Goku vs Superman - There can never be a winner.

Now, before I begin trying to explain what I understand about both franchises, I will admit, whilst I adore both characters, there are undoubtedly more holes in my Superman knowledge. This doesn't really matter however as my purpose here is to explain why you can't compare feats and achievements from the DC verse and the DBZ verse.

First of all when it comes to comparing everything that is considered 'canon', Superman straight away has the advantage, he has been fighting the good fight for 75 years, he is the original super hero and is a world wide icon. He also has the privilege of having multiple incarnations and a plethora of different writers with a plethora of different interpretations of his power. Anything considered 'canon' for Goku however all stems from one mind and progresses in a linear fashion from start to finish. Superman fans have the advantage of drawing from all of Superman's greatest feats in 75 years, whilst anything considered a weak showing can be put down to 'bad writing'.

Another advantage in Superman's corner comes in the structure of comics themselves, they are different from the manga which Goku heralds from. Comics always conveniently explain exactly what is happening in a lot of scenes, "Superman is travelling this fast...he's lifting this much...he just punched Darkseid in the face with this exact amount of force..." No version of Dragonball does this to such an extent, so numbers and abilities are left to speculation by comparing Goku's earlier feats and estimating what he should be capable of later on, which is sketchy at best.

Another common problem comes when people argue that Superman has sneezed away solar systems and moved planets and punched reality in the face and it's suggested that Goku has never done these things, so therefore he can't do them. Superman has had 75 years of story and feats, Goku with his one linear story line has never had reason to destroy a planet, why would he?

What also seems to be completely misunderstood is the destructive power of ki, now people are always trying to work out numbers, (Superman has survived such and such megatons of blast force whereas Goku has only survived this much) that kind of thinking can not be applied to ki, it's like magic, a force made of will and a person's character, it can't be quantified. In Dragonball it's not about the size of the explosion, but the intensity of the blast. For example, we know that Master Roshi can destroy the Earth's moon with a power level of 139, however, if he had used that attack on Raditz, the saiyan would be left completely unscathed standing in a moon sized crater. Piccolo's Makankōsappō (special beam canon) only destroyed the side of a mountain, but it cut through Raditz like butter, because it had a higher level of power. Frieza's attack didn't destroy Namek straight away because he held back his blast in order to not get caught up in the explosion of his ki, NOT the explosion of the planet which he proved he could handle even when exhausted, cut in half and partially melted by Goku's blast. He also needed to be quick to avoid Goku stopping the attack. That whole 'can Kid Buu destroy a galaxy or can Cell destroy a solar system' debate, doesn't matter, because it's not about the size of the explosion. Superman is certainly smaller than both. Ki is not heat or concussive force it is just...well...ki!

Now for speed, yes we know Superman is fast, really fast, but we can't definitively know if Goku can keep up or not. Before the whole "Superman traveled from here to here this fast and Goku only travelled from here to here this fast" is mentioned, I strongly believe that flight speed does not play a major role in fight speed. We can even apply it to real life. Usain Bolt is the fastest sprinter in the world, but is he as fast at fighting as Bruce Lee? Or Muhammad Ali? I doubt it. Plus, people use the anime to judge how fast Goku is fighting, the anime is supposed to entertain, they have to show the fight to us and the characters have to converse, that doesn't mean those fighters are moving as slowly, talking as slowly or charging their attacks for as long as they seem to be in the show, but it would be boring if Goku said "kamehameha", had a difficult fight with Cell, realised he couldn't win and then gave up all in the blink of an eye! In Dragonball krillin and Master Roshi fought, played Rock Paper scissors and engaged in germ warfare, all too fast for Yamcha a SUPER human to keep up with. That's with a power level of less than 100, when goku fought Frieza he was at 150000000 and everything after that is speculation. When Goku fought Cell, only Gohan could keep up. The point is, the later fights don't LOOK any faster than early Dragonball, but we know that they of course are much faster, but we need to see them to enjoy the show. I know Superman has awesome reaction and combat speed too, but my point is they can't be easily compared. We do know however that Master Roshi with a power level of 139 could catch bullets from a machine gun at point blank range.

As for durability, I know that Superman is an absolute tank, he can unquestionably survive countless megatons of force. But I still have no idea how he would handle ki attacks because, as I said before, ki just doesn't work that way, whether it makes physical sense or not. A frequent argument against Goku's durability is he didn't survive the explosion that destroyed King Kai's planet. Well, it was the ki energy from Cell's exolosion that destroyed him, not the planet blowing up. As for whether or not Goku's punches would hurt Superman, well, power equals mass times speed, so it depends on combat speed again. But when Goku attacked Recoome, it seemed to show that he augments all his striking blows with ki energy anyway, so again, completely unquantifiable.

