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#1 Edited by SaintWildcard (21783 posts) - - Show Bio

Elseworld In Name Only

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So when we first heard about this event and the title I think any reasonable comic book fan thought that the change was going to be that we were going to see Oliver become Flash and Barry become Green Arrow, because that's kinda the point of an Elseworld. An Elseworld by definition is drastically different origins to heroes we know, generally with a "what if?" bend. If you thought that... well you're stupid. What we got instead was just some weird Freaky Friday/Quantum Leap episode (a joke they make a lot throughout the first part).

Now, expectations of a different story isn't a good reason to harp on it but it is something i think I should bring up since it fails to live up to the moniker. As for why I think it fails on a more objective level is because compared to last years event, this felt like a giant goof episode as opposed to an event episode. It somehow has more comedy in it, even though the Legends aren't in this event. They never took this event seriously.

90's Flash: So Fast You Can Barely See Him

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If any of you thought that we'd get some sweet 90's Flash action or that he'd play a big role in this event, well the jokes on you again fools! It's not even just him, but Batwoman served little to no point in this event outside of just promoting her own show. Flash got it the worst out of the three, he was just there to be an exposition dump and then swiftly get removed off the table. What a waste. He didn't have to be the hero, but he should have at least gone out cooler.

Superman got the most screen time, appearing both in part 1 and 3. But I think Supergirl writers should just come out and say that they hate Superman. The only purpose he serves is to get his ass kicked by Supergirl so she can state she's better than him. In the finale he even gets his ass saved by Lois (which by the way, this Lois sucked harder than the vacuum created by my lack of a love life). But it shouldn't be shocking, I hate most Supergirl characters.

Big Villain-Small Impact

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At this point I'm still not sure what to make of the villain this event. I feel like the constraints of a tv show don't allow for a villain like this to work. He just hands this book to this guy to mess with reality, but not only does he screw up he doesn't even try to fix his mistake. No one was stopping him, and he could have just tried again, why didn't he? I thought maybe there would be some grand reason for the set up of the Oliver/Barry switch to be a thing, but it didn't serve a purpose other than the fact that the guy screwed up. He lacked any proper motivation, especially when compared to other event villains. Heck, I'd go as far as to say he's worse than Vandal Savage. The Domintors even for a generic looking alien invasion, had good reason for being here and the Nazi Justice League did as well. Here, it's just some guy who got fired from his job screwing with heroes. Kind of a step down if you ask me. It may have worked if he had any charisma, but he was just a weirdo.

Coming Soon On CW: Batwoman and Superman

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When this event was announced, they made a big deal about how Batwoman was going to be introduced, and she was... just not in a way that was beneficial to the story. The entire episode was nothing more than a back door pilot, smack dab in the middle of a cosmic event. Needless to say it's a jarring introduction to say the least. It's not like CW hasn't done a backdoor pilot before, but this has to be the most hamfisted and out of place one yet. The Legends of Tomorrow one was way better, and the Barry Allen one remains to be the best example of a backdoor pilot yet. This episode was also bogged down by its incessant need to cram in as many Easter eggs and references as possible. Heck, 90's Flash wasn't just an exposition dump, he also stopped mid sentence to make an other reference to the fan theory that Diggle was John Stewart by hinting that his Diggle on his planet is a Green Lantern.

What makes this event worse, is that not only did we get a comedy episode and a backdoor pilot... but we got a second backdoor pilot! Can you believe this shit? Superman and Lois are only here to build up buzz for the rumored SUperman show that was in the works. We've already had a Superman and Lois show, but I guess the new angle they'll take is introducing Jon.

This is where the biggest problem really stems from. The lackluster first episode and two back door pilots that they had to figure out a way to make work. The other two events had one more episode to deal with and more characters, but it felt like a tighter and more well crafted 4 episodes. Here what we have is a Frankenstein of an event.

Overall Thoughts

This event was a discombobulated mess that was more interested in fan service and set up than it was at telling a good story. The only good things were the occasional meta jokes, but even then they wore their welcome after a while. I came out being completely disinterested in Crisis On Infinite Earths and I declare this as the worst event so far, anyone who thinks otherwise... well you're wrong and that's your cross to bare.

