There is no new intent or old intent in a single piece of evidence, and it cannot retcon itself either. The intent didn't change within it, all you can say is that he was intended to get faster as time passed (is that what you mean?)
That is what I mean, but intent changes with time, and so an evidence that isn't really fixed at one point in time must change with time as well, and if that evidence is intent, then the intent changes accordingly.
@bladeoffury I know that's meme tier but the exponential energy increase flat out means he's at the upper echelons of sub relativistic speed, since he can't generate that sort of energy otherwise
400 m/s is a little over mach 1, how is it contradictory? It's hard to tell how much the arrow was moving since both QS and the camera were moving as well. Tony was still closing the distance to his target, he wasn't necessarily trying to go especially fast, and that's supported by Thor's ultron bot moving in that perspective.
Because he was moving below mach 1 in the Sokovia scene, and he was 400m/s at the day Hydra was testing him, his speed grows daily.
Since Iron Man who is arrow+ speed was statued we can say the arrow was statued as well.
I'm talking about his combat speed, we see that he is in the middle of punching Ultron but he is frozen.
The bot was moving only because of Thor, that is clear since the bot next to QS isn't moving near that speed and Ultron's main body is moving slower than the bot which doesn't make sense.
There is no new intent or old intent in a single piece of evidence, and it cannot retcon itself either. The intent didn't change within it, all you can say is that he was intended to get faster as time passed (is that what you mean?)
That is what I mean, but intent changes with time, and so an evidence that isn't really fixed at one point in time must change with time as well, and if that evidence is intent, then the intent changes accordingly.
But this piece of evidence is fixed at one point in time... it's a single statement about a character's improvement.
If he was as fast as that feat makes him out to be, he would have augmented his "operational speed," as you said, in reaction to the pain, and wouldn't be blinking and moving his hands in slow-mo after the fact.
Not really, what would be the point in doing that after he was already hit
To locate the threat and avoid getting shot again? Heck, if he was that fast, he could have even minimized damage after first feeling the bullet make contact with his arm. It doesn't make sense for him to hold back 99% of his speed in such a dangerous situation either.
400 m/s is a little over mach 1, how is it contradictory? It's hard to tell how much the arrow was moving since both QS and the camera were moving as well. Tony was still closing the distance to his target, he wasn't necessarily trying to go especially fast, and that's supported by Thor's ultron bot moving in that perspective.
Because he was moving below mach 1 in the Sokovia scene, and he was 400m/s at the day Hydra was testing him, his speed grows daily.
Since Iron Man who is arrow+ speed was statued we can say the arrow was statued as well.
I'm talking about his combat speed, we see that he is in the middle of punching Ultron but he is frozen.
The bot was moving only because of Thor, that is clear since the bot next to QS isn't moving near that speed and Ultron's main body is moving slower than the bot which doesn't make sense.
If by moving you mean running, he likely wasn't running as fast as he could to conserve energy. As for the instinctive hand movement, I don't see why it would put him at subsonic speeds. If there's a discrepancy it's not significant enough to treat it as counter-evidence.
So the arrow being evidence is reliant on Iron Man being evidence, but Iron Man is not evidence because he wasn't even in striking distance of Ultron. He's in the middle of covering their gap, not punching. Besides, this would still be one piece of evidence since it's the same scene. For example if Oliver took 20 hits from Supergirl in one fight, it's not 20 feats of him being that durable - it's one.
Even Ultron moving is probably contradictory, didn't Cap dance around this version of him? And what do you make of Cap taking Quicksilver's hits at that speed?
Pietro is definitely not faster than the speed of M134 bullets having muzzle velocity between Mach 2 to Mach 3. Also kids not being able to survive supersonic speed is not a valid argument for him not being able to move them away from the bullets before they hit him. This is a comic book movie. People survive all sorts of things. If you take real science into consideration, not even grown men can survive instantaneous Mach3+ acceleration.
The bullet Pietro seemed to statue in AoU was fired from a Beretta Cheetah, which has a muzzle velocity of 370 m/sec. Plus the bullet got slowed down a bit after it passed through reinforced glass. So Pietro doesn't have to be beyond 400m/sec to statue that bullet.
Also Thor was definitely statued by Pietro. His reactions are better than Cap and Tony though. That's it
Your kid logic isn't valid. You're just reaching at this point so I am not going to entertain that
Quicksilver is definitely not faster than Minigun bullets in travel speed simply because he couldn't statue them and got shredded. That puts him below Mach 3.
