Fighting Ability: Captain America

Hopefully I'll be making more of these when I have the time to, but for now lets just get on with the topic.

Captain America Being Such A Skilled Fighter is PIS.

Don't get me wrong, the Captain is one of the best but how he can even be considered to be above the likes of Black Panther, Black Widow, Iron Fist, Shancg-Chi, Daredevil etc baffles me. According to the Wiki (which was partly written by me) Captain America is: an expert in hand-to-hand combat being very skilled in multiple martial arts through his training in military combatives and instruction under various private instructors (he may have learned most of his initial knowledge from WW2 trainers such William Fairbairn and Rex Applegate who pioneered most the methods utilized in that period).^[133][134] Rogers utilizes Boxing, Judo, Defendu, Kickboxing, Jujutsu, Okinawa-te and various other disciplines with his gymnastics ability creating a style that suits his strengths and enables him to use his knowledge to the best of his ability. He is considered one of the finest martial artists on Earth.

That's fine with the exception of the last bit.

Lets break it down: there is no way Cap is that skilled with the training he's had. Taskmaster claims that Cap was at his best during the war, and given Taskmasters ability and the fact that he's fought the Captain numerous times he is in a good position to say this.

So that mean that Cap was just as skilled as he was in the past as he is now, this rules out any of that "extra S.HE.I.L.D. training" bullsh*t.

The only martial arts that Steve would have been capable of learning would have been; Boxing, Savate, Muay Thai, Judo, Karate, Jujutsu, Defendu and Sambo. All other martial arts were either in the midst of being created, hadn't been created or there would have been no way for Cap to learn them. Defendu was created by a Brit (like myself) called William Fairbairn and was taught to the Army during the war, Savate had started to emerge during the 1800's *(Casseux, the founder, opened the first establishment in 1825 for practicing and promoting a regulated version of chausson and savate (disallowing head butting, eye gouging, grappling, etc. and Savate was developed professionally by Charles Lecour's (the second "founder") student Joseph Charlemont and then his son Charles Charlemont. Charles continued his father's work and in 1899 fought an English boxer named Jerry Driscoll.) Judo was even taught to the US President and Jujutsu has been in the western world since the 1800's, Karate began in Canada in the 1930s and 1940s as Japanese people immigrated to the country and Sambo demonstration happened in 1938. Since the War also happened in the Pacific Theatre and in Indo-China its is still possible for the Captain to learned Muay Thai from the natives (as long as he was nice to them). Cap probably learned all of this in 18 months and spent another 4 months learning Muay Thai, almost all of these martial arts will have crossover within their techniques and since this is comics and Cap's super soldier serum could have advanced his coordination abilities this is still possible. So while he still was in action before then, from 1943-1945 Cap was nigh unstoppable as almost all people didn't have access to the martial arts. However when you compare this training to what Black Panther, Daredevil, Black Widow, Iron Fist, Wolverine, Elektra and others have went through with (debatably) better martial arts, better trainers and longer, more comprehensive training. He cannot be better than 6th-7th dan in his martial arts, and while impressive its nowhere near the grandmaster skills that other in Marvel and DC have. Now I'm not a fanboy. I'm just stating the obvious, Cap is basically as good as Deadpool would be without his HF. He's got the feats but on paper he shouldn't be beating guys like Wolverine, Daredevil and Black Panther.

But what do you guys think?

Bump.

I've always thought cap isn't even top 10 in marvel

How would taskmaster know Cap was best during the war? He wasnt around then. Also, there is no logical reason why he would be better back then because since then he has had more experience in fights and there is no reason why he wouldnt have been train more by shield or have trained by himself since then.

Another thing, lets say for example Cap does only know those nartial arts. So? Knowing more doesnt make you better, not at all.

Agree.

No

When Captain America throws his mighty shield..

This is one of those lame character bashing threads, right?

Nope. I'm 100% certain that Cap is highly skilled but realistically (and I know what you're gonna say to this) he cannot be as good as Daredevil, Elektra, Wolverine ect.

@young_murloc said:

Maybe because he's seen footage of the war...because his ability to adapt and copy martial arts puts him in a good place to analyse other peoples skill...or even because he himself has copied Captain America's fighting ability.

And there is a logical explanation to this; you cannot compare the experience you gain from fighting on the Front Line with trained soldiers with heavy artillery every day to fighting weak-ass monsters and poorly trained super-villains that probably pop up every week or so. And it does make sense, as a superhero Cap not only has to pay close attention to his fellow teammates, but also the the civilians that could be harmed. Half of the combatants in war were his enemies and the other half that were his friends knew the risks and willing signed up knowing they could die. They did this because they loved their country. Cap is aware of this and as a result would have paid less attention, that's not to say that he tried to limit the causalities on both sides, but he also understand that he's fighting in a war and soldiers will die no matter how hard he tries.

