Genjutsu Requires Chakra to Function and Here's Why

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Anomalous

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Edited By Anomalous
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The Proof

Note: in the interest of readability I'll number these, and numbers in the counter-argument section will be related to the same numbered piece of evidence here.

1. Jiraiya's explanation of how genjutsu works.

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Step one - target your opponent's senses to gain access to their chakra network

Step two - manipulate the chakra flowing through their brain, producing the effects of genjutsu

2. Genjutsu is countered by disrupting the flow of chakra.

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If the target has stronger control over their chakra than the genjutsu user they can break out of it solo. If the target doesn't have strong enough chakra control then they won't be able to break it and need a third party to inject them with chakra. The only logical conclusion to draw from this is that the chakra being controlled is what allows genjutsu to have any effect.

3. Genjutsu never worked on anyone without chakra since everyone in Narutoverse has chakra.

As Naruto explained to Kawaki, not using chakra =/= not having chakra

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When Kakashi taught Sasuke Chidori he said that if you overdo it and completely run out of chakra you'll die. He later proved this to be true against Pain

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Debunking Counter-Arguments

1."Jiraiya didn't say word for word that genjutsu works by controlling chakra."

No, he didn't say exactly that verbatim but you can't simply stop reading after this part of his explanation

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Jiraiya made it very clear that chakra in the brain is key. Of course senses are also very important... Most visual genjutsu wouldn't work on a blind person, for example. Sight is the vehicle through which a visual genjutsu user gains control of their target's chakra.

2. "People have broken out of genjutsu with pain instead of chakra flow disruption."

We've established that senses are linked to the chakra network right? It stands to reason that a burst of pain would also disrupt chakra flow and that's what is breaking the genjutsu. Not the pain itself.

3. "Hagoromo is the one who gave people chakra. Kaguya's Infinite Tsukuyomi worked on everyone before that."

Infinite Tsukuyomi is the sole exception and goes against two major rules of genjutsu already:

  • Can't be broken by a third party disrupting chakra flow. This is extremely important and suggests that IT is fundamentally different than all other genjutsu.
  • It's a visual genjutsu that doesn't even require a line of sight to the target.

So, sure, Infinite Tsukuyomi works on people without chakra but it in no way represents how far inferior abilities work or what they are capable of. Arguing otherwise is like saying a match can burn through a fireproof safe because lava melted one.

Conclusion

Genjutsu does indeed rely on the target having chakra to manipulate. Should you want genjutsu to be a factor in a cross-verse battle then all you'd need to do is equalize whatever energy the other character uses to chakra. Easy. And let's be honest... if "genjutsu gg" was the only conceivable argument in a thread where energy isn't equalized then that battle is probably a bit of a mismatch anyway. Naruto is my favorite series and it's ok to admit that a character from our favorite series would lose in a hypothetical fight. It means less than nothing :)

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JoshTaku

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#1  Edited By JoshTaku

While I do agree with your points, I'd like to point out that sharingan genjutsu works on sage creatures who do not have chakra; like how sasuke used it on manda.

But yeah, I agree with this thread. Most people just tend to forget that most genjutsu works this way.

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IndomitableRegal

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Solid.

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ourmanuel

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Even if that were true, saying it cant be used in vsbattles is retarded

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InvadedTBD

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@anomalous: respect and agree 100% with everything you said, but lol the naruto fanboys are gonna flood this thread with a whole bunch of headcanon.

BE PREPARED!!!

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ReaperTheGrim

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"everything that counters my opinion is an outlier"

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Revold

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#6  Edited By Revold

Part of chakra is spiritual energy, therefore sharing chakra helps to connect people's consciousness, and Genjutsu is just manipulating the chakra going through your cranial nerves. So if you have no chakra you are literally not sentient. It's not an inability on the Genjutsu's part not being able to control a rock.

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Heatforce

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Basically I get from this thread that if genjutsu is to be used in a vs match:

1. State as a rule that genjutsu can be used

2. If something is similar in nature to chakra (like Ki for example) it should be fine or at leat debatable without establishing a rule.

Chakra is both spiritual and physical energy so if a character has shown a weakness to similar attacks then genjutsu should work tbh.

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UltimateSage

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Already been debunked lol, I see the lone bleach fan getting an orgasm in the corner lmao

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Anomalous

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Already been debunked lol

Where was it debunked? If you're referring to the Westwood Trevor post, I was looking at that while making this. His argument relies on not everyone in the verse having chakra at all times (disproven) and cherry picking that one single part of Jiraiya's quote about senses instead of processing it as a whole

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Anomalous

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@joshtaku said:

While I do agree with your points, I'd like to point out that sharingan genjutsu works on sage creatures who do not have chakra; like how sasuke used it on manda.

But yeah, I agree with this thread. Most people just tend to forget that most genjutsu works this way.

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Sage animals have chakra as well

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Adi_Frost

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Already been debunked.

"Jiraiya made it very clear that chakra in the brain is key"

No he didn't. He simply stated how genjutsu works. And the statement itself clearly shows that the second part isn't the most important part. It was just an explanation and there was no emphasis on that aspect that you think was emphasised.

"We've established that senses are linked to the chakra network right? It stands to reason that a burst of pain would also disrupt chakra flow and that's what is breaking the genjutsu. Not the pain itself."

Complete headcanon. Establish that pain can cause disruption in chakra otherwise this is headcanon. So the argument that "genjutsu doesn't require chakra because just like chakra, pain can also be used to get out of genjutsu" still stands.

"Infinite Tsukuyomi is the sole exception and goes against two major rules of genjutsu already:
Can't be broken by a third party disrupting chakra flow. This is extremely important and suggests that IT is fundamentally different than all other genjutsu."

No, it doesn't suggest that IT is fundamentally different from all genjutsu. It just means IT is a stronger genjutsu/hax. That's just ONE effect that IT has, not that it makes IT fundamentally different from other genjutsu's in all other aspects as well. This is just a fallacy.

"It's a visual genjutsu that doesn't even require a line of sight to the target."

Again, just another aspect of IT that makes it different from a normal genjutsu but that doesn't mean every other aspect of it is different as well. Another fallacy.

"So, sure, Infinite Tsukuyomi works on people without chakra but it in no way represents how far inferior abilities work or what they are capable of"

Not really. All you established is that what all things are different in IT from a normal genjutsu. That doesn't make it an exception to ALL aspects of a genjutsu. That needs to be proven, which you can't because IT is simply a really strong genjutsu with some "unique" effects.

"Genjutsu does indeed rely on the target having chakra to manipulate"

Not established.

