Heroclix racism.

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Sling Shot

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#1  Edited By Sling Shot

The numerous Cap America clix outpower and out last every Black Panther click, which is only two.

Cap has about six or seven different versions and each one is an arguably accurate depiction.

The first BP click has the right idea but falls woefully short of accurate in endurance and ability.

THe latest click is much better but not as evenly matched with the Cap click as the comics have displayed.

Racism? I don't know but this trend of underestimating BP in regards to Cap is an epidemic, especially with canon comic chronology backing it up.

Hate on BP haters ,hate on.

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The_Ghostshell

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#2  Edited By The_Ghostshell

Check your pms. I dont play hero clix but it doesn't surprise me.

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Dr. Doom

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#3  Edited By Dr. Doom

The Black Panther is awesome...

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Methos

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#4  Edited By Methos

i know this is a serious subject but this scene just popped into my head while i was reading it...

sorry :D

M

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Sling Shot

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#5  Edited By Sling Shot

I know the Chasing Amy post is supposed to be funny. But the comic creator's soliloquy is founded in real world problems amd his dissection of Star Wars is not just isolated coincidences but a heritage of affirmed media messages dating to the beginning of modern media in America. Racism is institutional, just like water is H2O oxygen is in the molecules, the integral structure of water, so is racism in our current society.

I don't think the comic creators issues are best recived in a satirical fashion because it makes light of a real problem. Marginalizing the comic creator to a stereotype insteead of having a legitimate voice.One of many forms of racist checks and balances. But I digress.

Heroclix needs to up their Panther!

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Methos

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#6  Edited By Methos

whoah... very deep...

while yes, i do agree that racism has become a bit of a problem more and more recently... it seems that people are only looking at how much racism is starting again, not that fact that lass than 50 years ago racism was such a bigger problem that it is now.

but at the same time, racism isn't just a one way thing...

in 2004 87,000 people from black or minority ethnic communities said they had been a victim of a racially motivated crime. They had suffered 49,000 violent attacks, with 4,000 being wounded.

At the same time 92,000 white people said they had also fallen victim of a racially motivated crime. The number of violent attacks against whites reached 77,000, while the number of white people who reported being wounded was five times the number of black and minority ethnic victims at 20,000. Most of the offenders (57%) in the racially motivated crimes identified in the British Crime Survey are not white. White victims said 82% of offenders were not white

i personally believe that all types of racism is something that should not be tolerated, but i understand that it takes time for things to change. think about it, barely 100 years ago slavery was a real life thing, and it got even worse when the slavery laws were abolished for african american's living in america.

it will take time, i hope it does or this planet doesn't really have a chance of surviving for another 1000 years.

M

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#7  Edited By Sling Shot

Methos says:

"whoah... very deep... while yes, i do agree that racism has become a bit of a problem more and more recently... it seems that people are only looking at how much racism is starting again, not that fact that lass than 50 years ago racism was such a bigger problem that it is now. but at the same time, racism isn't just a one way thing... ----------- in 2004 87,000 people from black or minority ethnic communities said they had been a victim of a racially motivated crime. They had suffered 49,000 violent attacks, with 4,000 being wounded. At the same time 92,000 white people said they had also fallen victim of a racially motivated crime. The number of violent attacks against whites reached 77,000, while the number of white people who reported being wounded was five times the number of black and minority ethnic victims at 20,000. Most of the offenders (57%) in the racially motivated crimes identified in the British Crime Survey are not white. White victims said 82% of offenders were not white ----------- i personally believe that all types of racism is something that should not be tolerated, but i understand that it takes time for things to change. think about it, barely 100 years ago slavery was a real life thing, and it got even worse when the slavery laws were abolished for african american's living in america. it will take time, i hope it does or this planet doesn't really have a chance of surviving for another 1000 years. M"

Yeah this debate could go on for a while. But I will say BP is sufferiung in this instance not Cap. When Cap is neglected by Wizkid for whatever reason we will focus on it ,but for now the BP hate is pretty evident.By hate I mean ranging from outright hate to inferior depictions of him in comparison to what is canon.

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Methos

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#8  Edited By Methos

yeah, BP has had a bit of a stomping this version of HC...

i didn't mean for offense with the video, this discussion just reminded me of it for some reason

M

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Sling Shot

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#9  Edited By Sling Shot

NBo offense taken. Actually it was a good opportunity to talk about the seriousnes and reality of his complaints, which I think is glossed over in the movie in the name of humor. But humor for who?

I digress again. Man, this subject has a life of its own.

