Game of Thrones Unpopularity Contest Round 5: Robert or Stannis Baratheon?

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Posted by shroudofsorrow (6249 posts) 4 months, 3 days ago

Poll: Game of Thrones Unpopularity Contest Round 5: Robert or Stannis Baratheon? (18 votes)

Robert 28%
Stannis 72%

Round 5 of the ongoing GoT Unpopularity Contest is a battle of the Baratheons. In one corner, Robert, who was overjoyed by the Mountain's heinous crimes against Elia Martell and her children and who waged a war because he got passed up for another man plus trying to kill the infant Daenerys.

And in the other corner, the once noble Stannis who from a combination of trying to win the throne and listening to Melisandre devolved into a jerk who had people burned at the stake, including his own daughter Shireen (though he did regret this).

Which Baratheon is more loathsome? Vote now!

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#2 Posted by BladeOfFury (3895 posts) - - Show Bio

Robert was a good person. Stannis didn't shed a tear as his only daughter burned to death.

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#3 Posted by FaradaySloth (12210 posts) - - Show Bio

I liked both characters, but I guess I have to pick Robert since he was gone quickly and he was a terrible king. Though it turns out he was right in the end, they should've killed Daenerys when they had the chance.

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#4 Edited by shroudofsorrow (6249 posts) - - Show Bio

@bladeoffury said:

Robert was a good person. Stannis didn't shed a tear as his only daughter burned to death.

I would hardly call attempted infanticide, approving of the infanticide, rape, and murder of your enemy's children and wife, and starting a war because you got dumped being a "good person". And I think Stannis did regret his daughter's death. It's why he accepted Brienne's killing him.

And before anyone tries to justify Robert's attempted infanticide based on Daenerys going crazy, 1) he had no way of knowing for a fact that would happen, 2) it only happened because of bad writing, and 3) the reason everyone hates that episode is because she behaved wildly out of character.

@faradaysloth said:

I liked both characters, but I guess I have to pick Robert since he was gone quickly and he was a terrible king. Though it turns out he was right in the end, they should've killed Daenerys when they had the chance.

Only because of bad writing. Had Daenerys stayed in-character, Robert would have been wrong. He was wrong for seven and a half seasons.

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#5 Posted by BladeOfFury (3895 posts) - - Show Bio

@shroudofsorrow: Infanticide to prevent mass genocide is justified. Since season 1, Daenerys was building an army to wage war, war that would have taken thousands of lives. It was one life against many.

Robert likely started the war because he knew the Mad King would cause much more damage. He was right, and the Mad King was about to blow up a whole city.

Can you remind me of the rape?

It doesn't matter whether Stannis regretted it or not. He did it. It's horrible.

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#7 Edited by shroudofsorrow (6249 posts) - - Show Bio

@bladeoffury said:

@shroudofsorrow: Infanticide to prevent mass genocide is justified. Since season 1, Daenerys was building an army to wage war, war that would have taken thousands of lives. It was one life against many.

Robert likely started the war because he knew the Mad King would cause much more damage. He was right, and the Mad King was about to blow up a whole city.

Can you remind me of the rape?

It doesn't matter whether Stannis regretted it or not. He did it. It's horrible.

Except Daenerys had never intended to do that. And war=/=genocide. If Robert equated those two, he'd have never started his own war for petty reasons. He did not start it out of hatred for the Mad King. You give him too much credit. He started it because he hated that Lyanna had run off with Rhaegar instead of him. Robert was fueled by pettiness and vindictiveness. He also had no way of knowing any of the things Daenerys would do if she lived to adulthood. He could not see the future. He wanted her dead because she was Targaryen and he hated Targaryens.

And yes, he also approved of Gregor Clegane's raping Elia Martell, killing her, and killing her children, who he referred to as "dragon spawn". That was so bad it caused him and Ned to briefly have a falling out.

Robert was not a good person. He was a petty, vindictive bully who was fine with starting a war and killing children (or trying to kill them), because he got dumped.

Besides, your "one against the many" rationale is exactly what Stannis used for justifying killing his own daughter; her sacrifice would supposedly let his army win. One life for many.

