Geralt of Rivia is a Product of Blatant Plagiarism

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deactivated-60fae469e992f

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An albino spellsword with freakish inhuman eyes, known far and wide as the White Wolf, armed with a quick temper and an acid tongue with a penchant for becoming embroiled in political and military conflicts far larger than himself. He wanders a world brimming with fantasy trapped by the double edged blade of his own abnormally long life, originally sustained through the use of magical substances and esoteric rituals, finding himself caught in the schemes of political figures and powerful villains hoping to use his powers for their own purposes.

Sound familiar? Thing is, I didn't actually describe Geralt there, I described the little known character by Micheal Moorcock, Elric of Melnibone

Many characters across fiction draw inspiration from Elric very obviously, like Arthas from Warcraft, Rhaegar Targaryen, Brynden Rivers, Kaine from Legacy of Kain and Drizzt from the Dungeons and Dragons mythos, but Geralt is the only one I would actually call a blatant ripoff.

  • Both have strong anti-hero tones about them, although Elric takes it into anti-villain sometimes
  • Both are known to be peerless swordsmen, as well as being capable of using magic to boot. The only difference is Elric is a full blown sorcerer
  • Both act as mercenaries through much of their series
  • They share a similar aesthetic, bleach white hair and pale skin with abnormal eyes
  • Both are called the The White Wolf.
  • They both fall in love with a dark haired beauties. Cymoril to Elric and Yennefer to Geralt.
  • Both are known to be womanizers despite their strange, inhuman looks
  • Their naming scheme is the same. Geralt of Rivia. Elric of Melnibone
  • Elric uses witch sight to augment his senses....Geralt uses Witcher sense
  • Both use potions as a mainstay of their character
  • Both blatantly refuse to accept destiny, burdened by their status in life and respective responsibilities
  • Both often manipulated by very powerful people as part of the main plot of their story
  • Both part of a race that is dying out, a relic of times past

What speaks more of Sapkowski guilt than any of this though, is that he refuses to admit even the surface similarities of these characters, despite admitting the Witcher took influence from several popular fantasy series banned in soviet controlled Poland, even after being allegedly served papers by Moorcock's lawyers. This is like if I were to write a book about a group Gnomes on an adventurer on a quest to destroy the One Necklace to Control Them All, and then had the sheer audacity to deny that Tolkien at least inspired it.

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Sazzmi

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Don't want to die.

I shall post.

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deactivated-60fae469e992f

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ArkhamAsylum3

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Basically agree with you here.

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KingCrimson

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The similarities run so deep I'm honestly having a hard time believing he would try to pull that off.

Thing is, if he admits that he took any inspiration form Elric, he may as well admit that basically stole the entire character.

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phillip33

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#6  Edited By phillip33

Nah, I’ve read both. They do have surface similarities but they are two very different, complex characters wth very different stories and upbringings. Even the name white wolf is just a generic badass name, hell even marvel has one. You been watching too much rageaholic

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deactivated-60fae469e992f

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@phillip33 said:

Nah, I’ve read both. They do have surface similarities but they are two very different, complex characters wth very different stories and upbringings. Even the name white wolf is just a generic badass name, hell even marvel has one.

They are fundamentally difference characters yes but the similarities in sheer aesthetics and similarities between them are basically impossible to ignore. If it was just the White Wolf name, or the spellsword asthetic, or the physical similarities, or even two or three of those things it might be passable. But its not

The very framework of the character is copypasted to the extreme, with only other details being different

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Kairan1979

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I think Raistlin Majere is shares more similarities with Elric.

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phillip33

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#9  Edited By phillip33

@decaf_wizard: I mean just about everything under surface level is different so it’s hard to call it blatant plagiarism. If that was the case any white haired badass would be plagiarism. The surface is very similar, but everything important is unique.

