Does the Naruto universe have good speed feats?

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SuperDuperBumpe

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#1  Edited By SuperDuperBumpe
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As has been pointed out before, this page indicates that having a 1/1000 second or a millisecond reaction time, or reacting to anything that moves hundreds of times the speed of sound, is practically impossible by the standards of the Narutoverse up to this point at least. Now, we can cite the fact that Zetsu has been around since Kaguya, so he might be referring to SO6P type characters, but I'm going to ignore that because Kishi likely didn't have that in mind. He also hasn't fleshed out Madara/Hashirama's power level just yet, and characters like BM Naruto/Minato and other War Arc top tiers haven't been invented yet. It may even not apply to the Raikage, who Zetsu may not have had the chance to observe

But it does apply in general up to characters that can be classified as "Mid Kage" and "High Kage" level. Characters like Pain, Obito, Jirayah, etc cannot dodge something in a ~1 millisecond frame. Itachi was able to react to it by putting up his Susanoo in time, but that's actually not that impressive.

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Take this feat from Daredevil, I would imagine reacting to a bullet from a handgun at that distance would take about 5-10 milliseconds. Now, he's not just reacting to it here, he's not even dodging it, he's casually deflecting two of them at once while moving forward. Whereas in Itachi's case, he just had to activate the Susanoo mentally. Daredevil is pretty exceptionally fast for a street leveler and he has enhanced senses, but other characters like Batman/Nightwing have also displayed feats that would put them around the ~10-millisecond mark.

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Let's move to the higher end of street-levelers, where of course one of the fastest examples is Spider-Man. Here, he displays about a ~3 millisecond reaction time where he is able to easily dodge fire from what appears to be an MP5K from around a meter away. A quick google search gives me 375 m/s as the muzzle velocity of an MP5K, which would give us a 2.67 millisecond reaction time in which Spiderman was actually able to dodge fire

Now, Itachi is meant to be a pretty fast character. Not a speedster, but he's pretty fast. His physicals were more or less on par with a base Hebi Sasuke in this fight, so at least at the start of the fight(admittedly he is definitely weaker at this point of the fight), he would be fast enough to blitz even high-level Jonin like Yamato

If we take this feat literally, it would mean Kage-level characters are not really that much faster than street-level comic book characters. And I haven't been able to find many impressive speed feats for non-SO6P tier characters

But perhaps I am wrong, what speed feats are there for non-SO6P tier characters?

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Edgelord91

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Ay is near LS according to the data book

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TaurusAldebaran

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Ay is near LS according to the data book

He is not, that is a bad translation.

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TaurusAldebaran

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Problem with Naruto's feat is that they are mostly unquantifiable.

You have a general idea of who is faster than who, but you don't really know how fast that particular character is, neither by what amount the other character supass the first.

And that problem is not limited to speed. Kishimoto simply does not care to elaborate and sometimes he contradict himself.

Scaling is a mess.

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UltimateSage

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#5  Edited By UltimateSage

lol

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SuperDuperBumpe

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Problem with Naruto's feat is that they are mostly unquantifiable.

You have a general idea of who is faster than who, but you don't really know how fast that particular character is, neither by what amount the other character supass the first.

And that problem is not limited to speed. Kishimoto simply does not care to elaborate and sometimes he contradict himself.

Scaling is a mess.

Yeah, that seems to be the issue. There is simply a lack of genuinely objective speed feats that one can scale from. For every chakra lightning feat, you can counter with the existence of the Sound Village. For the Haku FTL nonsense, you can bring up Pain's cooldown period. Scaling seems to be based off of feats that aren't objectively MHS

The only thing I can think of is using explosion-timing or FTE movements

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Xebec

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no

80% of naruto speed scaling comes from databooks and the obvious outlier of LS kid kakashi

my opinion = fax

ur opinion = creditless

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Rolt

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It started off well in part 1, where some Genins surpass the speed of sound and outspeed Gaara's sand that moved faster than an explosion.

But things go sour in Shippuden. E.g. Pain's 5 sec cooldown, team Kakashi and Guy couldn't outrun Deidara's explosion, and Kirin.

As pointed out, scaling mostly comes from the databook, which uses figurative speech when hyping up speed, and a lot of time the texts contradicted each other. I remember in my debate with a Naruto wanker and the dude's entire speed meta was from the databook, couldn't come up with 1 on-screen feat.