Superman's lifting strength is unparalleled, there's no doubt about that, I personally believe that if Superman got hold of Goku that would be all she wrote. However, Goku deserves more credit for his strength, that forty tons thing is ridiculous, he lifted a car when he had a power level of 10 and took a bullet to the face. General Tao in Dragonball threw a pillar miles across the planet and killed another super human with his tongue. He lifted and dragged what in reality would be much more than 40 tons multiple times in Dragonball as a child. The Vegeta gravity chamber feat shows that Vegeta (and therefore Goku) can practice combat at super fast speeds under intense gravity and before anyone says well that isn't that impressive it's only 500 times body weight, I don't think gravity works quite that way, remember the Sun only has about 27 times the Earth's gravity. Plus it wouldn't just be their bones and muscles that would suffer, their internal organs would have to work harder too. Human's couldn't survive in two times gravity for long due to the strain on our hearts.

Let me reiterate, I love both franchises and characters (although Vegeta is a much better character than Goku) I do not back either one in the fight, because I have no idea who would win and there is no way to figure it out.

That.. doesn't count as a battle..

True. Where should I have put it then?

General Discussion probably.

or off topic

Ask a Mod to move it.

totally, Vegeta is awesome

Oh, there can be a winner. There is. But the other side will never accept it.

I like Supes more so he wins.

I see what you're saying but whats stopping Superman from dodgeing the attack? In terms of speed Goku is faster because of the instant kamehameha move and he's traveled past solar systems in less than a second but he needs to focus so this is a 50/50 who's faster. We see them fighting at normal speed in DBZ but the untrained eye wouldn't find them.The problem is the motion for the attack and move itself couldn't keep up with Superman. Strength? Superman gets this Goku is just a normal guy without ki. Superman can sneeze away solar systems well Bills took a chunk outta the universe. I'm waiting to see what ssjg3 Goku is capable of.Side note : I don't think they treat DBZ fairly they train in sun like gravity daily so they should be much faster and stronger but alot of people ignore little things like that' im sure Superman can do that also no problem but its a little hard to know since he gains strength from it.

Goku is technically the winner if you think about

Akira Nerf Dragonball Z after Freeza saga to make it more view able for the viewers and filled the whole DBZ with plot after plot. Goku Base in Nameke Saga was already Speed of light and Able to destroy planets and even more and had Planet busting durability. Even at Budokai When Adult gohu vs Tien there where moving so fast even krillin had trouble hearing them (Krillin is superhuman, his so fast as a kid that him and master roshi move so Quick that the viewer didn't see anything what happened and a much stronger krillin had trouble hearing Goku and tien fight) While in cell saga the camera can keep up with Goku and Cell.

The only guys in DBZ that shown awesome Marvel/DC feats that a lot others can do are (Yes most of these feats are anime since DBZ doesn't really produce any in manga)

- Buuhan (able to destroy the universe with pure power by crushing dimensions together, It not Blast but still classified as universe busting)

- Vegito ( His base is stronger then Buuhan because buuhan states he was toying with him and then goes SSJ which is 50x of base) Vegito Feats are having universal durability (as after he knocked down Buuhan form Trying to destroy the universe he offered Buuhan to use that attack on Him) and Can destroy the universe seeing how his far more then 50x greater then Buuhan

- Broly (literally the only DBZ character that shows a complete box even thought his nothing to Goku EOZ,Buuhan or vegito, he Shows his durability feats, Strength feats, Destruction feats and speed feats) Destruction feats are tearing up a galaxy in his weakest SSJ stated (most like can one shot the galaxy in his LSSJ stated in Movie 10 since his miles above his weakest SSJ state) Shown to have strength capable of crushing a saiyan space pod (Dont be fooled by this feat, A saiyan space pod can Withstand an impact of 2.63 the speed of light without breaking (as it flys 3 light years in 1 hour) yet Broly crushes it with his bare hands) Creating meteor crates with his bare hands and Shaking a planet and also creating a deep hole (most likely to the core seeing how deep it was) by jumping up and down. His durability feats are Not worrying about dying form a planet explosion and a comet impact ( the comet is 10 times bigger then the planet) and able to get no physical damage form a Blast that has the force of 138x the speed of light. And his Reacting speed is >>>>>138x the speed of light since he can release 3 Ki blast and a shield before getting hit with the kamehameha (Kamehameha went form Earth to sun in 6 secs) he never shown his speed

- Janemba (Wrecked the after life and all the dimensions in the universes and in creation)

To be honest, I don't think they are comparable. But, I would say the one thing that I am relatively certain of is Superman's superior lifting (and therefore grappling) strength, so I would give him the majority win based solely on that. To beat him Goku would have to fight smart from the off, and he's not exactly known for that. I reckon a cool headed Vegeta may stand a better chance, but maybe that's just because I'm a massive Vegeta fan and I'm tired of seeing him get smacked around until Goku swoops in and saves the day.

