Do you feel slighted

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Prospero_Locke

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With all of the race changing, sexual preference changing, character origin changing, and other storyline changes being made since comics became the "cool thing" with Iron Man 1 and all that, do you feel slighted as a long time reader? Knowing all these changes are for the sake of getting new attention because they are in the spotlight. Thoughts?

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Spider-ManWins

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what the heck

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comicace3

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A little.

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Prospero_Locke

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@wrglfan2814: I am not afraid of change, but it seems like change for the sake of changing something is what happens lately.

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kgb725

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My favorite character is Hulk so you should already know how I feel about change

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Prospero_Locke

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@wrglfan2814: so wally west being changed to black was just because? Instead of making a black flash? Or making Iceman gay after decades of his character being a ladies man? Just because? No. The twins being Inhuman instead of magnetos kids and mutants? Source material is being raped to appeal to new fans in obnoxious ways. Knee jerk storytelling at best

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HopeOnFire

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#9  Edited By HopeOnFire

Character butcheringChange in DC has been happening ever since infinite crisis. My favorite character has been dragged through the mud and then slain since 2006, so I'm now numb towards any change happening in DC. They can go catch on fire and burn for all I care.

However, as a newbie Marvel fan, I like what they've got going on over there. So yeah, I guess it's always the older fans that get the short end of the stick. Maybe its an inevitable cycle?

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hatemalingsia

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No.

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Rpgesus

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I hate the changes but I mean it's hard to argue with good business

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Maddpanda531

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Not particularly, no. Sure, sometimes I'm not happy with changes and sometimes it can come off as a little overbearing, but I think change is a fairly natural (and quite frankly, important) part of comics and I've come to accept it.

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Sternfan99

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@wrglfan2814: so wally west being changed to black was just because? Instead of making a black flash? Or making Iceman gay after decades of his character being a ladies man? Just because? No. The twins being Inhuman instead of magnetos kids and mutants? Source material is being raped to appeal to new fans in obnoxious ways. Knee jerk storytelling at best

^QFT

Retcons and tweaks to accommodate the sliding time scale are one thing, but a gay Iceman?

I'm not a homophobe. I feel gay people deserve to be represented in comics. But why Iceman?

Why not a new character, or an old character without any kind of romantic backstory?

I just don't see the point...

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antithetical

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Monarch_Chronicle

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Il say this. Miles Morales is a good character independent of his race (coming from a black male) and he himself is both an example of what companies should do and an example of why they are not doing just that.

I personally am disappointed with iceman, power girl, wally west change because it was lazy, inconsiderate, and unnecessary. And its going to look even more stupid when they change it back for no decent reason.

I, like most of the comic community, wish they would create new characters to embody these social diversities instead of re-painting an old character or turning a switch and making a character gay, which frankly kinda insinuates being homosexual is a choice when his older self isn't. Is marvel saying that people choice to be gay? or is this saying this iceman is from an alt reality? If the latter that is a pretty cheap way of doing so.

I will however say that I understand what these comic companies are trying to do. I would love to believe Miles Morales would be a popular character even if he wasn't spiderman but I just cant believe that to be true. At a certain level some people are un-comfortable with change itself irregardless of what that change is or if its for the better. So if Miles Morales was just black Peter Parker he would fail and everyone would hate him. But if Miles Morales was a fresh character with all of the charms and depth but none of Spidey (idk lets say someone like Victor Alvarez) he would again fail and be forgotten. (Be honest did you have to look up Victor? see my point?)

Miles only works because he is new (character) and familiar (spiderman) at the same time.

Is my point clear? The way we consume these characters by our vary nature dictates that we want new and yet familiar. In many ways a contradiction, or at least to comic companies, who decided to go with the re-paint look and take back-lash from cb fans who have short memories rather than deal with the social justice of the general public.

So basically, while I am disappointed at how comic book companies are attempting social diversity, I cannot say I dont understand their dilemmas or even fully find them responsible.

Edit: another perfect example is the new Ms Marvel. New character, familiar persona

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RoboShark

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I don't think it matters much.

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acer51

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Yea forced PCness has begun to wear on me not that it doesn't have its benefits, I don't think its that as much as a general lack in creativity though.

You see they only make a change like this, or they usually only make a change like girl Thor or idk....the Silk character or Spider-Gwen, which arn't really PC choices their just kind of lame and unwanted.

I mean Secret Wars? Destroying the Marvel Universe? Why do this Marvel? Why pull a crisis?

That's what I'm mad about their destroying my multiverse, I think the weird PC stuff might be a symptom of a lack of creative writing I don't really care though I'm just bummed TOAA is tearing up my favorite shared universe.

On another note I think Falcon as Captain-America is a really bad idea because Falcon is his own hero and slapping a flag on while Steve takes a break doesn't make him Captain America anymore than it made Bucky, I mean imo only Steve can be Captain America or maybe if he had idk a son or something? Like in that cartoon that went straight to video, but even then I'm not seeing it.