A better BPclick is just over the horizon

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Methos

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#10  Edited By Methos

racism has always been glossed over in Sc-Fi and Fantasy... it's a fact of the genre...

it's a pity but i can only think of two or three comics that have actually addressed racism and real world concerns.

M

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Sling Shot

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#11  Edited By Sling Shot

There was a line in the mid 90's called Milestone. Iv'e read almost all their stuff. To me they were a Godsend, they adressed issues I had to deal with and the cast was very diverse incorporating all types into a lot of archetypes. Their flagship books are still some of the best I've read to date.

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Methos

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#12  Edited By Methos

hmmm, might have to hunt them down then... sound interesting

M

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Sling Shot

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#13  Edited By Sling Shot

My fave was Blood Syndicate.It's where artist Chriss Cross got his start. Other faves were Shadow Cabinet John Paul Leon was fresh. Static and Hardware were good to. And Icon was always very deliberate in addressing issues.

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Methos

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#14  Edited By Methos

sounds interesting... thanks for the tip :D

M

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cwpolzel

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#15  Edited By cwpolzel  Moderator

Sling Shot says:

"My fave was Blood Syndicate.It's where artist Chriss Cross got his start. Other faves were Shadow Cabinet John Paul Leon was fresh. Static and Hardware were good to. And Icon was always very deliberate in addressing issues."

The Dakota universse comics were great stuff, Blood Syndicate was easily my favorite, with Hardware a close second. I've been playing HC from the beginning and while the Panther doesn't match up in certain regards, he is still a good piece in the game. The Panther is also a bad @ss sculpt as well, especially the new one. I would love to see some of the Milestone characters as Heroclix.

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Sling Shot

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#16  Edited By Sling Shot

Blue_Shield says:

"Sling Shot says:
"My fave was Blood Syndicate.It's where artist Chriss Cross got his start. Other faves were Shadow Cabinet John Paul Leon was fresh. Static and Hardware were good to. And Icon was always very deliberate in addressing issues."
The Dakota universse comics were great stuff, Blood Syndicate was easily my favorite, with Hardware a close second. I've been playing HC from the beginning and while the Panther doesn't match up in certain regards, he is still a good piece in the game. The Panther is also a bad @ss sculpt as well, especially the new one. I would love to see some of the Milestone characters as Heroclix."

Blood Syndicate clix would make my decade. And yeah BP looks fresh, kinda hard to mess his all black suit athletic pose look up, and the new BP is much better than his previous one but isn't as equal,or even better, than Cap his closest comparison, him and Mr. Fantastic, and Black Bolt or Namor.

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Gottheit

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#17  Edited By Gottheit

Uhh...are we saying that the sculptors of plastic toys and general game makers are racist? I think what it is, is the makers of the game probably don't follow regular comics, and would just assume that the character they know more about is stronger. Plus, your not taking into account Cap's shield.

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Sling Shot

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#18  Edited By Sling Shot

Uhhh...are we making excuses for people we don't personally know and wit a condescending tone trying to discount evidence...maybe in an attempt to make our own conscience feel better or maybe something far more sinister like protecting racism?

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Methos

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#19  Edited By Methos

owch...

that sounded a bit too much like a personal attack when this is just a friendly conversation about the toy's that need some work...

M

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Gottheit

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#20  Edited By Gottheit

First of all, I don't condone racism buster(except the Russians. They're up to something, I just know it...). Second of all, you're just trying to make conspiracy theories, possibly out of boredom, and are probably picking a fight with me 'cause your in a "F&ck you" kind of mood and don't care. Trust me, we can smell our own a mile away, and I actually quite admire what you're doing here, but the Godhead isn't going to lose his own game. I refuse to accept that EVERY SINGLE PERSON working at Heroclix is racist enough to keep down BP. I mean, that's too heavy, EVEN for the Black Panther.

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CanadianWolverine

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Riiiight...

I'm not impressed by your "evidence", which is so much trumped up personal opinions based off a bias from possiblely unfortunate personal experience(s).

First off, it needs to be said, it is a game. Games which are meant to have a outcome have defined rules, merely towards using the game mechanics to have a win or a lose, for our enjoyment and entertainment. If you really think the game is imbalanced and not fun, stop playing - there are plenty of other games. If you still want to play, why not come up with a set of house rules that the other players agree to and/or write the designers of the game to ask for an amendment.

Next up, I just gotta say, if they really were biased towards a particular skin color and/or culture, then why not just remove Black Panther altogether? Heck, make him a character that can only be defined in game terms as the bad guy, to be ridiculed and hated as a obstacle to the goals of the player's characters. That would be racist. Instead, the character is included - so what if the stats are off from your personal preference? Not all my favorite characters are going to have the game defined "respect" they probably deserve either, as most heroes true qualities are undefinable until a writer says so otherwise aka their future has not been determined until its written. Still pissed at the stats anyways? Remember its a game and you can edit/add/remove the rules as you see fit for your own games aka house rules.