Perceiving bullets is not equal to travelling faster than bullets. His perception maybe twice or thrice as fast as the Berretta Cheetah fired bullets which will still cap his perception speed below Mach 3. But his travel speed is definitely much below Mach 3 as he got shredded by Mach 2.5 bullets. And he didn't just get hit by one bullet, he was shredded. That means he is slower than the time difference it took for multiple bullets to reach his body at the same spot. Compare that to Diana who can travel faster than Mach 3 bullets, react to each round that leaves the barrel at a fire rate of more than 10 rounds per second, track those rounds at slow mo and block each one of them individually. That is true Mach 3+ travel speed and hypersonic perception speed. Pietro isn't even close.
In case of Thor, like I said, he may have handled Pietro better than Cap and Tony, he may have had limited perception of him but he was still effectively statued. That doesn't change anything, just makes his perceptions faster than Cap tier guys who can aim dodge bullets
People can't stick to stuff from over half a decade ago if they're clearly making QS faster than he was before. Apparently intercepting bullets is a cap and not an anti-feat, but you'll see Flash/Superman moving slower than bullets with Diana getting statued by em when Snyder was making statueforce, and you'll also see Flash and Superman speeding through the town at below Mach 1 but it doesn't count cuz reasons
@eredin12: the MCU guidebook confirmed this who am I to debate against that. This has nothing to do with DCEU.
The mcu guidebook says moon level ronan too gg
Mach 1 Quicksilver would statue him
QS isn't mach 1 tho, that's clearly been retconned
Also, mach 1 is 343 meters per second, not 400 meters per second to, some are not really familiar with those numbers, and i would not really call it retconned just as the quote says he was taht fast then, but he grows faster each day, in the movie he got lot faster since his time in Hydra prison when this was written
Well...all the stuff in the statement happened while he was in the HYDRA prison
@rajjarsalt:Yeah as they say he is currently when that was written that fast but each day he gets closer to light speed, so by time of his fight in Avengers he got lot faster than he was there
Well it says that he was clocked at that speed. It doesn't give that a time but it does say he gets faster day by day, so the quote is a summary of QS's track record over multiple days at the very least
@rajjarsalt: Yeah, but as said he gets faster each day, he was probably lot slower some days ago, so as time passed between this and his fight he got lot faster during his fight with Avengers, hence why that feat with bullet happened
Well it says he's going closer to the speed of light every day, implying he's going faster and faster.
Moreover he cannot generate exponential mass-energy without going sub rel so there's that too
People can't stick to stuff from over half a decade ago if they're clearly making QS faster than he was before. Apparently intercepting bullets is a cap and not an anti-feat, but you'll see Flash/Superman moving slower than bullets with Diana getting statued by em when Snyder was making statueforce, and you'll also see Flash and Superman speeding through the town at below Mach 1 but it doesn't count cuz reasons
We've already seen Superman fight at mach speed. MCU's speedster, is mach 1 confirmed by the holy MCU guidebook and he statued the big three.
Yeah, those punches were revealed to be minimally above Mach 1 so not really as fast as the bullets being discussed.
I've never seen that statement (seems legit ngl) but it's clear that MCU statements can be retconned and it's happened before, so, there's that. He didn't really statue Thor since Thor was able to catch up to him and then toss Mjolnir at him.
Do you think MoS Superman is faster than JL Superman?
@eri_joni: He could have definitely gotten faster so speed of sound is the lower bound, but there's no light speed argument here.
He should be much faster that sound, I noticed a few days ago that the bullet Clint shot had a mach cone trail.
That feat doesn't seem to be consistent, someone "as fast or almost as fast as a bullet" won't perceive bullets in such extreme slow motion. This wouldn't happen either:
If by moving you mean running, he likely wasn't running as fast as he could to conserve energy. As for the instinctive hand movement, I don't see why it would put him at subsonic speeds. If there's a discrepancy it's not significant enough to treat it as counter-evidence.
But being below mach 1 doesn't put you immediately at subsonic, 0.9-1.1 is transonic. I did some research, and the speed of the bullet he was shot is around 350m/s to 407m/s. So he was definitely going slower than 400m/s. And don't forget that Quicksilver was 400m/s at the Hydra Base, he becomes faster as stated otherwise he wouldn't see a supersonic bullet moving very slow. Plus a human was moving in that scene. Is that human as fast as Ultron or faster than IM flight?