Answering the question: Naruto verse for the most part doesn't have concrete speed, until you get to the very top of the food chain. A Kages is faster than Rock Lee (who has hypersonic feats) but is slower than lightning.

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takenstew22

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#9 takenstew22  Moderator

Naruto’s feat of dodging Madara’s light fang is one of the higher tier speed feats of the verse.

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RukelnikovFTW

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#10  Edited By RukelnikovFTW

Kakashi cut a lightning bolt in half as a teen

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TaurusAldebaran

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#11  Edited By TaurusAldebaran

Kakashi cut a lightning bolt in half as a teen

A natural lightning or a chakra generated lightning?

No Caption Provided

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TaurusAldebaran

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#12  Edited By TaurusAldebaran

@xebec said:

no

80% of naruto speed scaling comes from databooks and the obvious outlier of LS kid kakashi

my opinion = fax

ur opinion = creditless

That is not an outlier.

Lightning generated by chakra and natural lightning have different speeds.

No Caption Provided
No Caption Provided

This is Kakashi outrunning a Raiton jutsu.

No Caption Provided

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GreyTheJiren

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#13  Edited By GreyTheJiren

I don't think you get it.

You know that Zetsu stated that it takes 0.001s for Kirin to REACH the ground, not that it takes such reaction speed to block it. It means that if the cloud is as high as 5km then the speed of Kirin will turn out to be 14,706 times the speed of sound. Now, imagine blocking it in close range like Itachi did, that will require better speed.

You can't seriously compare something like that with deflecting a bullet that only moves at the speed of sound, the difference between them is almost 15k.

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RukelnikovFTW

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@rukelnikovftw said:

Kakashi cut a lightning bolt in half as a teen

A natural lightning or a chakra generated lightning?

No Caption Provided

In the manga its mentioned by Gai that kakashi split lightning but not shown, in the anime its shown during a flashback and its a group of ninja doing a ritual that conjured clouds and lightning, the lightning is not coming from the ninjas but from the sky, so it seems to be something like Kirin, still its not shown very well, we see Kakashi charging the ninjas with chidori then lightning comes crashing down and it skips to flashback Gai surprised saying Kakashi cut lightning. Couldn't find it in yt, but its ep 288 of shippuden.

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TaurusAldebaran

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@taurusaldebaran said:
@rukelnikovftw said:

Kakashi cut a lightning bolt in half as a teen

A natural lightning or a chakra generated lightning?

No Caption Provided

In the manga its mentioned by Gai that kakashi split lightning but not shown, in the anime its shown during a flashback and its a group of ninja doing a ritual that conjured clouds and lightning, the lightning is not coming from the ninjas but from the sky, so it seems to be something like Kirin, still its not shown very well, we see Kakashi charging the ninjas with chidori then lightning comes crashing down and it skips to flashback Gai surprised saying Kakashi cut lightning. Couldn't find it in yt, but its ep 288 of shippuden.

I know, but it is a filler.

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TaurusAldebaran

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I don't think you get it.

You know that Zetsu stated that it takes 0.001s for Kirin to REACH the ground, not that it takes such reaction speed to block it. It means that if the cloud is as high as 5km then the speed of Kirin will turn out to be 14,706 times the speed of sound. Now, imagine blocking it in close range like Itachi did, that will require better speed.

You can't seriously compare something like that with deflecting a bullet that only moves at the speed of sound, the difference between them is almost 15k.

Black Zetsu states clearly that Kirin can not be evaded because of it's speed.

He makes no mention of distance.

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GreyTheJiren

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Black Zetsu states clearly that Kirin can not be evaded because of it's speed.

He makes no mention of distance.

In the first scan of the OP it is stated clearly that 0.001s is for Lightning to reach the ground. We can get the distance that Kirin travelled by calculating the size of the Uchiha Hideout. By rough estimates, the cloud would be at an altitude of mulitple kms. And then you just use normal formula to find the speed, distance/time. You see, 0.001s doesn't say anything on its own, it is a timeframe, what matters most is the distance, that's how you find the speed of anything.

Black Zetsu states clearly that Kirin can not be evaded because of it's speed.

That's got nothing to do with my argument. But he was clearly wrong as a person blocked it on panel, from close range after it was moving at him, and that person isn't even top 10 in speed.

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TaurusAldebaran

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@taurusaldebaran said:

Black Zetsu states clearly that Kirin can not be evaded because of it's speed.

He makes no mention of distance.

