Gilgamesh (Fate/Extra CCC) Respect Thread

Avatar image for zgtfreak
#1 Edited by zgtfreak (3040 posts) - - Show Bio
No Caption Provided

Work In Progress

Not only is this my first respect thread, but I put it together quickly, so if you see any grammar mistakes or any other problems, that is why.

Biography

Gilgamesh, the great half-god, half-human king born from the union between the King of Uruk, Lugalbanda, and goddess Rimat-Ninsun. He ruled the Sumerian city-state of Uruk, the capital city of ancient Mesopotamia in the B.C. era. He was an ultimate, transcendent being so divine as to be two-thirds god and one-third human, and no others in the world could match him. He was a despot possessing high divinity who believed he was invincible. He is not merely a legend, and is said to have actually existed and ruled during the Sumer Dynasty five thousand years ago. He was the King of Heroes (英雄王, Eiyū-Ō?) who possessed all things in the world, whose tale is recorded in mankind's oldest epic poem, the Epic of Gilgamesh which portrays Gilgamesh as a hero, destined to be king and achieve great feats, who is driven to meet his destiny, facing challenges together with his best friend Enkidu.

His title, King of Heroes, is not meant to call him a king who is a hero, but instead implies that he is the king over all heroes. He is mankind's oldest hero, the origin of all myths and model on which heroes are based, so his story is copied within the mythologies of all the countries of the world. The heroes of various myths are derived from his legend, so his Gate of Babylon possesses all of their Noble Phantasms. Though there are numerous kings with titles such as the King of Knights or the King of Conquerors, he is the only one in all of heaven and earth crowned with the title of "King of All Heroes."

In the world of Fate/Extra, Gilgamesh is encountered by Hakuno Kishanami, a master in the Moon Cell Holy Grail War whom he decides to make a Servant contract with. Normally, it should be impossible for anyone to contact Gilgamesh in the Moon Cell, as he exist in the higher dimensional Far Side/Garden of The Fallen, where no ordinary being should be able to exist, however due to BB's reconstruction of the Far Side, it was made accessible to by ordinary beings.

Gilgamesh and Hakuno proceed on a long journey with many battles to stop the rampant A.I BB, who seeks to take control of the Moon Cell.

Terminology

We will go over basic terminology of the Nasuverse, just in case anyone is not too knowledgeable.

  • Reality Marble: The concept of a Reality Marble (固有結界, Koyū Kekkai?, Innate Bounded Field) is one that centers around the materialization and projection of one's inner world onto reality following the Thaumaturgical Theory World Egg (世界卵, Sekai Tamago?). Originally, it was an ability that daemons have as their Alien Common Sense (異界常識, Ikai Jōshiki?), but some people such as The Twenty-seven Dead Apostle Ancestors and the greatest of magi have made this ability available to use through a long time. The created worlds are completely cut off from normal reality, projecting their internal landscape and sealing off the regular World. Following the World Egg theory, the actualization of a Reality Marble is the result of switching the Self and the World while keeping the boundary the same. The size of the Self and the World is switched, enclosing the World in a small container while the Self is expanded. The contained World is the World Egg and the name of the theory. They will encase anyone within range, causing them to disappear from view.

So far, the biggest reality marble in the Nasuverse is the Moon Cell's, being far beyond what is classified as an infinite multiverse.

  • Noble Phantasm: Noble Phantasms (ノウブル・ファンタズム, Nouburu Fantazumu?), in Japanese literary called Precious Tools (宝具, Hōgu?) are "crystallized mysteries", powerful armaments made using the imagination of humans as their core, and weapons or abilities owned by Heroic Spirits. They are the embodiment of the ultimate mysteries of a hero that symbolizes one's existence through historical facts and anecdotes. They can be physical weapons, such as swords, lances, and bows, or support items, such as rings and crowns. They can also be abstract concepts, like unique abilities, unique means of attacks, curses, and changes to the environment and its physical properties. When summoned as Servants in the Holy Grail War, they are the trump cards of the heroes that allow them to overcome others in battle.

Due to Gilgamesh's Gate of Babylon and being the King of Heroes, he possesses every Noble Phantasm in history with very few exceptions, such as Hercules's God Hand.

  • Holy Grail: In Fate/Extra, the Holy Grail is actually what masters refer to as the Moon Cell or the Moon Cell's core, which can be used in a similar way to the original Holy Grail (although on a much higher level). The victor of the Holy Grail War has the privilege of entering the Moon Cell's core to grant a single wish, just like the original Holy Grail.

Cosmology

Nasuverse cosmology is quite unique, with planets being reality marbles themselves, the Throne of Heroes outside of space-time, ect; for this thread however, we will only be focusing on the higher dimensions of the Nasuverse and the Moon Cell's cosmology.

Higher dimensions in the Nasuverse are not talked about much, as most Nasuverse characters are planetary or lower in terms of power, however there is a little bit of information that seems to show (or at least heavily imply) that higher dimensions in the Nasuverse are completely superior to lower. I would like to also state that we are NOT using VSBattles dimensional tiering.