Superman's feats are on-panel and not up for debate (if it is shown that he crossed our solar system in two minutes, then it happened, end of story). Sure, there's CIS and PIS (in the For Tomorrow story, Superman fails to catch bullets while self-proclaiming to be faster than bullets), but more or less you get the feel of what he can do when he is or isn't serious in a fight (high and low-end feats). Also, most civilized and rational debaters will tell you what version of Superman is being used: Golden Age, Silver Age, Modern Age, and the most recent one, the New 52. Each generation has its own feats that can ONLY be used with THAT particular generation/incarnation of Superman. Something Superman did in the Silver Age (basically the most ridiculously OP'ed one) does NOT APPLY to Superman in the New 52: they are from completely different universes (which is where DC's big reboots like Crisis on Infinite Earths and Flashpoint come in).

The reason why there seemingly isn't an "answer" and why flame wars often happen when discussing Dragon Ball Z (or basically ANY Dragon Ball character versus another western comics heavy hitter) is because of all the speculation of their (DBZ character's) abilities. People throw around ALL THE TIME "Goku is many times FTL" or "Broly can tank a galaxy busting attack", or other such things when they simply were never stated, suggested, or shown outright. Yet they assume they can based on the DBZ characters' ability to cause severe destruction on a planetary (in some fewer cases, solar system-ish) level. However, as it is shown plenty of times in comics, just because a character is capable of extreme strength/power, they are not necessarily that great in all areas: case in point, Thor. Yes he probably has close to incalculable strength and durability and has, literally, godly power in his lightning (you know, by being the God of Thunder): but the number one thing exploited against him on this site is his fighting speed. It is often described as not being at lightspeed or above - some speculate it's not even hypersonic. Why? There are simply no on-panel feats describing, or even suggesting he is capable of such action. Even despite his ability to FLY at faster-than-light speeds, people (myself included) will NOT give him fighting speed on the same level. Thor is very much capable of destroying planets in a single, mighty swing of Mjolnir (Beta Ray Bill, who has the EXACT same powers as Thor, has done this in an attempt to starve Galactus), but that does NOT mean Thor is as fast as, say, Silver Surfer.

Some people mistakenly adopt an attitude of "pics or it didn't happen." Certainly there are cases where, as an extension of a character's ability, they could achieve something they haven't TECHNICALLY done themselves, such as the aforementioned ability of Thor to bust a planet to pieces with Mjolnir. Other cases could simply include narration: Superman has admitted (in the Modern Age at least) that Martian Manhunter was the most powerful being on the planet, with the same (roughly) powers as Superman, and then some. However, it was not often (or perhaps at all) that MMH ever exhibited such amazing power equaling Superman. Sure, he used his telepathy a lot (some argue TP was his trademark power alongside shape-shifting), but he didn't go around brawling around with his fists using his planetary strength unless he had to. However, it is understood that MMH has similar, if not greater strength than Superman. That being said, Superman will always get the strength advantage simply because he has more on panel strength/lifting feats than pretty much everyone.

Therefore, without stated feats or real life comparisons in DB and DBZ, all of their fighting speed, strength, and durability is in the dark and left to speculation. Sure most DBZ characters are beyond supersonic, but that doesn't mean they are lightspeed. Goku can dish out planet-destroying ki attacks and can take planet busting ki attacks - but what about a punch that has no ki at all behind it and with its pure strength could knock the moon out of orbit? Can Ki block non-ki attacks? Could we make the leap that Cell is capable of such strength feats when most battles in DBZ are reduced to ki beam struggles and attacks? How fast are ki attacks? Are they somehow super-luminous in atmosphere? Can someone without Ki block a Ki attack? All of these questions are VERY difficult to answer perhaps impossible, yet they are absolutelycritical when it comes to a randomized one on one battle. As a result of this convoluted assumptions, debates devolve into a fan-boy flame war of idiotic proportions (which is why those debates in the battles section are now banned......again).

Exactly, almost no aspect of Gokus abilities is quantifiable. If you only count actual feats, Goku is not even in the conversation. If you try power scaling or A>B>C logic, Goku can come in from maybe being barely capable of lfting a bus, all the way up galaxy destroying abilities (a level NO DBZ character has EVER SHOWN, purely based on deeply flawed logic).

Superman is the winner. For all the crap the Death Battle gets from DBZ fans, its AS CLOSE to a scientific/objective comparison as you can get.

Based on what ive seen, as a huge DBZ fan, I literally believe Superman could kill him with a single hit, before Goku could respond at all.