So the arrow being evidence is reliant on Iron Man being evidence, but Iron Man is not evidence because he wasn't even in striking distance of Ultron. He's in the middle of covering their gap, not punching. Besides, this would still be one piece of evidence since it's the same scene. For example if Oliver took 20 hits from Supergirl in one fight, it's not 20 feats of him being that durable - it's one.
Well, if he wasn't in the middle of punching his flight speed is still equal to a 300fps arrow in one of his older suits. It wouldn't be one piece of evidence if he was statuing his combat speed since we know that he is above arrow speed. So Quicksilver would statue an arrow and someone who fights faster than said arrow.
Even Ultron moving is probably contradictory, didn't Cap dance around this version of him? And what do you make of Cap taking Quicksilver's hits at that speed?
Ultron was keeping up with Iron Man who is faster than arrows so seeing him in extreme slow motion should be enough proof that the arrow was statued. I wouldn't say Cap was dancing around him, I rewatched the fight scene and Ultron was wrecking for the most part.
If Quicksilver was hitting at his hardest it would be an outlier for Cap, but he didn't want to kill the Avengers so he was holding back his punches. Speaking of Cap, the guy reacted to a 230-240m/s( mach 0.7) grenade launcher and he couldn't perceive Quicksilver
But being below mach 1 doesn't put you immediately at subsonic, 0.9-1.1 is transonic. I did some research, and the speed of the bullet he was shot is around 350m/s to 407m/s. So he was definitely going slower than 400m/s. And don't forget that Quicksilver was 400m/s at the Hydra Base, he becomes faster as stated otherwise he wouldn't see a supersonic bullet moving very slow. Plus a human was moving in that scene. Is that human as fast as Ultron or faster than IM flight?
If we're being real, the directors didn't find the exact model of that gun, its muzzle velocity, and adjust QS' speed to fall perfectly in line with it. That's clearly too specific, and the average bullet is much faster. And again, he didn't have to be running at top speed so even if they did research the gun, I don't see how that puts him below 400 m/s by any significant amount. He gets faster than 400 m/s, but we don't know by how much, and a slight improvement should be assumed to maintain consistency with the feat. What's your point with the man in the background moving? It's obviously an error since humans can't move in a perspective from which bullets are in slow motion.
Well, if he wasn't in the middle of punching his flight speed is still equal to a 300fps arrow in one of his older suits.
This assumes that he had enough space to accelerate to such speeds, and that he chose to cover the distance so quickly in the first place. He often chooses not to.
It wouldn't be one piece of evidence if he was statuing his combat speed since we know that he is above arrow speed. So Quicksilver would statue an arrow and someone who fights faster than said arrow.
It counts as one because it's the same scene. What you're saying is that there are multiple indicators of that showing being supersonic, but it's still one showing. Unless you think that taking 20 hits in a single fight should be treated as 20 different feats.
I wouldn't say Cap was dancing around him, I rewatched the fight scene and Ultron was wrecking for the most part.
Cap tagged him with shield throws, threw him around, and got him into submission holds despite massively inferior physicals. This isn't someone who can move while a Mach 100 character is in slow motion.
If Quicksilver was hitting at his hardest it would be an outlier for Cap, but he didn't want to kill the Avengers so he was holding back his punches.
But if he was travelling fast enough to statue an arrow, Cap would have been destroyed. We know that QS hit him faster than he ran.
Speaking of Cap, the guy reacted to a 230-240m/s( mach 0.7) grenade launcher and he couldn't perceive Quicksilver
QS is much faster than Mach 0.7, it makes sense for Cap not to react.
He's obviously slower than the Mach 3 bullets that killed him so between Mach 1 and 2 seems fair. And 400 m/sec is just over Mach 1. I think that's reasonable
I don't think that's necessarily true. He was clearly slower in the final battle, getting outsped by a bullet and not statuing SW, and he's even shown to be tiring.
He's obviously slower than the Mach 3 bullets that killed him so between Mach 1 and 2 seems fair. And 400 m/sec is just over Mach 1. I think that's reasonable
I don't think that's necessarily true. He was clearly slower in the final battle, getting outsped by a bullet and not statuing SW, and he's even shown to be tiring.