Rating- 3/10

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#2 Posted by the_stegman (40186 posts) - - Show Bio

And yet, I enjoyed it greatly

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#3 Posted by SaintWildcard (21783 posts) - - Show Bio

And yet, I enjoyed it greatly

I'm not mad, I'm just disappointed

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#4 Posted by the_stegman (40186 posts) - - Show Bio

@saintwildcard: I come into these crossovers expecting fan service. Plot is secondary.

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#5 Posted by mrmonster (15105 posts) - - Show Bio

Overall, I found this crossover very enjoyable, but I think it made two huge sins.

  1. Batwoman and 90s Flash were terribly underused. Batwoman was only there to one-shot Barry and Oliver, and 90's Flash was there for...nothing really.
  2. The ending just kind of fell flat for me. The Monitor's great test was...well, we're still not sure exactly. Was it for them to show they could overcome who their nature, or was it if they could stand up to him? Either way, I'm not sure how this prepares them to battle the Anti-Monitor.

But still, there was enough pure enjoyment in this crossover to make it worth the watch.

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#6 Posted by deltahuman (4969 posts) - - Show Bio

Extremely well written review.

I agree with everything but like the other guy said, the showrunners don't give two shits about plot or logic.

These crossover events are just plain fan service, meant to increase viewership or something. I'd just suggest not taking these events very seriously and just enjoy the fan service, enjoy the Marvelesque Justice League

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#7 Posted by Ready_4_Madness (15799 posts) - - Show Bio

Extremely disappointed, they said, they removed Legends of Tomorrow because it made the crossovers feel overstuffed yet this felt like the most rushed crossover.

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#8 Edited by deactivated-5c12422f9a96c (33 posts) - - Show Bio

Hey, atleast it was funny!

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#9 Posted by Eobard21 (5281 posts) - - Show Bio

I loved this one but i can understand why you didn't

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#10 Posted by kiba (3722 posts) - - Show Bio

@mrmonster: I think you nailed it. 90 Flash and Batwoman needed to be more important to the story. Kate could have stolen the book from Degaan while investigating him and suddenly found herself in over her head not knowing what to do with it or who to trust and some of the changes to realality could of been her clumsy attempts to fix Degaans changes while 90Flash should have been the one who helped Bary and Oliver to figure out the "test," whatever that was. He probably could have taken Karas place in the event and it would have been better.

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#11 Posted by Tomkatie (3318 posts) - - Show Bio

I haven’t seen the last episode so preferably no spoilers, but is 90’s Flash in episode 3 at all? Or is he literally only there for a minute and then gets poofed away

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#12 Posted by kiba (3722 posts) - - Show Bio
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#13 Posted by mrmonster (15105 posts) - - Show Bio

@kiba said:

@mrmonster: I think you nailed it. 90 Flash and Batwoman needed to be more important to the story. Kate could have stolen the book from Degaan while investigating him and suddenly found herself in over her head not knowing what to do with it or who to trust and some of the changes to realality could of been her clumsy attempts to fix Degaans changes while 90Flash should have been the one who helped Bary and Oliver to figure out the "test," whatever that was. He probably could have taken Karas place in the event and it would have been better.

Yeah, those would've been better plotlines then what actually happened. At least know that this isn't the end of CW Batwoman, I just hope this isn't the end of 90s Flash either.

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#14 Posted by kiba (3722 posts) - - Show Bio
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#15 Posted by Tomkatie (3318 posts) - - Show Bio

@kiba said:

@tomkatie: no he's not in it

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What a wasted opportunity that all was. I feel teased

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#16 Posted by MarvelandDCfan24 (7309 posts) - - Show Bio

I thought it was pretty good besides the dumb ending about stopping time and the whole mach 7 thing very dumb writing even for a comic book show it made absolutely zero sense especially accounting for Barrys flashtime nuke episode where time was pretty much stopped... the episode would've been much better it ended on Oliver shooting Deegan when he was about to kill flash and reality returning to normal after his death and maybe the monotor guy actually explaining what the whole point of this exercise was it seemed pointless like why Deegan or why even do this...

