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#1 Posted by shroudofsorrow (5812 posts) - - Show Bio

So, according to Death Battle's Black Widow Vs. Widowmaker video which came out today, Nat has beaten Punisher, Wolverine, and Winter Soldier. However, my understanding is that this is false; WS has beaten her, her fight with Punisher during Rucka's run was an inconclusive draw, and she only ever sparred evenly with a Wolverine who was holding back.

But have there been any other instances where Nat has, in fact, beaten any of these three? Or can we just chalk this up to yet another mistake on Death Battle's part?

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#2 Posted by TheSpartanB345T (4019 posts) - - Show Bio

All 3 are decisively above her.

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#3 Posted by shroudofsorrow (5812 posts) - - Show Bio

@thespartanb345t: I thought so. But I want some solid refutation that she has not, in fact, beaten any of these three.

Also, I want to emphasize that I don't hate DB, and I found their BW Vs. Widowmaker episode entertaining. But as we all know, they're not infallible. And I'm curious to see if this is one such instance where they got it wrong.

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#4 Posted by Lord_Titan_ (2635 posts) - - Show Bio

All 3 are decisively above her.

The gap between widow and wolverine is probably a bit ridiculous

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#5 Posted by shroudofsorrow (5812 posts) - - Show Bio

@lord_titan_: As I recall, they did have an even H2H fight, but I think it's safe to say that Logan was holding back.

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#6 Posted by Invisible_Force (91 posts) - - Show Bio

I think Widow looses to Logan but beats Frank, not sure about Barnes

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#7 Posted by deactivated-5cc073360931e (791 posts) - - Show Bio

She has beaten Both Punisher and Winter solider (If you want the scans hit me up)

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#8 Posted by shroudofsorrow (5812 posts) - - Show Bio
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#9 Posted by deactivated-5cc073360931e (791 posts) - - Show Bio
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#10 Posted by Morpheus_ (34431 posts) - - Show Bio

Her "win" against Bucky is hilarious. Buck and Clint spend a few issues looking for her after they believe she's dead, then dote on her once she appears. Bucky does not even defend himself and Clint freezes, doing literally nothing.

That isn't Nat, by the way. It's a Red Room clone. Nat is still as dead as a dodo.

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#11 Posted by shroudofsorrow (5812 posts) - - Show Bio

@morpheus_: Yeah, I have to agree that that win against Barnes looks like nothing more than a low showing. Especially when Barnes has beaten her on an earlier occasion.

As for the Punisher fight, that's a good feat, and I take it as legit. But it is worth noting that they did fight evenly on a previous occasion, plus both getting stalemated by the same person (Silver Sable), and losing to another (Daredevil). So I would still say that Punisher and BW are about the same in H2H skill. Widow just happened to win that particular fight.

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#12 Edited by ANTHP2000 (26960 posts) - - Show Bio

She's consistently above the Punisher's level, his only win(s) or even stalemets over her are in his very own runs where he's matched people like Daredevil.

Barnes is consistently her superior by a decent margin, I don't recall her beating him. Wolverine is er, Wolverine.

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#13 Posted by TDK_1997 (18675 posts) - - Show Bio

Her "win" against Bucky is hilarious. Buck and Clint spend a few issues looking for her after they believe she's dead, then dote on her once she appears. Bucky does not even defend himself and Clint freezes, doing literally nothing.

That isn't Nat, by the way. It's a Red Room clone. Nat is still as dead as a dodo.

That was a great story btw. Very well told and entertaining.

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#14 Posted by Morpheus_ (34431 posts) - - Show Bio

@shroudofsorrow: It's more contextual than anything. Bucky is madly in love with Natasha while she has lost virtually all memories of him. That isn't an exaggeration - it's the way Brubaker's Winter Soldier concluded. Novokov abducted her, erased her mind and then the only memories she was specifically unable to regain afterwards were those of Buck. Given their history I don't think it's even poor writing, just two heavily emotional characters more or less freezing in the face of someone they truly cared about.

I won't take anything away from her fight against Frank even though it was touch and go. Most of Nat's best feats are fairly recent, including her fights with Crossbones and Elektra.

@tdk_1997 said:

That was a great story btw. Very well told and entertaining.

It was quite good but I felt it went a bit downhill towards the end. Still a solid read.

I'm more bemused that no one is making a fuss about the fact that the Black Widow running around the Marvel universe currently isn't Black Widow, just one of her clones.

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#15 Posted by ANTHP2000 (26960 posts) - - Show Bio

@tdk_1997 said:

That was a great story btw. Very well told and entertaining.