"Naruto is my favorite series and it's ok to admit that a character from our favorite series would lose in a hypothetical fight. It means less than nothing"

Naruto is not my fav anime but still I can perfectly coutner something that I think is wrong.

"Genjutsu never worked on anyone without chakra since everyone in Narutoverse has chakra."

This is another simply flawed argument. Everyone in naruto doesn't have chakra. Everyone in Naruto has the ability to create chakra by combining physical and spiritual energy. Not everyone is going around keep chakra in them all the time. And there are humongous number of people who don't have chakra but they lie because they have physical and spiritual energy.

"As Naruto explained to Kawaki, not using chakra =/= not having chakra"

That is clearly a statement that is being taken without the context of the series. Since part 1, character continuously state about people's chakra even when they are not creating chakra inside their body.

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In part 1, kakashi says "Naruto has the highest amount of chakra among all of them", even though all he did was create and use A LITTLE chakra to try to climb the tree. He obviously didn't create enough chakra as to be greater than even kakashi's in that instance. Here in that instance Kakashi is referring to the potential that Naruto has by judging the amount of physical and spiritual energy he has.
When Naruto tell's kawaki "everyone has chakra", he is simply just saying that. While in reality he only means that everyone can create chakra, Kawaki as well.

Before you say that that has been retconned, no that hasn't been retconned. Even in shippuden we see tobirama saying that he isn't infusing chakra, etc. And many other instances where chakra's composition has been stated.

"In part 1, kakashi says "Naruto has the highest amount of chakra among all of them", even though all he did was create and use A LITTLE chakra to try to climb the tree. He obviously didn't create enough chakra as to be greater than even kakashi's in that instance. Here in that instance Kakashi is referring to the potential that Naruto has by judging the amount of physical and spiritual energy he has. :"

Unlike humans who cannot use chakra but they live because they have spiritual and physical energy, ninjas who can use chakra, create chakra. And running out of chakra also means running out of the physical and spiritual energy they have in their body(because they cannot infuse anymore chakra cause of lack of physical and spiritual energy). Hence why they die. Pretty simply stuff.

To also address another of your arguments.

"Sage animals have chakra as well"

First you need to establish Katsuyu is a SAGE animal. I don't think it has ever been stated but I agree that I personally also think she is.

Second, here chakra can simply mean running out of sage chakra "because that's all they have".

In early Naruto series, all animals used to say they have ran out of "chakra". But in shippuden we went deeper into nature energy, sage chakra, etc and came to know in the war arc that all sage animals use nature energy attacks. That is what it is. Either you can accept that it was something that wasn't explained in the beginning or maybe its a retcon. That's up to you to decide.

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Anomalous

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#12  Edited By Anomalous

@adi_frost said:

Already been debunked.

"Jiraiya made it very clear that chakra in the brain is key"

No he didn't. He simply stated how genjutsu works. And the statement itself clearly shows that the second part isn't the most important part. It was just an explanation and there was no emphasis on that aspect that you think was emphasised.

"Senses are the most important part of genjutsu". Ok, and flour is the most important part of sugar cookies. You're still not going to make sure cookies with no sugar are you? I don't know what's hard to understand about multiple things being required. Forget the "this is more important than that" mentality. The explanation says that BOTH senses and chakra in the brain are key ingredients in the genjutsu recipe.

@adi_frost said:

"We've established that senses are linked to the chakra network right? It stands to reason that a burst of pain would also disrupt chakra flow and that's what is breaking the genjutsu. Not the pain itself."

Complete headcanon. Establish that pain can cause disruption in chakra otherwise this is headcanon. So the argument that "genjutsu doesn't require chakra because just like chakra, pain can also be used to get out of genjutsu" still stands.

Do you know know what the phrase stand to reason means? It's just a very logical conclusion based on the information that we do have. Sure, nowhere in the series is it said "pain disrupts chakra flow", but it's a very reasonable assumption. Don't act like those arguing that genjutsu doesn't require chakra make no inferences and only use word-for-word scans lol

@adi_frost said:

Can't be broken by a third party disrupting chakra flow. This is extremely important and suggests that IT is fundamentally different than all other genjutsu."

No, it doesn't suggest that IT is fundamentally different from all genjutsu. It just means IT is a stronger genjutsu/hax. That's just ONE effect that IT has, not that it makes IT fundamentally different from other genjutsu's in all other aspects as well. This is just a fallacy.

"It's a visual genjutsu that doesn't even require a line of sight to the target."

Again, just another aspect of IT that makes it different from a normal genjutsu but that doesn't mean every other aspect of it is different as well. Another fallacy.

"So, sure, Infinite Tsukuyomi works on people without chakra but it in no way represents how far inferior abilities work or what they are capable of"

Not really. All you established is that what all things are different in IT from a normal genjutsu. That doesn't make it an exception to ALL aspects of a genjutsu. That needs to be proven, which you can't because IT is simply a really strong genjutsu with some "unique" effects.

Your words: "IT is a stronger genjutsu/hax" ... "IT has multiple aspects that make it different from normal genjutsu"

but we should still use it as evidence of normal genjutsu not requiring chakra because...?

Jiraiya said "while in genjutsu, the chakra in your head is controlled by your opponent" and no genjutsu up to IT was shown to be unbreakable by disrupting chakra flow. IT just happens to be unbreakable in that way, suggesting that the target's chakra is irrelevant, but LET'S USE IT AS OUR EXAMPLE THAT ALL GENJUTSU DOESN'T REQUIRE CHAKRA. Laughable

@adi_frost said:

"As Naruto explained to Kawaki, not using chakra =/= not having chakra"

That is clearly a statement that is being taken without the context of the series. Since part 1, character continuously state about people's chakra even when they are not creating chakra inside their body.

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2

When Naruto tell's kawaki "everyone has chakra", he is simply just saying that. While in reality he only means that everyone can create chakra, Kawaki as well.

Before you say that that has been retconned, no that hasn't been retconned. Even in shippuden we see tobirama saying that he isn't infusing chakra, etc. And many other instances where chakra's composition has been stated.

Now which side of this debate is spouting head canon and changing words? Yes, the characters have to infuse chakra as they use it and I never said anything to suggest otherwise. Doesn't change the fact that they always have chakra. They die without it. I've already proven this... That even apllies to characters like Guy or Lee who rely 100% on physical attacks

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@adi_frost said:

Unlike humans who cannot use chakra but they live because they have spiritual and physical energy, ninjas who can use chakra, create chakra. And running out of chakra also means running out of the physical and spiritual energy they have in their body(because they cannot infuse anymore chakra cause of lack of physical and spiritual energy). Hence why they die. Pretty simply stuff.

