a match for GM Luke as per two different statements, and he should scale above Kyp Durron given he was stated he was second in power only to Luke among the Jedi as of beginning of LOTF. Kyp Durron telekinetically manipulated a dovin basal singularity, just as NJO Luke by with less strain (albeit Luke was tired and manipulated two of them). Considering the amount of mass required to generate a black hole, this is by miles the best telekinetic feat of the mythos. I’d place him definitely in the top 3/5.

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Necromancer76

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#50 Necromancer76  Online

@richard96:

In the SW databank yoda was labeled as the ultimate Jedi master, and he and Sidious were stated to be arguably the two most powerful beings in the galaxy. Not to mention, most of the ROTS novel quotes bar the first are from characters’ perspective.

The quote is a little ambiguous both because Anakin wasn't a Master until the middle of ROTS and "ultimate" may or may not mean powerful in this regard. But I think it's fair to place Yoda above based on statements alone. And I agree, character perspective quotes may certainly be biased. I'll admit, I'm more versed in Sith as opposed to Jedi.

Oh well, he is considerably above both. He’s a match for GM Luke as per two different statements, and he should scale above Kyp Durron given he was stated he was second in power only to Luke among the Jedi as of beginning of LOTF. Kyp Durron telekinetically manipulated a dovin basal singularity, just as NJO Luke by with less strain (albeit Luke was tired and manipulated two of them). Considering the amount of mass required to generate a black hole, this is by miles the best telekinetic feat of the mythos. I’d place him definitely in the top 3/5.

Interesting. Do you know if many people are in agreement or this is purely your own take?