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#17 Edited by Magian (151445 posts) - - Show Bio

It was surprisingly decent. I agree that were a few things that could have been better but overall it was fun. And I enjoyed the character interactions, definitely the best thing about it. I thought Lois was ok, surprised they went with this direction when it comes to her and Clark.

Not sold on Batwoman. They could have incorporated her more into the plot, seriously this crossover wouldn't have been that different if she wasn't there. And the actress was a bit too stiff.

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#18 Posted by kiba (3722 posts) - - Show Bio

@tomkatie: agreed but I'm hopeful he'll return

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#19 Posted by SaintWildcard (21783 posts) - - Show Bio

Extremely well written review.

I agree with everything but like the other guy said, the showrunners don't give two shits about plot or logic.

These crossover events are just plain fan service, meant to increase viewership or something. I'd just suggest not taking these events very seriously and just enjoy the fan service, enjoy the Marvelesque Justice League

@saintwildcard: I come into these crossovers expecting fan service. Plot is secondary.

And yet, that's not how I feel the previous events were handled. Crisis didn't have this level of heavy handed fan service. Or like I said in the review, the story in the previous events were focused, here they had to do 2 backdoor pilots and set up next years event, which the previous ones didnt. This event was basically Avengers: AoU in show form

@estom said:

Hey, atleast it was funny!

Eh, barely. I laughed more at last years event, cus it had Mick

Extremely disappointed, they said, they removed Legends of Tomorrow because it made the crossovers feel overstuffed yet this felt like the most rushed crossover.

At least they didn't have to suffer through this slog of an event

@kiba said:

@mrmonster: I think you nailed it. 90 Flash and Batwoman needed to be more important to the story. Kate could have stolen the book from Degaan while investigating him and suddenly found herself in over her head not knowing what to do with it or who to trust and some of the changes to realality could of been her clumsy attempts to fix Degaans changes while 90Flash should have been the one who helped Bary and Oliver to figure out the "test," whatever that was. He probably could have taken Karas place in the event and it would have been better.

Throw in actually getting a legit Barry as Green Arrow origin and a Oliver as Flash origin, and this would have been much better than what we got.

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#20 Posted by Alavanka (2580 posts) - - Show Bio

Oh how I miss Arrow S1.

Elseworlds is meme-worthy tbh.

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#21 Posted by MrClarky1 (209 posts) - - Show Bio

I thoroughly enjoyed it. Having said that of course it has areas too improve but hindsight is 20/20 I'm extremely happy with what we got. My biggest issues were Lois Lanes character was absolutely unbearable, the whole 21c to the dollar or the Harvard study demonstrating women responding better to pressure situation give me a break, just stop. I have no problem with strong female characters, just have them be strong characters like Caitlin, she's one of my favourite characters because she's been developed well and had strong characters arcs and I just love her personality. She's not shoehorned in to virtue signal and push some political agenda that's was absolutely ridiculous.

The other issue was the CGI used in the Supes vs Deegan Supes flying fight, I think that definitely confirms that the budgets for these shows really don't lend themselves to creating great or even good flight battles like movie budgets do.v

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#22 Posted by Hypnos0929 (6545 posts) - - Show Bio

I do agree it wasn't as good as other crossover events but I wouldn't say it's 3/10. Definitely a solid 5/10.

Monitor wasn't even a good villain, he was a literal plot device incarnated.

90s Flash should've been used more.

Ruby Rose Batwoman was a nice addition but I want more of her or none of her.

Also why doesn't Oliver believe in Batman exactly? That whole thing had me rolling because even Supergirl is like "Really?".

Definitely didn't care about Iris recognizing Barry, it seemed stupid and odd. It makes sense but it's just annoying.

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#23 Edited by Wolfrazer (16177 posts) - - Show Bio

I can agree on a whole lot of this, especially 90s Flash. Dat said tho....dat 90s Flash costume...still on point! Hope we get more at some point.

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#24 Posted by Lan_Fan (13069 posts) - - Show Bio

Hey, at least now we know that Flash's top speed is mach 7! Lmao.