The first bit of information that seems to show higher dimensions are absolutely superior to lower is Saber/Arturia's Avalon, "Its function as a Noble Phantasm is an "absolute defense" that completely shields its user in the domain of the fairies, Avalon, the unreachable utopia that King Arthur dreamt of and was said to have gone to after her death. It is the greatest protection in the world that goes beyond defending or reflecting, completely isolating its user in a world completely separate from the regular world. The scabbard dissipates into countless tiny particles in the air and engulfs the user to become a "portable fortress" that shuts out all interference. It is the Bounded Field of the tranquil domain of fairies that keeps out all filth from the outside world, and allows nothing to harm the tranquil King that stands in the land of Avalon. The individual is shielded from all destructive interference in the physical realm, transliners from parallel worlds, and multidimensional communication as far as the sixth dimension. It is on the level of true magic, an actual true magic in itself, that transcends all magecraft, and not even the Five Magics can overcome the barrier" So based off this, Avalon seems to be a solid 6-D defensive Noble Phantasm. The only possible Noble Phantasm (that isn't from Fate/Extra) that can damage Avalon, is a full powered Enuma Elish from Gilgamesh, as it isn't simply an attack, but conceptually returns all to nothingness at full power (Saber's Avalon only blocked a casual Enuma Elish from an arrogant Gilgamesh in Fate/Stay Night).

Now onto Fate/Extra and the Moon Cell, which is far above even Avalon...

The Moon Cell is an object in Earth's solar system that simply observes the Earth. Despite it being a relatively small object in the solar system, with it's reality warping powers, the Moon Cell can create a virtual reality marble way beyond the size of a multiverse within its domain, despite its small physical size in the real world.

The Moon Cell's Far Side is anywhere from 5-D (stated to be higher dimensional, meaning above 4-D) to 7-D (it's description and properties seem far more impressive than Avalon's). "There also exists the Far Side of the Moon (月の裏側, Tsuki no Uragawa?), an imaginary space known as the trash bin that is used for storing malicious information and imaginary numbers. Sealed off as "Not For Use" information, it is a higher dimension where the light within the photon crystals is jumbled. It is the “exterior of the world”, and can be called the "Garden of the Fallen" built from imaginary numbers in contrast to the Near Side being a cell where the "light of heavenly fire" is imprisoned. Due to his power, Gilgamesh is not allowed to appear on the Near Side of the Moon, so he sleeps in the Far Side instead. Nothing else should be able to exist there because it is the territory of nil, and intelligent life forms should not be allowed or be able to exist there. It is not within normal time, allowing for a series of communications over eighteen days from Earth to take less than a microsecond within the timeframe of the Moon Cell."

As you can see, Gilgamesh in the world of Fate/Extra is so powerful that he exist in a higher dimensional void that is possibly above Avalon in his base form.

As for how ordinary beings begin to safely enter the Far Side... "Due to BB surfacing and gaining power as an Advanced A.I., she begins an extensive reconstruction and periods of resetting to work towards her goals. This allows for someone to contact Gilgamesh even when it should be impossible. The end result of her work is Cursed Cutting Crater, a real space in the present, past, and future. Establishing it as a "place", even Masters can exist there. It is not possible to hack the Moon Cell however much time is spent, but she is able to take control of it by placing herself in “unlimited time” through the power of the primordial goddesses she has taken into herself"

The Moon Cell has at least eight confirmed dimensions, as the barrier around the Moon Cell's core cuts through eight dimensions, and was only bypassed by BB's hacking abilities. "BB :: However…The Moon Cell is, you might say impudent, or that its defenses are flawless. Even though I managed to pass through the imaginary number space at the speed of light, a huge wall now stands before our devilish heroine BB-chan! It’s a perfectly spherical spirit particle defense wall that cuts through eight dimensions. It looks like it’ll be very hard to break down this wall. But this is the last move. After I break this wall into little pieces I’ll have reached my goal. So I’ve left all of you in Meltlilith’s care." So we know that the Moon Cell has eight dimensions considering one of its barriers cuts through that many dimensions. I do believe (despite no confirmed limit) that the Moon Cell caps out at eight dimensions, as the barrier BB is getting past is the final barrier before reaching the Moon Cell's core, meaning said barrier should logically be made with the Moon Cell's maximum power to prevent anyone from accessing its core.

However there is more to the Moon Cell's cosmology than just dimensions... Now to what actually exist within it's reality marble...

The Moon Cell containsinfinitefutures of the Earth somewhere in the Far Side; this alone should qualify as an infinite multiverse of some sort. You may say "but these are just infinite possibilities/futures of a planet, while a multiverse contains infinite universes", but keep in mind that ANYTHING of infinite size should be comparable to an infinite multiverse, not to mention these possible futures are stored in presumably, the higher dimensional Far Side, meaning you would need a being on that level to damage/destroy it (as we saw with Avalon blocking out anything up to the sixth dimension). You may also say "But they are POSSIBLE futures, meaning they don't exist", however the Moon Cell simulates and stores all of these possibilities, meaning they exist to some extent within the Moon Cell, "Rani :: The Holy Grail is an observational device that simulates the future of the Earth, and stores those records continuously, at regular intervals. It has been doing so since the beginning of human history. Though it is supposed, an infinity of futures are recorded here in the moon. To obtain the Moon Cell means to be able to search out the future you wish for from among all of those, and put it into effect." We learn from the above links from Twice that the possible futures are indeed infinite.