It was quite good but I felt it went a bit downhill towards the end. Still a solid read.

I'm more bemused that no one is making a fuss about the fact that the Black Widow running around the Marvel universe currently isn't Black Widow, just one of her clones.

I always like the chemistry between Clint and Barnes, and I've read summaries of this run. Really gotta get into it sometime.

When you're saying that "no one" is making a fuss, are you talking about other characters or readers?

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#16 Posted by Morpheus_ (34431 posts) - - Show Bio

@anthp2000: Keep in mind that their chemistry in Tales of Suspense is very different compared to the more mature dynamic they display as New Avengers and comrades in Brubaker's Captain America. They are both more immature and slightly scornful in ToS, whereas they respected and even liked one another, engaging in playful banter in training prior to it.

Both. Imagine Cap, Tony, Spidey, Thor verifiably dying, then being replaced by a heroic clone. Then the clone assumes the original's place and is even given an on-going without any real plans for the original's return. Hell, Spidey had his clone take over while he was very much alive and the backlash was strong at the time. I'd say Nat is simply not popular enough and Marvel has swept her death under the carpet hoping no one will notice.

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#17 Posted by DaSalvadore (332 posts) - - Show Bio

@thespartanb345t said:

All 3 are decisively above her.

The gap between widow and wolverine is probably a bit ridiculous

A Logan who remembers everything, actually uses his skills and isn't playing around should beat Widow 7 or 8 times out of 10 minimum. Not a whitewash by any means but the talent and skills Wolvering should use in his fights is up there with the highest level of fighters. Nat's skills come in that she's not only highly skilled but also trained to take out those stronger/faster/whatever above her. On the flip side, she should technically be able to decimate Punisher more than half the time. Frank is mostly about his guns.

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#18 Posted by King-Ragnar (3861 posts) - - Show Bio

Nat isn't above Frank, at least not by such a margin that people are making it sound like. Her win over Bucky is laughable and her only win above Wolverine was in a sparring match. Besides that, Buck and Logan are well above her.

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#19 Posted by TheSpartanB345T (4019 posts) - - Show Bio

@dasalvadore: Frank is better both physically and with guns. Even skill-wise he is a decent margin above her.

His pain tolerance is insane, as well as his accuracy and ability to contend with people like Daredevil and Bullseye.

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#20 Posted by Thorthunder98 (6679 posts) - - Show Bio

Death battle is as credible as any random CV user saying who wins a battle, they're just fans putting their opinions out and often providing false information which people seem to take as fact for some reason.

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#21 Posted by DaSalvadore (332 posts) - - Show Bio

@thespartanb345t: As I said, technically she should be above him. She's been around for a long time, is physcially enhanced and has incredible training. Castle has pushed himself as far as humanly possible and should probably be considered the one of the most Captain America level skilled non-adjusted humans in Marvel. But for me, Nat's adjustments and how long she's been in the game as well as Frank's seemingly heavy reliance on weapons/tech should mean she beats him.

I see it like this; Frank doesn't consistently use his H2H to the same extreme Nat does. It's like an MMA fighter who spends hours in the gym perfecting their craft but who fights on a boxing scedule (once or twice a year only) compared to one who is almost always in the ring fighting actual opponants.

But I'm in no way saying she should be able to smash him. I'm saying I think she should be able to come out on top more than he would.

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#22 Edited by shroudofsorrow (5812 posts) - - Show Bio

Death battle is as credible as any random CV user saying who wins a battle, they're just fans putting their opinions out and often providing false information which people seem to take as fact for some reason.

Eh, I think they're right a lot more often then any old CV user. They've been wrong before, but I also do think that many of their verdicts are fair and legitimate, including this most recent one.

Nat isn't above Frank, at least not by such a margin that people are making it sound like. Her win over Bucky is laughable and her only win above Wolverine was in a sparring match. Besides that, Buck and Logan are well above her.

So she won that sparring match? I always thought it was an even fight.

@shroudofsorrow: It's more contextual than anything. Bucky is madly in love with Natasha while she has lost virtually all memories of him. That isn't an exaggeration - it's the way Brubaker's Winter Soldier concluded. Novokov abducted her, erased her mind and then the only memories she was specifically unable to regain afterwards were those of Buck. Given their history I don't think it's even poor writing, just two heavily emotional characters more or less freezing in the face of someone they truly cared about.

I won't take anything away from her fight against Frank even though it was touch and go. Most of Nat's best feats are fairly recent, including her fights with Crossbones and Elektra.

I'm aware of Widow losing her memories of him. In that case, it's CIS on Bucky and Barton's part rather then PIS on the writer's part. Still not legit.