As for knowing more I understand that it doesn't necessarily make you a better combatant, America was in the war for only 4 years and there is no way that he was as skilled as he was in 1944 as opposed to 1941. My problem is the time-width which would limit the amount of training he would have and the fact that others have had longer, more COMPREHENSIVE training and he's not only bested them but is frequently claimed to be as good or even better at fighting as them.

@thanosomega: See, your argument falls apart the moment you try to use the word 'realistically'. Writers arent martial artists and thus you cant expect them to get every detail right to the nearest decimal.

Marvel wants to tell me that Captain America is one of their finest fighters and he has the feats to prove it, I will take their word for it.

And just fyi, being a great fighter does not completely depend on how many fighting styles you know. Its how you use and apply what you know. That, combined with his stats, is how he does the things he does. There is nothing PIS about it

In their recent fights between taskmaster and Captain America, not counting when bucky and Cap fought taskmaster because taskmaster lost that fight even though people think he did well the guy got knee in the stomach and lots of blood came out of his mouth. Steve had time to talk to Bucky a bit before leaving.

Taskmaster tried to kill Nick Fury Jr, and even though he tried to bomb and kill bystander, Cap fought him off. It ended in a draw.

Recently Cap kicked the crap out of taskmaster.

So I don't know why Taskmaster has so much of a say over Captain America.

The majority of the time Captain America fights with high morals attempting to not want to harm people. He's fighting more handicapped when he fights villains who are fighting to actually kill him or near mortally wounding him.

And that last sentence taskmaster says there changes things, we don't know what he means there. That was during a time Captain America had to actually kill people if necessary because it was during the war after all. That could have put him "more on the edge."

@slimj87d: Have Cap and Tasky had any recent fight other than the one where he wails on a terrified Tony by repeatedly punching his face?

I don't expect them to. But in comic books there has always been an "attempt" to make thing realistic, that's why we have terms such as PIS, WIS, Leob Force ect. And FFS I never said that it depends on HOW MANY MARTIAL ARTS YOU KNOW. But the type of martial art and how long you've trained in it. Ask any martial artist who would in a fight a 6th dan or a 10th dan and you'll get the answer. Plus some martial arts teach joint lock techniques and in fiction "pressure point techniques and death touches", I fail to see how the Cap could defend against that especially when those that know such techniques are just as good acrobats as him.

@thanosomega: I am not sure why you are doing so much mental gymnastics over this but you seem confused as to what PIS means.

For instance, Cap dodging bullets, jumping off airplanes without parachutes or going toe to toe with other top tier martial atists isnt PIS because he does it consistently, which means he is just that good.

But Cap matching strength with Namor, beating up Hulk or shield smacking cosmic entities is PIS because he is nowhere consistently that powerful to do that.

And again, you are completely missing the point here. Saying he cannot do this or that because it wouldn't be make sense as far as real life fighting goes is like saying Superman or Hulk shouldnt exist because it is scientifically unfeasible. It is comics for chrissake.

And realistic does not mean they follow the same limitations and rules as our world. I mean Nolan's Batman is supposedly realistic, but yet performs feats that is legit superhuman according to our standards. Punisher MAX is supposed to be on the realistic side, yet he does stuff like take a shot gun blast point blank to the chest, lose an entire rib and still continue fighting and performing parkour. You get my drift.

As to how Cap can fight peope who know death touches and so forth,he does have superhuman stats and is a brilliantly tactical fighter. His enhanced brain also allows him to learn stuff much faster than a normal human, so take from that what you will

@brucerogers: just when taskmaster was hired to kill Nick Fury Jr and the recent one where he stabbed Sharon's hand and pissed Steve off. Steve then beat him silly.

At the end of the day it doesn't matter so much what we think or think is "realistic" or feesable etc because what actually happens is the "facts" in their world. Cap has been shown for years to be one of the best therefore he is one of the best despite what someone thinks is possible or if he "should". You have to accept it and that's not a bad thing.

Just like we have to accept that super strong characters can hold up or lift things that no matter how strong they are physics wouldn't let you or the beatings characters take and don't die or have brain damage etc. It's comic book physics and reasoning.

Cap can hang with these top tier martial artists not just from skill and experience but also from tactial ability and physical stats, which at times can make someone seem to have more martial arts skils then they really do.

@thanosomega: What do I think? I think someone's salty.

Captain America being one of the best fighters in the world is not PIS. It makes sense, he's the peak of human potential, why should he be anything less than the best, if not one of?

This is all bs. Cap is one of the top 5 martial artists in Marvel.

Someone is salty ...

Steve is just that good.