@deaditegonzo: Well, Goku has now shown to punch through a small planet about a million times more dense compared to eath, by a shockwave only, and his combat speed is, downright scary, not to mention that death battle had kryptonite affected superman surviving ssj 2 goku's punch, and goku using a senju bean against a single opponent, so even unrelated to reason, I didn't find it very credible. But all those are the same things repeated, so let's not continue the discussion here lol. We could do that in pm if you like

@deaditegonzo: You do know how nerfed goku was in Death battle

They compare his base form Saiyan saga (Dr gero Bomb) to EOZ Base when EOZ base is SSJ3 tier form Fighting enrage Uub. Even base Buu saga Goku is stronger then Piccolo is >>>>>>SSJ goku Android Saga

Not to mention the SSj4 multiplier, 10x is LOL worthy. How can SSj4 be 10x of SSj3

SSJ4 goku is 10x of Super baby 2 since his equaled with Great ape baby who (going great ape is 10x of the user) and Super baby 2 Stomped the holy Salad out of SSj3 goku. He could easily be 3-5x stronger seeing how quickly he dispose SSJ3 goku

So Going SSJ4 should be 30-50x of SSJ3 not 10x as that doesn't even make sense

Death battle Didn't calculate goku properly, Not to mention that didn't even take his moves Seriously like dragonfist. Which one shot Super 17 who is stronger then SSj4 goku

@princearagorn1: The animated part of the Death Battle is purely for entertainment purposes only. In all actuality, if they were going off of the calculations they were making, the actual battle would be severely shorter and not as fun to watch because Superman would utterly destroy Goku.

@cardle_grave: DBGT is usually known for it's severe inconsistencies, but I think Death Battle deserves some props for even being able to come up with a method to attempt to calculate these things. There was a response forum on screwattack describing how even if you multiplied all of Goku's calculated stats by a billion, he still doesn't physically compare to Superman.

There is a great blog by one of our mods, jloneblackheart, that describes the very problem that I merely expanded on earlier. Check it out.

well, I agree that it is only for entertainment only.. I'm on Goku's side though.

Superman's feats are on-panel and not up for debate (if it is shown that he crossed our solar system in two minutes, then it happened, end of story). Sure, there's CIS and PIS (in the For Tomorrow story, Superman fails to catch bullets while self-proclaiming to be faster than bullets), but more or less you get the feel of what he can do when he is or isn't serious in a fight (high and low-end feats). Also, most civilized and rational debaters will tell you what version of Superman is being used: Golden Age, Silver Age, Modern Age, and the most recent one, the New 52. Each generation has its own feats that can ONLY be used with THAT particular generation/incarnation of Superman. Something Superman did in the Silver Age (basically the most ridiculously OP'ed one) does NOT APPLY to Superman in the New 52: they are from completely different universes (which is where DC's big reboots like Crisis on Infinite Earths and Flashpoint come in).

The reason why there seemingly isn't an "answer" and why flame wars often happen when discussing Dragon Ball Z (or basically ANY Dragon Ball character versus another western comics heavy hitter) is because of all the speculation of their (DBZ character's) abilities. People throw around ALL THE TIME "Goku is many times FTL" or "Broly can tank a galaxy busting attack", or other such things when they simply were never stated, suggested, or shown outright. Yet they assume they can based on the DBZ characters' ability to cause severe destruction on a planetary (in some fewer cases, solar system-ish) level. However, as it is shown plenty of times in comics, just because a character is capable of extreme strength/power, they are not necessarily that great in all areas: case in point, Thor. Yes he probably has close to incalculable strength and durability and has, literally, godly power in his lightning (you know, by being the God of Thunder): but the number one thing exploited against him on this site is his fighting speed. It is often described as not being at lightspeed or above - some speculate it's not even hypersonic. Why? There are simply no on-panel feats describing, or even suggesting he is capable of such action. Even despite his ability to FLY at faster-than-light speeds, people (myself included) will NOT give him fighting speed on the same level. Thor is very much capable of destroying planets in a single, mighty swing of Mjolnir (Beta Ray Bill, who has the EXACT same powers as Thor, has done this in an attempt to starve Galactus), but that does NOT mean Thor is as fast as, say, Silver Surfer.

Some people mistakenly adopt an attitude of "pics or it didn't happen." Certainly there are cases where, as an extension of a character's ability, they could achieve something they haven't TECHNICALLY done themselves, such as the aforementioned ability of Thor to bust a planet to pieces with Mjolnir. Other cases could simply include narration: Superman has admitted (in the Modern Age at least) that Martian Manhunter was the most powerful being on the planet, with the same (roughly) powers as Superman, and then some. However, it was not often (or perhaps at all) that MMH ever exhibited such amazing power equaling Superman. Sure, he used his telepathy a lot (some argue TP was his trademark power alongside shape-shifting), but he didn't go around brawling around with his fists using his planetary strength unless he had to. However, it is understood that MMH has similar, if not greater strength than Superman. That being said, Superman will always get the strength advantage simply because he has more on panel strength/lifting feats than pretty much everyone.

Therefore, without stated feats or real life comparisons in DB and DBZ, all of their fighting speed, strength, and durability is in the dark and left to speculation. Sure most DBZ characters are beyond supersonic, but that doesn't mean they are lightspeed. Goku can dish out planet-destroying ki attacks and can take planet busting ki attacks - but what about a punch that has no ki at all behind it and with its pure strength could knock the moon out of orbit? Can Ki block non-ki attacks? Could we make the leap that Cell is capable of such strength feats when most battles in DBZ are reduced to ki beam struggles and attacks? How fast are ki attacks? Are they somehow super-luminous in atmosphere? Can someone without Ki block a Ki attack? All of these questions are VERY difficult to answer perhaps impossible, yet they areabsolutelycritical when it comes to a randomized one on one battle. As a result of this convoluted assumptions, debates devolve into a fan-boy flame war of idiotic proportions (which is why those debates in the battles section are now banned......again).

