Dynamic Tiering System Axis II: Metaphysics

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etriel

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#1  Edited By etriel

Dynamic Tiering System: Metaphysics Axis

https://comicvine.gamespot.com/forums/gen-discussion-1/dynamic-tiering-system-linear-format-draft-2052424/

Here is a sequel thread, that works in conjunction with the other Tiering System thread.

This tiering system measures potency and deepness of metaphysics, powers, abstracts and reality warping.

Rather than Cosmology power, this thread deals with Metaphysics potency.

Type 4: Quantum Type / Base Reality / Science / Energy

Characters who wield the power of Mathematics, Physics, Matter, Time and Space, at a regular, surface level.

Surface Level, Nominal Reality Warping. With no Concepts Involved whatsoever.

Manipulating forms deeper than Matter, at the level of Quantic Sizes that define all Matter, all Entropy, and Mathematics.

Examples:

  • Dr. Manhattan

Note:

  • There is a degree of nuance between Type 3 and Type 4.

Type 3: Shallow Conceptual

Characters who can warp reality at a Shallow, but Conceptual Level. Deeper than Quantum.

Basic magic that can and such, do things such as erasing matter, wielding "magic" or mystical powers, with mere thoughts, out of reality. But merely wield power and magic over energies and matter.

They can erase concepts, but never at the magnitude as Type 2s (I admit, Type 3 and Type 2 can get a little shady in how different they are).

They can erase you, by erasing the concept of you.

This is a standard reality warper, magic-user or whatnot.

They may transcend them conceptually but are far shallower than Type II.

They are also often (but not always) never go beyond Baseline Multiversal.

Examples:

  • Characters with Low-Conceptual Hax
  • ???
  • Z-eno

Note:

  • There is a degree of nuance between Type 3 and Type 2.

Type 2: Nuanced Conceptual

Characters who can warp reality at an unquantifiable level of Conceptual or Plot Level. Basic magic, and erasing matter, with thoughts, out of reality.

They may wield power over Dualities, Boundaries, Concepts, and appear to be deep compared to Reality Warpers.

However, they are not that deep, and can be affected by degrees of Geometric Power or Power of Physics if the Cosmology is Powerful enough to counter.

So said characters are under the influence of Science and Mathematics to a degree.

Examples:

  • Pre-Retcon Beyonder & Pre-Retcon Molecule Man (Marvel Comics)
  • Altair (Re: Creators)
  • Multi-Eternity & Living Tribunal (Marvel Comics)
  • Alien-X (Ben 10)

Type 1: False Archetype / Narrative Level / Deep Conceptual

The peak of Linear-Power Metaphysics.

Characters who wield deep, and a wide, seemingly limitless array of abstract power over Boundaries, Plot, Stories, Ideas, Concepts, Causality, Possibility and Dualities such as Life and Death, and are logically completely immune to any Cardinal Level of the power of Geometry Spatial Hierarchies that can contain the Power of Physics.

They warp concepts at a Narrative Level.

They also control and transcend the Narrative that contains Geometry Mathematics and Physics.

They also reside incomplete, Conceptual Spaces that transcend Geometry Physics and Mathematics.

Transcending Reality Physics like Literal Fiction.

However, they are still limited by a Linear Power, by a Cardinal Level, albeit, on a Meta-Conceptual Hierarchy that can span endlessly. And can belong to Conceptual Reality/Fiction or Conceptual, Meta-Hierarchies.

Many characters who are Cosmologically Tier-B, can fit for Type 1 Metaphysics. However, there are Tier-Bs who do not fall under this, such as Beyonder.

Examples:

  • Witches & Voyagers (Umineko no Naku Koro ni)
  • Hadou Gods & Gudou Gods (Shinzaverse/Dies Irae/KKK)
  • YHVH & Demi-Fiend, ect. (Shin Megami Tensei)
  • CCC Gilgamesh & BB (Type-Moon/Nasuverse)
  • SCP-3812 (SCP Foundation)
  • Othinus & True Magic Gods (To-Aru/Magical Index)
  • Mr. Mxyzptlk & 5th Dimensional Imps (DC Comics)
  • Lord English & Pickle Inspector (MS Paint Adventures Wiki)

Oh and finally.