In the first scan of the OP it is stated clearly that 0.001s is for Lightning to reach the ground. We can get the distance that Kirin travelled by calculating the size of the Uchiha Hideout. By rough estimates, the cloud would be at an altitude of mulitple kms. And then you just use normal formula to find the speed, distance/time. You see, 0.001s doesn't say anything on its own, it is a timeframe, what matters most is the distance, that's how you find the speed of anything.

.

Nah, that is just Kishimoto being stupid.

Black Zetsu's exact words are: " The speed of Lightning is 0,001s." But that is as wrong as saying the speed of something is 1000 km.

That is why we can't crave a speed value in the feat. What we can know for certain is that the Speed of Lightning is considerable unavoidable.

That's got nothing to do with my argument. But he was clearly wrong as a person blocked it on panel, from close range after it was moving at him, and that person isn't even top 10 in speed.

Blocking =/= Evade.

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kingogkings777

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Said Karin feat you point out in OP is LS in the databook so flip a coin for what version you want to use. For nongod tiers iirc like jonuin its lighting level I think or I might be wrong and thinking about those ninja dudes from bleach.

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GreyTheJiren

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Nah, that is just Kishimoto being stupid.

Black Zetsu's exact words are: " The speed of Lightning is 0,001s." But that is as wrong as saying the speed of something is 1000 km.

That is why we can't crave a speed value in the feat. What we can know for certain is that the Speed of Lightning is considerable unavoidable.

@greythejiren said:

That's got nothing to do with my argument. But he was clearly wrong as a person blocked it on panel, from close range after it was moving at him, and that person isn't even top 10 in speed.

Blocking =/= Evade.

Uh, if he said the speed of lightning is 0.001s it means that is the speed it takes for the lightning to strike the ground, no need to be obtuse about it, it's that simple.

You are suspiciously clinging to that “unavoidable” statement, though. Can't you just admit that Black Zetsu was clearly wrong? As his prediction of Itachi's doom was actually wrong.

Blocking =/= Evade.

It takes reaction speed to block something, which means that if a character can blitz Itachi then he would be even faster than Kirin.

Said Karin feat you point out in OP is LS in the databook so flip a coin for what version you want to use. For nongod tiers iirc like jonuin its lighting level I think or I might be wrong and thinking about those ninja dudes from bleach.

Hyperbole.

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gallavant123

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How often are intricacies from battle manga ever considered obsolete? It's the authors job to provide metric.

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TaurusAldebaran

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@taurusaldebaran said:

Nah, that is just Kishimoto being stupid.

Black Zetsu's exact words are: " The speed of Lightning is 0,001s." But that is as wrong as saying the speed of something is 1000 km.

That is why we can't crave a speed value in the feat. What we can know for certain is that the Speed of Lightning is considerable unavoidable.

@greythejiren said:

That's got nothing to do with my argument. But he was clearly wrong as a person blocked it on panel, from close range after it was moving at him, and that person isn't even top 10 in speed.

Blocking =/= Evade.

Uh, if he said the speed of lightning is 0.001s it means that is the speed it takes for the lightning to strike the ground, no need to be obtuse about it, it's that simple.

.

It doesn't matter really.

The important thing about that statesment is that Lightning is considerated unavoidable.

.

You are suspiciously clinging to that “unavoidable” statement, though.

Of course i am clinging to it.

It is one of the few statesments in the séries that bring you a set value and numbers you can works with. Much more based than some fan calcs that put these characters in FTL speed at the beginning of series.

. Can't you just admit that Black Zetsu was clearly wrong? As his prediction of Itachi's doom was actually wrong.

No can do.

Itachi could not dodge it.

Black Zetsu stated it was unavoidable.

Sasuke himself said it was a jutsu impossible to evade, meaning he himself could not evade it. And he was very relative to Itachi in speed at that point.

There are far too many things basing this feat.

.

Blocking =/= Evade.

It takes reaction speed to block something, which means that if a character can blitz Itachi then he would be even faster than Kirin.

Sure.

Itachi himself is not faster than Lightning, but the speed of actiavation of the Susano'o is. If someone can Speed Blitz the activation of the Susano'o, he can be said to be Faster than Lightning.

But there are few characters in can think that may be capable of that.

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GreyTheJiren

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#23  Edited By GreyTheJiren

@taurusaldebaran:

It doesn't matter really.

The important thing about that statesment is that Lightning is considerated unavoidable.

I am pretty sure you are trolling at this point, or just a downplayer cause Itachi actually reacted to it and blocked it. A logical person would assume that Zetsu was wrong in his judgement as it was proven false right there in the moment.