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#25 Edited by Wolfrazer (16177 posts) - - Show Bio

You know speaking of speed, since everyone should have known it was inconsistent to begin with...why are people treating Flash's speed different than he is in the comics? I mean they are basically the same are they not? His speed is as whatever the plot says, so debating on the speed is kinda useless.

I mean I never really see people lowballing comic Flash's speed and saying "lol he's so slow so he obviously can't beat X because of Y feat." So....?? Am I missing something here?

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#26 Posted by weavile (293 posts) - - Show Bio

Batwoman is badass, Flash 90s is barely there. Monitor is just a walking plot device. Lois Lane is the entire Supergirl show sum up in 1 person and for the love of god why is Superman so weak. Like everytime he appear I want him to be a heavy hitter, a top dog, a hero we all need and then he become folder. We already have the Kara has stronger willpower/power shit but why not let Clark has some of the glory

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#27 Posted by MICKEY-MOUSE (36710 posts) - - Show Bio

I guess we all have our opinions, I thought it was wonderful; 10 mins in I and I knew what this was a promo tape for Infinite Crisis, a Batwoman show, a Supergirl/Batwoman teamup, a possible Superman/Lois Lane Show, And fan service. I loved it. I’m extremely excited about what they have lined up. I think the average non comicviner would agree with me.

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#28 Posted by SaintWildcard (21783 posts) - - Show Bio

I guess we all have our opinions, I thought it was wonderful; 10 mins in I and I knew what this was a promo tape for Infinite Crisis, a Batwoman show, a Supergirl/Batwoman teamup, a possible Superman/Lois Lane Show, And fan service. I loved it. I’m extremely excited about what they have lined up. I think the average non comicviner would agree with me.

Hey, you love commercials, that's your bag, No biggie

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#29 Posted by jashro44 (52339 posts) - - Show Bio

@wolfrazer: I think the issue is more so then stating he was only going Mach 7 when he clearly wasn't. The closest I can think of to an example of that in the comics is during Morrison JLA when flash saves a bunch of people in less than a picosecond but the says he is going "a hairs breath short of light speed". That's more forgivable though because even though we conflicting figures Wally was still moving moving impossibly fast to pull off an impossible feat.

The Mach 7 thing is just ridiculous. Rail gun bullets move faster than Mach 7. Moving at Mach 7 shouldn't do that.

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#30 Posted by MonsterStomp (36748 posts) - - Show Bio

@saintwildcard: I come into these crossovers expecting fan service. Plot is secondary.

Plot should be primary. As much as I love seeing characters come together, it won't have a lasting effect if the plot is lacklustre.

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#31 Posted by Wolfrazer (16177 posts) - - Show Bio

@jashro44: So then clearly Mach 7 is wrong because he was obviously moving far faster than that logically.

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#32 Posted by jashro44 (52339 posts) - - Show Bio

@wolfrazer: Yea but it's just really dumb. I don't know why they used Mach 7.

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#33 Posted by beatboks1 (9962 posts) - - Show Bio

Well I loved it.

The thing is I never go into these with any type of expectation i find it always sets you up to be dissapointed.

Also FYI guys this wasnt COIE this was as DC continuity goes a year or so before hand. The monitor appeared in almost every comic title for a year or so before COIE as an arms dealer type character giving villains big bad weapons so they could push their enemy heroes to new levels of heroism as a test. If anything when I saw the previews that is what I expected and what I got. We never learned in any of that his true intent or his true level of power. So honestly we got a lot more from this tie in than I expected as it went further to set Crisis up. So for me this painted a massive promise for next years cross over.

Some points to make

1. Anyone who expected to see the 90s flash in a CW show that has made exclusive deals with netflixs denying the rights to their shows to DC Universe when DC Universe have the rights to 90's is Flash was deluding themselves. This simply could never have happened due to licences which is why we didn't see much.

2. It has been announced that DC Universe is going to allow Netflix to carry Titans eccetera off American Shores this is presumably and deal so they can obtain rights do The CW shows and share the rights of their shows with Netflix meaning potentially next year different story. If anything the cameo of 90s flash was probably only allowed to preempt that.