LOL wtf am I reading? And you seriously try to talk to me about head canon? Ninjas are humans... The only difference is in their skill with using chakra. Prospective ninjas who don't cut it in the academy go on to be "humans" as you call them.

@adi_frost said:

"Sage animals have chakra as well"

1. First you need to establish Katsuyu is a SAGE animal. I don't think it has ever been stated but I agree that I personally also think she is.

2. Second, here chakra can simply mean running out of sage chakra "because that's all they have". In early Naruto series, all animals used to say they have ran out of "chakra". But in shippuden we went deeper into nature energy, sage chakra, etc and came to know in the war arc that all sage animals use nature energy attacks. That is what it is. Either you can accept that it was something that wasn't explained in the beginning or maybe its a retcon. That's up to you to decide.

1. Her main body is in Shikkotsu Forest which is one of the 3 sage regions along with Mount Myoboku (toads) and Ryuchi Cave (snakes). In fact Katsuyu is the only known resident of Shikkotsu Forest. So even if it wasn't explicitly stated that she's a sage animal you'd have to be pretty thick to argue against it.

2. Nature energy and chakra are combined to make senjutsu chakra. Senjutsu is not pure nature energy.

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Sup3rn0va

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Hey if people are going to make up weaknesses for Soul Crush, let's get rid of Genjutsu aswell.

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Daruma

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#14  Edited By Daruma

The user uses his chakra to attack their senses/nerves not their chakra.

This is why overflowing it breaks it because you're overpowering the Genjutsu users chakra not your own

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UltimateSage

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#15  Edited By UltimateSage

"Everyone having the ability to make chakra =/= everyone having chakra"

Literally debunked nothing, but only brought up debunked things

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Adi_Frost

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@anomalous: ""Senses are the most important part of genjutsu". Ok, and flour is the most important part of sugar cookies. You're still not going to make sure cookies with no sugar are you? I don't know what's hard to understand about multiple things being required. Forget the "this is more important than that" mentality. The explanation says that BOTH senses and chakra in the brain are key ingredients in the genjutsu recipe."

The statement in no way proves that chakra is a must for genjutsu to work. Nowhere does it state that. It simply says "it works on the five senses. To control the senses". This is proved by evidences of people without chakra falling under genjutsu multiple times throughout the series.

"Do you know know what the phrase stand to reason means? It's just a very logical conclusion based on the information that we do have. Sure, nowhere in the series is it said "pain disrupts chakra flow", but it's a very reasonable assumption"

Still an assumption based on no facts. Characters can use jutsu, fight and do things like walking on water, etc (which require steady and constant flow of chakra) even while they are exhausted and in excruciating pain. Not a reasonable assumption when there is clear evidence of the contrary.

"Don't act like those arguing that genjutsu doesn't require chakra make no inferences and only use word-for-word scans lol"

Mostly yes. @westwood_trevor has made a thread about this already using word for word evidence.

"IT is a stronger genjutsu/hax" ... "IT has multiple aspects that make it different from normal genjutsu"

but we should still use it as evidence of normal genjutsu not requiring chakra because...?"

Because you couldn't provide evidence to say that IT is different from a normal genjutsu in the aspect of not requiring chakra because you couldn't establish that normal genjutsu require chakra in the first place. Just because IT has some different effects doesn't suddenly make it different in every other aspect that can't be established. It's a fallacy. IT is just a stronger genjutsu, but still a genjutsu that does the same as most other genjutsu - Create illusions in their minds.

"while in genjutsu, the chakra in your head is controlled by your opponent" and no genjutsu up to IT was shown to be unbreakable by disrupting chakra flow"

Fallacy. Naruto tried to break itachi's genjutsu by disrupting his chakra but he couldn't, so sakura and chiyo had to do it for him. Clearly a difference in power of the genjutsu matters.

"IT just happens to be unbreakable in that way, suggesting that the target's chakra is irrelevant"

Yes, true.

"but LET'S USE IT AS OUR EXAMPLE THAT ALL GENJUTSU DOESN'T REQUIRE CHAKRA. Laughable"

False equalisation. Just because IT cannot be broken using chakra disruption doesn't mean chakra is a requirement for all genjutsu to work. Chakra disruption is a way to break a genjutsu and that does not prove chakra is a requirement for genjutsu to work. Means of breaking=/=means of working. Stupid argument.

"Now which side of this debate is spouting head canon and changing words? Yes, the characters have to infuse chakra as they use it and I never said anything to suggest otherwise. Doesn't change the fact that they always have chakra"

Lmao. No they don't have chakra all the time. Already proven by the scans I posted. Denying facts won't work here.

"They die without it. I've already proven this"

hahaha. You have proven nothing. A ninja dies when he has exhausted every last bit of chakra, including all the physical and spiritual energy in his body, so that he cannot infuse anymore chakra. Go learn the basics.

"That even apllies to characters like Guy or Lee who rely 100% on physical attacks"

Already proved my point using the scans which explain how chakra works and how it needs to be created for it to be used first. Infusing chakra and using up the spiritaul and physical energy in your body cause death.
Naruto even has X-ray panels where characters are shown not having any chakra in their body but then they create it in a certain part of their body to use a jutsu.

"LOL wtf am I reading? And you seriously try to talk to me about head canon?"

Looks like you don't even understand what headcanon is. Sad.

"Ninjas are humans"

See. You don't really know what you are talking about. NINJAS ARE HUMANS WHO CAN USE CHAKRA IN SOME WAY,SHAPE OR FORM. Otherwise every tom, dick and harry from Naruto would be a ninja, but they are not. Civilians who cannot use/create chakra exist because they have never learned how to do it. But everyone can learn.

"The only difference is in their skill with using chakra"

AND creating chakra.

"Prospective ninjas who don't cut it in the academy go on to be "humans" as you call them."

Lmao. Not everyone goes to the ninja academy. The majority of people in the Naruto verse are fodder who can't create or use chakra. YOU HAVE TO CREATE CHAKRA WHICH IS AN ESTABLISHED FACT. FODDER WHO CANNOT CREATE CHAKRA DON"T DIE BECAUSE THEY STILL HAVE ALL THE PHYSICAL AND SPIRITUAL ENERGY IN THEIR BODY. YOU ONLY CREATE CHAKRA WHEN YOU COMBINE THESE TWO AND YOU DIE WHEN YOU RUN OUT OF CHAKRA BECAUSE YOU DIDN"T JUST RUN OUT OF CHAKRA BUT ALSO THE SPIRITUAL AND PHYSICAL ENERGY IN YOUR BODY WHICH IS WHAT KEEPS YOUR BODY ALIVE.