You see, your absolutist stance assumes that we should take all statements at face value and accept them. I am sure you would have no problem accepting the statement from Madara where he said that Susanoo can destroy all things in the Universe. Or other statements on the same level that are contradicted.

Itachi himself is not faster than Lightning, but the speed of actiavation of the Susano'o is. If someone can Speed Blitz the activation of the Susano'o, he can be said to be Faster than Lightning.

So, answer me this, Itachi doesn't need to see, to think and analyse his position to activate the Susanoo? So your stance is that Susanoo activates on its own and the person doesn't need to make a conscious decision to activate it?

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gallavant123

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@taurusaldebaran:

It doesn't matter really.

The important thing about that statesment is that Lightning is considerated unavoidable.

I am pretty sure you are trolling at this point, or just a downplayer cause Itachi actually reacted to it and blocked it. A logical person would assume that Zetsu was wrong in his judgement as it was proven false right there in the moment.

You see, your absolutist stance assumes that we should take all statements at face value and accept them. I am sure you would have no problem accepting the statement from Madara where he said that Susanoo can destroy all things in the Universe. Or other statements on the same level that are contradicted.

Itachi himself is not faster than Lightning, but the speed of actiavation of the Susano'o is. If someone can Speed Blitz the activation of the Susano'o, he can be said to be Faster than Lightning.

So, answer me this, Itachi doesn't need to see, to think and analyse his position to activate the Susanoo? So your stance is that Susanoo activates on its own and the person doesn't need to make a conscious decision to activate it?

No, a tinfoiler does.

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TaurusAldebaran

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@taurusaldebaran:

It doesn't matter really.

The important thing about that statesment is that Lightning is considerated unavoidable.

I am pretty sure you are trolling at this point, or just a downplayer cause Itachi actually reacted to it and blocked it. A logical person would assume that Zetsu was wrong in his judgement as it was proven false right there in the moment.

Dude... for the third time. Black Zetsu statesment was that it could not be evaded. And Itachi indeed did not aevade it, he Blocked. To block something you don't need to evade.

How in the name of God is his statesment false, tell me?

.

You see, your absolutist stance assumes that we should take all statements at face value and accept them. I am sure you would have no problem accepting the statement from Madara where he said that Susanoo can destroy all things in the Universe. Or other statements on the same level that are contradicted.

I take them literally when the author intend them to be taken so.

Are you by some chance implying Black Zetsu was being retorical or hyperbolical or methaforical when he made that statesment?

Because he was not. That statesment is meant to be taken literally and reflect the thoughs of a character that have lived more than 1.000 years in that word, and one in particular that knows the story of Shinobi, including big names like Madara and Hashirama. He have a heavy base to know what is possible and what is not. In fact he is the one that explain what is the Yata Mirror that blocked the Lightning.

On top of that, remember Black Zetsu was not the only one calling that attack Impossible to Evade. Sasuke himself thought the same.

So you have two characters (one with centuries of knoledge of the shinobi world and the other the very guy Who created the jutsu) saying they know no one Who can evade the Jutsu.

And again, Kirin WAS NOT EVADED. It was blocked.

@taurusaldebaran:

.

Itachi himself is not faster than Lightning, but the speed of actiavation of the Susano'o is. If someone can Speed Blitz the activation of the Susano'o, he can be said to be Faster than Lightning.

So, answer me this, Itachi doesn't need to see, to think and analyse his position to activate the Susanoo? So your stance is that Susanoo activates on its own and the person doesn't need to make a conscious decision to activate it?

Of course he does.

Do you agree with me that the speed of a thought far surpass the speed one move his body?

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Futureisbest

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I'm going to be honest, the datebooks are your best bets to scale, even the Boruto chapters are dubiously ftl at best.

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SuperDuperBumpe

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I don't think you get it.

You know that Zetsu stated that it takes 0.001s for Kirin to REACH the ground, not that it takes such reaction speed to block it. It means that if the cloud is as high as 5km then the speed of Kirin will turn out to be 14,706 times the speed of sound. Now, imagine blocking it in close range like Itachi did, that will require better speed.

You can't seriously compare something like that with deflecting a bullet that only moves at the speed of sound, the difference between them is almost 15k.