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deactivated-60fae469e992f

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@kairan1979: Thats a curious take. I really dont know much about the intricacies of dragonlance (seeing as its a steaming pile of nope) so could you explain

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deactivated-60fae469e992f

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@phillip33 said:

@decaf_wizard: I mean just about everything under surface level is different so it’s hard to call it blatant plagiarism. If that was the case any white haired badass would be plagiarism. The surface is very similar, but everything important is unique.

Its not just "white haired badass though" and I dont see how that can't be seen. Again, its the minor fluff thats different. The character and framework are practically the same

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phillip33

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#12  Edited By phillip33

@decaf_wizard: yea but everything important including characterization, motivations, and actual storytelling is different. not plagiarism. That’s like saying protagonists from old western movies are all plagiarized off of each other. They’re all gruff white dudes following a cookie cutter archetype, who are good with a revolver and wear cowboy garb. Just because two characters fit a very similar archetype doesn’t make them plagiarized off of each other.

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deactivated-60fae469e992f

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@decaf_wizard: yea but everything important including characterization, motivations, and actual storytelling is different. not plagiarism. That’s like saying protagonists from old western movies are all plagiarized off of each other. They’re all gruff white dudes following a cookie cutter archetype, who are good with a revolver and wear cowboy garb. Just because two characters fit a very similar archetype doesn’t make them plagiarized off of each other.

>characterization

Almost exactly the same in my mind, they have very similar personalities although Elric's is darker

>motivations

can be chalked up to different universes, setting is actually the prime difference between the two

>actual story telling

irrelevant to the character itself being a ripoff

and ive said like twice now, its not just "gruff albino dude" its so much more than that

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Wassely

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Indeed.

At this level it's not "an inspiration" anymore.

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The_Justiciar

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Wut

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@decaf_wizard: Aye, I've known Geralt has been heavily inspired by Elric of Melnibone for a long time. That said, I also don't really like Geralt, so I don't partake all that much into the Witch fanbase and this could be something people just weren't aware of. Although, funny enough, you mentioned a character I like even less then Geralt in Drizzt. :D Talk about a double whammy.

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MarvelandDCfan24

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#18  Edited By MarvelandDCfan24

Seems plausible though the Witcher is better

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deactivated-60fae469e992f

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@wut said:

@decaf_wizard: Aye, I've known Geralt has been heavily inspired by Elric of Melnibone for a long time. That said, I also don't really like Geralt, so I don't partake all that much into the Witch fanbase and this could be something people just weren't aware of. Although, funny enough, you mentioned a character I like even less then Geralt in Drizzt. :D Talk about a double whammy.

Drizzt is a tool, and also an Elric inspired character. Just not as bad as Geralt

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Wut

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@decaf_wizard: I hate Drizzt so much. But that's probably more from the byproduct of the amount of stupid ranger characters and 'good guy' Drow that have popped up because of him.

Although the 'Ohhhhhh, he has white hair and has a sword! SO COOL!" crap that has popped up in a bunch of RPs because of Geralt, Elric and others isn't any better... Hm.

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@wut said:

@decaf_wizard: I hate Drizzt so much. But that's probably more from the byproduct of the amount of stupid ranger characters and 'good guy' Drow that have popped up because of him.

Although the 'Ohhhhhh, he has white hair and has a sword! SO COOL!" crap that has popped up in a bunch of RPs because of Geralt, Elric and others isn't any better... Hm.

Ive done a half drow arcane archer to be fair, but I did it very differently to the usual bullshit. Blonde hair, tanned skin, only way you realize its a half drow is the red eyes

(also half drow is really OP in 5e omegalul)

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@foxerdes: To be honest I was talking in a very general sense, I am aware of the differences in the fluff of the character but so much is circumstantial here. Falling in love with a dark haired sorceress? Alone that wouldn't be so bad, but when he has the same moniker (white wolf), the same aesthetic (spellsword), similar appearance, ect ect, it starts to get pretty apparent that Geralt was at least inspired by Elric at the absolute minimum

At least when Warcraft, Warhammer 40k and Warhammer and other universes take from people like Tolkien or Dune, they admit to it from a design perspective. Sapkowski refuses to admit even the slightest of similarities between the two even though its blatantly obvious

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Wut

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@decaf_wizard: If I play Drow, I play Drow. Full on Lawful Evil Drow Priestess forced to the surface due to a failed coup. Always talks to female npcs first believing them to be in charge, super cruel and more then happy to let party members die if she is not bound by contract or her explicit word to aid them. [I love Lawful Evil].