I completely agree and there in lies my point. I would give the win to Superman because we have a more definite idea of his power and what he could achieve with those powers, whether it be to move planets or cross a solar system in the blink of an eye, all to support specific stories and events. Dragonball was never about diverse abilities or even stories, it was all about one on one, intense fighting with great action. The plot was very simplistic and often a bit dumb, but it has to be with the way ki power works in that universe. It basically goes fight - lose - train - win, rinse and repeat, that doesn't stop me enjoying the great fight scenes and badass characters (Vegeta), especially considering when it was animated. Who would win in a fight a) doesn't matter and b) can just come down to your preference and whatever conclusion you come to and however you arrive there, is fine. Just don't disrespect another person's argument, because in the end, you'll never change their opinion on something like this anyway.

Akira mentioned that SSJ was x100 and was only used at x50 for the fight with Frieza due to Goku already being drained of so much Ki.
But I agree with the SSJ4 being more then x10 thats a made up number anyway and SSJG is completely unknown potentially anywhere from x100 to x1000

Also the sneezing solar systems out was ONLY after he was given more power by a Fifth Dimensional Imp so that was not his normal. Modern superman has only moved the world with aid from others showing he has a CLEAR limit to his strength.

I don't hate superman I hate his fanbois, they pretty much think he is the most powerful and ignore when he has been bloodied or worse by far weaker foes. They do not give credit to the character they simply show the highest possible feat even if it involves outside aid and claim that as his normal levels. We have seen in multiple issues him being at least KOed by a Nova, and the explosion of the planet he was on. And him fleeing from a Nova that the narration tells use through Jonathan Kent's view and from the reaction of Superman is correct that it would kill him. Setting his durability at a low grade Nova (Some stars can have multiple novas over their life cycle so this is not a full Super Nova).

I also do not understand why people don't trust DB/Z/GT but take anything that DC's narration or its characters say at face value. If Cell says he can destroy a solar system and he has proven at this point he is around as strong as SSJ2. So why would he lie.. if he couldn't bust a solar system with this attack who cares why would be boost about it? Most there can survive a planet buster if not higher.

But if Superman says "Oh I flew from here to there in this many seconds"It is considered gospel fact.

It shows that most comic fans simply hate anything outside of their fandom and refuse to see anything else as having worth.

Something that is often misunderstood is the way DBZ characters power increases with power levels. Double the power level does not mean double the strength/speed etc, it seems to be more than that. For example Cui's power level of 18000 could not scratch Vegeta's 24000. You'd think that an increase in one quarter of Cui's power wouldn't make Vegeta that much stronger, not to that extreme anyway, but it does. So when Goku goes Super Saiyan, whether his power level increases fifty fold or one hundred fold, that doesn't make him one hundred times as strong or fast, it could be much, much more. But, as usual with Dragonball, we don't know for sure, so we can't just assume he matches Superman. I don't think Supes would have an easy time with Goku, but if other people do, I'm fine with it. You have to remember when Akira Toryama wrote Dragonball, whilst he clearly took great inspiration from the Superman mythos, he wasn't thinking "I need to make sure people know exactly what Goku can do, in case one day fan boys want to argue relentlessly about how he would fare in a fight with Supes".

Superman wins, what don't people understand about that? He's too quick for Goku to touch and he's strong enough to beat him into the ground. I like Goku, but Superman wins.

Have to disagree about this one. The characters used to be diverse, even if based on they created clones, afterimages, hypnotise, use pressure points and various styles, use telekinesis on a massive level, grow in size, and other things. The characters

but things changed and it got more about 'omg the new guy is so powerful he beats the old one without punching at all!! Go and train till you can beat him!! or why bother, they don't die without goku or gohan!' Only new techniques used in dbz are kaio ken, spirit bomb, and instant transmission. Not enough!

With a head like akira's, he could have made things so much better if he didn't just discard all versatility for raw power. Even new, some bills whom no one knew or bothered to mention comes and suddenlt causes crisis. Its just sad. T_T

Also, goku was inspired from 'journey to the west' IIRC..

Yeah, you're right, the abiliites are certainly diverse in Dragonball, then in Dragonaball Z all new abilities are Goku's and he opts to never teach them to anyone else. I just meant the way their abilities are applied to the story, they're always about combat. Superman uses his abilities in a variety of ways in a variety of different story situations.

Yeah I know, I just meant the Superman mythos clearly inspired the 'Super strong warrior from another planet' sci-fi aspect of Dragonball Z. Dragonball feels more like a folk lore adventure story, whereas Dragonball Z is pure science fiction.

Superman can never defeat Goku. Goku's abilities are not able to be placed into proper stats so a fight can never really be done.