There is one possible infinite sized area in the Near Side of the Moon Cell (the lower dimensional areas where the Holy Grail War takes place) called the Infinite Chimeric Lunar Sea. It is the last floor of the Chimeric Lunar Sea with an unknown size. The playable area is limited in size, but that is because of the barriers that prevent the player from going further out. Despite being a name, Kinoko Nasu never tends to name things randomly for no reason, so I believe it to be infinite. Since this is my Respect Thread, I will be counting this realm as infinite, however if a name alone isn't enough for you, feel free to discard it in debates.

The Moon Cell is also capable of effecting the outside world.

The Power of Fate/Extra's Gilgamesh

Before we get to the main event, I'd like to state that Fate/Extra and Fate/Extra CCC have nothing to do with the main timelines of the Nasuverse and has an entirely different set of power levels for it's incarnation of all of these characters. The power of Fate/Stay Night Gilgamesh has nothing to do with Gilgamesh from Fate/Extra CCC. The timelines from Fate/Extra to other timelines are too different to powerscale from. I would also like to state that we are NOT using Fate/Extella, as despite being similar to Fate/Extra, has way too many different powerscaling contradictions, motives, backstory, and overall lore. The Moon Cell bestowing a regalia to Hakuno in Extella despite planning to delete her in Extra, and the fact that Extra and CCC's endings all make Extella impossible to happen is enough to prove that they are incompatible. I could go into many more reasons, but now is not the time.

Now onto the main event...

As we know, Gilgamesh in his base form (pre-Genesis Mystic Code) was able to live in a 5-D to possibly 7-D realm. Gilgamesh became much weaker during the beginning of Fate/Extra CCC however, partly due to his long sleep in the Far Side, but almost entirely due to making a contract with an incompetent master that had lost all of her memories. The Servant contract with Hakuno Kishinami made Gilgamesh go from a "absolute being" in her eyes, to getting smacked around by a "second-rate Servant." "While drifting in the space of imaginary numbers in the Far Side of the Moon, Hakuno encounters Gilgamesh in a weakened state. Gilgamesh tells Hakuno, who was frightened by the presence of an "absolute being", that she does not have the permission to look upon, question, or speak with him."

"Gilgamesh :: …still, this isn’t good. While it was a delight to experience the dilemmas of the weak, there is a limit to it. To be pushed about from start to finish by a second-rate Servant…it’s almost disheartening."

"Gilgamesh :: …hm. It’s true, how this weakening came about is some only I can know. There’s nothing else for it, wait a moment.

So saying, Gilgamesh snaps his fingers. As he does so, the air ripples as if boiling, and a drinking vessel appears. There’s no mistaking it, it’s wine and a wine glass.

Gilgamesh :: What, it’s a simple story. I have manifested as Servant in the same way as the other heroic spirits. On the theme of “participate in the Holy Grail War held by the Moon Cell.” But my power was too great. What the Moon Cell wanted was not the strongest Master, but the last surviving Master. If I had been present, the result would have been decided from the beginning, so I was not allowed to enter the Holy Grail War. Therefore, I was sealed on the far side of the moon.

—-! So, he was trapped over here, just like all of us have been…!?

Gilgamesh :: Of course not. Don’t put me on your level. I walked in here myself. Not a melee of seven mages, but 128 person formal tournament? It’s laughable. In a few words…the taste of desire becomes diluted. The Near Side’s Grail War would only drive me to edge with boredom. A carefully sculpted with no betrayal, no artifice, no fruitless exertions, that does not suit my tastes. So I abandoned the Near Side. All human evils are enclosed in the darkness of the Far Side of the moon — That murky, stagnant pool is much like the primordial chaos. And it has an excellent tranquility. So I made myself a sleeping chamber, and dozed off into dreams of decadence."

Gilgamesh blames himself alone for his weakened state, but we know that the power of Servants depends on their master, and he seems to imply making a Servant contract at all would weaken him. "That’s not Gilgamesh’s responsibility. While his physical condition did degrade during his long sleep, the original cause of it is my own failings. The reason we couldn’t do anything against Lancer was because I couldn’t provide sufficient back up or direction. It was my failure as a Master. Before I get back my memories, I need to retrain myself."

Throughout the game, Hakuno and Gilgamesh both train together, along with them defeating multiple Servants in the process, until they finally find BB once more. Apparently Gilgamesh throughout his training has hit universe level since he seems to imply he can stop BB's higher dimensional universe level attack (higher dimensional since the universe they are in is in the Far Side), however he most likely would need to use Ea to defend against such an attack. "

Gilgamesh :: Until the end of the universe? How generous of you. Then will you end the universe if she refuses? It wouldn’t be very balanced otherwise, would it?

Gilgamesh turns BB’s words against her provocatively. …if that’s any indication, he’s ready to shoot down BB on the spot. Looking at me and Gilgamesh like this,

BB :: Of course I will end it. If Hakuno Kishinami does not sever her contract with Gilgamesh, I will bring down all electrical power.

She’s saying she’ll destroy the universe. The girl in black announces it, not as a bluff or a metaphor, but as if it were natural.

Gilgamesh :: — Oh? You may have gone out of control, but you’re still a managerial AI. Aren’t you unable to kill Masters?