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#8 Edited by shroudofsorrow (6249 posts) - - Show Bio

Also, I would like it known that I don't necessarily think Robert is worse than Stannis. I just challenge the idea that he was "good", which is not well supported at all. Maybe as a king he was better, but even then he had a psychotic hatred for all Targaryens no matter how innocent.

@foxerdes said:

Stannis but only because of the show.

GRRM has confirmed that Stannis will kill his daughter in the books also. That's why they did it in the show. So he's destined to become a monster in the books also.

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#9 Edited by rogueshadow (29601 posts) - - Show Bio

Robert wasn't overjoyed by the deaths of Rhaegar's children or the crimes of Gregor and he didn't wage a war because he was passed up by Lyanna. Daenerys wasn't an infant but a teenager pregnant to a warlord who had promised her brother they'd take back Westeros.

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#10 Posted by BladeOfFury (3895 posts) - - Show Bio

@shroudofsorrow: The technical terms are of no relevance. War kills thousands of people. One life against many.

You will have to prove that Robert didn't take the Mad King's actions into consideration. While revenge was definitely a driving force, it doesn't discount the possibility that Robert also wanted to put an end to the Mad King's crimes.

Robert knew two Targaryens survived. He knew that they will be nurtured from early childhood, taught that the Baratheons were evil. It was highly probable that they would start a war. He was right. Since season 1, Daenerys was building an army.

And no, Robert didn't approve of Gregor raping Elia. He simply didn't punish him for it. That's still bad, but not nearly as bad as approving it.

The "one against many" argument would also apply to Stannis if it was anyone but Shireen getting burned. Stannis' reaction, or rather, its absence, demonstrates his cold nature.

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#11 Posted by BladeOfFury (3895 posts) - - Show Bio

@rogueshadow: Robert didn't try killing Daenerys when she was a baby? Only when we saw on screen? If that's the case, he definitely isn't loathsome.

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#12 Edited by shroudofsorrow (6249 posts) - - Show Bio

@rogueshadow said:

Robert wasn't overjoyed by the deaths of Rhaegar's children or the crimes of Gregor and he didn't wage a war because he was passed up by Lyanna. Daenerys wasn't an infant but a teenager pregnant to a warlord who had promised her brother they'd take back Westeros.

"I see no children here. Only dragon spawn". He seemed pretty fine with it to me. Of course, that might have been in the books rather than the show, so there is that.

Also, Daenerys explicitly tells Jon that Robert had sent assassins to kill her when she was an infant. Is that not attempted infanticide?

And Robert's Rebellion was fueled at least in part by his rage over Rhaegar running off with Lyanna. It was he who clung to the idea that Rhaegar had raped Lyanna and used that as justification for his war and his murderous hatred for Rhaegar. Or at least, that has always been my understanding of the events.

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#13 Edited by shroudofsorrow (6249 posts) - - Show Bio

@bladeoffury said:

@shroudofsorrow: The technical terms are of no relevance. War kills thousands of people. One life against many.

You will have to prove that Robert didn't take the Mad King's actions into consideration. While revenge was definitely a driving force, it doesn't discount the possibility that Robert also wanted to put an end to the Mad King's crimes.

Robert knew two Targaryens survived. He knew that they will be nurtured from early childhood, taught that the Baratheons were evil. It was highly probable that they would start a war. He was right. Since season 1, Daenerys was building an army.

And no, Robert didn't approve of Gregor raping Elia. He simply didn't punish him for it. That's still bad, but not nearly as bad as approving it.

The "one against many" argument would also apply to Stannis if it was anyone but Shireen getting burned. Stannis' reaction, or rather, its absence, demonstrates his cold nature.

No, it applies regardless.

And yes, the technical terms are of relevance. Killing enemy soldiers who can defend themselves in a war is not the same as a genocide. And yes, Daenerys was building an army, and she was also liberating slaves and putting a stop to slave traders at the same time. She couldn't have done that if she had been killed. And again, Robert was fine with waging a war when it was his own anger driving it. So he has little grounds for getting offended by Daenerys wanting to take back what was her birthright from a man who murdered her brother out of spite. Her justifications are no worse than his own.