"Her main body is in Shikkotsu Forest which is one of the 3 sage regions along with Mount Myoboku (toads) and Ryuchi Cave (snakes). In fact Katsuyu is the only known resident of Shikkotsu Forest. So even if it wasn't explicitly stated that she's a sage animal you'd have to be pretty thick to argue against it."

Like I said. I'd rather not make assumptions but in my personal opinion, I also think she is a sage animal.

"Nature energy and chakra are combined to make senjutsu chakra. Senjutsu is not pure nature energy."

I know. I agree that this argument cannot be used to establish that genjutsu works without chakra. But no worries, there are plenty others like already stated by many others and me.

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3

The first page shows that tobirama couldn't sense someone because he wasn't kneading/making/creating chakra which can be used for sensing. If he had chakra in his body, he wouldn't say this and could have sensed someone.

The second page shows how in one panel we see that there is no chakra flowing in neji's body while in the next panel we see how it looks we chakra flows through his chakra system that too in a very strong way.

The third page shows Kidomaru and how his body has no chakra but when he is about to use his jutsu, he creates chakra in only one part of the body, his head.

These instances prove that everyone doesn't have chakra all the time. Especially fodder non-ninja humans. They lack chakra, they don't have it even a bit. Because they don't know how to create it. And we have soo many instances of chakra lacking fodder humans getting caught in a genjutsu.

End of debate.

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UltimateSage

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@adi_frost: thank you, I was wondering whether or not if I should engage in this debate lol. I would have thought by now, with Westwoods clearly detailed explanation, that all the Genjutsu bs would be over.smh

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Revold

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#18  Edited By Revold

@ultimatesage: @adi_frost:

You mean this? https://comicvine.gamespot.com/profile/westwood_trevor/blog/naruto-why-genjutsu-works-on-people-without-chakra/132475/

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More or less I get the intention of the blog countering people who says Genjutsu doesn't work on people without chakra. But while I agree with the conclusion, I disagree with many points there. (In contrast I agree with many points here but disagree with the conclusion).

For example, Genjutsu manipulates the chakra flow through the cranial nerves first, then it manipulates the senses only as a consequence of that. With the exception of Izanami, which is SPECIFICALLY said to be different in this aspect.

Sensory information like pain are also transmitted to the brain via chakra. This is true regardless if you agree with me on the first point.

And like I said before, normal people have chakra too, just that they don't call it chakra. Genjutsu doesn't manipulate chakra, specifically it manipulates the spiritual energy, regardless of it being chakra or not.

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Adi_Frost

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@revold: "Genjutsu manipulates the chakra flow through the cranial nerves first, then it manipulates the senses only as a consequence of that"

Disagree. It was stated that genjutsu manipulates the senses first and then it manipulates the chakra as a consequence of that by linking the cranial nerves.

"With the exception of Izanami, which is SPECIFICALLY said to be different in this aspect."

Izanagi too as it doesn't require eye contact, as well kotoamatsukami.

"Sensory information like pain are also transmitted to the brain via chakra. This is true regardless if you agree with me on the first point."

Completely disagree. A ninja has the same body structure as a normal human with the addition of a chakra pathway system. But the ninja still have nerves, brain etc which transmit electric signals. So I don't have a reason to assume that chakra has any role in transmitting pain to the brain because the ninjas are exactly the same as humans in every other aspect. Infact, it was specifically stated that ninjas have nerves and that they transmit signals from the brain to the body and back.

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So nope. As you can see here, their sensory system of the body works just like humans(through electricity). It's this communication between the brain and body which also results in pain, therefore it has been proved that chakra has nothing to do with transmission/working of pain in a ninja's body.







"And like I said before, normal people have chakra too, just that they don't call it chakra"

Kinda true. People have spiritual and physical energy. Combining which you create chakra. So your statement does make sense but I just wanted to specify it. So it's not the same as chakra as the ninja's use in their jutsu. Hydrogen and water are completely different but when you combine them we get water which is completely different from it's components.

"Genjutsu doesn't manipulate chakra, specifically it manipulates the spiritual energy, regardless of it being chakra or not."

More like genjutsu in actuality is yin based ability which is the combination of spiritual energy and imagination. And it controls the senses of the opponent with the consequence of controlling their chakra(their spiritual energy).
What is spiritual energy now ?
It's something that everyone has. It is not something unique to naruto as a series. Same for physical energy. Both are stuff that everyone has, including aliens. It's the power of the mind you could say. It was explained by sakura in naruto part 1 but I am lazy to find the scans right now.

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Adi_Frost

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@adi_frost: thank you, I was wondering whether or not if I should engage in this debate lol. I would have thought by now, with Westwoods clearly detailed explanation, that all the Genjutsu bs would be over.smh

Yeah. This debate has been done a lot of times by now. But I guess it never ends.

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Revold

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@revold: "Genjutsu manipulates the chakra flow through the cranial nerves first, then it manipulates the senses only as a consequence of that"

Disagree. It was stated that genjutsu manipulates the senses first and then it manipulates the chakra as a consequence of that by linking the cranial nerves.

Genjutsu influence one sense first, and then the rest of the senses via chakra control. It doesn't manipulate all the senses at once. Even for the first sense it manipulates, for example the Sharingan on the eyes, only serves to implement the mechanics, and the Genjutsu itself doesn't take effect until the chakra is manipulated. So for different Genjutsu, for example Tsukuyomi vs normal Sharingan, the initial condition is the same: having eye contact. The difference is at how the chakra is being manipulated, not what they initially see.

"With the exception of Izanami, which is SPECIFICALLY said to be different in this aspect."

Izanagi too as it doesn't require eye contact, as well kotoamatsukami.

Completely missed my point. Izanami doesn't require eye contact because it acts on the senses directly. So what does that tell you about normal Genjutsu that requires eye contact?

"Sensory information like pain are also transmitted to the brain via chakra. This is true regardless if you agree with me on the first point."

Completely disagree. A ninja has the same body structure as a normal human with the addition of a chakra pathway system. But the ninja still have nerves, brain etc which transmit electric signals. So I don't have a reason to assume that chakra has any role in transmitting pain to the brain because the ninjas are exactly the same as humans in every other aspect. Infact, it was specifically stated that ninjas have nerves and that they transmit signals from the brain to the body and back.

No Caption Provided

So nope. As you can see here, their sensory system of the body works just like humans(through electricity). It's this communication between the brain and body which also results in pain, therefore it has been proved that chakra has nothing to do with transmission/working of pain in a ninja's body.

Your previous claim was that manipulating the senses manipulates the chakra by linking the cranial nerves. I'm not sure what you had in mind, but that sounds exactly like what I'm claiming now. Pain, cranial nerves, chakra etc. Your scan didn't debunk anything because I never claimed their sensory system is different. In fact it proves to me that you can convert chakra to/from electrical signals.