I don't think this makes much sense. Kirin was launched from the sky, it was natural lightning. 1 millisecond is the exact time that it takes for that lightning to reach the ground, where Itachi was. Regardless of how fast the lightning bolt is, we have the exact timeframe that Itachi had to dodge the bolt. And we know it is impossible, as Black Zetsu, who has been around for a very long time, considers it impossible to dodge something in that timeframe. And this appears to check out with the fact that Itachi does not actually dodge the bolt of lightning, but instead reacts by activating Susanoo.

The speed of an object is not the only thing that matters, distance does as well. A real human should be able to dodge a bullet as well given enough distance

From what we know: [Itachi's reaction time as per physically dodging an attack] ≈ [Most mid/high Kage level characters' reaction time as per physically dodging an attack] > 1 millisecond > [Itachi's ability to react to an attack mentally/activate susanoo]

Amaterasu is compared to Kirin I believe at some point, and the Raikage can dodge that, so perhaps the time it takes for the Raikage to dodge an attack physically is sub 1 millisecond

We know characters like Spider-Man can outright dodge within a 2-3 millisecond time frame. Him reacting mentally to something within 1-2 milliseconds seems quite reasonable

This would mean any character slower than the Raikage in reaction time has about top-tier street-level speed in Naruto, or is barely faster

However, perhaps Kishimoto simply did not understand what he wrote down here and imagined his characters to be faster than this. And I don't blame the man, he had a weekly deadline to get a product out in front of millions of people, and this was long enough ago that he couldn't just double-check with AI or something. I am open to this idea

But, that notion would need evidence, which is why I made this post. I'll help those who think Kage-level characters in the Narutoverse are faster than this, one good piece of evidence is Sasuke reacting to Deidara's explosion at an incredibly close distance. That feat is far above street-level. However, one can counter that this Sasuke is slower than Itachi, and Kishimoto likely doesn't know how fast the detonation speed of a C-4 or something like that is. And that's much more believable than saying he didn't understand what he wrote when he said Itachi has a 1/1000 of a second to react. But if one was still going to argue for higher reaction timings, they need more evidence

So I am asking you and any Naruto fan who believes the verse is much faster than the panel I presented in the OP indicates it is, what evidence to you have to believe otherwise?

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TaurusAldebaran

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@superduperbumpe: Well, to be fair, there ARE characters that supras this 0,001s for time reaction.

Let's start stablishing that the activation of one's eye power is faster than a lightning. It seens to be the case with most sharingan abilities.

There are other characters whose time reaction can be scaled to be as high or even higher than that of a Sharingan user.

And finally there are some that exceed even that speed.

No Caption Provided

So, with a consistent scale we can put the top of Shinobi world at about faster than Lightning in reaction.

Or MHS if you like it better.

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TaurusAldebaran

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@superduperbumpe: @superduperbumpe: Another exemple is here, when anotar character react to the Flying Raijin Jutsu, which we stablished to be at least as fast as the speed of activation of the Sharingan, if not faster.

No Caption Provided

And then we have Sasuke, that surpass his reaction speed enough to be worth of praise.

No Caption Provided

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TaurusAldebaran

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@superduperbumpe: @superduperbumpe: And for last, we have Guy performing what can be arguably the fastest feat in the verse.

Not only he scale abole the character that reacted to a Lightning speed jutsu, but he also performed the feat of bending space.

Bending space is a relativistic effect that only happens with speeds negar Light.

No Caption Provided

In my opinion, that puts the Top shinobi of the World at MHS and Guy Alone in Relativistic Speed.

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Xebec

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I'm going to be honest, the datebooks are your best bets to scale, even the Boruto chapters are dubiously ftl at best.

the problem with databooks scaling is that people take hyperbolic / vague statements at face value when those statements have no on-panel feat to match them (eg: the notorious A relativistic lariat statement; it would make no sense for A to be rel/rel+ considering he gets outsped by Naruto, a version of Naruto that's SEVERAL tiers weaker than his EoS self who could barely dodge a SoL attack, which is a dubious feat in itself considering naruto has some level of precog due to sage mode and it's unclear whether he dodged the attack or madara's neck swing etc.)

i'm not saying this is a Naruto problem only, ppl run with vague databook statements all the time (another good example is bleach)

not to mention a lot of these translations are shaky at best and u have to go off of what someone on twitter or reddit says "is the the correct translation" and whatnot

my opinion = fax

ur opinion = creditless

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nope

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RukelnikovFTW

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@taurusaldebaran: The mention in the manga isn't filler, and given its clearly intended to be Tachibana Dosetsu story, the intent is that its a from the sky lightning bolt.

