[Discussion] Please explain to me some things about Raven (Teen Titans)

Hello everyone! So as the title says I would love you to please clear some things up for me about Raven from the Teen Titans. My knowledge of her is pretty basic since I first knew about her because of the TV show (apparently many of us were introduce to them because of this) and recently I decided to pick up the latest comics involving her and to be honest, I really like this approach but I've heard mixed reactions from some of my friends and other discussion boards only because they are comparing the new version with the comics from 1980's.

Well, I decided to venture and try to read the most relevant stories from The New Teen Titans and other comics and oh boy I got confused with a lot of stuff, specially trying to follow what kind of abilities before and after Trigon has influence over her, she has died like 2 or 3, her soul-self has speed of Mach 32 (WTF?) Red Raven and White Raven... You get the idea.

Mainly I would like to know the following:

1. What is the deal with her powers? As far as I know her emotions is what fuel how powerful she can be, but this changes a lot depending if Trigon has influence over her. Is she stronger if she lets her anger consume her or is she more powerful if she can tap to all her emotions?

2. Have her powers been retcon at any moment? She has died a few times but she somehow is revived by someone. Apparently she can only use certain powers if she has any connection to Trigon, is that true? (Like the Golden Soul Raven, what’s up with that?)

3. What is the difference between Red Raven and White Raven? Which one supposedly is the most powerful?

4. Is the Raven from 1980 the same Raven before New 52?

I think that’s what I got in my mind that is very confusing about the character. Is kind of interesting how it has evolved into and how the cartoon now is now influencing more with the modern Raven since most people recognize her due to the show.

@lancer0127:

As far as I get it, there are two things (beside the plot) that hold her most of the time to use her full powers.

One is that she is usually the "good guy" (well, girl) and especially in her first incarnation she was a pacifist (less so after reborns but still). So she was mostly using her powers to heal people or to contain or capture them, not for doing any real harm.

The other reason is that she is half demon and have a dark or evil side that she constantly try to keep under control. On top of that, Trigon can influence her or even control her through that side, as she use same type of dark and mystical powers inherited from him. So she try not to tap too much in her powers because she will be in danger to fall to the dark side.

She become extremely powerful if she use all that potential but we get just glimpses and statements of that. As white Raven (in comics, not sure what Red Raven you mean?) eliberated from Trigon connection and influence and more free to use her full potential without worries she goes as far as having an omniversal empathy feat, or being able to contain and control to her needs an universe of souls.

She might come close to that power levels even as "evil Raven" when Trigon was too weakened to be able to have any control of her, when she had casually take down her brothers who had get from Trigon enough power to destroy the universe, on top of their already great powers. She doesn't even feel the need to take that power for her but she intended to transfer it into the Titans and transform them in her evil companions and servants.

So basically the more she tap into her powers the more of her dark side start to manifest and the harder is for her to control it. She might control them without going evil if there isn't Trigon trying to take control over her, something that she also constantly fight.

Or she can go full on and use them with the risk of allowing her dark demonic side taking control, which can also potentially lead to Trigon taking control of her (but in later incarnations is hinted that this is not necessary a sure thing anymore).

@totu: That is actually really interesting. By Red Raven I meant the Evil Raven. I think there is a story arc where she turned red again ad is trying to take over the world but her good side is hidden in Starfire and tries to take over her own self later on.

I do have to ask, is the same Raven from the 1980's the same one before New 52? Was her back story or power ever retcon at any point?

@lancer0127: Ah, I wasn't sure what Red Raven you mean. Afaik its the same Raven with the same set of powers, however she changed a bit her personality after ones of those deaths and rebirths she had (also changed her age, one of the stupidest ideas in my opinion, and not just mine) so she might use those powers in different ways or levels.

First time she was quite pacifist and secluded, but she became more agressive or using more freely some powers over time, including ofensively. Or, in the instance you mention, she was straight evil. In fact she retained her same powers even after her physical body was killed, her soul had kept the same powers, even more freely to use them when her father influence was gone (she was still around as a spirit or soul as she is not welcomed to Heaven and neither was she bothered by any from hell realms)

I think she reborn by herself back then (the red Raven you said, don't remember now how she did it as white Raven), making that new body, and in some instance she was reborn by the Brother Blood and his cult of Trigon worshipers, using some ancient magic book of Trigon iirc.

Her backstory never changed, I think even n52 Raven have the same backstory, with just some details changed but which didn't changed the general story (her mother Arella met Trigon in some way or another, and gave birth to Raven, she is raised in Azarath dimension, her powers are sort of the same kind, maybe more focus on some than others, stuffs like that).

