Debunking The Hellbat Wank - Part I

It seems as if the Hellbat wank is never ending...They say Hellbat>>>Superman...Let's try and debunk this stupid notion.

One of the most absurd claims made by Hellbat wankers is that 'Hellbat >>> Superman'. Their reasoning behind this is even more hideous.

According to them Hellbat was able to move Darkseidwhereas Superman couldn't. The same Superman who,

• Bench pressed the weight of earth for five days straight and,
• Moved Brainiac's ginormous mothership (which looked roughly 20 times the size of Earth) along with Martian Manhunter.

Now let's debunk this ridiculous illogical claim. For one thing, Hellbat wasn't the first person to move New 52/Rebirth aka Post Flashpoint Darkseid.

Power Girl of Earth 2 had the pleasure of doing it, going as far as to punch him in the face through the Omega Beams, poke his eye and even draw alot of blood. If you're not blind, you can see that Darkseid was clearly moved by Power Girl. These scans are from Earth-2 World's End Issues 25 and 26.

Anyone who's familiar with Earth-2 storylines surrounding Power Girl knows that Power Girl is consistently portrayed as a upper end mid-tier. She's roughly on par with New 52 Wonder Woman I'd say. Speaking of Wonder Woman,

These two scans are from Wonder Woman Vol. 5 #44 from Rebirth continuity. Although I do see Diana(after Rebirth) as Power Girl's superior by a decent margin, neither of them possess planetary level strength or high tier striking power( just compare WW's and PG's striking power with Superman, Thor, Hulk and you'll see a clear distinction) yet you can see with your own naked eyes, Wonder Woman drawing blood from Darkseid multiple times. Wait !!! It doesn't stop there.

The first from these 2 scans is from the same Wonder Woman #44 and as you can see, Wonder Woman manages to bring Darkseid down to his knees with her blows (Impressive feat for Diana btw). In the second scan from Wonder Woman Vol. 5 #45 Wonder Woman manages to break one of his fingers without struggling so hard.

And how can we forget this one from Justice League Odyssey #12.

Jessica Cruz with 2% charge of her Power Ring manages to draw blood with a strike and Darkseid looks visibly hurt. This is right after Darkseid restored his powers to what he used to be; simply put, he gained full power. Let's not pretend Jessica is a high/herald tier lantern with notable striking power(for example Pre-52 Hal Jordan & Pre-52 Kyle Rayner had some impressive striking feats).

Likewise, people without planetary level strength or high tier striking power has managed to draw blood from, inflict noticeable damage to and move Post-Flashpoint Darkseid. All the characters mentioned above have stats below New 52 Superman (they have no planet moving and earth shaking power) Simply, you don't have to have Superman level stats to move and hurt Darkseid so using the instance of Hellbat knocking back Darkseid to prove Hellbat>>Superman is blatantly incorrect.

Not to mention how conveniently these Hellbat wankers left out context regarding the whole Superman-couldn't-move-Darkseid. For one thing, if you did read Justice League issues 4,5 & 6 you may already know that Darkseid unleashed a huge AOE attack that one-shotted everyone except Flash and Superman (Superman was heavily affected though).

And right after he got back up, Darkseid launched homing Omega Beams after Superman and Barry and,

Although Barry was able to phase through some Parademons to escape from the beams, Superman was one-shotted clean and clear and,

Was tortured and experimented on by Darkseid's lackeys.

Hence, Superman was weakened when he later on matched his strength with Darkseid near the boom-tube, so using this instance as evidence to claim Hellbat>>>Superman is again incorrect and shows how hypocritical Hellbat wankers are. Besides, Superman was still able to draw blood from Darkseid with a punch.

Not to mention that it was stated in a hand book that Darkseid's power is only rivaled by the likes of Superman. Not Wonder Woman, not Aquaman, not this rookie lantern Hal. Superman was the only earth bound being that has comparable stats to Darkseid.

So, it's not my personal opinion, it's what the handbook says and from the feats I've posted above, the handbook's statement and feats do match with each other for some extent.

Now now now, let's see how Hellbat fared up against Darkseid. Rather than posting favored cropped parts(like Batwankers do) I'll post the entire fight.

This scan is from Batman & Robin Vol.2 #36. Batman makes his intention clear. His goal is to draw Darkseid's attention. Because Darkseid's Omega energy absorbed and channeled through the Chaos Shard was the only way Damian Wayne could be revived. The Chaos Shard has massive energy absorption capabilities, being powerful enough to absorb planetary life forces rather easily when channeled through the Chaos Cannon. It also has some kind of wish-granting capability.