The story goes that during a storm, Dōsetsu was once struck by lightning, but he used his sword to cut the bolt of lightning in half, thereby earning his sword the name Raikiri, which means "Lightning Cutter." This sword was originally called Chidori, meaning "Thousand Birds," due to the sound it made when swung. After the incident with the lightning, the sword's name was changed to Raikiri to reflect its new legendary status.

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ManimalMan

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- Academy gaara and kiba can react to explosions.

- kakashi, itachi, and konohamaru reacting lightning

- Naruto dodging light + all the light speed stuff in the novels

- Naruto crossing the moons shadow in a second

- the chakra cannons beams circling the the earth in seconds

All direct feats without scaling or statements needed.

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TaurusAldebaran

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@taurusaldebaran: The mention in the manga isn't filler, and given its clearly intended to be Tachibana Dosetsu story, the intent is that its a from the sky lightning bolt.

The story goes that during a storm, Dōsetsu was once struck by lightning, but he used his sword to cut the bolt of lightning in half, thereby earning his sword the name Raikiri, which means "Lightning Cutter." This sword was originally called Chidori, meaning "Thousand Birds," due to the sound it made when swung. After the incident with the lightning, the sword's name was changed to Raikiri to reflect its new legendary status.

The mention in the manga is not Filler.

The passage you're refering to is an anime only contend that expand that story and make their own assumptions, therefore a filler.

we have no way to know from informations in the manga if it was a real lightning or not. But if it was, it woukd contradict Black Zetsu's statesment that Lightning is umavoidable. On the other hand, we have seem Kakashi parry a Lightning Jutsu in the fight with Kakuzu.

So the evidence we have points to the Lightning he cut as a teenager being generated by Chakra and not a real Lightning Bolt.

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RukelnikovFTW

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@rukelnikovftw said:

@taurusaldebaran: The mention in the manga isn't filler, and given its clearly intended to be Tachibana Dosetsu story, the intent is that its a from the sky lightning bolt.

The story goes that during a storm, Dōsetsu was once struck by lightning, but he used his sword to cut the bolt of lightning in half, thereby earning his sword the name Raikiri, which means "Lightning Cutter." This sword was originally called Chidori, meaning "Thousand Birds," due to the sound it made when swung. After the incident with the lightning, the sword's name was changed to Raikiri to reflect its new legendary status.

The mention in the manga is not Filler.

The passage you're refering to is an anime only contend that expand that story and make their own assumptions, therefore a filler.

we have no way to know from informations in the manga if it was a real lightning or not. But if it was, it woukd contradict Black Zetsu's statesment that Lightning is umavoidable. On the other hand, we have seem Kakashi parry a Lightning Jutsu in the fight with Kakuzu.

So the evidence we have points to the Lightning he cut as a teenager being generated by Chakra and not a real Lightning Bolt.

?? What I wrote isn't from the anime, its an Edo period legend (~1600-1850), which is clearly the origin for Kakashi's Chidori and Raikiri

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TaurusAldebaran

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@taurusaldebaran said:
@rukelnikovftw said:

@taurusaldebaran: The mention in the manga isn't filler, and given its clearly intended to be Tachibana Dosetsu story, the intent is that its a from the sky lightning bolt.

The story goes that during a storm, Dōsetsu was once struck by lightning, but he used his sword to cut the bolt of lightning in half, thereby earning his sword the name Raikiri, which means "Lightning Cutter." This sword was originally called Chidori, meaning "Thousand Birds," due to the sound it made when swung. After the incident with the lightning, the sword's name was changed to Raikiri to reflect its new legendary status.

The mention in the manga is not Filler.

The passage you're refering to is an anime only contend that expand that story and make their own assumptions, therefore a filler.

we have no way to know from informations in the manga if it was a real lightning or not. But if it was, it woukd contradict Black Zetsu's statesment that Lightning is umavoidable. On the other hand, we have seem Kakashi parry a Lightning Jutsu in the fight with Kakuzu.

So the evidence we have points to the Lightning he cut as a teenager being generated by Chakra and not a real Lightning Bolt.

?? What I wrote isn't from the anime, its an Edo period legend (~1600-1850), which is clearly the origin for Kakashi's Chidori and Raikiri

Then it doesn't matter?

The scene in the anime is filler.

The legend is just a source of inspiration for Kishimoto. Just like he takes inspiration in many other pieces of japanese folklore.