The Rebirth seem to reconcile n52 with pre n52 eras and probably we'll get more of the actual back story in her new solo series that will start not long from now, but I don't think it will change much, maybe just come with new or better details

@totu: What about her powers after 2003? I just finished reading that long run and her powers are kidna different. Like, her soul self now is more of a construct, her empath powers are weaker and she doesn't use a lot of her potential until the end which is really weird. I did notice Trigon is no longer in the picture so I'll assume she lost part of that power up.

Hell, even Dr. Freaking Light was able to defeat her with no problem. Who else has defeated her or has she even won by herself?

@lancer0127:

Trigon is back in n52 and apparently will be the big bad in her new solo series

Her power levels fluctuates according to the plot. If the plot requires that someone looks stronger or prevail, she won't use her powers for some reason, or her powers will be as low as the plot requires so she lose.

Otherwise I suppose she will be too overpowered and end the plot right away. Theoretically she can simply take over the world and make everyone comply. In her kinda evil future self (Titans of Tomorrow story) she simply drained of emotions everyone in more than half of America and make them do whatever she wished. Another time she easily restrained Superman with her magic, was almost about to kill him actually.

As White Raven she rather easily contained and controled an entire universe of souls or summoned emotions from everyone who live, from the entire omniverse, filter through them and find a single person she was looking for. As evil Raven she casually oneshotted her brothers (who had taken from Trigon enough power to destroy Raven, her world and the universe) and didn't seem to have a use for that power for herself, she just wanted to transfer it into the Titans to transform them in her evil companions and servants to rule the world at her side.

This means she should be beyond or above those universal power levels.

Then, as you saw, she lose to some she shouldn't have to normally. But in her "regular" state she also use just fractions of the powers and abilities she can use when don't hold back (as White or Red as you said).

1. The cartoon version of her works like that, the more she feels the more power she can let out. Comics never explained them to work in that manner. What does happen is that she simply has a very tight control over what she can allow herself to do. In the original NTT books there was a connection between Raven feeling heightened emotional states of herself and others, along with getting exposed to trauma and violence was constantly pushing her towards her father. If she went under from the exposure then another Raven would emerge that embraced it all and did whatever suited her, since this was her more demonic self, it would usually be quite bad for her opponents (she doesn't always change color). At other times she would essentially just freak out and collapse to regain control of herself.

2. When she was reborn around 2003 in Geoff Johns' Teen Titans, her powers got a bit of a revamp, among other things making her able to fly, perform magic spells and such. Also the restrictions on her abilities about how much she can do safely seemed to have loosened at bit. I wont say there were powers she could only use when connected with Trigon, since thats never been proven, its just more of a case of Raven not wanting to use certain powers normally.
The Golden Spirit on the other hand, thats basically Raven after she had died and been purified of her connection with Trigon.

3. Again it comes down to her white-phase simply being free to do more than she could before, demon Raven has no compunction about using power for whatever she wants. So I'd say they are equally as powerful, but demon Raven is more likely to show it. And ofc it also depends on what her emotional state:

4. Yes. Early in the 1990'ties, Raven had actually died, but her dark spirit had lived on and found a host that looked like herself. The Golden Spirit Raven was split from her evil version, by being implanted within Starfire. The conclusion of the story ended with evil Raven being more than dead and Golden Spirit Raven free. Later on in 2003, she was resurrected by a new, younger, Brother Blood to be his bride, shaving several years off her physical appearance and sort of 're-poisoned' with Trigon's taint because the body she was given had been made up of blood donations of Blood's followers, who were Trigon-worshippers.

@outside_85 said:

@lancer0127 said:

Hello everyone! So as the title says I would love you to please clear some things up for me about Raven from the Teen Titans. My knowledge of her is pretty basic since I first knew about her because of the TV show (apparently many of us were introduce to them because of this) and recently I decided to pick up the latest comics involving her and to be honest, I really like this approach but I've heard mixed reactions from some of my friends and other discussion boards only because they are comparing the new version with the comics from 1980's.

Well, I decided to venture and try to read the most relevant stories from The New Teen Titans and other comics and oh boy I got confused with a lot of stuff, specially trying to follow what kind of abilities before and after Trigon has influence over her, she has died like 2 or 3, her soul-self has speed of Mach 32 (WTF?) Red Raven and White Raven... You get the idea.

Mainly I would like to know the following:

1. What is the deal with her powers? As far as I know her emotions is what fuel how powerful she can be, but this changes a lot depending if Trigon has influence over her. Is she stronger if she lets her anger consume her or is she more powerful if she can tap to all her emotions?

2. Have her powers been retcon at any moment? She has died a few times but she somehow is revived by someone. Apparently she can only use certain powers if she has any connection to Trigon, is that true? (Like the Golden Soul Raven, what’s up with that?)

3. What is the difference between Red Raven and White Raven? Which one supposedly is the most powerful?

4. Is the Raven from 1980 the same Raven before New 52?

I think that’s what I got in my mind that is very confusing about the character. Is kind of interesting how it has evolved into and how the cartoon now is now influencing more with the modern Raven since most people recognize her due to the show.