I will, legit, leave a group if I came in and someone was, "Oh, I'ma a Drow, but you know, a good Drow."

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@wut said:

@decaf_wizard: If I play Drow, I play Drow. Full on Lawful Evil Drow Priestess forced to the surface due to a failed coup. Always talks to female npcs first believing them to be in charge, super cruel and more then happy to let party members die if she is not bound by contract or her explicit word to aid them. [I love Lawful Evil].

I will, legit, leave a group if I came in and someone was, "Oh, I'ma a Drow, but you know, a good Drow."

The way I usually do it (because I will go to GREAT lengths to avoid sunlight sensitivity) even if I am playing full drow is use the half drow template with the drow magic you can take instead of tool proficiencies. And yea none of this shitty good Drow stuff

But this half drow in particular it was his dirty secret he could hide because of his appearance, and he always maintained his father was a Avariel because nobody knew what the hell one of those looked like

And yes, lawful evil is the best

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@foxerdes: Also, its worth noting that both characters get their powers from arguably the same source, with Elric getting his powers from mysterious arcane rituals and herbalistic remedies, just like Geralt. The only difference is that Geralt doesn't require these things regularly

And another thing, Elric was never introduced an Emperor or as a re-incarnation of a great hero. During the period when The Witcher was being penned, Elric was a pulp hero, a ragtag mercenary. All of his stories were of a magical sword for hire who goes by the name The White Wolf and had a black haired sorceress lover. Geralt, at his inception, very closely matched Elric at that time in his saga as well. They moved in different directions, but the STARTED very very much the same.

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deactivated-60fae469e992f

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I wonder where all the Witcher fans are........

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LowMageKage

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Did you watch that Razor Fist guy?

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deactivated-60fae469e992f

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@lowmagekage: I am aware of him, and based my opening post on his video, but my sentiment towards Geralt predates even knowing who he is

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MErulezall

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@wut said:

@decaf_wizard: Aye, I've known Geralt has been heavily inspired by Elric of Melnibone for a long time. That said, I also don't really like Geralt, so I don't partake all that much into the Witch fanbase and this could be something people just weren't aware of. Although, funny enough, you mentioned a character I like even less then Geralt in Drizzt. :D Talk about a double whammy.

You hate Drizzt? Or dislike?

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Wut

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@merulezall: I don't think I hate any character outside of using hate as just an easy means of saying 'really dislike', not truly hate, but I dislike him very much.

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@wut said:

@merulezall: I don't think I hate any character outside of using hate as just an easy means of saying 'really dislike', not truly hate, but I dislike him very much.

Why?

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#33  Edited By Wut

@merulezall: Because he tires me. He was fine in the first few novels. Then it just.... ugh. His entire thing about being the 'hero as the outcast' trope that makes up... just about his entire character isn't pulled off well [probably because being a 'beautiful misunderstood loner' just makes me want to slap personality into you, not feel bad for you] and is often utterly undercut by his stupid pseudo-philosophical whinnymoppyfemale dog nature. Dear god, if I had to sit through another stupid introspection section of one of his novels, I will tear out my eyes and feed them to the nearest dog. I mean, ffs, he has a sword called Twinkle. And I'm supposed to buy a character using a sword called Twinkle is having deep, moody introspection on himself and the world around him? Its not like his other one is any better, Icingdeath. Icing. Death. I don't even.. are you kidding me? Also, Drizzt, stay the hell out of my BG2 campaign.

Now, that is not enough to make me dislike him so much more then, say, Geralt who is dreadfully dull, and the worst part, he was designed to be so and has lore explaining why he is so mind-dullingly dull [which is hilarious when you think about it]: Drizzt single-handily gave birth to entire generations of people who thought being the angsty emo pretty boy rebelling against societal norms would be cool to play. In. Every. Single. Fraking. RP. They get bonus points if he is a rogue/assassin/range, have white hair and dual wield.