BB :: I do not presently have the right to kill Masters, but it is possible for me to make this sector collapse. I can end all of you and myself as well if necessary. This is the worst and final measure. I am prepared for complaints from all intelligent life in the solar system. Miss Hakuno Kishinami. I will propose it again. Please sever your contract with this Servant.

Gilgamesh :: So it seems, Hakuno. What will you do? I don’t care either way.

This has gotten ridiculous. BB threatening me into cutting my contract with Gilgamesh, saying she’ll “end everything” if I don’t obey. Of course I don’t know if that’s true or not. BB has corroded the far side of the Moon Cell and consumed many Servants, but even she isn’t that powerful…I’d like to think."

Notice base Gilgamesh isn't even remotely impressed at universe busting, also notice that the universe is referred to as a sector in the Moon Cell, so a random sector in the Moon Cell is a universe. Keep in mind the sector/universe they are in is higher dimensional as well.

Now time for Genesis Mystic Code Gilgamesh...

Since this thread is about Gilgamesh and not BB, I will make this brief... BB has absorbed the data of many Divine Spirits, including the Earth Mother Goddess. One of her main abilities is Potnia Theron, which makes her impossible to defeat if her opponent is someone from Earth. The only way to counter this if you are from Earth is to have authority and power on her level, which forces Gilgamesh and Hakuno to re-obtain his Genesis Mystic Code, which gives him the same level of authority and power as Moon Cell fused BB.

"Ten Crowns (十の王冠, Jū no Ōkan?) is an EX rank skill. It has been said that the ten crowns indicates the ten evil kings and the seven hills indicate the abominable city of evil. It is unknown what kind of principle・authority it is, but that power's origin lies in a past that even the King of Heroes, who was supposed to be mankind's oldest, cannot reach. On a simple look, it is a Skill that turns received injuries and occurred events, that make all results as if "nothing happened". As a matter of fact, BB is invincible as long as she has this skill.

The details of Ten Crowns is later revealed under a different name. BB compiled and absorbed many goddesses from the abyss of the Moon Cell, giving her Potnia Theron: Conception of All Animals (百獣母胎ポトニア・テローン, Hyakujū BotaiPotonia Terōn?), the authority of the Earth Mother Goddess. None born of the earth can defy her authority as that would mean rebelling against the system of life itself. Her Noble Phantasm, Cursed Cutting Crater, is the maximum use of the skill."

BB also fusing with the Moon Cell's core/becoming the Moon Cell means she has the full power of the Moon Cell, the same device that has an 8D reality marble with at least two infinite sized realms in it, which goes far beyond what qualifies as an infinite sized multiverse, meaning Moon Cell BB is also at this level. Her Noble Phantasm is even stated to wipe out dimensions and reality.

No Caption Provided

"Cursed Cutting Crater (C. C. C.)

An attack on the world by BB in control of the Moon Cell.

Also called the spirit particle imaginary pit.

A world purge by means of event rewriting, making maximum use of the EX skill “Potnia Theron” BB had acquired.

The goddess who is the mother of the earth goddesses who created the earth is, in other words, the “root” that created all creation.

This Noble Phantasm is an anti-world Noble Phantasm that outputs information like an ultra-precise 3d printer and crushes the present world with the world desired by the user.

The space eroded by BB becomes imaginary space and a curse that consumes reality. CCC as the name suggests is a cursed pit that bores out reality.

In addition to scattering all objects inside on an atomic level and reconstructing them, it is capable of writing over and rewriting information of fields such as luck and coincidence.

While theoretical, it is also thought possible to distort the time axis by interfering with gravity fields and rewrite the law of cause and effect.

When used in combat, BB’s familiars, the shapeshifters engulf the target, and after turning into a sphere, is wiped out of existence along with the target and the dimension with it."

Keyword is "reality" and "dimensions." CCC can consume reality and erase dimensions, and BB used CCC in the Far Side of Angelica cage, which is higher dimensional. Calling CCC planet level because it's called "Anti World" is vastly out of context. This Noble Phantasm is the second strongest in the entire Nasuverse next to Fate/Extra CCC's version of Gilgamesh's Enuma Elish.

Gilgamesh after obtaining his Mystic Code is equal in raw power to Moon Cell BB.

"BB :: That power — It’s the same rank as mine. — How wretched.

Gilgamesh :: Indeed. A king should never show his true form, even unto his death. However, my mongrel wagered her life to bring these rites to the attention of the crown. If I do not answer her call, who will? If the malice covering this place belongs to all the world, that’s most convenient. Listen carefully, all beings. This woman is my contractor. Consider harming Hakuno Kishinami without my permission impossible from now unto eternity!"

No Caption Provided

In the battle, Gilgamesh is capable of flat out one shotting Moon Cell BB via Enuma Elish. When Gilgamesh plants his sword Ea into the ground, the mere spinning of it destroys the entire Moon Cell reality marble. The main argument against this feat is that "It's only a game cinematic" and "If he really destroyed the Moon Cell reality marble, why is it back after the attack is over?" To the first argument, I say that it isn't a mere cinematic because the mere spinning of Ea is stated to devour space-time and reality (I will post Ea and Enuma elish related statements below). To the second argument, I say that the Moon Cell's core restored its reality marble, after all, it's shown capable of doing this once Sakura takes control of the Moon Cell.

"Delete all the Moon Cell’s set rules…? Wait, could Sakura be planning to reset all Moon Cell’s “administrative functions,” including herself!?