We have quantifiable stats for Superman. How much he can lift, his durability, his speed, how hot his heat vision is, etc. But we have none of that with Goku. We can assume what his speed, strength, durability, etc actually are.

Lets put this in prospective for DC fans. Superman vs The Presence

Superman has all these feats, all these stats. And the Presence has none of those. Who wins?

The Presence who is basically GOD so the mentality of Feat It or It Doesn't Happen is flawed.

Goku from DB is inspired from Journey to the West. Dragonball Z is Scyfi but is not required to be a Superman story. There are plenty of other Scyfi stories before Superman. I mean Superman was inspired by John Carter.

Id say Goku can beat the superman that he vsed in Death battle but pre crisis superman kick him into another universe. The only goku i know that can stand against that kind of power is goku after 100 years training END of GT

You can't really hypothesize Goku's power at that point. Plus the GT power levels never made sense, after training for seven years in other world after dying in the fight with Cell, Vegeta implies that Goku is only slightly stronger than Gohan was when he was 11, "at least you're stronger than your son was against Cell". And whilst Gohan has weakened over the years and has gotten rusty, ssj2 Goku and Vegeta don't seem to be a ridiculous level above him. But then when GT starts (approximately 15 years after Goku fought Buu) Goku's base is now equal to his ssj3 form when he fought Buu. That would mean he'd have to have increased his base by 400 times in 15 years, when in other world he barely doubled it in seven years.

@perpetr8rmike: The Presence is out and out stated to be omnipotent. This is an entity that employs the Spectre, another omni type character. He has no "feats" to show, but it is otherwise explicitly (and obviously) suggested he is above everything. Even you pointed out that the Presence is essentially God without any "feats" necessary to show. Also, the Presence is in the same universe as Superman, so it's easier to compare the two. However Goku is a mortal hero with clear limits to his power, so in order to properly quantify them, we need the feats to back up any claims made of him.

For example, Person A states that Frieza's death beam shown killing Dende was as fast as light because Piccolo and the others couldn't see the attack while they are at least capable of sensing things much faster than sound ( i.e. Raditz calmy catching a bullet, Master Roshi catching multiple machine gun bullets). As Frieza is many thousands of times stronger than these people, Frieza could at least be firing at light speed. Therefore, Goku is faster than light because he blocked a barrage of Frieza's death beams with one hand. This would appear to be backed up by the manga and anime and isn't entirely illogical, so for some, they accept this.

However, Person B retorts that although Frieza's ki and therefore power level is much higher than Piccolo's and everyone else, speed and reaction time don't necessarily increase at the same rate. Person B argues that speed and such increase, just not at a rate that is as impressive as one might hope. Raditz catches a bullet traveling around 1500 meters/second. However, even after powering up so much, person B argues that Frieza's death beam "merely" travels at 110,000 meters/second (which is WELL over re-entry speed into Earth's atmosphere at around 9,000 m/s). It is vastly superior to a bullet in terms of speed (a little under 100x as fast, actually) and destructive capability, so it would warrant that it would be virtually undetectible by DBZ characters of the Namek Saga. But the speed of light is just under 300,000,000 meters per second. Just to compare with words (to make it easier on the readers) we're talking about 110 thousand versus 300 million meters per second (just as a reminder, all these numbers aside from the speed of light are purely hypothetical. I have no idea how fast Frieza's death beam travels, I'm just making a rhetorical point). So while Frieza's death beam travels at MUCH higher rate than a bullet, it doesn't justify a leap to say it is lightspeed, or so Person B argues.

The whole crux of this is that there is ABSOLUTELY NOTHING WHAT-SO-EVER ON PANEL to refute what person B argued. Nothing. There is no confirmation from the author, no narrative text boxes describing what is happening, no dialogue from the characters, seldom self proclamation (Cell stated at his Super Perfect state that he could destroy the solar system with his Kamehameha) to back anything up. Dragon Ball characters have VAST amounts of power perfectly capable of destroying planets without so much as yawning doing so (for some at least). Bravo. However, this does NOT translate into everything else being at the same All-Father level (and no, Kami is NOT a god. He is a Namekian, who have been shown to be able to hear everything). So could Goku take a punch capable of destroying small planets? Is he faster than light? Are his ki attacks faster than light capable of wiping out entire universes? The better question is, is there any evidence to back up any claims of him being capable of doing these things to begin with.

I completely see your logic here. I agree that the narration, the characters and what not do not specifically state. This was never needed in the story. Regardless of how fast the beam flew Dende dies. Now Frieza at this point is a multi time planet buster whos power at this point is well over 1,000,000 when currently most are dealing with foes around 24,000 and having trouble. Now yes nothing is said about how fast, strong, durable you get compared to your power level. But we see from Dragonball on that Goku even at the age of 12/13 is resistant to bullets not being harmed (Of course Dragonball was also more fantasy but it still holds) being shot by the girl who changes personalities with a sneeze. He and Krillin as Pre-Teens are shot with machine guns and not hurt. This makes one wonder, is it because he is a Saiyan? Well no because that was not thought of yet and Krillin is human.