  • Several Other Multiversal Beings from Nasuverse

Note:

  • Characters must at least be Tier-C in Cosmology Power. One must be a Conceptual Superiority over a Baseline Quantum Multiverse by more than 2 or so conceptual degrees.
  • THERE IS NO nuance between Type A and Type 1.

Type A Metaphysics: True Archetype / Incardinals / Non-Linear / In-Addable

Characters who are completely and fundamentally abstract and immune to any level of quality or lineage, of Cardinal/Add-Based Value or Linear Power, IE, not affected by any level of Addable Infinity. And are Trans-Dual to the Bigger/Smaller Infinity.

Even the Dualities of Bigger Infinity/Inferior Infinity.

As such, Characters are sometimes capable of Destroying any Metaphysical Construct of any size, of any imagination/unimagination.

Examples:

  • EOS Battler Ushiromiya (Umineko no Naku Koro ni)
  • Arceuid Brunestud (Nasuverse/Type-Moon)
  • Death of the Endless (DC/Vertigo)

Type S Pataphysics: Essence / False Omnipotent

Characters who are extremely deep, wielding power over the Essence of Fundamental Forms that form Trans-Dualities and Dualities, bar the Creator. And are completely immune to any level of Addable Value Hierarchy.

Breaking the constraints of the last true conceptual bind to the Singularity of God.

Such characters are indefinable and unconstrained by all Dualities, Trialities, Metaphysics, Pataphysics and Abstractions and all Fundamental Essences.

These characters are effectively completely Omnipotent to anything Non-Omnipotent, without necessarily being Truly Omnipotent.

Hence "False Omnipotent".

Examples

  • Li Qiye (Emperor's Domination)
  • Bai Xaochun (Er-Genverse)
  • Meng Hao (Er-Genverse)
  • Pralaya (DC/Vertigo)
  • Lucifer (Pre-Fall/Will Aspect) (DC/Vertigo)

TYPE O: True Archetype

Omnipotent, Supreme Archetypal, Absolute Boundless Beings. Whether Conscious, Unconcious or Subconscious.

Examples

  • The One Above All (Marvel Comics) Downgrade to Tier C.
  • The Presence/Void/Source (DC & Vertigo/Black Label)
  • The Akashic Records (Type-Moon/Nasuverse)
  • The Creator (Umineko/When They Cry)
  • Gan (The Dark Tower) Downgrade to Tier B.
  • The Ultimate Dao (Ergenverse/Several Xian-Xia Novels)
  • The One Giver (The World of Darkness)
  • The Amaranth (The Elder Scrolls)

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etriel

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#4  Edited By etriel

No Caption Provided
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Sample Concept of my previous versions of my tiering system ^

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etriel

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#5  Edited By etriel

To sum up the Tiers. Simplified.

  • Type 4: Science Physics Manipulators

  • Type 3: Baseline Magic / Shallower Concept Manipulation

  • Type 2: Deep or Mid / Aristotelian Concept Manipulators

Still affectable Mathematics / Physics Powers and Cosmologies and Raw Power

  • Type 1: False Archetypes

Deepest Conceptual Power while still being Linear

  • Type A: Trans-Dualities, Dualities, Platonic Concepts, In-Cardinal Non-Linear Power

  • Type S: False Omnipotence / Essence of Archetypes

  • Type O: Boundless, Absolute, Supreme, Omnipotent

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Senior_Nepuko

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#6  Edited By Senior_Nepuko

@etriel: Isn't False Omnipotence nigh-omnipotence?

I mean, if you're not omnipotent but seem to, that's Nigh-omnipotence as far as I know.

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etriel

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#7  Edited By etriel

@senior_nepuko said:

@etriel: Isn't False Omnipotence nigh-omnipotence?

I mean, if you're not omnipotent but seem to, that's Nigh-omnipotence as far as I know.

They're synonymous here, it's just that Nigh-Omnipotence was butchered as a word so many times, that I thought I used a cooler substitute.

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Senior_Nepuko

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lol, alright.