I do like people to stay true to a character and not make any radical changes I'm cool with taking creative liberties but I feel ya Prospero_Locke it seems sometimes changes are made for the sake of diversity or somesuch, Its not that big a deal but it can be obnoxious if it unnecessarily affects one of your favorite characters.

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Sovereign91001

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#19  Edited By Sovereign91001

No, not at all.

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Prospero_Locke

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@monarch_chronicle: I agree with you wholeheartedly. Miles Morales was handled perfectly because he was a new character. It seems people forget that they have the ability to create new people. Instead of wally west, why not make a new person effected by the speed force that is black? I could see a storyline for it now. Why not make a new X-Men struggling with his identity as a mutant and a homosexual front and center in a new team arc? Why not just admit the fact that the twins can't be deemed mutant because of certain movie rights (which we ALL know) and leave the 20ish years of writing in tact?

My issue isnt the end product, it's the route. You promote a new flash that is diverse, I will read it. You take my favorite pasty, freckle ginger flash and change his race for the sake of new sales, I might not be too happy. They have the luxury of being able to pick and choose who they want in the forefront these days. Make new characters. Cross new bridges. Don't burn the old ones.

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Etheral_Dreams

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@wrglfan2814: I am not afraid of change, but it seems like change for the sake of changing something is what happens lately.

QFT.

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Vivide

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disgusted but that is why I pick up other comics by other publishing companies, you peple gave them too much power with your money

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Outside_85

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Some of the changes are stupid, some are just poorly done, others are bad... but at the bottom line, there are a bunch of these changes that were needed in order for the big two to reach new markets and not appear to be marketed only to straight white kids and adults.

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comicace3

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Prospero_Locke

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@vivide:its funny you mention that. I am currently trying to expand my tastes and knowledge to other companies and whatnot. I've always had a thing for the spirit and rocketeer so im trying to read more of that (excited for the new Dynamite series in July) and am branching out as best I can. I also have followed IDW TMNT the whole way too. Any suggestions for someone new at the deep end of the pool?

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Monarch_Chronicle

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jasonhawke

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Vivide

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deactivated-5a04a566e9ae3

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No, I don't feel slighted. These properties don't belong to me and have no obligation to cater to my tastes. Mediums shift, change, and evolve to reflect current times and audiences; embrace it or move on.

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deactivated-5cecb3b554104

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lol The title of this thread reminds me of Johnny Rotten's prophetic words at the end of the Winterland Ballroom show... right before the Sex Pistols split. Anyway, I can over look race, gender, sexual orientation-retcons and swaps if there is a good story involved. If it's just done for marketing ("Let's sell The Defenders to a new demographic by making The Gargoyle gay."), then I sigh and throw up my hands and go see what Image is doing.

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I_Am_Lightning

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deactivated-611928878d365

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If it's done right and not as a publicity stunt, I'm okay with it.

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SupremeHyperion

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Change is good in certain situations. Some characters should not be fundamentally changed while some lower tier characters often benefit from tweeks in their tale.

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deactivated-5cecb3b554104

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@vivide: LOLOLOL! Who ever heard of comic book fans exercising economic agency wisely?

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Gracetrack

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Wait... comic books became "the cool thing" starting with the first Iron Man film?

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judasnixon

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Nope... I just don't care.

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safefruitcake

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Not one bit.

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PeppeyHare

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#38  Edited By PeppeyHare

I like Sam as Cap. I like Miles. I'm cool with the new Thor. I don't care as long as I like the stories. Comic fans will never stop grasping on to whatever they're familiar with so I don't even think a lot of the complaining is something these companies should care about

Also unpopular opinion I'll catch flack for but idc. I think a lot of straight white guys have a hard time understanding perspective. The average little kid doesn't wanna look up to ****ing war machine man. They wanna have a spider-man or a superman. Something they think matters. And no new character could ever reach that level because people don't support new books and characters.

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Vivide

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@neghead: they should, mindless consumerism is bad

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SC

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#40  Edited By SC  Moderator

Well as some of you may know I am a vampire, have been alive for about 400 years, so I was around to see Superman and Batman introduced for the first time and I agree, forcing on to us these… characters with powers for the sake of change? I thought Superman and Batman would be the worst, but no, then came your Flash, Spider-man, Wonder Woman, X-Men, Hulk, blah blah… all these forced "superhero" characters introduced just for the sake of diversity because comics were getting popular with the wars. A man who dresses up… as a Bat? Why? Why not just a man? I'll take my Dick Tracey and be more than happy thank you very much!

I mean… some might say maybe some creators artistic ideas just happen to mean they implement such creative ideas for that basis… and not to get new attention, or impress casuals with diversity or some other "hook" at least not anymore so than creators of the past, but to that I say NO! As I am also a powerful telepath, and all the characters I am fond and familiar with, were created out of sincerity and authenticity, to be the best characters, this I know for fact and all the creative changes that annoy me in recent times are these shifty, dumb face, comic creators trying to force diversity to get that dolla dolla, bill bill, disgusting! I think I am going to go and sleep the next 100 years away and then maybe comics will return to the original and pure state I loved them in! Conan and the Lone Ranger!