This is the beginning of their fight. The fight starts in Batman & Robin Vol.2 #37. After Batman BFRs Kalibak using a Boom Tube, Darkseid grabs and crushes the Mother Box (Boom Tube remote lol). And then Batman starts with a blow that staggers Darkseid. The red color glowing near Darkseid's eye isn't blood it's his Omega Energy that glows within his eyes and occasionally comes out like vapor/heat. Compare this with the scans I posted before which included Power Girl and Wonder Woman and you'll notice a difference between "that blood"and this "supposed blood".

This is the next page, right after the first blow Hellbat delivered. This is a page those Hellbat Wankers willingly omit. Darkseid is ragdolling the Hellbat and the almighty Hellbat is having alot of trouble. Its all on panel people.

The bullying continues. Darkseid keeps on ragdolling the Hellbat and hurls it into the Chaos Cannon's fuel chamber, causing Damien's sarcophagus to slip out of it and fall into the void. Batman however quickly manages to secure it.

LMFAO....There's one word to describe this scan..Curbstomping XD. Just right after Batman secured the Chaos Shard, Darkseid curbs him into the ground and shows off some classic domestic violence.

He discovers that Batman has a Chaos Shard in his possession. Darkseid then proceeds to tear off the wings effortlessly.

Batman, being his usual smart self, uses a vocal code to disperse the wings which are made of a nanoparticle mesh into a swarm of Bats to distract Darkseid and reforms the wings.

And manages to stagger(Stagger is the key word) Darkseid with a punch but immediately gets bearhugged.

Here, we debunk another intentional false statement Hellbat wankers make. They say New 52 Superman coudn't break free from the bearhug of a already battered Darkseid but Hellbat could. But as you can see with your own eyes, Hellbat didn't break free of Darkseid's bearhug. He punched Darkseid in the face which only staggered Darkseid, and Darkseid then punched him away. Hellbat(as you can see on panel) didn't break the grip, rather Darkseid punched him out.

As you can see, Darkseid himself is surprised by the fact that Hellbat wasn't destroyed. However, the context is right in front of you. Due to the vast energy absorption capabilities of, the Chaos Shard drew the Omega Beams like a magnet draws in nearby metals. So it's evident that without the Chaos Shard, the Hellbat can be one-shotted by Omega Beams.

This is the only time Batman managed to move Darkseid (drop him on his ass). Non of the punches he delivered before threw Darkseid off balance (they only staggered him with minor discomfort) but its his Central Battery Blast that managed to do it. I've seen people claiming that the Central Battery Blast was powered up by the Omega energy absorbed by the shard but I won't go on to that depth because it would make me look like a lowballer.

And the final scan, Batman flies off and Darkseid is back up on his feet. He didn't seem to care at all.

So we witnessed with our own naked eyes the full fight between the Hellbat and Darkseid with a detailed description as to what's happening on panel. And we saw several other fights of Darkseid compared with the one against Hellbat. Certain things were evident.

• Power Girl was able to not only move Darkseid but inflict visible damage to his eye and even drew blood. Yet she isn't on the same ballpark of New 52 Superman by consistent feats.
• Wonder Woman (Rebirth) was able to draw blood from Darkseid on several occasions and managed to break one of his fingers and even brought him down to his knees with her blows. Again, she isn't on Superman's ballpark by consistent feats.
• Superman was weakened (by torture and experiments on him by Parademons) when he matched strength with Darkseid and Darkseid was quite battered as well. However, if you have carefully analyzed the strength feats of New 52 Superman and compared them with that of Wonder Woman, Aquaman, Green Lantern and Power Girl, I assure you, there is a huge gap..Clarke was portayed massively stronger than other leaguers during New 52 continuity. Just go through some of their respect threads and see the massive strength gap I insist here. Also mind the handbook statement.
• A character need not be on New 52 Superman's ballpark to stagger/hurt/draw blood/move Darkseid.
• Whereas Superman drew blood from Darkseid with a punch, all Hellbat did was stagger Darkseid a few times without drawing a single drop of blood. Throughout most of their fight, Darkseid was effortlessly manhandling Hellbat and Darkseid was far from bloodlusted. He was monologuing throughout the entire fight because he was confident about how inferior Hellbat is to him. And Hellbat didn't break free from his grip, rather got punched away by Darkseid. It's the final Central Blast that managed to drop Darkseid on the ground but even then, Darkseid was far from beaten. His final expression of letting Hellbat walk away clearly proves that Darkseid wasn't going all out against Hellbat.
• Omega Beams can certainly one-shot the Hellbat unlike Superman who took an AOE and an Omega Beam without getting totally wrecked but only incapacitated. Thanks to the energy absorption ability of the Chaos Shard, the Omega Beams were automatically drawn into the shard rather than hitting Batman. Also this doesn't give Hellbat a reaction timing feat because, when he could have used a straight or wide beam of Omega effect, Darkseid used totally unnecessary twisting and bending beams (plot armor) and due to that Bruce was able to get the shard on guard in time.
• Having fought an army of Parademons, and Kalibak is no excuse for the under-performance of Hellbat against Darkseid because, most people will agree that Superman would've walked over them rather easily and then fared off much better against Darkseid as well.
• Superman, Power Girl and Wonder Woman ; all of them did much better than the Hellbat and they did so when Darkseid wasn't fooling around taking it easy.