I suppose I should open up a thread saying various designers hate Canadians next because some Canadian characters don't have the stats they deserve.

Don't you have something better to bitch about with regards to comics and games? It seems possible, as the body of your posts give a general air of "Chip On Shoulder" attitude.

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Gottheit

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#22  Edited By Gottheit

You know, house rules are great. We have a rule saying that Doomsday cannot be outwitted, cannot be pushed, cannot be incapacitated, and the character needs to have Super Strength somewhere on their dial to even damage Doomsday. What's more, as a free action, he rolls a dice and heals whatever amount of clicks. Only a Kryptonian can hurt him without having him heal it back. But, of course, he's a CPU only...makes games a lot more interesting, for everyone.

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The_Ghostshell

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#23  Edited By The_Ghostshell

CanadianWolverine says:

"Riiiight...I'm not impressed by your "evidence", which is so much trumped up personal opinions based off a bias from possiblely unfortunate personal experience(s).First off, it needs to be said, it is a game. Games which are meant to have a outcome have defined rules, merely towards using the game mechanics to have a win or a lose, for our enjoyment and entertainment. If you really think the game is imbalanced and not fun, stop playing - there are plenty of other games. If you still want to play, why not come up with a set of house rules that the other players agree to and/or write the designers of the game to ask for an amendment.Next up, I just gotta say, if they really were biased towards a particular skin color and/or culture, then why not just remove Black Panther altogether? Heck, make him a character that can only be defined in game terms as the bad guy, to be ridiculed and hated as a obstacle to the goals of the player's characters. That would be racist. Instead, the character is included - so what if the stats are off from your personal preference? Not all my favorite characters are going to have the game defined "respect" they probably deserve either, as most heroes true qualities are undefinable until a writer says so otherwise aka their future has not been determined until its written. Still pissed at the stats anyways? Remember its a game and you can edit/add/remove the rules as you see fit for your own games aka house rules.I suppose I should open up a thread saying various designers hate Canadians next because some Canadian characters don't have the stats they deserve.Don't you have something better to bitch about with regards to comics and games? It seems possible, as the body of your posts give a general air of "Chip On Shoulder" attitude."

I doubt he was trying to impress you with his posts. Of course you could create your own rules but why should we have to? I've never played hero clix but I'm pretty sure people would object to throwing out the rule book and just making your own. From what I hear there are tournaments and I think they may have something to say about these so called HOUSE RULES>

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Gottheit

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#24  Edited By Gottheit

Well Gambler, people who actively play in tournements, and, like, poke their noses into people's personal business to bitch and moan about someone who takes liberties is a tool to begin with, so I wouldn't worry about those guys...and, besides, house rules is when you're not really concerned about competing, and just wanna have fun, and satisfy our own "nerd-ism".

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The_Ghostshell

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#25  Edited By The_Ghostshell

Gottheit says:

"Well Gambler, people who actively play in tournements, and, like, poke their noses into people's personal business to bitch and moan about someone who takes liberties is a tool to begin with, so I wouldn't worry about those guys...and, besides, house rules is when you're not really concerned about competing, and just wanna have fun, and satisfy our own "nerd-ism"."

That whole top sentence went right over my head. I think Sling Shot makes an excellent point, there are like 6 variations of Cap and there all about right on. There are TWO of Black Panther and they cant get it right? You would think if Marvel was going to attach its name to something they would want there product represented to the fullest and most accurate it could be. It seems like they always make sure Cap is up to standard, why not give BP the same treatment?
Post Edited:2007-08-23 21:20:03

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#26  Edited By Gottheit

I'm not surprised that it did. And did you ever think that they don't make a lot of Black Panther because there's not a high Demand for Black Panther? I mean, maybe if you guys wrote letters to the company demanding more Panther, they'd make more. Maybe. JUUUUST F*CKING MAYBE...

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#27  Edited By The_Ghostshell

Gottheit says:

"I'm not surprised that it did. And did you ever think that they don't make a lot of Black Panther because there's not a high Demand for Black Panther? I mean, maybe if you guys wrote letters to the company demanding more Panther, they'd make more. Maybe. JUUUUST F*CKING MAYBE..."

Why you swearing? Are you really that worked up over the topic? I MEAN I CAN TYPE IN CAPS TO, SEE? DOES THIS MEAN MY POINT IS MORE IMPORTANT?

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Gottheit

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#28  Edited By Gottheit

I didn't curse. See the asterik?