Gilgamesh :: To sweep away this whole affair as if it were all a dream…So you will protect the Moon Cell even at the cost of your own life, no, your own soul, AI?

Sakura :: …Yes, it’s fine. If I disappear, it will stop running out of control and the corrosion will stop. All of you will be returned to the near side, and the imaginary number space will be erased from proper history, as if it never existed. Everything will go back to how it was before. I am an AI born from the Moon Cell. I’ll just being going back to the place I used to be. …Yes, everything will be set right. As soon as you open your eyes. That meeting, the time we’ve spent here, everything. So please don’t worry. It’s just the ending of a dream. Ah, but — It was a long dream. It was fun, and it made me happier than it should —

This is… Is there really no other way left to fix this? “Everything as it was before,” Sakura said. We’ll go back to before we were draw into the far side of the moon, back to the correct history where “there is no far side of the moon.” So everything that happened here will be gone. All the times we worked together on the student council. Our battles with BB and the Alter Egos, all of the many things that happened here."

Also the fact that Gilgamesh can stomp BB who became the Moon Cell itself backs up this feat.

As for Gilgamesh's sword, Ea...

"Sword of Rupture, Ea (乖離剣・エア, Kairi Ken - Ea?) is the most powerful Noble Phantasm contained in the Gate of Babylon and the pinnacle of all those used by Servants. Unlike all of his other nameless weapons that were able to be passed on to other wielders over the course of history, it is a sword only Gilgamesh possesses, a completely unique existence that can only be possessed by him, that is suited only for a ruler's use and makes him transcendent.

Borne of the winds drawn unto the revolution of the three cylinders of Ea, a spatial severence is formed by use of the Sword of Separation. Compressed and intertwined stratifications of wind become a virtual dislocation of space-time, annihilating any who would stand in opposition. Aside from holding an elimination rank "Armor Class" statistic of a sufficient magnitude to resist Purging, or enacting mutual negation via a counterattack that inflicts the same order of damage, the damage rendered cannot be defended against"

This is caused by the mere spinning of Ea's blade. As for Ea's ultimate attack, Enuma Elish...

"Performing the miracle of genesis, something that reveals creation - the beginning of everything, the attack opens an abyss capable of crushing all of creation, and the center of the storm is not calm, but rather a hole to hell itself that returns all that enters its realm to the nothingness from which it originated. The wind pressure creates a vacuum that takes all things with form, the land, the atmosphere, and the sky, into the whirling void. The tumult of genesis takes everything that was nothing more than chaos which could not form any meaning, and creates a new truth that divides and distinguishes Heaven, Sea, and Earth. Within the darkness where everything is returned to nothingness, only Ea is left to shine with brilliance like a Star of Creation amidst the destruction, the first thing illuminating the new world. The ability takes the entire world within the Reality Marble Ionioi Hetairoi, and cracks, shatters, and collapses it into the abyss like the ending of an hourglass. The entire world inside the Reality Marble would have been completely destroyed had the field not collapsed due to a lack of energy."

As you can see, some of these quotes are referencing things outside of Fate/Extra, such as Fate/Stay Night and Fate/Zero, as these pages are not exclusively dedicated to Extra. Fate/Extra CCC's Enuma Elish works the same way as the other incarnations of Enuma Elish from the main timelimes, only amped to a higher dimensional beyond multiversal level (as shown with what they can do to the Moon Cell reality marble and Moon Cell BB).

As for the rest of Gilgamesh's abilities, they may be added at a later time, but this respect thread is meant mainly for the power of CCC Gilgamesh.

Gilgamesh's Speed

Gilgamesh's speed in Fate/Extra is almost always interpreted incorrectly by fans. Many people claim Gilgamesh is billions of times faster than light due to him being sent to the Horsehead Nebula and coming back instantly, however Gilgamesh's true speed is beyond the concept of space-time, here is why...

BB after becoming the Moon Cell is described by Rin as having a higher dimensional existence and perspective where she can view and handle the past, present, and future at once, "Rin :: On the other hand, the laws of the recorded universe are different. The perception of the recorded universe is over many dimensions…think of it as a higher dimensional existence. From this higher dimension, the third dimension looks like a flat scroll. Er, if the three-dimensional world is a world drawn in a book, and then if you jumped inside the book and came out outside the book, something like that? And then you’re able to look down on any point in your past, present, and future from when you were inside the book, as a record — that’s the higher dimensional perspective. You get it? Under these circumstances, all time inside the book becomes equivalent. Since you can always turn to whatever time you want to. There’s no past or future. It’s the same as that. This is imaginary number space, a higher dimensional information space made from light. The far side of the moon is fundamentally operated according to the laws of the recorded universe, not the observed universe. We are foreign bodies…no, guests. Creatures of the the observed universe that have been thrown into the recorded universe. Whereas the Moon Cell’s Core is a concurrent world simulator where all possibilities are calculated and the past, present, and future all exist at the same time. In other words, it belongs to the recorded universe. BB has become that Moon Cell. She’s obtained a higher dimensional perspective. So — BB can handle the past and the future simultaneously." Notice from the earlier descriptions of BB's abilities that before fusing with the Moon Cell, she placed herself in "unlimited time" so she could hack the Moon Cell. So we have base BB pre-Moon Cell already in unlimited time, and Moon Cell BB existing above it, so how can Gilgamesh keep pace with BB if he is only billions of times faster than light? Simple, he can't... Moon Cell BB stated that Genesis Mystic Code Gilgamesh is on her level, meaning that Gilgamesh exist beyond time just like Moon Cell BB (makes sense since he existed in the Far Side in base).

