Also, have you read Final Crisis? TR Superman is Superman....Ultraman and Superman were combined to combat Mandrakk and their consciousness awoke in the Thought Robot. Superman, being the stronger willed of the two, took complete control and was the only conscious at play. The Thought Robot itself was powered by a single, undefeatable story of a child rocketed to earth....i.e Superman's story...i.e his story and consciousness are what made TR as powerful as it is, and is what made it TR Superman. You saying that it isn't Superman is the same as saying Piccolo doesn't count as himself since he absorbed Nail on Namek or ZH Hal Jordan isn't a version of Hal since he was infected by Parallax.
@buttersdaman000: i read final crisis, i had no wtf was going on tbh. but anyway, i don't consider tr a version of superman. i don't consider piccolo fused with nail piccolo either. when piccolo fused with nail, he became a new person. the only reason we call him piccolo is because he called himself piccolo. when piccolo fused kami, he was a new person again, he forgot his original name, so he just called himself piccolo. whenever piccolo fuses with someone, he becomes a new person. we only call him piccolo because all the characters call him piccolo. iirc goku wanted call him kamiccolo, but that could be an anime only thing. I don't consider zh hal hal, because he was being controlled by paralax(spelled trhat wrong). Hal was just a host. same with spectre hal, it's just spectre controlling Hal
@buttersdaman000: i read final crisis, i had no wtf was going on tbh. but anyway, i don't consider tr a version of superman. i don't consider piccolo fused with nail piccolo either. when piccolo fused with nail, he became a new person. the only reason we call him piccolo is because he called himself piccolo. when piccolo fused kami, he was a new person again, he forgot his original name, so he just called himself piccolo. whenever piccolo fuses with someone, he becomes a new person. we only call him piccolo because all the characters call him piccolo. iirc goku wanted call him kamiccolo, but that could be an anime only thing. I don't consider zh hal hal, because he was being controlled by paralax(spelled trhat wrong). Hal was just a host. same with spectre hal, it's just spectre controlling Hal
Something tells me you're using this reasoning because you don't like that this version of Superman is vastly superior to Goku, and would stomp Goku after all his amps in DB Super.
@buttersdaman000: i read final crisis, i had no wtf was going on tbh. but anyway, i don't consider tr a version of superman. i don't consider piccolo fused with nail piccolo either. when piccolo fused with nail, he became a new person. the only reason we call him piccolo is because he called himself piccolo. when piccolo fused kami, he was a new person again, he forgot his original name, so he just called himself piccolo. whenever piccolo fuses with someone, he becomes a new person. we only call him piccolo because all the characters call him piccolo. iirc goku wanted call him kamiccolo, but that could be an anime only thing. I don't consider zh hal hal, because he was being controlled by paralax(spelled trhat wrong). Hal was just a host. same with spectre hal, it's just spectre controlling Hal
So if somebody were to have, in a battle thread, "Composite Hal Jordan", you would not consider Zero Hour Hal Jordan because it's not a version of Hal?
@panda_emperorix: What is this regarding lol. This version of Superman existed before DB Super. The OP is upset there's another version of Superman that can defeat Goku and with ease :)
@buttersdaman000: i read final crisis, i had no wtf was going on tbh. but anyway, i don't consider tr a version of superman. i don't consider piccolo fused with nail piccolo either. when piccolo fused with nail, he became a new person. the only reason we call him piccolo is because he called himself piccolo. when piccolo fused kami, he was a new person again, he forgot his original name, so he just called himself piccolo. whenever piccolo fuses with someone, he becomes a new person. we only call him piccolo because all the characters call him piccolo. iirc goku wanted call him kamiccolo, but that could be an anime only thing. I don't consider zh hal hal, because he was being controlled by paralax(spelled trhat wrong). Hal was just a host. same with spectre hal, it's just spectre controlling Hal
Well, you're really in the minority there I think. Thought Robot was just a robot built by the monitors to combat Mandrakk. It had no power or ability on it's own until it's pilot, Superman, came along and put his conscious, body, soul, and story into it. Literally everything that encompasses Superman made Thought Robot as powerful as it was until it became Thought Robot Superman. You're reasoning for not accepting is doesn't make since either because Piccolo outright said he was still piccolo with just Nail and Kami acting as extra minds/power inside his body. Hal being a host does not make him not himself either.
@buttersdaman000: kami and piccolo are two different people, when the fused, they went back to their original form. He forgot his real name, so he just called himself piccolo.