It is then logical to go with what else makes them beyond normal. Ki usage. So it could be postulated that Ki can increase the durability of the user. What proof do we have? At this point Krillin is just a little kid 13 years old or so, the only thing separating him from the kid down the street is his martial arts training with Ki this is evidence, though not concrete but it is evidence implying that Ki usage makes the user more durable.

So when we judge speed, strength, etc we do have evidence that the rate does increase with Ki. The more Ki the more durable, stronger, faster, etc because you have more energy to use for these purposes. Now we do not have a formula for Ki to Strength growth or Power-Level to Ki ratio. We see feats and must judge ourselves.

In Dragonball Z Ki becomes even more important, though takes less creative forms then it did in Dragonball where it could be turned into a sticky substance, lightning, etc. It takes on the trait of 'typical' energy blasts seen in more modern scyfi. When Gohan is training Videl we actually do see that once a normal human (albeit a strong and well trained human) becomes superhuman through the learning of Ki let alone a mastery.

We see in Dragonball Z various blasts, balls, waves, beams, etc. Each has a shape, size, color, etc but it also has intensity. We see a small ball capable of releasing enough energy to blow up a mountain where a larger ball might only make a blast of a few feet deep crater. So know we can judge that not only can a person control their Ki to make themselves stronger, faster, and more durable but control the amount of energy they use in an attack thus their attacks and Ki abilities are not static constantly changing and growing with the user. This is why in the Saiyan Saga an energy attack does a good bit of damage but later when seen an energy blast that looks identical do massively more damage but be virtually the same attack in size, shape, and color.

Ki has no set amount to it, Solar Radiation can be judged and can be found to have a rate that we can point to. Ki is metaphysical energy and thus is only as strong as the person who creates it. This is why Goku is so powerful in the series his Ki is composed of his courage, sense of self, loyalty, etc and these things are unique to him and because of his personality, his sense of morality these are very strong. Not to mention the physical aspect of his saiyan physiology and martial arts background as we have heard many times in the show Goku's Ki if it where to go to high to fast could overload his body and kill him which means he could in reality create more Ki then his body would naturally form if he were not training and did not have the same personality.

This is why I claimed before it is IMPOSSIBLE to ever have Dragonball/Z/Gt/Movies vs a comic character. Comics handhold for lack of a better term. They give you definitive numbers and figures where as Dragonball and DBZ are more telling a story and don't care about those things.

So it becomes more a test of character over power set. Who is more of a hero. The alien who was born to a violent race of planet murderers who sent him off as a baby only a day old to kill off a race of people just so another alien race can buy the world. The alien through an accident loses this prerecorded instinct and is loved by an old man who teaches him right from wrong and ways of bettering himself. This young alien who when he meets a total stranger leaves with them to go adventuring and in turns makes friends for life with many people including many of his former enemies. The boy training all his life to simply better himself, to push himself beyond his limits just because he believes he should strive for that goal. The alien who was sent to kill saves the lives of innocent people from various monsters, dangers, evil, and as an adult has given his life more then once to save the world. He gives the alien monster who slaughtered his race a change to be redeemed even after the monster slew his life long best friend and attempted to murder his son as well.

Or

another alien, this time from a dieing world who was sent to earth to guide mankind. A savior of sorts, raised by Ma and Pa Kent, two wonderful average american farmers who loved and taught him right from wrong. The boy gains powers as he ages and uses them to save his home town, then the big city and then the world. Has saved the world many times from many foes, has fought and fought his whole life without really having to sacrifice much he gets the world, saves the world, and is beloved by all. A hero no doubt whom only thinks of helping because it is the right thing to do.

Both are heroes there is no doubt. I find myself drawn to Goku because his is a story that tells you it doesn't matter how a man is born that makes him it is his life and choices. Even enraged, grieving and full of blood lust Goku still gives that change to Frieza, multiple times. He has spent his life working to get better at something that he could have ended years ago and still been so far above the rest. Training is his passion, saving the world is not his job he never claims to be a super hero. He protects the world because he loves it, because he often is the only one who can and he never thinks of himself. He gives his life to defeat his brother without a moments thought, he gives his life to keep cell from blowing up the planet when Gohan toys with him. I find him a better hero, I find his story more interesting.

Superman is a great hero but his story is drab at times. He has never had to make those hard calls. He always gets the girl, always saves the day, and more often then night is the reason the Justice League wins a fight but again without sacrificing anything. There is no cost to Superman being a hero nothing he has had to give up in order for the greater good to prevail. Superman is a hero in the theoretical sense. If one where to take a group of people whom has never heard of him and asked them to design their most basic idea of a hero. This is what he is, he is the archtype of the heroic man, but with little underpinning that makes him more 3 dimensional. At least to me.