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Shadyyyyyy

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Why did this thread get bumped, meh idc

Kcm Naruto blitzed a guy who cna react to light speed travel even when twice as strong

Shitty Path of Pein reacts to Light grenade

Base mitsuki reacts (very slightly tho) to Light and Sound Bomb

Urashiki perforsm a FTL to MFTL Flying across a constelettion speed feat

Naruto dodges photon laser at 0 chakra while on a bike

Random jonin level fodder in novel is already light speed via technology, Their leader is way faster, proceeds to eat chakra pills that make him ,,Several Magnitudes Faster" and loses to Sakura (This is between Boruto and Naruto shippuden)

Kirin is stated light speed, Omniscient Narrator confirms ITachi can hit Light speed people with genjutsu, even performs a nanosecond feat.

As for more mid speed feats

Kakashi jumping infront of Kakazus lightning bolts and blitzing them by multiple times

Kid sarada in early arcs reacting to Lightning bolts.

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MajesticStar

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Using Zetsu's statement to cap Narutoverse's speed doesn't work, that statement is outdated/retconned.

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Shadyyyyyy

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Using Zetsu's statement to cap Narutoverse's speed doesn't work, that statement is outdated/retconned.

Dont forget its wrong and out of context, actual translation says that itachi cant dodge Kirin because of the circumstances hes in, implying he can dodge it normally , and zetsus just wrong about its speed too

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RukelnikovFTW

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@rukelnikovftw said:
@taurusaldebaran said:
@rukelnikovftw said:

@taurusaldebaran: The mention in the manga isn't filler, and given its clearly intended to be Tachibana Dosetsu story, the intent is that its a from the sky lightning bolt.

The story goes that during a storm, Dōsetsu was once struck by lightning, but he used his sword to cut the bolt of lightning in half, thereby earning his sword the name Raikiri, which means "Lightning Cutter." This sword was originally called Chidori, meaning "Thousand Birds," due to the sound it made when swung. After the incident with the lightning, the sword's name was changed to Raikiri to reflect its new legendary status.

The mention in the manga is not Filler.

The passage you're refering to is an anime only contend that expand that story and make their own assumptions, therefore a filler.

we have no way to know from informations in the manga if it was a real lightning or not. But if it was, it woukd contradict Black Zetsu's statesment that Lightning is umavoidable. On the other hand, we have seem Kakashi parry a Lightning Jutsu in the fight with Kakuzu.

So the evidence we have points to the Lightning he cut as a teenager being generated by Chakra and not a real Lightning Bolt.

?? What I wrote isn't from the anime, its an Edo period legend (~1600-1850), which is clearly the origin for Kakashi's Chidori and Raikiri

Then it doesn't matter?

The scene in the anime is filler.

The legend is just a source of inspiration for Kishimoto. Just like he takes inspiration in many other pieces of japanese folklore.

?? The manga says its a lightning bolt, there no mention of chkra at any point, the story its inspired from was cutting a lightning bolt. You have no argument at all aside from your own headcanon, Kakashi is that fast whether you like it or not.

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MajesticStar

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@shadyyyyyy: I agree with the context part, but can you clarify why Zetsu is wrong about the speed?

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Shadyyyyyy

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#43  Edited By Shadyyyyyy
@majesticstar said:

@shadyyyyyy: I agree with the context part, but can you clarify why Zetsu is wrong about the speed?

oh hes right about the speed of ,,Lightning" but Sasukes Kirin can be faster,Theres a databook statement of Kirins speed that just disagrees outright with zetsu by saying that the speed of Kirin is Lightspeed, which obviously doesnt make sense if its only lightning speed since Lightning speed <<<<<<< Light speed. I meant like Kirins speed doesnt have to be 1:1 with Lightning speed, Zetsu tells us how fast Lightning is, and then Kirin is clearly not normal, so his statement is just sort of saying ,,Lightning is this Fast so sasukes kirin being based on lightning is probably this fast too" But like he can just be wrong about it since hes assuming Kirin = Normal lightning in speed, not saying he is wrong just that it doesnt contradict completely everything if hes wrong

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TaurusAldebaran

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@taurusaldebaran said:
@rukelnikovftw said:
@taurusaldebaran said:
@rukelnikovftw said:

@taurusaldebaran: The mention in the manga isn't filler, and given its clearly intended to be Tachibana Dosetsu story, the intent is that its a from the sky lightning bolt.