Moon Cell Hakuno also makes an interesting comment...

As for the Horsehead Nebula feat Kiara did to Gilgamesh, there are two possibilities... One, that the feat of him getting back from 1,500 light years was more than just distance, as Kiara threw Gilgamesh into conceptual space and into the Horsehead Nebula in one of the many universes in the Moon Cell (a universe was referred to as a mere sector of the Moon Cell, as shown earlier) in a different dimension from Angelica Cage (the realm where the Moon Cell's core is), and it shows a beam of light come across the screen and he is back instantly. People assume Kiara threw him from Earth to the Horsehead Nebula, making him MFTL, but they were in the higher dimensional Angelica Cage (nowhere near Earth or the universe in general in the Moon Cell), meaning Kiara threw him across dimensions into a random universe in the Moon Cell. Possibility number two is that Kiara threw Gilgamesh OUTSIDE of the Moon Cell's reality marble entirely into the real universe, and since the Moon Cell physically exist in our solar system, people use the standard billions of times faster than light calc, but think about it... Gilgamesh got thrown out of a beyond infinite multiversal in size, higher dimensional virtual reality marble into the real universe into the Horsehead Nebula, and came back into one of the deepest realms of the Moon Cell's reality marble in the blink of an eye; that requires way beyond MFTL speeds. Regardless, the fact he is stated to be on the same level as Moon Cell BB and kept pace with her proves he's faster than the concept of time itself.

Stat Summary

So in the end, I'll lay down the quick stats summary of Fate/Extra's Gilgamesh

Base Gilgamesh post-training/regained his lost power

Power: Universal to possibly 5-D or 7-D (BB's universal attack was not just going to destroy a universe, but a universe in a higher dimension/the Far Side, while Gilgamesh didn't seem concerned or impressed).

Speed: Possibly infinite (exist in the Far Side and seemed ready to challenge base BB, who put herself in unlimited time).

Genesis Mystic Code Gilgamesh

Power: Possibly Infinite multiversal level to two infinite multiverses (counting the Infinite Chimeric Lunar Sea); most likely far far higher as he is 8-D since he scales to Moon Cell BB (depends on how you want to view higher dimensions in the Nasuverse).

Speed: Beyond the concept of time (is on the same level of existence as Moon Cell BB, who can view and handle the past, present, and future at once like a book).

Extra Facts

The other Servants such as Nero (Saber), Shirou (Archer), and Tamamo (Caster) reach beyond multiversal levels of power once they obtain their Mystic Code as well, as they are on the level of Moon Cell BB (although far inferior to Gilgamesh due to his many powerful abilities and Noble Phantasms).

No Caption Provided

Fate/Extra's version of Arcueid Brunestud from Tsukihime is implied to be able to defeat (or at least put up fight) against Moon Cell BB in base/no Archetype Earth. "Well even with that being said, if Berserker regained her sanity, she would easily be considered a cheat-tier Servant. Her power, “The stage is the Moon, so all targets have their power reduced to a sixth of their usual.” would be extremely useful against other similar cheat-tier Servants.

It’s a conceptual numerical alteration, so it is unavoidable when on the Moon. Even the Moon Cell transformed version of BB would be limited by it." She is being compared to cheat-tier Servants in base, which is what both Moon Cell BB and Gilgamesh are referred to as. If Arcueid entered her Archetype Earth state, she should be able to easily dispatch Genesis Mystic Code Gilgamesh and Moon Cell BB.

Conclusion

Well, hopefully people get the picture now. I made this thread since it seems not a single person on any website can agree on CCC Gilgamesh's power. I hear one person say he's planet level due to main timeline scaling, then I see people say star level, then multi galaxy, then universal, all the way up to like megaverse level. I felt I needed to make this to lay down the facts so that people can get a better idea of his power and to inform people who haven't played Fate/Extra CCC of his power. Obviously people will still disagree and bicker over how powerful he is, but maybe this RT will help a tiny bit on not only CCC Gilgamesh, but the other CCC Mystic Code Servants and Fate/Extra Arcueid.

I also made this because I was bored. lol...

Edit: Oh, and also try to be civil and not start flame wars (assuming this thread even gets noticed).

Avatar image for zgtfreak
#2 Posted by zgtfreak (3040 posts) - - Show Bio
Avatar image for ecoblitz
#3 Posted by EcoBlitz (6169 posts) - - Show Bio

@zgtfreak: watch someone say Vasavi Shakti>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Ea

Avatar image for zgtfreak
#4 Posted by zgtfreak (3040 posts) - - Show Bio

@ecoblitz: Well to those people, I'll just mention Gilgamesh in base form tanking Vasavi Shakti in Fate/Extra CCC. ¯\(ツ)/¯

Avatar image for hypebeastcsb15
#5 Posted by HypeBeastCSB15 (1281 posts) - - Show Bio

This is a good respect thread, though I wish you used vsbattles dimensional tiering.