I don't claim that I know exactly how the sensory works in terms of chakra. Maybe it is being converted back before passing through the cranial nerves. But chakra does contain memories/consciousness, so it's not too far fetched that it contains sensory information too.

"Genjutsu doesn't manipulate chakra, specifically it manipulates the spiritual energy, regardless of it being chakra or not."

More like genjutsu in actuality is yin based ability which is the combination of spiritual energy and imagination. And it controls the senses of the opponent with the consequence of controlling their chakra(their spiritual energy).

What is spiritual energy now ?

It's something that everyone has. It is not something unique to naruto as a series. Same for physical energy. Both are stuff that everyone has, including aliens. It's the power of the mind you could say. It was explained by sakura in naruto part 1 but I am lazy to find the scans right now.

Yeah exactly my point is that Genjutsu manipulates spiritual energy, not chakra specifically, even though Jiraiya and many other people often just call it Chakra for simplicity sake. That's the conclusion part I said I agree with.

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Wot_m8

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#22  Edited By Wot_m8

Saying things like "Genjutsu only worked ever on those who had chakra" can be used on any ability in any fictional verse ever.

Oh, look at that, KS only ever worked on those with Reaitsu as such is useless against those without.

Even if you are right which you probably are, tis trash tier logic. In verse battles can never happen with that sort of mentality.

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Gurney88

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The force flows through everything in Star Wars and that's the only place it ever worked so I guess Jedi can't use their abilities in out of universe battles.

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Hypnos0929

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Everyone knows this already. Only Naruto fans refuse to believe it because it means their big hitters lose their best ability.

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Anomalous

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#25  Edited By Anomalous

@adi_frost said:

""Senses are the most important part of genjutsu". Ok, and flour is the most important part of sugar cookies. You're still not going to make sure cookies with no sugar are you? I don't know what's hard to understand about multiple things being required. Forget the "this is more important than that" mentality. The explanation says that BOTH senses and chakra in the brain are key ingredients in the genjutsu recipe."

The statement in no way proves that chakra is a must for genjutsu to work. Nowhere does it state that. It simply says "it works on the five senses. To control the senses".

"Genjutsu works on the five senses to control the senses" Is not what the statement says... If you're going to try and counter my points at least do me the courtesy of not making me post the same thing twice

No Caption Provided

Genjutsu works on the senses to control chakra

@adi_frost said:

"Don't act like those arguing that genjutsu doesn't require chakra make no inferences and only use word-for-word scans lol"

Mostly yes. @westwood_trevor has made a thread about this already using word for word evidence.

Lol far from it. This for example:

No Caption Provided

He claims that chakra is only flowing around Kidomaru's mouth when that was never stated to be the case. That's where chakra is building up in abundance but there is nothing at all to confirm that chakra isn't flowing through the rest of his body.

Or how about this line of thinking:

"Boruto The Movie: scientists created a ninja tool that allows people without chakra to use jutsu. They wouldn't need to create a tool like that if everyone had chakra"

Lol give me a break. Everyone has chakra but obviously not everyone can produce jonin level ninjutsu on their own. Forget about non-ninjas; this tool is useful for genin and chunin. What a nonsense argument.

@adi_frost said:

"IT is a stronger genjutsu/hax" ... "IT has multiple aspects that make it different from normal genjutsu"

but we should still use it as evidence of normal genjutsu not requiring chakra because...?"

Because you couldn't provide evidence to say that IT is different from a normal genjutsu in the aspect of not requiring chakra because you couldn't establish that normal genjutsu require chakra in the first place. Just because IT has some different effects doesn't suddenly make it different in every other aspect that can't be established. It's a fallacy. IT is just a stronger genjutsu, but still a genjutsu that does the same as most other genjutsu - Create illusions in their minds.

It's already an outlier in several major ways, so when it's the only genjutsu that has a feat of doing something (in this case working on people with no chakra) it's silly to apply that feat to far inferior abilities just because they both fall under the mind manipulation category and in-verse the only label for that is "genjutsu".

@adi_frost said:

"while in genjutsu, the chakra in your head is controlled by your opponent" and no genjutsu up to IT was shown to be unbreakable by disrupting chakra flow"

Fallacy. Naruto tried to break itachi's genjutsu by disrupting his chakra but he couldn't, so sakura and chiyo had to do it for him. Clearly a difference in power of the genjutsu matters.

Did you even read the OP? I covered this in literally the second point: Itachi had a stronger hold on Naruto's chakra than Naruto was able to overcome alone. A third party injecting their own chakra will always be a disruption to the target's chakra network and break genjutsu. There's nothing the genjutsu user can do to stop it.

@adi_frost said:

"IT just happens to be unbreakable in that way, suggesting that the target's chakra is irrelevant"

Yes, true.

So, in other words, you agree that how genjutsu can/can't be broken is relevant to how it functions but only when it agrees with what you want to believe? Sounds about right lol

@adi_frost said:

"but LET'S USE IT AS OUR EXAMPLE THAT ALL GENJUTSU DOESN'T REQUIRE CHAKRA. Laughable"

False equalisation. Just because IT cannot be broken using chakra disruption doesn't mean chakra is a requirement for all genjutsu to work. Chakra disruption is a way to break a genjutsu and that does not prove chakra is a requirement for genjutsu to work. Means of breaking=/=means of working. Stupid argument.

At some point you have to start using your brain. Take the Itachi example for instance:

2. Itachi had a tight hold on Naruto's chakra and Naruto couldn't disrupt his chakra flow enough to break the genjutsu

2. Chiyo and Sakura inject their chakra into Naruto, disrupting the chakra flow and instantly breaking the genjutsu

2 + 2 = the chakra being controlled is what allows genjutsu to function

@adi_frost said:

"Now which side of this debate is spouting head canon and changing words? Yes, the characters have to infuse chakra as they use it and I never said anything to suggest otherwise. Doesn't change the fact that they always have chakra"

Lmao. No they don't have chakra all the time. Already proven by the scans I posted. Denying facts won't work here.

The first sentence in the first scan you posted says "this is a simplified chart". Trying to use that as proof that people can survive with absolutely no chakra is... lol.

@adi_frost said:

"They die without it. I've already proven this"

hahaha. You have proven nothing. A ninja dies when he has exhausted every last bit of chakra, including all the physical and spiritual energy in his body, so that he cannot infuse anymore chakra. Go learn the basics.

"That even apllies to characters like Guy or Lee who rely 100% on physical attacks"

Already proved my point using the scans which explain how chakra works and how it needs to be created for it to be used first. Infusing chakra and using up the spiritaul and physical energy in your body cause death.