1. The cartoon version of her works like that, the more she feels the more power she can let out. Comics never explained them to work in that manner. What does happen is that she simply has a very tight control over what she can allow herself to do. In the original NTT books there was a connection between Raven feeling heightened emotional states of herself and others, along with getting exposed to trauma and violence was constantly pushing her towards her father. If she went under from the exposure then another Raven would emerge that embraced it all and did whatever suited her, since this was her more demonic self, it would usually be quite bad for her opponents (she doesn't always change color). At other times she would essentially just freak out and collapse to regain control of herself.

2. When she was reborn around 2003 in Geoff Johns' Teen Titans, her powers got a bit of a revamp, among other things making her able to fly, perform magic spells and such. Also the restrictions on her abilities about how much she can do safely seemed to have loosened at bit. I wont say there were powers she could only use when connected with Trigon, since thats never been proven, its just more of a case of Raven not wanting to use certain powers normally.

The Golden Spirit on the other hand, thats basically Raven after she had died and been purified of her connection with Trigon.

3. Again it comes down to her white-phase simply being free to do more than she could before, demon Raven has no compunction about using power for whatever she wants. So I'd say they are equally as powerful, but demon Raven is more likely to show it. And ofc it also depends on what her emotional state:

4. Yes. Early in the 1990'ties, Raven had actually died, but her dark spirit had lived on and found a host that looked like herself. The Golden Spirit Raven was split from her evil version, by being implanted within Starfire. The conclusion of the story ended with evil Raven being more than dead and Golden Spirit Raven free. Later on in 2003, she was resurrected by a new, younger, Brother Blood to be his bride, shaving several years off her physical appearance and sort of 're-poisoned' with Trigon's taint because the body she was given had been made up of blood donations of Blood's followers, who were Trigon-worshippers.

It does clear a lot of questions I had about the character, thansk! Looking into some more recent comics it seems that even good emotions can overwhelm her, does any kind of emotions can overwhelm her? I know if someone has too much hate or bad energy (or being really insane) she can barely get close to the person. If she decided to take away the happiness from someone but this person has too much happiness or good vibes, would that affect her? Does she have like a limit??? Because it would be hilarious that she just goes full happy mode just by absorbing the Care Bare Stare hahahaha.

@lancer0127: Technically it is all emotions that are dangerous to her, but stuff like anger is just particularly bad. As for herself, she is not directly influenced by what emotion she is feeling or manipulating. It's kinda like if she's a kind of emotional furnace where she shovels emotion in and slowly burn them away when she meditates, but in the old comics she couldn't get rid of all of it, so there was always a kind of hidden timer on when her other self might break out.

Regarding her limits... that's kinda depending on when or what the writer wants her to have one. Johns for instance had her no-sweat devour the heightened feelings of an agitated mob, her dark future self had consumed the emotions of most of America... and later on she's unable to put down Dr. Light who just got his brain back.

@outside_85: Yeah that Dr. Light arc went dark... *shivers*

Has there been a comic were she has actually eaten someone's happiness? Because I have seen one issue were she did had so many bad emotions that before Trigon got control over her she use her powers to cure a little girl with what it seems is cancer. Which is kinda badass but at the same time I have so many questions. To be fair she has said she cannot bring someones limbs or missing organs.

@lancer0127: By accident yes, she has actually. Again back with her being reborn under Johns there was a period of time where she wasn't entirely in control of her powers, meaning that she at one point left Cassandra Sandmark numb for several days and later on was said to 'kill the room' whenever she entered it.

I am not sure if it was cancer, but Raven's limit has always been fatal injuries, she can't (normally) heal those because she takes the injuries herself... so a fatal wound on someone else would be a fatal wound for her as well.

@outside_85: Is interesting to see she actually has a limit and cannot just eat everyone's emotions with no repercussions to her psyche. Also is weird to see that supposedly she could put the fear of the world on someone but she never does that against any mayor villains, she seems so powerful that at anytime she could just disable anyone and just move on. Man, is frustrating to see how much this character can do but just is never shown.

Speaking of which, is there a real reason she doesn't use her emphatic powers to stop many major villains? Like canonly? Those people with strong will would not be affected as easily as grunts or normal people?

@lancer0127: I maintain it's a personality thing, kinda like Superman, they can hit the villains really hard if they want to, but there are dire consequences of doing so they are not comfortable with. Raven has the added hazard of pretty much all of her powers are somehow linked to her father and using them even a little bit is goading her towards him and tapping into more power than what might be needed is more risk than worth it. Like very early on in NTT, Raven was trying to maintain the fact that she was a pacifist, she'd direct the others around, but she wouldn't take any part in the fighting itself, which irked Robin quite a bit.