Avatar image for zgtfreak
#6 Posted by zgtfreak (3040 posts) - - Show Bio

@hypebeastcsb15: Thanks.

I guess you could technically use VSBattles dimensional tierring, as it'd probably place CCC Gilgamesh at the same level of power I have him at; I simply don't agree with their tierring system.

Avatar image for deactivated-5c9011bc9c6e9
#7 Posted by deactivated-5c9011bc9c6e9 (616 posts) - - Show Bio

Don't know how "accurate" it is since I didn't play the game but it was a good read

Avatar image for risk0608
#8 Posted by Risk0608 (348 posts) - - Show Bio

Saw 5-D, became VERY suspicious after that

Avatar image for risk0608
#9 Posted by Risk0608 (348 posts) - - Show Bio

My issue with this is applying String Theory to a fictional verse that (to my knowledge) hasn't even implied it. If it contradicts String Theory and you continue to apply the same laws is contradicts then you know Dimensional Tiering based on String Theory doesn't work

Avatar image for zgtfreak
#10 Edited by zgtfreak (3040 posts) - - Show Bio

@risk0608: Not once did I mention String Theory. I specifically showed how higher dimensions (such as 6-D Avalon) are immune to everything up to its own dimension, and how lower dimensional beings can't exist in higher, aka the Moon Cell's Far Side. I am using dimensional tierring based off that alone (aka what has been shown in-lore). Gilgamesh destroying a reality with multiple infinite sized realms and defeating the being who fused with the device that created said reality already puts him beyond your standard infinite sized multiverse with those two feats alone, and those two feats aren't even related to the dimensional tierring part.

Again, I never mentioned String Theory once.

Avatar image for risk0608
#11 Posted by Risk0608 (348 posts) - - Show Bio

@zgtfreak: Dimensional Tiering originates from String Theory. But since you showed some evidence, I guess it's fine then

Avatar image for uzumaki44
#12 Posted by Red_Himura (9 posts) - - Show Bio

Imo the way the dimensional tierring works only loosely follows the generic construct of string theory which is obviously unavoidable if you have even a tiny concept of “yesterday” “today” “tomorrow” as time is a key measurement and the perception of it and the understanding of that perception is what fuels a lot of sciences that predate string theory. Angles and shapes and art all used 2d 3d and we perceive ourselves in 3d and cant see time but keep record. Religion plays a role with god being 4d or above as hes everywhere(space) at once (time) supposedly or hes like bb and Gilgamesh peering into a single section of infinite options. This lore isnt reliant on string theory and honestly the only reason even i know string theory is cuz its what i eventually found out scientists call the stuff i randomly thought about it

Avatar image for shintoki
#13 Edited by Shintoki (767 posts) - - Show Bio

@zgtfreak i recommend that you mention fate extella zero

as fate extella is suppose to be a continuation of zero and it is stated as a straight out alternate timeline from the get go if you use that, basically Ex/zero (extella) =/= last encore =/= extra =/= CCC

Avatar image for zgtfreak
#14 Posted by zgtfreak (3040 posts) - - Show Bio

@shintoki: Yeah, I tend to mention that when I get into actual debates.

Avatar image for lsoon23
#15 Posted by Lsoon23 (1062 posts) - - Show Bio

I agree with all of this.

Great thread, deserves far more attention. I actually use this as a helpful guide when I've debated Gilgamesh in the past.

Avatar image for lilgodperv
#16 Posted by Lilgodperv (26 posts) - - Show Bio

You debunked it yourself. Moon cells isn't any 7-8d space. Before you say something i would like to remind you that the moon cell which according to you is highly intelligent a.i and can create multiverse is watching the earth from nearby should possibly not have higher dimensions. It exists on the similar 3 dimensional plain as the earth in the universe.

So according to you the mooncells which can supposedly create 7 to 8 dimensional universes actually exists in a 3 dimensional universe. WTF logic is that. I have never seen an object that supposedly creates 7 to 8D universes exist in a 3 dimensional universe in any fiction. They mostly exists detached from the multiverse or on a higher plain of existence. So your theory is wrong.

Avatar image for zgtfreak
#17 Edited by zgtfreak (3040 posts) - - Show Bio

@lilgodperv said:

You debunked it yourself. Moon cells isn't any 7-8d space. Before you say something i would like to remind you that the moon cell which according to you is highly intelligent a.i and can create multiverse is watching the earth from nearby should possibly not have higher dimensions. It exists on the similar 3 dimensional plain as the earth in the universe.

So according to you the mooncells which can supposedly create 7 to 8 dimensional universes actually exists in a 3 dimensional universe. WTF logic is that. I have never seen an object that supposedly creates 7 to 8D universes exist in a 3 dimensional universe in any fiction. They mostly exists detached from the multiverse or on a higher plain of existence. So your theory is wrong.

You assume that dimensions work the same in every fiction, but they don't. There is nothing wrong with higher-dimensional objects existing in lower-dimensional spaces. When They Cry and Marvel have done it many times. Nice try, buddy; but you need to learn what you're even talking about before you come challenging me. I can tell you are extremely inexperienced when it comes to multiverse level entities.