Oh my God dude there are multiple scans proving that no chakra = death.

No Caption Provided
No Caption Provided
No Caption Provided
No Caption Provided

You tell me, is the attitude in these "it's cool maybe they're just done fighting and not infusing any chakra right now"? Get real... Or keep relying on that over simplified kindergarten quality graph. Your call.

@adi_frost said:

Naruto even has X-ray panels where characters are shown not having any chakra in their body but then they create it in a certain part of their body to use a jutsu.

Such as? Let me guess, the scan of Kidomaru that I debunked above? Find a new thread to copy and paste from or come up with your own arguments please. I've already seen @westwood_trevor's

@adi_frost said:

"Ninjas are humans"

See. You don't really know what you are talking about. NINJAS ARE HUMANS WHO CAN USE CHAKRA IN SOME WAY,SHAPE OR FORM. Otherwise every tom, dick and harry from Naruto would be a ninja, but they are not. Civilians who cannot use/create chakra exist because they have never learned how to do it. But everyone can learn.

"The only difference is in their skill with using chakra"

AND creating chakra.

"Prospective ninjas who don't cut it in the academy go on to be "humans" as you call them."

Lmao. Not everyone goes to the ninja academy. The majority of people in the Naruto verse are fodder who can't create or use chakra. YOU HAVE TO CREATE CHAKRA WHICH IS AN ESTABLISHED FACT. FODDER WHO CANNOT CREATE CHAKRA DON"T DIE BECAUSE THEY STILL HAVE ALL THE PHYSICAL AND SPIRITUAL ENERGY IN THEIR BODY. YOU ONLY CREATE CHAKRA WHEN YOU COMBINE THESE TWO AND YOU DIE WHEN YOU RUN OUT OF CHAKRA BECAUSE YOU DIDN"T JUST RUN OUT OF CHAKRA BUT ALSO THE SPIRITUAL AND PHYSICAL ENERGY IN YOUR BODY WHICH IS WHAT KEEPS YOUR BODY ALIVE.

Everyone is born with a chakra network (we agree on that; "everyone can learn to use chakra") and dies with no chakra. I've proven this, what, 5 times now? It's clear that you want the word chakra at every point it's used in the series to mean chakra + spirit energy + physical energy, but it doesn't. I'm done trying to convince you. We can let anyone who may be reading this decide who better backed up their claim.

@adi_frost said:

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3

1. The first page shows that tobirama couldn't sense someone because he wasn't kneading/making/creating chakra which can be used for sensing. If he had chakra in his body, he wouldn't say this and could have sensed someone.

2. The second page shows how in one panel we see that there is no chakra flowing in neji's body while in the next panel we see how it looks we chakra flows through his chakra system that too in a very strong way.

3. The third page shows Kidomaru and how his body has no chakra but when he is about to use his jutsu, he creates chakra in only one part of the body, his head.

Lol called it. Lazy copy pasting. Ok let's do this

1: This does not say "I have absolutely no chakra at all in my body and therefore can't sense anyone" in the slightest. You were saying something about you guys using only word-for-word scans in this debate? That's about as word-twisty as it gets

2 & 3: As I said above, these scans aren't showing "no chakra". They're showing chakra at rest compared to chakra while using a technique. Do you really believe that Neji goes from 0% chakra to having it burst from every chakra point on his body in an instant? Please.

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Anomalous

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@wot_m8 said:

Saying things like "Genjutsu only worked ever on those who had chakra" can be used on any ability in any fictional verse ever.

Oh, look at that, KS only ever worked on those with Reaitsu as such is useless against those without.

The difference is that KS was never stated to require the target having Reiatsu to function.

@gurney88 said:

The force flows through everything in Star Wars and that's the only place it ever worked so I guess Jedi can't use their abilities in out of universe battles.

Same as above. Idk a great deal about star wars but if it's entirely about the inner force of the character then there's no reason their powers shouldn't work on characters from other verses

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Insertnewname

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But who was the cat who fell under genjutsu?

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Wot_m8

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@anomalous: That's not really the point. The argument that a certain ability only worked in its verse so it is unusable would make any ability unusable in vsbattle... since they only ever worked in their own verse.

So, in this case, if Genjutsu can't work in versebattles, KS can't either coz that would be hypocrisy... or any other ability ever.

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Anomalous

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@wot_m8 said:

@anomalous: That's not really the point. The argument that a certain ability only worked in its verse so it is unusable would make any ability unusable in vsbattle... since they only ever worked in their own verse.

So, in this case, if Genjutsu can't work in versebattles, KS can't either coz that would be hypocrisy... or any other ability ever.

My argument isn't that genjutsu only works on characters with chakra because it only has feats in Narutoverse. It's that genjutsu only works on characters with chakra because we have explanation saying as much and evidence to support it.

Whether or not the way it functions should be ignored in cross-verse battles to allow genjutsu users their full moveset is a different discussion. On one hand I think yes, but on the other "genjutsu gg" is way overused in battles that are otherwise a mismatch. So if you want genjutsu to be relevant in your thread the easy solution is to equalize energies

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Wot_m8

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@anomalous: Hmm, I do recall Genjutsu working on random stray animals. IT did too.

Regardless, we can agree on "Genjutsu GG" and energy equalization part.

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Daruma

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I countered this in a message with the OP and he hasn't acknowledged it.

When Naruto fights the 30% clone of Itachi he uses everything he was taught in the scans the OP used and Naruto states clear as day he can't disrupt Itachi's chakra meaning Itachi is manipulating his own chakra to attack Naruto's senses and not Naruto's chakra.

This is further backed up by the fact that in Itachi's Novel it's stated that he injects his chakra into the targets nervous system.

So the target doesn't require chakra in fact it would probably make it easier for the Genjutsu because without chakra you can't disrupt the flow of the Genjutsu chakra.

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BabyHoldMyHand

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#32  Edited By BabyHoldMyHand

@joshtaku said:

While I do agree with your points, I'd like to point out that sharingan genjutsu works on sage creatures who do not have chakra; like how sasuke used it on manda.

But yeah, I agree with this thread. Most people just tend to forget that most genjutsu works this way.

You can't have sage chakra without having the other energies that make chakra, having sage chakra is just mixing natural energy with your chakra in a perfect balance.

No Caption Provided

Animals have chakra. How do you think Naruto can be reverse summoned to Mount Myoboku?

How do you think Gamabunta and Gamatatsu use Water Release techniques?

How do you think Enma transforms into a staff?

No Caption Provided

Akamaru has chakra.