There is a common misconception amongst comic fans who don't actually train in martial arts that training in a certain style or training for a longer period of time instantly makes you a better fighter. Chuck Liddell is easily one of the greatest mixed martial artists of all time with a basis in jujitsu, kenpo, and freestyle wrestling. He has significant less advantages on paper over life long martial artists like Vitor Belfort, Wanderlai Silva, and Alistair Overeem, all of whom he has beaten. The same could be said for Chris Weidman, who did not start legitimate MMA training until college but managed to take down absolute martial arts monsters like Anderson Silva (Muay Thai, jujitsu, Kali, Capoeira, Taekwondo, Chute Wrestling) and Lyoto Machida (son of legendary Shotokan Karate master Yoshizo Machida) with a focus on the two most basic styles: boxing and wrestling. Men fight, not styles.

Sigh...I'm not salty. If you actually read the post and my subsequent comment you would know that.

You've got me there...I'll drop it.

1. The most effective styles already existed. Almost every mma fighter knows boxing, wrestling, and either judo, jiujitsu, or both. Given the time period Steve has every opportunity to learn them and years to combat test what he knows. Note that out of the 8 most current ufc champions in every weight class 5 of their backgrounds are primarily in freestyle and folkstyle wrestling. Most of them are learning 10 martial arts they’re just learning enough to fill in the inherant holes of their wrestling. One fighting style is all you need, you just need to learn how to use it against all the others. Steve at the very least had formal training in judo, boxing, and wrestling but he does have non formal training by regularly fighting everyone in his rouges gallery, and we know that captain America can teach himself a fighting style in the heat of combat similar to taskmaster

2. He’s mentally greater than the other people you listed. No he’s not a scientist like black panther but that’s by choice. His mental capacity was enhanced just like his body to be able to utilize his knowledge to the greatest of its ability. Therefore every technique he knows, he can apply it whenever it’s reevant greater than any normal human. See Captain America theater of war

3. He’s stated he’s mastered all forms of combat. I don’t think this means every martial art but I do think it means every martial arts technique he’s capable of performing with his physiology. That means he knows every way to punch, kick, take you down, slam you, strangle you, etc. from all ranges. Being a master in every KIND of fighting can be done by even real life humans, like Demetrius Johnson. So therefor I think it’s possible for cap to not know a comically large amount of martial arts styles but still know every technique.

4. Knowing martial arts isn’t the point it’s fight IQ. The ability to use what you do know and the ability to use your athletics as wisely as you should be. Look up the UFC fighter Ben Askren. He sucks at everything besides wrestling and jiujitsu. Can’t kick, can punch. Nothing. But he can take anyone down and even if he starts off losing he can gain control of the fight. He knows how to set up the takedown too. There’s some people who can only wrestle who will never be as good as him because Ben is a genius at forcing his style to work. Steve, being enhanced, is better than every non-superhuman at doing this. And logically should be a better fighter than every marvel fighter that doesn’t have any superhuman mental abilities or skills in outside abilities that Steve doesn’t have

5. Taskmaster really doesn’t know what he’s talking about. Or rather I think he does but he just likes talking sh*t. Steve May have reached his peak in the war but it makes no sense. Steve spent years out of ice, an additional 12 in dimension z, and who knows how long trapped in a time loop living in alternate realities fighting the same fights with the knowledge he’s gained. He could have the fighting knowledge of a 10000 year old by now for all we know. Taskmaster doesn’t. He just likes being arrogant and talking sh*t.

One thing I wanna note is in a recent comic Steve beat taskmaster himself using his fighting IQ, not his martial arts knowledge, and this is why he’s so skilled. He adapted better than the taskmaster himself, and this was after being blinded and poisoned too. I can show scans upon request.

Ultimately I do think cap is the best fighter in marvel that I’d consider natural but there are people with unnatural abilities I’d put next to him or even higher.

Some people with precog like gorgon or something have supernatural fight IQ and would destroy him. Some people like daredevil has skills like a radar sense that factor into their fighting skills which puts him close to caps level but not quite there. Some people like wolverine have skills that match their body type that simply aren’t compatible with Steve’s (such as knowing when to take getting stabbed in order to win a fight or something), so it’s not even possible to compare them

Steve’s definitely top 10 but the only people beyond him or up there with him are superhuman. Because Steve himself superpower isn’t just his muscles and speed, but he literally was augmented to know how to apply his fighting knowledge better than any other man

This

Bump

I wanna see how many people underestimate Cap.

Cap was much less skilled in WW2. He was so unskilled he lost to Hand Ninjas.

Also Taskmaster said he had "more of an edge" which usually means more aggressive, which he was around this time. Cap is much too consistently portrayed as a top tier fighter for it to be PIS.