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MasterKungFu

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not slighted

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Heatblaze

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#42  Edited By Heatblaze

Nope... I just don't care.

If they make Wonder Woman transgender, I guarantee you would say something.

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judasnixon

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@judasnixon said:

Nope... I just don't care.

If they make Wonder Woman transgender, I guarantee you would say something.

Her being transgender is no worse than the creative team working on her main title now.......

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Mark_Stephen

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#44  Edited By Mark_Stephen

Doesn't really matter how we feel. Old time readers are the season ticket holders, the companies feel that they'll always be there so there is no real reason to cater or try to please them in anyway. They don't go out of their way to antagonize me (though it often seems that way), it's more that the new readers that matter more than the old ones. Also companies go in trends and follow fads and right now the trend is diversity. In a way it's no different from when Evil Kneival was big and they brought out the Ghost Rider or when Kung-Fu was all over the place so they came up with Iron Fist.

I feel more slighted when they come up with stuff like civil war or amazon's attack or when writers really go out of their way to imprint their egos onto the comics. Wonder Woman's new origin and the debasement of the amazons completely turned me off of the character, I simply won't read her again. Same with the new lady Thor or the treatment of the Scarlet Witch and Quicksilver.

But again it doesn't matter what I think if I'm not part of the majority because that's who they want to sell too. I can walk off the top of a building and they'd barely notice. If I ever think otherwise I have to keep saying to myself "You don't matter, never have and never will". It's just like every other part of our society, if you aren't part of the crowd you aren't anything and even when you are part of the crowd you're just another placeholder until the next one comes along. It's ironic that the stories are so much about individuals but the writers/editors/publishers care about the individual about as much as they care about yesterdays lunch.

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deactivated-5cecb3b554104

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@vivide: I concur. Have you ever read Culture Jam by Canadian publisher Kalle Lasn? He is responsible for Adbusters magazine. Anyway, it's a good read and shares several examples of why you are absolutely right.

With regard to comics, though, I think blind consumerism is exactly why the Big 2 have been allowed to sacrifice anything slightly resembling artistic integrity for commercial success for quite some time now. 1) Nostalgic parents will drop by a store and pick up anything with Spider-Man or Superman's face on it because they want their children to share whatever dimly remembered love of comics they once had, but the trap is that the stories that are being published now are too serious, too sophisticated comparatively to the stories of those parents' childhoods. 2) The serious comic collector wants to have all 33 chapters of the big, world-shaking crossover event, with no mind for the content. It's Pokemon mentality--"Gotta catch them all." 3) ...And then there's flash-in-the-pan characters like Carnage, the Red Hulk, or Spider-Gwen. Fans go bananas for the first appearance and buy up appearances to keep up, but then the publisher, trying to capitalize on that success, over saturates their product with that character. The result is that the character is diminished to a joke, and as evidenced in the case of Carnage, writers can't do much with a two-dimensional joke. Don't believe me, readers? Look at the sharp decline in the value of Edge of Spiderverse 2. Dealers at cons were moving it for $120 a pop, and then it was down to $90 and now it's down even further. This is because Marvel has forgotten the most important maxim: quality over quantity. DC has, too.

Image? Not yet. There's only one Saga, only one Sex Criminals. No spin-off books. No gimmicks to sell more. It's not necessary because the stories are just good from the get-go. Other companies are picking up on this paradigm and giving Marvel and DC serious market competition.

The Big 2 are going to die if they don't adapt. I'm already disenfranchised that the heroes of my youth are "units moved", prostitutes bringing home Jim Lee and Joe Quesada money for more baseball caps and hair product. That's the dark side of the cinematic success of comics. DC's frequent reboots have become a trope, and now that Marvel is trying to catch up in that race, all bets are off. Something good needs to come from Convergence and Secret Wars, or this site is going to become a whole lot less superhero-y.

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Vivide

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@neghead: Something good needs to come from Convergence and Secret Wars, or this site is going to become a whole lot less superhero-y.

Not necessarily a bad thing as comics is too big a medium to be tied down to the cape stuff, the current mess is perpetuated by a self sustained ecosystem .

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deactivated-5cecb3b554104

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@vivide: Yes. I suppose my concern is that once the Big 2 are dead and gone, how long will the industry survive without the publicity that Marvel and DC bring with them?

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Ironshinobi88

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I'm not white, so I don't feel slighted when companies do race changes, sexual orientation, gender changes. I can see how my white peers feel slighted. In a way it's their comics after all.

what @peppeyhare said is the truth. New Gay, Minority, Characters are never going to work because the companies are not going to put in all the work to promote them.

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Vivide

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@neghead: Do what Japan does, let the audience cater to the creativity of the writers

@ironshinobi88:

I'm not white, so I don't feel slighted when companies do race changes, sexual orientation, gender changes.

same, asian here.

are you saying that whites can't be gay or transexual?

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Prospero_Locke

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@vivide: @ironshinobi88: well, as a white person I'd like to clarify that I don't get offended because "they took one of my characters" I find it more offensive in my view that you guys get an already established non-black/gay/asian/etc character. It comes across as a halfhearted attempt and sloppy seconds from the industry..