Avatar image for lilgodperv
#18 Posted by Lilgodperv (26 posts) - - Show Bio

@zgtfreak: ok then tell me what are the objects that are higher dimensional in higurasi or marvel which exists in the 3D universe

Avatar image for zgtfreak
#19 Posted by zgtfreak (3040 posts) - - Show Bio

@lilgodperv: Voyagers going to the Golden land and the 3-D parts of the Human Domain, Beyonder going in the Marvel multiverse, ect. lol

Avatar image for lilgodperv
#20 Posted by Lilgodperv (26 posts) - - Show Bio

@zgtfreak: @zgtfreak: ok so can you tell me what they send on the three dimensional plain is their original body or a body suitable for that world? As for beyonder he wad an omnipotent being before the retcon. It was to show that there are beings equal to the one above all. But the current beyonder is nowhere near that power anymore. Lol

Avatar image for zgtfreak
#21 Posted by zgtfreak (3040 posts) - - Show Bio

@lilgodperv: It was just their body. They can send avatars as well; but those avatars aren't weaker.

Beyonder was never omnipotent. Pre-recton had trouble with removing the concept of death and has gotten cucked multiple times.

Overall, your "Higher-dimensional objects can't exist in lower-dimensional spaces" is completely baseless hogwash that you made up. There is no reasoning behind this. You have made a baseless claim.

Avatar image for lilgodperv
#22 Posted by Lilgodperv (26 posts) - - Show Bio

@zgtfreak: @zgtfreak: you give the examples of beyonder and witches but do you even know on what kind of existence they are? Any one of them can obliterate nasuverse with their pinky finger. They don't follow the conventional rules and they exist on a metaphysical realm where concepts can be visualized.

Avatar image for zgtfreak
#23 Posted by zgtfreak (3040 posts) - - Show Bio

@lilgodperv: Beyonder has been debunked to where he is barely above an infinite multiverse by a finite amount. And he has extremely low-tier metaphysics. He effectively gets slaughtered by Gilgamesh.

Sungsam/@etriel can explain the Beyonder debunks if he feels like it.

As for Witches... I'm literally the biggest expert on Umineko on this entire site, along with Ovy7 and Kilgpmktra. (I am currently doing an RT for them with the help of those 2.) Cosmology wise, the Witches are hilariously above Nasuverse. Hax wise? Gilgamesh kills most of them with his superior hax. Arcueid can grow as strong as any of them via her Gaia amp, and has the hax to solo everyone up until the strongest non-omnipotent character in the verse, who she stalemates (aka EoS Battler).

Also, what? Literally none of the Nasuverse follows "conventional rules." Metaphysics and concepts are thrown around every second. Planets are individual realities with their own laws, ect.

Avatar image for lilgodperv
#24 Posted by Lilgodperv (26 posts) - - Show Bio

beyonder being debunked! Was it pre-retcon or post-retcon? So now arcruid can defeat umineko witches. Then what?! gilgamesh defeating the presence and the one above all. Come on dude you didn't even give a legit reson to believe your posts. You are debunking shit. Prove me that the dimensions bb break are higher dimensions with their own laws. Gilgamesh hasn't done shit that proves him he is even galaxy level. Yet i support him as a universal+ buster. Telling me that gil is 7-8D is too much of a stretch. You really want me to believe that.

And i know the planets in nasuverse have their own laws. So what? You say that a planet with its own laws can beat beings who can destroy entire multiverses.

Avatar image for zgtfreak
#25 Edited by zgtfreak (3040 posts) - - Show Bio

@lilgodperv: beyonder being debunked! Was it pre-retcon or post-retcon?

Pre.

So now arcruid can defeat umineko witches. Then what?! gilgamesh defeating the presence and the one above all.

The Presence is beyond every non-omnipotent in the Nasuverse and When They Cry. What? And TOAA has been rectonned to where he couldn't even fix a single universe. Fodder.

Come on dude you didn't even give a legit reson to believe your posts.

Here's a post explaining why Arcueid and Battler stalemate.

Prove me that the dimensions bb break are higher dimensions with their own laws.

Read the RT instead of whining. Avalon alone proves that higher dimensions are infinitely above lower. The Moon Cell stores infinite timelines. Universes in the Moon Cell are referred to as mere sectors. So how is Gilgamesh and BB only universal again?

Gilgamesh hasn't done shit that proves him he is even galaxy level. Yet i support him as a universal+ buster. Telling me that gil is 7-8D is too much of a stretch. You really want me to believe that.

I don't care what you believe. The way you whine instead of debating shows that no one will take you seriously on here.

And i know the planets in nasuverse have their own laws. So what? You say that a planet with its own laws can beat beings who can destroy entire multiverses.

You can't even follow this discussion properly. Great job! You said Umineko/When They Cry are metaphysical and beyond conventional physics, as if Nasuverse isn't; and I proved you wrong with the planets alone.

Avatar image for lilgodperv
#26 Edited by Lilgodperv (26 posts) - - Show Bio

@zgtfreak: hum ok i have done a bit more research about the moon cells and ccc and they are multiversal indeed if the moon cells is similar to akasha

Avatar image for lilgodperv
#27 Posted by Lilgodperv (26 posts) - - Show Bio

So which is stronger akasha or the moon cells?

Avatar image for zgtfreak
#28 Posted by zgtfreak (3040 posts) - - Show Bio

@lilgodperv: Akasha is entirely omnipotent. The Nasuverse is merely an extension of her. RT here. <