A lot of people don't tr superman. For me, you have be born that character, and grow up to be that character to be a version of said character. Hal dis grow up to be zh hal, he was just invaded by Parallax
Edit : no he didn't, here is what piccolo said after he fused with kami "No longer am I Kami or Piccolo. I am the Namek who has long since forgotten his name"
Edit: before they fused, the original form of kami and piccolo was just referred to as thr nameless namekian.
It's got an S on its chest and looks like a jackass for a reason. If it wanted to be anything else it would have. But its superman cause that's what it was created to be. And they never technically gave it it's own identity, so whether it's an alternate universe or nah I consider him another version of superman
@buttersdaman000: kami and piccolo are two different people, when the fused, they went back to their original form. He forgot his real name, so he just called himself piccolo.
A lot of people don't tr superman. For me, you have be born that character, and grow up to be that character to be a version of said character. Hal dis grow up to be zh hal, he was just invaded by Parallax
Edit : no he didn't, here is what piccolo said after he fused with kami "No longer am I Kami or Piccolo. I am the Namek who has long since forgotten his name"
Edit: before they fused, the original form of kami and piccolo was just referred to as thr nameless namekian.
He still called himself Piccolo after he fused with Nail.
Then by that logic you just contradicted yourself. TR Superman is literally the story of Superman, mind, body, and soul, culminated into one being. He was born himself and grew up to be himself i.e his story represented by the Thought Robot to form TR Superman.
Wasn't Thought Robot formed from 2 versions of Superman, making a hero that was the VERY IDEA of Superman? I thought the point was that he was fighting a conceptual enemy so he had to fight it as a concept himself.
I wouldn't call it a "version", it's the canon Superman we all know but with a temporary power boost. A version is a counterpart from a different universe.
@buttersdaman000: i read final crisis, i had no wtf was going on tbh. but anyway, i don't consider tr a version of superman. i don't consider piccolo fused with nail piccolo either. when piccolo fused with nail, he became a new person. the only reason we call him piccolo is because he called himself piccolo. when piccolo fused kami, he was a new person again, he forgot his original name, so he just called himself piccolo. whenever piccolo fuses with someone, he becomes a new person. we only call him piccolo because all the characters call him piccolo. iirc goku wanted call him kamiccolo, but that could be an anime only thing. I don't consider zh hal hal, because he was being controlled by paralax(spelled trhat wrong). Hal was just a host. same with spectre hal, it's just spectre controlling Hal
Something tells me you're using this reasoning because you don't like that this version of Superman is vastly superior to Goku, and would stomp Goku after all his amps in DB Super.
@ryubh: Meaning Superman needed help in obtaining this "temporary power"
Where as Goku fully obsorbed the power of God into his base form. Making it part of him permanently :)
I know OT, but this was in continuation from the thread in DB universe xD
.....Goku had help achieving the form in the first place.....whether or not he absorbed it afterwards is dependent on the fact that he first achieved the form in virtually the same way Superman became TR Superman. And, if we're getting technical, TR Superman was always part of Superman in some way, shape or form. The TR is just a conduit for his story, and his story is what power it. As Mandrakk grows stronger, TR Superman grows stronger to defeat it i.e the story of the hero who triumphs over evil. Essentially, TR Superman is DB Superman in canon form....but TR does have limits (The Overmoniter/writer)
@buttersdaman000: Even if Goku did, we still have Vegeta to debate with since they are around the same strength and he didn't need the ritual :)
Ok...Vegeta is still irrelevant here. I'm just asking, based on your response, why do you still consider SSGSS Goku a version of himself if he did not achieve the power by himself??
@buttersdaman000: Well he was still able to attain it by himself since he's able to use the power on his own. Essentially he couldn't have gotten that form without having learning super saiyan first.
@buttersdaman000: Well he was still able to attain it by himself since he's able to use the power on his own. Essentially he couldn't have gotten that form without having learning super saiyan first.
@buttersdaman000: It goes both ways. He didn't get god ki on his own but he did learn super saiyan on his own. One of those he had to learn in order to become a ssgss.
@buttersdaman000: It goes both ways. He didn't get god ki on his own but he did learn super saiyan on his own. One of those he had to learn in order to become a ssgss.
No, it really only goes one way. He didn't achieve the god ki on his own. Anything that happens afterwards is dependent on that fact alone.