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deactivated-60fae469e992f

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@wut: plus he was screwing Catti-brie who was what.....a third of his age if not less before the whole "resurrection" thing that happened when the entire Companions got a "get out of death free" card. They canonically met when she was like 9. She was in her late teens when the two spent six years adventuring on the Sword Coast

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DeathandGrim

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Want to go after all the Wukong "ripoffs" next?

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deactivated-60fae469e992f

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Want to go after all the Wukong "ripoffs" next?

Ripping off mythology (or journey to the west, basically same thing at this point) is different from ripping off another author and refusing to admit it

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DeathandGrim

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#39  Edited By DeathandGrim

@decaf_wizard: Well here you're saying one character may in fact be heavily based if not the exact same as another. But is the whole story the exact same?

Also Journey to the West was made by an author too

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@DeathandGrim2 said:

@decaf_wizard: Well here you're saying one character may in fact be heavily based if not the exact same as another. But is the whole story the exact same?

Well I wasn't going to bring it up, but several key events from the Witcher Universe (much of which is original) most prominently the Conjunction of the Spheres are borrowed heavily from the Elric Saga, as well as tonal themes and the Sign Magic System, and even the magic system in general is an outright copypaste. Hell you could even argue the whole "edge to the world" thing in Witcher was outright stolen as well

Yes it has an author, but at this point its a few hundred years old, ingrained into mythology and most authors will readily admit the inspiration. This would be like Akira Toriyama saying Goku isn't a Wukong ripoff.

The Elric Saga is one of the most widely borrowed from series of all time, only Dune, Warhammer 40k, Discworld, Tolkien's works and a select few others could claim the same or greater levels of influence, and borrowing from it (even heavily) is completely fine. Copypasting characters from it isn't, and neither is refusing to admit that you were even inspired by it, claiming the works were completely original

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Wut

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@decaf_wizard: Felix from Gotrek and Felix married a girl half, or even a third, his age that they met when she was just a child as well. :p

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@wut said:

@decaf_wizard: Felix from Gotrek and Felix married a girl half, or even a third, his age that they met when she was just a child as well. :p

With them it was extra weird though. She was the adopted daughter of his best friend kek

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MErulezall

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@wut said:

@merulezall: Because he tires me. He was fine in the first few novels. Then it just.... ugh. His entire thing about being the 'hero as the outcast' trope that makes up... just about his entire character isn't pulled off well [probably because being a 'beautiful misunderstood loner' just makes me want to slap personality into you, not feel bad for you] and is often utterly undercut by his stupid pseudo-philosophical whinnymoppyfemale dog nature. Dear god, if I had to sit through another stupid introspection section of one of his novels, I will tear out my eyes and feed them to the nearest dog. I mean, ffs, he has a sword called Twinkle. And I'm supposed to buy a character using a sword called Twinkle is having deep, moody introspection on himself and the world around him? Its not like his other one is any better, Icingdeath. Icing. Death. I don't even.. are you kidding me? Also, Drizzt, stay the hell out of my BG2 campaign.

Now, that is not enough to make me dislike him so much more then, say, Geralt who is dreadfully dull, and the worst part, he was designed to be so and has lore explaining why he is so mind-dullingly dull [which is hilarious when you think about it]: Drizzt single-handily gave birth to entire generations of people who thought being the angsty emo pretty boy rebelling against societal norms would be cool to play. In. Every. Single. Fraking. RP. They get bonus points if he is a rogue/assassin/range, have white hair and dual wield.

Fair enough, haven't read his series, but I've heard mixed reviews in the past.

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the_wspanialy

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The number of similiarites is indeed striking but saying that's "blatant plagiarism" is too much. They are very different characters in regards to their behaviour, world view et. cet. It's like saying that every axe-wielding, gold-loving dwarf who likes to fight, drink and don't like elves is rip-off of Tolkien's dwarves.