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#29  Edited By The_Ghostshell

Gottheit says:

"I didn't curse. See the asterik?"

My bad.

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#30  Edited By Gottheit

It's ok. pets head It's ok.

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#31  Edited By Sling Shot
@CanadianWolverine:

Just randomly happened across this old thread looking for possible blood syndicate heroclix on the internet and realized I never addressed CW's response to my thread....Whelp here it goes...

I see you were unconvinced that a popular Marvel character with a rich backstory and plenty of canon evidence of his abilities, was the victim of a biased manufacturer. I guess Black Panther being incarnated into a sub-par facsimile of his comic version, and my observation of it is purely a personal problem and a result of a "Chip on my Shoulder." SO, I would like to add if there was an inaccurate version, a weakened bargain basement version of Wolverine, I'm guessing you like him, I know I do, You wouldn't bring up your dissapointment with it?  Oh wait Wolverine, has nearly 15 versions in the game so I guess you could just go with a more accurate depiction. 


To disregard a pattern of inaccuracy, leaning toward inferiority, as a fluke is a common response to the results of racism. There are tomes of historical documentation on the subject, for all you academic skeptics. Is BP's inaccurate stats the result of racism, I have no definitive tangible evidence to provide to convince you, but experience with the massive reality of it and deduction brought me to that conclusion. I do have other reasons other than what I provided to support my assessment if anyone had inquiry. But that wasn't the case instead I was declared a complainer with no reason to be upset....Strong stance for someone not personally invested, because it's just a game.

Aaaand if you feel like making a thread addressing the negative attention Canadian characters undeservedly recieve, go for it. But don't attempt to compare and minimalize the heritage and pre-eminance of racism in culture to this point. I know you thought you were being clever, and I apologize for not addressing you much much sooner.


I'm sure this will garner more criticism. so be it. I will converse with any one with a valid point.

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defaultdefaultdefault

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okay, got to give it this...
 
thats the best thread title ive seen in awhile. lol.

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This seems far more like an example of one of Marvel's crown jewel characters getting a boost at the expense of one of it's lesser-knowns than an example of racism.  I wouldn't be surprised if the stats for Hulk, Spider-Man and Wolverine were disproportionate to their comic power levels as well.  It's not like the guys who make HeroClix are going through the comics exhaustively analyzing every fight in order make their game dead accurate.  They're just interested in who will sell better due to popularity, and thus Cap gets a boost for fanservice.  It's greed trumping accuracy, and it happens all the time.
 
Now if Black Panther's figure is consistantly lower in power than lesser known white characters that he's clearly higher than in the comics, then yes, you could see a pattern of racism there.  But even then you'd need to look at how other black heroes like Luke Cage are portrayed in the game.

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#34  Edited By BIackFlash
@Gottheit said:
"

It's ok. pets head It's ok.

"

 
 
 

Mr. Popo is a character in the manga/anime Dragonball/Z. He is the caretaker of Kami's Lookout and friend to Kami, the guardian of earth.



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#35  Edited By Akwa
@Gambler said:
"

Gottheit says:

"Well Gambler, people who actively play in tournements, and, like, poke their noses into people's personal business to bitch and moan about someone who takes liberties is a tool to begin with, so I wouldn't worry about those guys...and, besides, house rules is when you're not really concerned about competing, and just wanna have fun, and satisfy our own "nerd-ism"."

That whole top sentence went right over my head. I think Sling Shot makes an excellent point, there are like 6 variations of Cap and there all about right on. There are TWO of Black Panther and they cant get it right? You would think if Marvel was going to attach its name to something they would want there product represented to the fullest and most accurate it could be. It seems like they always make sure Cap is up to standard, why not give BP the same treatment?
Post Edited:2007-08-23 21:20:03

"

Personally, I think they make more versions of Cap because he's a much more popular and well-known character.
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#36  Edited By box turtle
@Dr. Doom said:
"

The Black Panther is awesome...

"

Agreed!  Which one do you prefer?
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#37  Edited By box turtle

Maybe its not racism, its just that its harder to make a BP heroclix.  Why don't you show some pics so we can see for ourselves.
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Donovan Montgomery

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I personally think the BP clix is under powered as well, due to racism or popularity I couldn't honestly tell u.  I'm hopping that with the rumoured revival of Heroclix and the recent upturn in intrest in the BP title, that we will be getting a better representation of not just T'Challa but also oe of the new Panther. 
TW, untill the Avengers set (Ithink), I thought DD was way under rated as well.  
BP clix = way under rated
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#39  Edited By box turtle

   This is ok.  I miss the cape, but its fine.