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MrBallins

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#9  Edited By MrBallins

@etriel: Isn't the Amaranth just a person becoming a new Godhead and creating their own dream (ala style Azathoth)? I don't think that they would be considered omnipotent

I already mentioned why Akasha may not be omnipotent in the last post

Hadou Gods are fine for now, though you may want to put a little disclaimer that they could be higher(or lower, you never know) depending on what information we get from Avesta and Pantheon (if Masada manages to launch it again like he is hoping to)

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zgtfreak

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#10  Edited By zgtfreak

@mrballins: I already mentioned why Akasha may not be omnipotent in the last post

Nasu writing fodder characters to say they are omnipotent for hype =/= describing the boundless source of creation that all things come from and return to. Akasha has more evidence for her omnipotence than most other omnipotent entities in fiction honestly.

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MrBallins

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@zgtfreak: It's not just him describing them as omnipotent, it is that on top of other statements that have been said (such as Amaterasu mentioning that one needs to reach the Throne of God to match, etc). This is why I say that it may not be omnipotent, as in that it is not certain whether it is

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COOLGUY18

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Ooh, nice thread dude.

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zgtfreak

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@mrballins: You can reach an omnipotent source without becoming omnipotent actually. DC characters are a good example. It would mean that Amaterasu derives some of her power from an omnipotent source though.

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MrBallins

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#14  Edited By MrBallins

@zgtfreak: >You can reach an omnipotent source without becoming omnipotent actually.

Yeah, but several other Nasuverse characters have also been described as omnipotent (which kinda devalues the term), and Akasha (or Void) was not referred as omnipotent in narration but by a character if memory serves me correct

Tbh when it comes to omnipotents its usually quite iffy whether they are truly omnipotent or just perceived as omnipotent by lesser characters. And Amaterasu deriving her power from an omnipotent source would't make sense since she still has limited raw power

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zgtfreak

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@mrballins: Yeah, but several other Nasuverse characters have also been described as omnipotent (which kinda devalues the term)

Again, they aren't the boundless source of creation.

and Akasha (or Void) was not referred as omnipotent in narration but by a character if memory serves me correct

Akasha referred to herself as omnipotent. But she is apathetic. She cares for nothing and considers everything pointless. So she has zero reason to boast.

Tbh when it comes to omnipotents its usually quite iffy whether they are truly omnipotent or just perceived as omnipotent by lesser characters. And Amaterasu deriving her power from an omnipotent source would't make sense since she still has limited raw power

Aspects of her may be beyond linear power, like her unknown hax, ect. Similar to Arcueid. You can still have raw power, but have parts of you or hax go beyondraw power.

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COOLGUY18

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@etriel: Also dude, I'm pretty curious about where Accelerator belongs here since he is a bit, weird. Powerlevel and haxwise. His Hax is more powerful than Othinus' (Since he crapped an attack stronger and deeper than the Gugnir) and he is literally beyond the Sepiroth now, making him conceptually higher than the Magic Gods. BUT HIS DESTRUCTION FEAT ONLY CAPS AT GALAXY LEVEL AT BEST LOL.

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etriel

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@ovy7@drakotheghoul

@etriel: Also dude, I'm pretty curious about where Accelerator belongs here since he is a bit, weird. Powerlevel and haxwise. His Hax is more powerful than Othinus' (Since he crapped an attack stronger and deeper than the Gugnir) and he is literally beyond the Sepiroth now, making him conceptually higher than the Magic Gods. BUT HIS DESTRUCTION FEAT ONLY CAPS AT GALAXY LEVEL AT BEST LOL.

I run into dilemmas like that because Accelerator seems like he can be affected by a degree of physics power. So I have to think on it a bit.

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Thekillerklok

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@etriel: if I am understanding your tiering system right, I suspect type 3.

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etriel

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#19  Edited By etriel

@thekillerklok said:

@etriel: if I am understanding your tiering system right, I suspect type 3.

Yeah, I wonder about that.

I rated True Magic Gods as False Archetypes... as in... conceptually transcend reality physics and existing in a conceptual realm beyond physics.

But they can be affected by conceptual power that is not completely beyond physics.

I admit, my system needs more... refining.. I perhaps would divide the TYPES (not tier) to separate the characters who are only nigh-immune to physics entities from reality dimensions with hax.

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Senior_Nepuko

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@etriel: Since you put Meng Hao between Power of Imagination and Outcomes, Oppositions&Boundaries, I guess Type 5 is between 6 and 7 then?