And not punishing Gregor for the act is itself a form of approval. And yes, he DID approve it. "I see no children here. Only dragon spawn." That's a horrible thing to say in the face of child murdering.

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#14 Edited by SocaJunkie (9659 posts) - - Show Bio

@shroudofsorrow: It wasn’t mentioned in the show but Robert didn’t the rebellion: Jon Arryn did when the Mad King sent a raven asking him to deliver the heads of Robert and Ned after he killed Rickard and Brandon died, so Jon called his banners, as did his wards. Robert was the spear-head of the rebellion.

Rhaegar ‘kidnapping’ Lyanna wasn’t the main reason though yes it was the fuel for Robert. Robert and Ned were enemies of the Crown and of course Jon was like a father to them so war was the only option.

Anyway if we’re talking Show only here then Stannis cuz daughter burning. Books then Robert I suppose given that Stannis hadn’t done anything that bad aside from potentially burning his nephew Edric had Davos not intervened and Robert didn’t care about his Kingly duties, ‘Kids’ or bastard children.

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#15 Edited by shroudofsorrow (6249 posts) - - Show Bio

@socajunkie: That won't be the case forever. D&D have confirmed that Shireen will die in the books too, and in the same way. That was why they did it. Because Stannis will do it in the books also.

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#16 Posted by TheVVitchKing (1397 posts) - - Show Bio

GODS HE WAS STRONG THEN

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#17 Edited by ovy7 (4056 posts) - - Show Bio

I really like Bobby B, especially after reading AGoT, and Stannis himself isn't that bad honestly, but considering that this is an unpopularity poll I'll go with Stannis.

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#18 Posted by Thorthunder98 (6949 posts) - - Show Bio

Looking at all this Bobby B slander:

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#19 Edited by AlphaQ (6760 posts) - - Show Bio

These characters are equally unappealing to me.

I will say I dislike Robert more, it was implied that he would've had Cersei's kids executed alongside her if he found out their heritage. Joffrey I can maybe understand, but the other two were innocents. That's honestly worse than what Stannis did, though that's more of a "who is the biggest loser" scenario.

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#20 Posted by shroudofsorrow (6249 posts) - - Show Bio
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#21 Posted by SocaJunkie (9659 posts) - - Show Bio

@shroudofsorrow: That may be the case, however it hasn’t happened yet so I can’t use that as a mark against book Stannis.

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#22 Edited by rogueshadow (29601 posts) - - Show Bio

@shroudofsorrow said:
@rogueshadow said:

Robert wasn't overjoyed by the deaths of Rhaegar's children or the crimes of Gregor and he didn't wage a war because he was passed up by Lyanna. Daenerys wasn't an infant but a teenager pregnant to a warlord who had promised her brother they'd take back Westeros.

"I see no children here. Only dragon spawn". He seemed pretty fine with it to me. Of course, that might have been in the books rather than the show, so there is that.

Also, Daenerys explicitly tells Jon that Robert had sent assassins to kill her when she was an infant. Is that not attempted infanticide?

And Robert's Rebellion was fueled at least in part by his rage over Rhaegar running off with Lyanna. It was he who clung to the idea that Rhaegar had raped Lyanna and used that as justification for his war and his murderous hatred for Rhaegar. Or at least, that has always been my understanding of the events.

  • He was never happy. That was a cold and broken man trying to push away the guilt. He wasn't singing and dancing about it. It's made clear that Robert did not want to do it, he was only happy that Tywin did it for him so as to maintain his heroic image. In the context of this feudal system, Rhaegar's children had to die for his line to be secured. He certainly wasn't happy about Elia, even Tywin said that was unnecessarily savage, but that he did not know the manner of beast Gregor was at the time.
  • Daenerys was in no position to know the truth of it. It is only said that Viserys believed this to be the case. He was (justifiably) paranoid and always believed the "usurper's dogs" were a step behind them. In AGOT, Robert himself says he has left it too long, strongly suggesting that he hadn't made any moves against them beforehand.
  • Lyanna was his betrothed and it was believed she had been kidnapped and repeatedly raped. This wasn't a fiction developed by Robert, but a "truth" generally believed. It was not until the murder of Rickard and Brandon and Aerys' subsequent call for Robert/Ned's heads that war was waged.
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#23 Edited by Omnipotent94 (1523 posts) - - Show Bio

I am the going with Robert here. He was a terrible king and was going to get Danerys killed forever no reason at all.