3. Courtesy of Legends and Supergirl we now have a rich history and future of the DC Universe established. when crisis occursed it was across all time and universes. so when COIE DOES occurr it's going to bring in gypsy it's going to bring in Jay Garrick it's going to bring in Jesse quick the legends, legion of Superheroes, The Justice Society from the 40s, Jonah Hex.

4. The main and only servant of the anti monitor in COIE was psycho pirate and he was introduced during the cross over and rehighlighted in the closing scene in Arkum showing what is yet to come.

The set up has now been done to have a crisis and I'm hoping (but not expecting) that when they do it will be after solidified deals between Netflix and DC universe to incorporate Titans, Doom Patrol, CW Verse and Black Lightning all into a single universe with a completely integrated history.

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#34 Edited by the_stegman (40186 posts) - - Show Bio

@monsterstomp: Meh, I disagree. A good example is Avengers. The plot wasn't anything amazing, but seeing all these heroes who we know and love finally meet, THAT'S the spectacle. Same here. I had a blast Watching Barry and Ollie switch bodies. And the sheer amount of Easter eggs had be giggling like a nerdy school girl. That Smallville nod especially.

My only disappointment was not enough 90's Flash.

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#35 Posted by MICKEY-MOUSE (36710 posts) - - Show Bio
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#36 Posted by camilopezo (1979 posts) - - Show Bio

Superman is now super jobber.

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#37 Posted by kiba (3722 posts) - - Show Bio

@beatboks1: I never considered 90s Flash could be limited due to licenses, thanks for pointing that out but i still think he should have been used more or not at all.

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#38 Edited by beatboks1 (9962 posts) - - Show Bio

@kiba: i suspect he was included as a cameo due to negotiations occuring between DC universe and Netflix. Both companies probably have an expectation of a deal and a porential for poth to dually use all characters (which can only benifit them both). Obviously DCU released the character for them to use, I susspect out of respect for the negotiations they limited his use so as to not step on toes and undermine.

Obviously its an easter egg pointing to his potential future use, which will be after deals are all completed.

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#39 Posted by SaintWildcard (21783 posts) - - Show Bio

@beatboks1: I don't think any of that is true regarding negotiations about 90's Flash.

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#40 Posted by beatboks1 (9962 posts) - - Show Bio

@saintwildcard:

negotiations are being conducted between DC Universe and Netflix with regards Neflix carrying DC Universe exclusive content like Titans outside the US.

That was abounced two nonths ago.

90's flash is a property of DC Universe as are all warner DC properties not currently licensed to other media outlets.

I dont believe that they are negotiating for 90's flash because it was one of the worst rating super hero shows ever (because he only fought ordinary criminals up the last dew eps which was too late).

I do however think (actually am certain) that DCU allowed the producers of CW/Netflix to use the character as part of negotiations as an olive branch because there is no way that they would have used a character version they didnt have the rights to without permission.

That would in effect give DCU a means of legally just taking the license from them. I doubt that CW would allow that to happen that easily to two of its highest rated shows (Flash has a rating of 0.8 and arrow 0.7 with aidiences between 2.5 to 3 mill per episode)

If you think for a second they would have then your crazy.

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#41 Edited by SaintWildcard (21783 posts) - - Show Bio

@beatboks1: Yeah..... no... not to all of that. It was just a shitty cameo, end of story. The talks were about the new streaming service shows, and that was it. How you then tie that to the 90's Flash and how putting him in an event in the CW causes some legal mess is jarring. I have a headache after reading that post, so please no more bizarre legal theories

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#42 Posted by beatboks1 (9962 posts) - - Show Bio

@saintwildcard:

hahaha its not a theory.

DCU have the rights to 90's flash (they are the only one airing/straming the show). That is a fact. CW does not.

No other production company would ever use a character that another held the license for without said licensees agrement. Especially not against the company who has launched more legal suits over its property than any other. So another fact is the inclusion of 90s flash in any CW show (cameo or otherwise) had to have been allowed by the one holding the license.