Tho, that pic seemed to be from before you knew of Essence and Meng Hao's Essence or whatever, so maybe it's outdated and I'm wrong I guess.

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johnsmjs36

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@senior_nepuko: Lin Feng can actually use Time Space to do something similar to omnipresence can't he?

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etriel

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#22  Edited By etriel

@senior_nepuko said:

@etriel: Since you put Meng Hao between Power of Imagination and Outcomes, Oppositions&Boundaries, I guess Type 5 is between 6 and 7 then?

Tho, that pic seemed to be from before you knew of Essence and Meng Hao's Essence or whatever, so maybe it's outdated and I'm wrong I guess.

Yep, you're correct. Those graphs are outdated, as I stated, they're just a visual sample. I plan on making an IMPROVED template for everyone to download and judge where to put their characters they are experts on.

I do believe that Meng Hao has something equivalent to Imagination-Warping just like WF Mxy, which is what makes him potently dangerous. I don't see how dimensional "addable infinity" tiering matters to "Imagination warpers" anyway.

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Thekillerklok

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@etriel: Blurb from AWE taken right before Senior bai transcends.

"How could there truly be something Eternal? According to the people from the Never-Ending Dao Domain, their fourth step is the Eternal Realm.

"But if there is something uniquely Eternal... perhaps it's just one's power of imagination." He sighed.

"Imagination is the most powerful force there is. Essentially, imagination is Will.

"Take, for example, the first time I saw the moonflower seeds spreading out. I remember being moved, because... I was born from the very thoughts of the original Arch-Ancestor, from his imagination. And all of the Eternal Sons were born from the Eternal Mother in the same way." He closed his eyes, and could almost see the Eternal Mother letting loose a cloud of dandelion seeds, all of them containing her Will, which she hoped would eventually grow into children, one of whom would bring an end to the great catastrophe....

Those expressions of Will became the three sovereigns, who, in the moment before their death, released their own Will. One fragment of that Will... contained something that Bai Xiaochun recognized as his own aura.

Laughing softly, he rose to his feet. As he did, everything around him vanished, and he took a step forward. A vortex appeared, similar to the one he had created earlier. As it spun and swirled, it opened up to reveal... a boundless river!

The River of Time and Space!

He stepped forward into the river, and disappeared. As he did, he spoke, causing his words to echo out into the starry sky before eventually fading away.

"One Will to create oceans. One Will to summon mulberry fields. One Will to slaughter countless devils. One Will to eradicate innumerable immortals.... Only my Will... is Eternal."

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ovy7

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Nice nice

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Senior_Nepuko

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@etriel: Alright. Yea, imagination was also talked about in Er Gen-verse, what Klok showed for exemple. He got the Real-Unreal Essence anyway.

Hm, I'm curious how you'll tier Bai Xiaochun. He's the strongest Er Gen MC, at the respective ends of their novels, for now.

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#26  Edited By Senior_Nepuko

@johnsmjs36: Missed your post.

The Supreme Heavenly Mirror's seeming "omnipresence" was described as :

It was not in the area above the Great Void Sect cultivators, but neither was it anywhere in this realm. It has an indescribable presence and an indeterminable location, yet it seemed completely omnipresent. It intruded into every dot, every line, every surface, and every area of space-time - reflecting the true essence of omnipresence.

And later Lin Feng was described as :

Lin Feng was now like the Supreme Heavenly Mirror, seemingly omnipresent across all stretches of space-time.

Later when the demons ganged up on him :

In the blink of an eye, Lin Feng instantaneously appeared before the group of people. It seemed like an insignificant move, but everybody gathered 120% of their concentration to face off against him.

Their immensely powerful attack was intercepted by Lin Feng's Dao Fruit, while Lin Feng's next strike was imminent.

It was neither a dimensional shift nor time warp. In that instant, Lin Feng actually simultaneously took on each of his many ennemies.

In reality, the waves of his assault were not perfectly synchronized. But it was not because Lin Feng was incapable of doing so. Rather it was because he executed them casually, with no intention to synchronize them.

Although the attacks were not truly synchronized, everybody, including Illusory Sun Hades, Origins Dragon King, Heavenly Charms Grand Sage, Emperor of the Dead, and even the Cosmic Marble Buddha could clearly determine that the person before them was indeed Lin Feng himself.