Yes, natural energy is different from chakra. It's collected from the natural environment. The White Snake Sage uses senjutsu which is natural energy mixed with chakra. The snakes in the ryuchi caves have chakra. According to the rules, if a candidate fails at any of the trials, the snakes are allowed to devour them and consume their chakra. Why would the snakes consume chakra if they don't have chakra? How do they teach sage chakra in the first place.

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Gurney88

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#33  Edited By Gurney88

@anomalous: With Star Wars there would be more validity to saying the force wouldn't work on an outside character. In the expanded universe there's a race called the Yuuzhan Vong who are totally outside the force and direct force attacks don't work very well on them. They can't be sensed through the force, their emotions can't be read, and moving them with the force was very difficult. A force push that would ragdoll a normal person would make a Yuuzhan Vong lose their balance or stumble a bit. You could argue that if a character from some other universe went into Star Wars they'd have the same resistances.

There are still easy ways around it, though. You can throw a rock at them with the force and it'll hit just as hard and instead of sensing them the normal way you can just sense that there's an absence of force. They weren't immune to force lightning, either.

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BabyHoldMyHand

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#34  Edited By BabyHoldMyHand

@wot_m8 said:

Saying things like "Genjutsu only worked ever on those who had chakra" can be used on any ability in any fictional verse ever.

Oh, look at that, KS only ever worked on those with Reaitsu as such is useless against those without.

Even if you are right which you probably are, tis trash tier logic. In verse battles can never happen with that sort of mentality.

KS is a spell and isn't mentioned to require energy, but KS can be released by releasing reiatsu stronger than the opponents, but since no one had more reiatsu than Aizen, no one could escape Aizen's version of KS. It just affects all senses of the soul. Yes, Reikaku (Ichigo used Reiakaku to see Ginjo after he cut off his eyes with his sword.) is affected since it doesn't help people find Aizen and later mentioned in the light novels to be affected when Tokinada used a copy of KS. KS doesn't just affect the five senses, but any six sense as well.

Standing before him was Hisagi Shuhei, looking straight at him with blazing eyes.

“You.. you were supposed to be under ‘complete hypnosis’...”

Aura had stopped the further initialization of the Shikai, but Kyoraku’s group was still under its influence. Hisagi, who had also seen it before it was sealed, but after Kyoraku’s group saw it, should have been even more strongly hypnotized. The scenery reflected in his eyes, fluctuations in reiatsu, even the sound of the wind, ought to be misidentified.

Hisagi was no longer operating in the dark, he was looking straight at Tokinada. But his visual, auditory and olfactory senses as well as reikaku should not be functioning properly. Therefore it should have been impossible to grasp Tokinada’s exact location from just his conversation with Ginjo and Aura. It was impossible to attack unless one could cancel out the hypnosis by releasing reiatsu of Aizen’s level.

There were other reasons as to why Tokinada had been caught completely off guard by Hisagi.

A piece of cloth fluttered between Tokinada and Hisagi. It was the mantle that completely masks reiatsu; the one which he had worn earlier and then thrown aside.

-Did you wrap Kazeshini in it before throwing?

-So that I wouldn’t feel its reiatsu?

-So you began rotating the blade just before wrapping it up?

-Is that how you cut off my arm?

Tokinada couldn’t understand. He had made sure that the cloak had been misidentified as sand.

Was it possible that Hisagi had not actually seen the Shikai of Kyoka Suigetsu?

But surely I had shown it to him the instant his eyes opened.

I did see Hisagi’s astonished look and subsequent confusion.

-...Wait.

-Confusion?

It took him just one second to understand. Tokinada turned his face towards one Shinigami. Hirako Shinji.

Hirako was exhausted and he could barely hoist himself on one knee. Despite his condition, he was grinning confidently.

“You know.. I was actually saving this for when Aizen showed his Shikai to Ichigo. But I never got a chance to do it since Aizen never used Kyoka Suigetsu on Ichigo.”

“But perhaps Aizen did it deliberately.”

It was Kyoraku who spoke. He and Nanao appeared beside Hirako and picked up the handle of ‘Enrakyoten’ that had fallen to the ground.

“We were saved because you were so prompt, Captain Hirako. And Lieutenant Hisagi himself, who was so quick to respond, even though he did not know about it then.”

“Well... it would have been a lot more difficult to pull off this kind of stunt against someone like Aizen.”

Hirako said so fairly, while swinging Sakanade from his wrist. It was in its Shikai state, but Tokinada did not remember Sakanade being able to reverse the visibility and hearing of illusions.

Then, whom did he use that power on?

As the answer came to Tokinada in a flash, Hirako told him,

“Oh, you poor simpleton!”

Hirako had not used Sakanade on Tokinada; he had used it on Hisagi instead. At the exact moment when Tokinada had shown Hisagi the release of Kyoka Suigetsu.

Since the front and back were reversed, Hisagi had not actually seen the release of the Shikai. His look of astonishment was because he had been shocked and confused that everything before his eyes was inverted; front, back, left, right, above, below. It was all upside down.

When Tokinada finally understood what was going on, he turned his eyes towards Kyoraku to take away the zanpakuto from his hand. But before he knew it, the hilt disappeared from Kyoraku’s hand; and it could not be found anywhere.

“Sorry about that. But Okyo has already hidden your zanpakuto away.”

{t/n: Okyo is Kyokotsu. Term of endearment. Shunsui uses ’Ohana’ for Katen and ‘Okyo’ for Kyokotsu}

Kyoraku informed Tokinada sweetly.

“Hey now... You don’t want to keep me waiting, do you?”

The voice was heard from behind Tokinada. It was already too late by then.

A Getsuga Tensho released by Ginjo struck Tokinada’s body obliquely.

Red blood blossomed like flowers as it danced high up in the sky of the Kyogoku.

Sauce.

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Sup3rn0va

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So is this like a proven thing now? I haven't seen anyone really counter his arguments.

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Daruma

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@sup3rn0va: post 31.

It's proven in the manga that the Genjutsu user uses his chakra to attack their senses not their chakra.

You can read the Itachi Novel to confirm this yourself or you can read/watch the fight between Naruto and Itachi in which Naruto says the same thing he's fighting Itachi's chakra and not his own chakra.

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Sup3rn0va

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#37  Edited By Sup3rn0va

@daruma said:

@sup3rn0va: post 31.

It's proven in the manga that the Genjutsu user uses his chakra to attack their senses not their chakra.

You can read the Itachi Novel to confirm this yourself or you can read/watch the fight between Naruto and Itachi in which Naruto says the same thing he's fighting Itachi's chakra and not his own chakra.