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#24 Posted by rogueshadow (29601 posts) - - Show Bio

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#25 Posted by shroudofsorrow (6249 posts) - - Show Bio
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#26 Posted by KingOfWakanda (3380 posts) - - Show Bio

Voted for Stannis. Screw that guy

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#27 Posted by JohnCena69swag (4185 posts) - - Show Bio

Bobby B and the Mannis? I cant hate on either of these two.

STOP THIS MADNESS IN THE NAME OF YOUR KING!!!

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#28 Posted by ParagonNate (4669 posts) - - Show Bio

@shroudofsorrow: Dany has always been extremely harsh to those she deems her enemies or obstacles between her and the throne. She left multiple prosperous city states in cultural, economic, and actual physical ruin behind her in her quest for power. She's committed murder on a mass scale before (Justified or not). Her killing a mass of faceless nameless people in her grief driven rage when she lost one of her only friends didn't come out of no where. Was it badly written? Eh, sure, but it is far from unfeasible.

Also, Stannis burned his only child (whom he claimed to love) alive for the sake of power. He's an irredeemable monster.

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#29 Posted by ReaperTheGrim (1327 posts) - - Show Bio

Bobby B and the Mannis? I cant hate on either of these two.

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#30 Posted by Richubs (7521 posts) - - Show Bio

I actually liked Stannis for a decent portion.

He was a pretty good leader and was a decent guy.

Till he burned his pure daughter. That was pathetic.

Stannis gets my vote.

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#31 Posted by BladeOfFury (3895 posts) - - Show Bio

@shroudofsorrow:

No, it applies regardless.

It doesn't. While it would be logical for Stannis to burn Shireen (assuming that the Lord of Light is legit), she is his only daughter. His cold, heartless reaction speaks a lot about him, regardless of how logical his actions were.

And yes, the technical terms are of relevance. Killing enemy soldiers who can defend themselves in a war is not the same as a genocide.

War is still horrible. The soldiers, who have wives and children, are still forced to fight and die for a cause they might not believe in. Robert did not want that to happen, especially considering that the opposing side was going to be the Dothraki army, an army known for burning villages to the ground, enslaving, and raping. One life was a very low price.

And yes, Daenerys was building an army, and she was also liberating slaves and putting a stop to slave traders at the same time. She couldn't have done that if she had been killed.

Robert was unaware of the good deeds Daenerys might have done in the future (Slaver's Bay). He was aware of the bad deeds she would have done in the future (starting a war). Even if he knew, Robert's priority would be to protect his people, not foreigners.

And again, Robert was fine with waging a war when it was his own anger driving it. So he has little grounds for getting offended by Daenerys wanting to take back what was her birthright from a man who murdered her brother out of spite. Her justifications are no worse than his own.

You keep implying that anger was the only driving force behind Robert's rebellion, but I see nothing to suggest that's the case. You are the one who is accusing Robert of being guilty, and he's innocent until proven guilty, so you have to prove him guilty. Prove that Robert's desire to make a better realm didn't accompany his desire for revenge. Prove it.

And not punishing Gregor for the act is itself a form of approval. And yes, he DID approve it. "I see no children here. Only dragonspawn." That's a horrible thing to say in the face of child murdering.

No, not punishing someone for murder is not nearly as bad as approving it. The murder already happened, Gregor being punished does not reverse it.

I don't recall Robert ever saying that. Episode number?

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#32 Posted by webinyoureye11 (5930 posts) - - Show Bio
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#33 Posted by dark_globe (734 posts) - - Show Bio

robert did not burn his only child at the stake because of some red b..ch prophesised something .
no contest .

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#34 Posted by GateOfBabylon (5318 posts) - - Show Bio

Stannis burnt his only child alive. There's no beating that.

And I actually liked Bobby B.

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#35 Posted by Tomkatie (3563 posts) - - Show Bio

Stannis burned his daughter alive