@buttersdaman000: it's the same thing with nail, just because he called himself Piccolo, doesn't mean he was still piccolo. If Kami + Piccolo = New Person, why wouldn't Nail + Piccolo = new person.
Yes. Why wouldn't it be? When people say composite they usually mean every incarnation of that character. Posses, wielding a weapon, new powers, etc...
@buttersdaman000: it's the same thing with nail, just because he called himself Piccolo, doesn't mean he was still piccolo. If Kami + Piccolo = New Person, why wouldn't Nail + Piccolo = new person.
Because he was still Piccolo in the show regardless of your logic......the instance with Kami is different since they were a split being to begin with becoming one again, hence Piccolo being Piccolo by name mostly. It's not the same with Nail. Piccolo absorbed Nail and was still completely himself. You are literally the first and only person I know to ever argue otherwise.
And as far as TR Superman goes, for all intents and purposes it is Superman. You should read final crisis more carefully.
Thought Robot isn't a different version of Superman, it's just Superman (post-crisis) piloting a robot built by the monitors
This. That's why I don't consider Thought Robot Superman. It's just a Robot,Mech built for Superman and Ultraman to use.
That had no power until Superman's consciousness and story powered it. Ultramar was just used for a high meta concept of polar opposites or something like that. He wasn't involved in the TR at all.
Maybe. Same as TTGL or STTGL are "thought robots" but still versions of Gurren Lagann. The soul is Superman and Ultraman combined though, so maybe not strictly only Superman.
@buttersdaman000 fairly certain Ultraman was powering TR too... I will re-read.
Edit: Having done so, Superman and Ultraman were fighting. They were opposites. When they connected they released a ton of energy. Adam (Blue Superman) harnessed this energy by "fus(ing) symmetries" and broadcasted it to the TR as Superman's consciousness. No mention of what happened to Ultraman.
Regardless, Superman could never power the TR without the combined efforts of at least 3 versions of himself from different universes.
And this scan insists Ultraman is present with TR Supes too.
Actually you're just straight up wrong man. Sorry.
Maybe. Same as TTGL or STTGL are "thought robots" but still versions of Gurren Lagann. The soul is Superman and Ultraman combined though, so maybe not strictly only Superman.
@buttersdaman000 fairly certain Ultraman was powering TR too... I will re-read.
Nah, Captain Adam fused the symmetries of Ultraman and Superman in order to activate the TR, but as he did he specifically said "only Superman can save us". Furthermore it was Superman narrating that whole fight and Mandrakk only called him Superman, not Superman and Ultraman. The only reference to Ultraman after they fused symmetries was Superman commenting on how he could hear his voice somewhere inside him
@buttersdaman000: Sorry man you're just wrong. This is after they defeat Mandrakk together.
Seems Superman was just the dominant personality or something silly.
How am I wrong? I never said Ultraman wasn't there.....even in my last post I mentioned the only reference to Ultraman in that fight was his voice somewhere inside Superman....so no....I literally have the comic in my hand right now.
Captain Adam combined the two symmetries --> said "Superman" was the only one who could save them
Superman was the only narrative during the whole fight
Mandrakk referred to his enemy as Superman
Superman was in complete control of the TR
The TR had Superman's symbol
Superman says HIS reason to BE is to be THERE to stop Mandrakk
TR was powered by Superman's story i.e child rocketed to earth. In Final Crisis, this is NOT Ultramans story since it's the version of the character created by Grant Morrison. His origin is vastly different from his n52 and pre-crisis counterparts because he was NOT kryptonian originally.
And this scan insists Ultraman is present with TR Supes too.
Actually you're just straight up wrong man. Sorry.
Why are you saying sorry? I've maintained from the beginning that Ultraman was there. You're getting confused with him being there equating to him having any contribution to the fight or TR's power. Again, Captain Adam combined their symmetries to activate the TR but Superman was the one who powered it and the one who controlled it. I take it you have the comic, so why don't you post the page before where Zillo Villa says Superman's story was created to be an unstoppable force, and the rest of the scan where Superman says "The stronger he becomes, the stronger I become" (which relates back to his story). Then, while you're at it, post the pages preceding that one where everybody only refers to TR Superman as SUPERMAN. As I said before, Ultraman was there to be the symmetry/duality/meta concept that activated the TR and that's it. His story, nor his will was actually powerful enough to pilot/power it. Only SUPERMANS was.
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