National comics first suit of another publisher was way back in 1939 over Burns publications "Wonder Man". Fact not theory.

They own the rights to Fawcett Publications Shazam family and a few dozen other properties because of these very law suits. Fact not Theory.

It was only a few years ago that they themselves wouldnt use the name Superboy in print becase Seigal and Shuster estates were suing them due to changed legislation. Fact not theory

There is literally no way CW/Netflix has a right to the 90's flash without DC/Warner explicitely signing off on it. Fact not theory.

When Flash and SG first crossed over there was a signed deal b ed tween CBS and CW for that to occur. Fact not theory

But you expect another character to appear on CW without a license agrement?

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#43 Edited by SaintWildcard (21783 posts) - - Show Bio

@beatboks1: a giant word wall of facts that have very little to do with your initial hypothesis. Which is that the reason the 90's Flash scene was so shit short, was as some sort of negotiating tactic. I think you're overstating the worth and cost of using 90's Flash. You act as if he had appeared more it would have caused some legal rights collapse. They could have used him as much as they wanted for the event most likely, but just didn't do it. I'm aware that they need permission to use 90's Flash, but you act as if though DCU put their foot down for some weird ass reason which I don't even think you believe, and if you do... you're on your own with that one.

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#44 Posted by Alavanka (2580 posts) - - Show Bio

Man if you can't use the character, then don't even put him in. Having the actor that plays Jay on the show play Barry is just massively confusing.

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#45 Posted by beatboks1 (9962 posts) - - Show Bio

@saintwildcard:

Dude one of those facts was that CW would not use a character that they did not have the rights to unless it was signed off by the company that did ergo DCU signed off on them using 90s flash

This occurs by one of two things they either pay for the rights to use the character which frankly aren't worth it or there is some other trade off or negotiation. There's no way CW would have paid for a property that failed it didn't even last a few episodes into its second season due to s*** ratings. While flash et all or some of their best rating shows they don't rate that flipping well.

When mcu negotiated with Fox to be able to use ego in the second Guardians of the Galaxy movie they trade it off by giving them the rights to make alterations to a character they used in Deadpool 2.

If you don't think the deal I'm proposing is what happened what do you think DC got out of CW using the character? simple enough question because they had to have gotten something. Good will in other negotiations is the most obvious answer given we know they have them. It also explains the very short nature of the appearance.

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#46 Posted by SaintWildcard (21783 posts) - - Show Bio

@beatboks1: I'm not going to read any of that, stop replying to me and go post your bizzare theories elsewhere.

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#47 Posted by StormShadow_X (16645 posts) - - Show Bio

Nothing but set up for next year

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#48 Posted by SaintWildcard (21783 posts) - - Show Bio

Nothing but set up for next year

Forgot to put that in the review. It was 2 backdoor pilots (one could be simply writing Superman off, but we'll see) and set up for the next year. This event was the AoU of tv episodes

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#49 Posted by beatboks1 (9962 posts) - - Show Bio

@saintwildcard: of course not when a point is made to which there is no reasonable counter and you lack the courage to concede its possibility, just blow it off.

Provide me with a single reasonable thing that DCU could have recieved that would give them a reason to allow a property they own in exclusion to be used by a competitor without payment and you have won the argument.

They are the ones who have anounced that Netfix will carry Titans outide the US despite the fact they could make more profit doing so themselves with little to no expense.

Properties are sold to mitigate the risks of their production costs. Selling shows to CW, the deal done by CW with Netflix etc make it less risky to produce a show as your guarrantteed at least recouping your production costs PLUS a small profit (that grows the longer it runs and reruns)

When a show has a proven success like Flash, Arrow, SG etc and can last as many seasons as it has the money that can be made by DCU running it on its streaming network is substantial (it increases the draw factor and potential market). They have more to gain by giving a little in return for that end without costing those they are dealing with all that much.

Yes what I'm saying is an educated guess. They may be negotiating for something else. It just seems the far more likely goal.

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#50 Posted by IAmTheLaw (768 posts) - - Show Bio

Who was the guy that beat the Super-bot at the end?

I liked the first crossover episode. The rest were very mediocre.