As for Elektra, I've always viewed that as blatant PIS. Widow has lost to Bullseye, Lady Bullseye, and Daredevil, and been challenged by Punisher, Silver Sable, and Diamondback. While fresh. The Widow who fought Elektra was not at the top of her game. Elektra meanwhile has beaten Bullseye under negative conditions, beaten Lady Bullseye, and consistently done better against Daredevil then Nat has. So that right there should point in the direction of Elektra being a better fighter. Then there's her doing well against Taskmaster and beating Cape Crow. There is no way someone of that skill level should be stalemated by a Black Widow not at the top of her game. That it happened in Widow's book makes me further inclined to view it as PIS.

I can see her being able to take Crossbones though, who I honestly think is a bit oversold sometimes.

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#23 Posted by deactivated-5cc073360931e (791 posts) - - Show Bio

@shroudofsorrow: In widow most recent fight with Lady bullseye she win and the part of her lossing to bullseye was because the plot needed a victim for Daredevil to save

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#24 Posted by jayskee (4843 posts) - - Show Bio

She’s above frank but Bucky has already beaten her. Wolverine is above her too.

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#25 Posted by shroudofsorrow (5812 posts) - - Show Bio

@shroudofsorrow: In widow most recent fight with Lady bullseye she win and the part of her lossing to bullseye was because the plot needed a victim for Daredevil to save

No, it's because Bullseye is just better. Both he and LB (who are considered equal in skill by DD and have indeed each challenged him to roughly the same degree), have beaten Nat, and Bullseye is close enough to DD in skill based on their numerous close fights that the notion of him beating Black Widow is not outrageous at all. Especially when it was a better fight then Daredevil's fight with her. So trying to dismiss it as "because of the plot" doesn't work.

As for her most recent fight with Lady Bullseye, if it took place after her fight with Elektra, then it doesn't really change my assessment, as Widow up to that point was still below both of the Bullseyes. And again, Nat wasn't even at top strength when she stalemated a woman who has a better track record against the same opponents and also better ones like Cape Crow. So to me at least, it's a low showing for Elektra. If Lady Bullseye, Bullseye, and Daredevil are all capable of beating a fresh Black Widow, then she shouldn't be able to when not at her best stalemate someone who has beaten all three of those individuals (and in Bullseye's case doing so while injured and drugged). I also think doing well against Taskmaster is a much better feat then being stalemated by Diamondback or Silver Sable, and beating Cape Crow is much better than beating Clint Barton, or even Punisher.

I still consider Elektra to be above Widow by at least a full tier, while Punisher is about equal to her, give or take. The fact that people on this thread have come out supporting each lends credence to the idea that they're close and its debatable who would win.

Nat isn't above Frank, at least not by such a margin that people are making it sound like. Her win over Bucky is laughable and her only win above Wolverine was in a sparring match.

May I please have scans of that?

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#26 Posted by TDK_1997 (18675 posts) - - Show Bio

@morpheus_: The thing is I never actually finished the miniseries. All I left was the last two issues, but from what I read from the book the characterization was on point and so was the story.

Is that clone still running around?

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#27 Posted by TheSpartanB345T (4019 posts) - - Show Bio

@dasalvadore: An on-paper battle is different, but feats-wise Frank would beat her in a battle.

She wouldn't even close the distance before getting shot in the head.

H2H Frank is stronger and more durable, nearly as skilled, and has much better pain tokerance to contend. Even in a H2H battle Frank beats her for a majority, as she isn't fast enough to avoid all of his blows and his attacks are more lethal, meaning he'd be able to put her down rather quickly.

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#28 Posted by Supermanthor (18992 posts) - - Show Bio
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#29 Edited by MorbusGrav (1192 posts) - - Show Bio

Widow can be arguably above Frank depending on the situation, but is nowhere near the other 2.

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#30 Posted by shroudofsorrow (5812 posts) - - Show Bio

@morbusgrav: Ah, sweet, you've got Payback as your avatar. I know it's off-topic, but I just had to call attention. That's a character who I don't think ever got enough recognition myself.

Also, I agree with your statement; Widow is about on par with Punisher but below WS and Wolverine.

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#31 Posted by MorbusGrav (1192 posts) - - Show Bio

@morbusgrav: Ah, sweet, you've got Payback as your avatar. I know it's off-topic, but I just had to call attention. That's a character who I don't think ever got enough recognition myself.

Also, I agree with your statement; Widow is about on par with Punisher but below WS and Wolverine.

So true, i don't think i've ever seen just a single thread involving Ed here.