And even if we consider Geralt to be "a product of blatant plagiarism"... so what? Am I supposed to suddenly like him, the books and the games centered around him less?

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@the_wspanialy: Well, the thing is that there is a not so subtle difference here. The axe-wielding, gold loving dwarf who fights, drinks and hates elves is certainly a trope born from Tolkien and all versions of it are roughly based on that. Keyword roughtly Moorcock himself heavily borrowed from Tolkien, and I am willing to bet that Elric himself was very very loosely based off the character Turin, especially taking into account that Moorcock was taught by one of Tolkien's pupils.

The differences between early Elric and Geralt are far more than in sheer appearance however, extending to characters of their supporting cast as well as many personality traits and power sources, with Elric of Melnibone being the defining and arguably first member of the character type they both share. There are several members of this character pattern inspired by Elric everywhere from Game of Thrones to Warcraft but absolutely none of them have remotely the amount of similarities that are shared between Geralt and Elric. If we took Elric from the first one or two novels (by publishing order) and Geralt, the characters would be practically identical aside from slight personality differences.

Lets look at this from an RPG perspective. If this was an RPG, the two have

  • Same class
  • Similar name
  • Same title
  • Same style of play
  • Same party members
  • Similar gear (one lucked out and got a legendary sword drop)
  • Extremely similar abilities. I would say same, but Elric is capable of doing a lot more with magic, he just usually resorts to minor elemental RUNES (stop me if youve heard this before) and stuff because he doesn't overly like spamming his more powerful magic

To repost what I said earlier: Copypasting characters from another work of fiction is plagiarism pure and simple, made worse by Sapkowski refusing to admit that he was even inspired by it when the connection is so obvious, claiming the works were completely original.

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@foxerdes

On a second thought the only similarity here is that they both get money for their job. What makes it even worse is Witchers position in the world (being treated like necessary evil, folks despising and fearing then) and the intricities of their job (dealing with what's considered, well, witchery. Curses, ghosts, monsters etc.)

You do realize that Elric is commonly associated with his people, who are associated with curses and monsters more than anybody else in his verse, and treated as a necessary evil when working as a merc yes? Thats an extremely poor example, the two are the same in that regard. There was an entire storyline of him being trapped in a land where people hated his guts because of what he was

Names are only similar because of composition but it's not exclusive for Elric nor it is innovative. Letho of Gulet, Yennefer of Vengerberg. Using origin place in the title is once again nothing new. And there is a story here because Geralt isn't even from Rivia. Witchers choose their names to appear more creditable. Geralt wanted to be called Geralt Roger Eric du Haute-Bellegarde but Vesemir made a big nope. Once you go in-depth all that plagiarism becomes extremely superficial.

I was talking about the White Wolf.

Same playstyle? You mean Geralt using magic and sword? Well, I beg to differ because he is a Witcher. Correct me if I'm wrong but they don't play like Elric.

Yes, they do. Their combat style is extremely similar. Im not talking about any prep that might go into that combat

Enhanced senses, dealing with esoteric stuff like curses and apparition. Then you have potions, and finally signs.

This half of the stuff literally describes Elric massively, the rest is a case by case basis than can generally be chalked up to him acting as an outright merc rather than a for hire monster hunter. The sign system is itself very similar to the Rune Magic system in the Elric Saga

Also I'm not sure about party. Did Elric also have friends like a minstrel, vampire and a dwarf. Not to mention few others. Other than Yennefer having the same hair color.

Yennefer isn't similar because of simply hair colour, but thats not really the point. He did have a minstrel, or something similar to it actually

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no. The similarities are physical, and that is about it. At best, you can argue that he stole the design, which is ludicrous as book readers don't give half of a flying fudgesickle about the design of a character. For a breakdown that is far better than this one read this

https://thatelfgirlroro.wordpress.com/2017/04/04/paying-homage-or-plagiarism-geralt-of-rivia-vs-elric-of-melnibone-part-i/