Even so, lets say Sharingan users put Chakra into their opponent, you'd still need a Chakra network for that to work.

Also, the evidence this dude provided + one or two statements where Jiraiya explains Genjutsu and how it works via Chakra can't just be ignored.

I mean the biggest counters to this argument were when Itachi put that chick under Genjutsu and when Sage creatures were put under Genjutsu, but this guy countered both of those.

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Daruma

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@sup3rn0va: I'm just going to use Itachi as an example

it's not ignored the evidence he posted is countered by him misinterpreting what was actually said in that scan.

What Jiriya is saying is that Itachi is using his own chakra to link with the targets nervous system and manipulate the senses. He isn't saying anything about manipulating the users chakra. Think about it. If he was manipulating their chakra how would the victim have trouble breaking out? They could just stop using chakra all together which we the fight i cited shows isn't how that works.

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Sup3rn0va

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@daruma said:

@sup3rn0va: I'm just going to use Itachi as an example

it's not ignored the evidence he posted is countered by him misinterpreting what was actually said in that scan.

I disagree

What Jiriya is saying is that Itachi is using his own chakra to link with the targets nervous system and manipulate the senses.

"Your Chakra is under your opponents control", I really don't see how you can interpret this differently.

He isn't saying anything about manipulating the users chakra.

"Your Chakra is under your opponents control"... That's literally what he's saying.

Think about it. If he was manipulating their chakra how would the victim have trouble breaking out? They could just stop using chakra all together which we the fight i cited shows isn't how that works.

Except this is what Jiraiya literally says to do

No Caption Provided

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Daruma

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#40  Edited By Daruma

@sup3rn0va:

Well maybe once Itachi has control he can also control the victims chakra. This still doesn't change the fact that Genjutsu works via using your own chakra to attack the senses and this is actually shown in the novels and again in Naruto's fight against Itachi.

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Sup3rn0va

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@daruma said:

@sup3rn0va:

He doesn't say your chakra he says the chakra in your head.

Do you have the official translation?

Meaning the chakra Itachi placed there because that's how Genjutsu works like I said you can go read the novel.

And secondly Naruto did just that in the battle and it didn't work because he couldn't overpower Itachi's chakra.

Jiraiya said that might not work all the time so have someone else disrupt your Chakra.

This all comes back to Itachi's chakra not the victims a lack of chakra won't stop the Genjutsu it will only stop your ability to break out.

Again though, as I said earlier. Itachi can't put Chakra into you if you don't have a Chakra network.

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Arthur_Morgan

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@daruma: he literaly says your chakra in the scan.

lmao.

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Sup3rn0va

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@daruma: he literaly says your chakra in the scan.

lmao.

Could be a mistranslation, I doubt any of us have access to the VIZ or original Japanese though.

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Daruma

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#44  Edited By Daruma

@arthur_morgan: @sup3rn0va: I don't have the Japanese version.

And like I said in my post it's possible after he uses Genjutsu he can control your chakra but that's after the fact. Genjutsu works via injecting your own chakra into the victim and hijacking his senses. That's why disrupting the chakra breaks it and that's why someone else can pour chakra into you and wake you up by dispelling the attackers chakra.

All that proves is that it can also control chakra aswell as senses that doesn't mean you need chakra for it to work.

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Daruma

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@daruma said:

@sup3rn0va:

He doesn't say your chakra he says the chakra in your head.

Do you have the official translation?

Meaning the chakra Itachi placed there because that's how Genjutsu works like I said you can go read the novel.

And secondly Naruto did just that in the battle and it didn't work because he couldn't overpower Itachi's chakra.

Jiraiya said that might not work all the time so have someone else disrupt your Chakra.

This all comes back to Itachi's chakra not the victims a lack of chakra won't stop the Genjutsu it will only stop your ability to break out.

Again though, as I said earlier. Itachi can't put Chakra into you if you don't have a Chakra network.

He does say your chakra I just saw that part but I said in my other post just now that only means he can also control chakra. And no I don't have the raw Japanese scan wouldn't help anyways I can't read Japanese.

Yes which makes even more sense when thinking about how it works via the attack injecting his own chakra, the allies would be pushing his chakra out.

He puts the chakra into the nervous system.

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Sup3rn0va

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#46  Edited By Sup3rn0va

@daruma said:
@sup3rn0va said:
@daruma said:

@sup3rn0va:

He doesn't say your chakra he says the chakra in your head.

Do you have the official translation?

Meaning the chakra Itachi placed there because that's how Genjutsu works like I said you can go read the novel.

And secondly Naruto did just that in the battle and it didn't work because he couldn't overpower Itachi's chakra.

Jiraiya said that might not work all the time so have someone else disrupt your Chakra.

This all comes back to Itachi's chakra not the victims a lack of chakra won't stop the Genjutsu it will only stop your ability to break out.

Again though, as I said earlier. Itachi can't put Chakra into you if you don't have a Chakra network.

He does say your chakra I just saw that part but I said in my other post just now that only means he can also control chakra. And no I don't have the raw Japanese scan wouldn't help anyways I can't read Japanese.

Yes which makes even more sense when thinking about how it works via the attack injecting his own chakra, the allies would be pushing his chakra out.

He puts the chakra into the nervous system.

Do you have a scan stating this (Or an extract of text from the novel)? Also, the credibility of the Itachi Shinden novel is questionable anyway since it contradicts various Genjutsu rules like Genjutsu being unable to kill people.

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Daruma

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@sup3rn0va: well it says in the scans above that it attacks the nervous system and the senses first then it mentions that it controls chakra so that would be it's secondary effect.

I'll have to look through the novel I don't have the page number in mind.

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Sup3rn0va

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@daruma said:

@sup3rn0va: well it says in the scans above that it attacks the nervous system and the senses first then it mentions that it controls chakra so that would be it's secondary effect.

Yeah, I mean implanting Chakra into the nervous system.

I'll have to look through the novel I don't have the page number in mind.

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#49  Edited By Anomalous

@daruma said:

I countered this in a message with the OP and he hasn't acknowledged it.

Sorry, I was at work. Mostly agree with @sup3rn0va's replies. Especially that even if it worked how you're saying the target would still need a chakra network for the genjutsu user to inject into.

@daruma said:

When Naruto fights the 30% clone of Itachi he uses everything he was taught in the scans the OP used and Naruto states clear as day he can't disrupt Itachi's chakra meaning Itachi is manipulating his own chakra to attack Naruto's senses and not Naruto's chakra.

He never said anything about Itachi's chakra

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Daruma

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@anomalous: he litterally says he can't overcome it in that scan.

And like I said your argument doesn't prove that Chakra is required only that Genjutsu can control chakra.