The story goes that during a storm, Dōsetsu was once struck by lightning, but he used his sword to cut the bolt of lightning in half, thereby earning his sword the name Raikiri, which means "Lightning Cutter." This sword was originally called Chidori, meaning "Thousand Birds," due to the sound it made when swung. After the incident with the lightning, the sword's name was changed to Raikiri to reflect its new legendary status.

The mention in the manga is not Filler.

The passage you're refering to is an anime only contend that expand that story and make their own assumptions, therefore a filler.

we have no way to know from informations in the manga if it was a real lightning or not. But if it was, it woukd contradict Black Zetsu's statesment that Lightning is umavoidable. On the other hand, we have seem Kakashi parry a Lightning Jutsu in the fight with Kakuzu.

So the evidence we have points to the Lightning he cut as a teenager being generated by Chakra and not a real Lightning Bolt.

?? What I wrote isn't from the anime, its an Edo period legend (~1600-1850), which is clearly the origin for Kakashi's Chidori and Raikiri

Then it doesn't matter?

The scene in the anime is filler.

The legend is just a source of inspiration for Kishimoto. Just like he takes inspiration in many other pieces of japanese folklore.

?? The manga says its a lightning bolt, there no mention of chkra at any point, the story its inspired from was cutting a lightning bolt. You have no argument at all aside from your own headcanon, Kakashi is that fast whether you like it or not.

I have no argumento? Let's see.

My arguments:

1) Black Zetsu's statesment about Lightning being too fast.

2) We never saw the Lightning Kakashi cut. We can't simply guess it's nature.

3) We see Kakashi parrying a chakra generated Lightning, that we know is slower than a real one.

Now, look at your arguments:

1) Scene from a Filler.

2) The original Legend say "Lightning"

It is not me Who is running on headcanon here.

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dogsrus

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#45  Edited By dogsrus
No Caption Provided

kid kakashi

you get the gist

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#47  Edited By dogsrus

it is meant to show case that he has that ability some episodes of filler showcase events that have passed I have seen your argument with majestic I can assume you wont change your mind and Kakashi was also stated to have cuta lightning bolt before it can touch the ground implying or outright stating he cut real lightning

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Gaoron

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#48  Edited By Gaoron

- Cursed Mark Kid Sasuke outsped sound wave attacks

- Kid Sasuke and Kid Lee outsped Gaara's sand that reacted to explosions

- Teen Kakashi cutting a lightning bolt with chidori and sharingan

- Teen Sasuke outsped Deidara's massive explosion

- Sick Itachi reacting to Kirin

- Guy bending space

- Naruto dodging light fang

Those are the best speed feats I can think of.

Low-mid genin would be subsonic.

High genin like Cursed Mark Kid Sasuke would be supersonic for dodging sound wave attacks

Low-mid jounin like Tournament Lee and Sasuke hypersonic for outspeeding explosion timing

High jonin like teen Kakashi, Sasuke and sick Itachi low MHS

Kage tiers like KCM Naruto, Ay, healthy Itachi should be above lightning speed for outspeeding MS Sasuke's perception which should be at least comparable to sick Itachi's.

High kages like Hashirama unquantifiably above that.

And So6P tier relativistic for Guy bending space and Naruto dodging light fang (in anime version at least)

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RukelnikovFTW

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I have no argumento? Let's see.

My arguments:

1) Black Zetsu's statesment about Lightning being too fast.

2) We never saw the Lightning Kakashi cut. We can't simply guess it's nature.

3) We see Kakashi parrying a chakra generated Lightning, that we know is slower than a real one.

Now, look at your arguments:

1) Scene from a Filler.

2) The original Legend say "Lightning"

It is not me Who is running on headcanon here.

1- Black Zetsu statement vs Maito Gai statement

2- We do see it in secondary canon, and secondary canon > your opinion

3- This doesn't contradict anything

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TaurusAldebaran

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@taurusaldebaran said:

I have no argumento? Let's see.

My arguments:

1) Black Zetsu's statesment about Lightning being too fast.

2) We never saw the Lightning Kakashi cut. We can't simply guess it's nature.

3) We see Kakashi parrying a chakra generated Lightning, that we know is slower than a real one.

Now, look at your arguments:

1) Scene from a Filler.

2) The original Legend say "Lightning"

It is not me Who is running on headcanon here.

1- Black Zetsu statement vs Maito Gai statement

2- We do see it in secondary canon, and secondary canon > your opinion

3- This doesn't contradict anything

"Secondary canon"

Bro... stop...