Every individual, no matter the distance between each of them, was at that moment in close combat with Lin Feng. They were against a man who was seemingly omnipresent and residing in every dimension.

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debunkdude

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@Senior_Nepuko:

I'm curious how you'll tier Bai Xiaochun. He's the strongest Er Gen MC, at the respective ends of their novels, for now

Well since meng is tier S He should be too since beyond that is tier 0/0.

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Senior_Nepuko

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@debunkdude: I was rather talking about those pictures/graphs of his, but yea.

And my bad, I thought I was in the previous thread.

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debunkdude

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#29  Edited By debunkdude

@Senior_Nepuko: You mean cosmology + metaphysics combined?well cosmology is kinda irrelevant now sooooo

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etriel

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#30  Edited By etriel

@debunkdude said:

@Senior_Nepuko: You mean cosmology + metaphysics combined?well cosmology is kinda irrelevant now sooooo

Cosmology is still a useful tool, but they are just not end-alls, unless you want to extremely simplify the feats and abilities of every fiction into this singular lineage of power.

So....

Cosmology can be useful (still) if among two beings are on the same quality of metaphysics on Type 1 or Type 2, but are Conceptually Superior in Addable-Infinity.

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debunkdude

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@etriel: No I meant since we already know about meng hao then discussing bai xiaochun's cosmology would be useless.

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Senior_Nepuko

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#32  Edited By Senior_Nepuko

@debunkdude said:

@etriel: No I meant since we already know about meng hao then discussing bai xiaochun's cosmology would be useless.

That's clearly not what your comment says lol. But alright ;).

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COOLGUY18

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@etriel: Actually, Accelerator is literally immune to physics lol. His vector manipulation is almost perfect that he can reflect/control anything as long as he understands the theory about his opponents powers. He could even reflect teleportation which is more complex than the law of physics. So yeah, anything physical, the laws of physic, and even scalar quantities are nothing to him.

But that's not my point. What i'm asking is that even if his raw power only caps at galaxy level, but his hax is better than the Magic Gods, and that he is (probably) conceptually and metaphysically beyond them, would he be type 1?

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etriel

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@etriel: Actually, Accelerator is literally immune to physics lol. His vector manipulation is almost perfect that he can reflect/control anything as long as he understands the theory about his opponents powers. He could even reflect teleportation which is more complex than the law of physics. So yeah, anything physical, the laws of physic, and even scalar quantities are nothing to him.

But that's not my point. What i'm asking is that even if his raw power only caps at galaxy level, but his hax is better than the Magic Gods, and that he is (probably) conceptually and metaphysically beyond them, would he be type 1?

I would regard that his Hax is probably Type 1.

I might not have been clear, but to be Type 1 being, you have to be 100% transcendant to all physics and the regular reality of your verse. You are not affected by any Physics based attack and you are completely conceptual and transcending the Time of the Physics Multiverse, conceptually.

With an array of Conceptual attacks, you can only be harmed by Conceptual Attacks.

If Accel can affect such a being, suppose he has Type 1 hax then.

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ShadowRazer24

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@etriel: nice tiering system

btw where would you rank marvel's Nyx and TOBA in this?

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etriel

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#36  Edited By etriel

@shadowrazer24 said:

@etriel: nice tiering system

btw where would you rank marvel's Nyx and TOBA in this?

TOBA would be Type III to Type II.

Nyx, I probably would have made her a Type I, but inferior beings can counter her with Imagination as well if in the same House of Mysteries, and thus her feats are not really of her own power to me.

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ThisIsAUsername

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Will there be a thread containining characters in their respective tiers, not just examples? If so, I assume it will be created after the Tiering system gets more improvements, and things are compiled up.

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etriel

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Will there be a thread containining characters in their respective tiers, not just examples? If so, I assume it will be created after the Tiering system gets more improvements, and things are compiled up.

Yes, there will.

Actually there are going to be refined versions of the two Axis Threads. As well.

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ThisIsAUsername

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@etriel: Alright, thanks. Interested to see the refined versions, good luck.

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debunkdude

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That's clearly not what your comment says lol. But alright ;).

Well I was referencing the whole higher dimensions vs parallel spaces thing