Lmao you're right he was even getting tagged by Hawkeye
Are Wonder Woman and Aquaman fodder since they couldn't put down someone who was clowned multiple times by groups of Parademons, and even a group of Amazons?
If we're being real, the directors didn't find the exact model of that gun, its muzzle velocity, and adjust QS' speed to fall perfectly in line with it. That's clearly too specific, and the average bullet is much faster. And again, he didn't have to be running at top speed so even if they did research the gun, I don't see how that puts him below 400 m/s by any significant amount. He gets faster than 400 m/s, but we don't know by how much, and a slight improvement should be assumed to maintain consistency with the feat. What's your point with the man in the background moving? It's obviously an error since humans can't move in a perspective from which bullets are in slow motion.
I'm getting a bit confused now, you agree that he wasn't running at full speed, so what are we even debating anymore? We know that the bullet Clint shot is supersonic, and I looked at the types of the bullet the gun shoots and only one of them has speed that is >sound and it's exactly 559m/s which is greater that Quicksilver speed in the Hydra base.
So Avengers Quicksilver>>>559m/s bullet>Hydra Quicksilver.
We shouldn't assume a slight improvement, it goes against intent.. And maintain what consistency? You agreed that he wasn't at top speed in Sokovia and you seem to have abandoned "as fast or almost as fast as a bullet".
This assumes that he had enough space to accelerate to such speeds, and that he chose to cover the distance so quickly in the first place. He often chooses not to.
You showed of gif where a bunch of heroes are fighting with no kill intent. I don't see why Iron Man would be flying at top speed here.
Cap tagged him with shield throws, threw him around, and got him into submission holds despite massively inferior physicals. This isn't someone who can move while a Mach 100 character is in slow motion.
That means the shield was thrown faster than Ultron can react. I know Cap was getting landing some hits on him, but that can be attributed to skill or PIS which happens a lot around Cap.
But if he was travelling fast enough to statue an arrow, Cap would have been destroyed. We know that QS hit him faster than he ran.
So it's an outlier then.
QS is much faster than Mach 0.7, it makes sense for Cap not to react.
I'm getting a bit confused now, you agree that he wasn't running at full speed, so what are we even debating anymore?
It's not about him running slower than the bullet, it's about how slowly he reacts after getting shot. His hand instinctively moved towards the pain, for example, and it was in slow motion, which obviously wouldn't be the case if he was a hundred times faster than the bullet.
We know that the bullet Clint shot is supersonic, and I looked at the types of the bullet the gun shoots and only one of them has speed that is >sound and it's exactly 559m/s which is greater that Quicksilver speed in the Hydra base.
So Avengers Quicksilver>>>559m/s bullet>Hydra Quicksilver.
I think there's a misunderstanding. What I said was that it's highly unlikely for the directors to research the muzzle velocity of that cop's gun model.
We shouldn't assume a slight improvement, it goes against intent.. And maintain what consistency? You agreed that he wasn't at top speed in Sokovia and you seem to have abandoned "as fast or almost as fast as a bullet".
Why is a slight improvement against intent?
Maintain consistency with the Sokovia feat. As I said, it's about his reaction to the pain, not how fast he runs. Abandoned? You already accepted that statement as evidence, now we're trying to see which side has more of it.
You showed of gif where a bunch of heroes are fighting with no kill intent. I don't see why Iron Man would be flying at top speed here.
He can fly faster to cover the distance and pull his punches when he gets there. Yet he chose not to. And what do you think of this, where he goes up against Thanos? This, against a physically superior opponent? Him needing more space to accelerate?
He was statued, a great feat for QS.
Seems to be the natural pose his made after throwing the shield. Thor is roughly as fast as Cap yet he was moving a lot, because he was actually trying to move at that point in time.
That means the shield was thrown faster than Ultron can react. I know Cap was getting landing some hits on him, but that can be attributed to skill or PIS which happens a lot around Cap.
So it's an outlier then.
For that scene alone, we have Ultron (who struggled against Cap speed-wise) moving in Quicksilver's perspective, and Cap taking Quicksilver's hits at that speed, vs arrow-speed Iron Man being statued, which is both outnumbered and invalid, since he did not have the reason or ability to go that fast. It is also contradicted by the Sokovia feat and Whedon's own statement, which outnumber the Mach 100 feat. So shouldn't we call the lesser amount of evidence PIS/outliers, instead of the greater amount?
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