I agree with the majority of your post about how the two cannot be compared in terms of power, but as for character, I don't think Goku is better. The most popular and interesting super heroes are the ones whose weakness is their humanity. Superman has more ups and downs and fears than Goku. From Dragonball to the end of Z, Goku is the perfect, shining example of righteousness and he doesn't change or develop at all. As for his sacrifices, yeah, I'll give you the first one, but when he died against Cell he already knew he would go to heaven and get to keep his body. At the conclusion of the Cell games he could have returned to Earth to be with his family, but he opted to stay dead. He didn't even show any remorse that he would not see his friends and family for a long time and became immediately excited about the prospect of fighting the greatest warriors of Other World. I am biased though because I love Vegeta, he has the most development turning from villain to hero. Plus, his sacrifice against Majin Buu is much more noble than Goku's because he knew he would go to Hell and not be able to keep his body. I reckon Superman is more interesting than Goku but not Vegeta.

Not to mention Vegeta's change came through choice, whereas Goku's metamorphosis came from brain damage.

Again that is my Opinion not stating Goku is better then Superman. I see what you mean and yes against Cell he does know this, but he still made the choice. Goku's personality isn't one to dwell on negative. So yes he died again, he did his part and left the world in the hands of his Son and Vegeta as well as Trunks who he knew would protect it. He in his mind did his duty to pass on the torch to another generation.

Superman has moved over for no one, Supergirl who should be on par with Superman is always treated as a joke, Superboy is so so depending on the version. I do not see though how you say Superman has a lot of change of development throughout his run. He doesn't seem to change much either.

I will give you Vegeta's story is better.

@perpetr8rmike: :o

Quite insightful b( ' v ' )d

@hart7668: I have no idea what that last part means lol

@perpetr8rmike: It's a thumbs up smiley b( ' . ' )b

What are you insaiyan ?

@hart7668: I 100% respect you for this. You say ki can't be measured true, but what we could do measure what has already been done. But, you are right though, there is no way to really tell what it could do.

In this sense, there actually CANNOT be a winner. Ki comes from ones mind, courage and will. The more Goku tries the higher his ki in a sense will go. And the more Superman is pushed the more mental blocks will be removed. Literally if they were to fight, it will go on forever, until Goku needs a snack(more like a restaurant.) and Superman needs some more sun.

Thanks very much.

There are a few things misunderstood here that I will bring up.

Both are from a different planet.

Superman and Goku were both evacuated from their, soon to be destroyed home planet. It was mentioned in the Man of Steel film (which is canon, and is based off a comic run) that Cal El's body is so strong because the sun and gravity is much more nourshing and lighter than on Krypton. This is the same case for Goku, and both have been shown at a young age that they could lift up vehicles, Superman pushing a bus from out of the water, and Goku lifting Bulma's car, and, keep in mind, Goku was around 11 years old at the time, whereas Superman was around 15 years old.

Strength.

With that being said, it doesn't matter whether we're talking about Ki or pure strength. Goku has been shot at with bullets at a young age, and it only just hurt him. We can expect the same for Superman at a young age, as he bent a steel fence pole out of anger when harrased by other boys. Goku doesn't always need to utilize Ki, as there is a state called Ultra Instinct in Dragon Ball Super. This is kind of unfair, but anyone can adapt to Ultra Instinct, and I mean anyone. UI was meant for the Gods of Destruction in DBS, and yet Goku, a mortal despite how strong he is, mastered a god level technique. Now, let's dig into UI. What are the feats? Instant natural reaction. No matter how strong the opponent, as shown with Goku vs Jiren before mastering UI, Jiren couldn't get past Goku's defense at all, unless he tapped into more of his strength, in which Goku would continue to later in the T.O.P. Ultra Instinct also enhances agility and speed plenty, and with Goku's speed already, you can only imagine how much it has been multiplied.

Weaknesses.

There aren't a lot, but we know Superman's weakness is Kryptonite, which we also know Batman has taken this inti advantage not just in the comics, but also animated films, and live action films as well. Though we don't expecg for Goku to know this. As for Goku, his only real weakness was his Saiyan tail, which was cut off way long ago. His only weakness now is himself. He constantly pushes himself more than he should. Going Super Saiyan increases the strain on his body, and Super Saiyan Blue exponentially utilizes more control and power, adding more strain. Not once, but twice has he used the Kaioken technique to enhance speed and power for both SSJ and SSJB, which adds double the strain. After pushing SSJBKaiox10 against Hit, he had a Ki Disorder for a few weeks at most. What the Ki Disorder did was made it incredibly diffucult for him to use his ki at all for anything, whether it be straight up fighting, flying, or even instant transmission. This weakness is still evident in the T.O.P as each time he went U.I. his power was drained greatly, and the last moment resulting in a large toll on his body. Aside from all that, all it means is he shouldn't be pushing himself.

I'm not favoring Goku over Superman, since I've been loving both for almost all of my life, but I'm just bringing up the ignored facts for Goku.

Sure there can be.

They fight, Goku beats up Superman via superior “feats”, and wins.