As such, using the Darkseid incident to prove Hellbat>>>Superman is blatantly incorrect. I'll be back with part II in which I will address in detail about Hellbat vs Eradicator instance.

@noone301994@takenstew22@lilbroomstick@underfire47

some of these are blatantly out of context...rebirth darkseid wasn't at full power nor can you use these showings for mazahs as showings for uxas

The idea behind this thread has already been done.

That, and Hellbat doesn't really need a huge debunk thread when you can just read the source material.

@indominus:

@professorrespect:

My intention was to debunk the notion spread by Batwankers that Hellbat>>>Superman by taking particular feats of Superman out of context and then using favored parts of the fight between Hellbat and Darkseid (cropped out parts) to support their argument. After I finish addressing the fights of Hellbat vs Eradicator and Hellbat vs A demon who stomped Etrigan, You'll get what I'm trying to say. I'll tag you for part 2 of this if you want :)

@king-ragnar:

I know lol but some users haven't still given up the Hellbat wankfest and they keep using some out of context, favored cropped out scans and some mental gymnastics to support their argument.

@necrogod: you're using different host bodies possessed by the spirit of darkseid and combining them into one individual and falsely unifying their durability as one.

uxas =/= darkseid =/= superwoman's body =/= any host body that has received the omega effect

@indominus:

@indominus said:

@necrogod: you're using different host bodies possessed by the spirit of darkseid and combining them into one individual and falsely unifying their durability as one.

Darkseid born inside Alexander Luthor Jr is considered as Darkseid because,

• Essentially he started growing in a new body
• He didn't possess the child .He was born inside that new body and he grew as Darkseid and not as Alexander Luthor Jr.
• When he was growing, he didn't have the appearance of Luthor Jr ; he took Darkseid's appearance.When he grew up to his full form adult version, he didn't look like Luthor Jr ; he looked like Darkseid. That child stopped being 100% Luthor Jr only when Grail's Amazonian ritual completed and Darkseid was completely born in that new born child's body (After shedding all the absorbed powers and started being raised by Grail).
• Their is little to nothing different about the durability either. I just gave you examples of non planetary level strength (non-superman level stat) beings consistently moving him and drawing blood. Unlike the Hellbat wankers who post random favored selected parts of his fight with Darkseid, I posted the entire fight so my credibility hardly can be doubted.

uxas =/= darkseid =/= superwoman's body =/= any host body that has received the omega effect

Except there's a clear difference between Lex receiving the Omega Effect and Superwoman's baby becoming Darkseid and hosting his true power; the Omega Effect. Just because Lex received the Omega Effect, he didn't start to look like Uxas. But after all the incidents that happened at the end of JL #50 and when Grail started raising the child, the child was Darkseid, no longer Luthor Jr. Besides, Darkseid has shown the ability to absorb godly life forces. It is how he gained his godhood. No one went around calling it was Luthor Jr with OE that faced Wonder Woman. Like I said, the child was no longer Luthor Jr after this

@necrogod: darkseid is just a name given to whoever is the primary wielder of the OE. they are not the individual body even though they are possessed by the same spirit. I'm well aware of how superwoman's baby got his powers but superwoman's baby is not grail's father, neither is darkseid...it is uxas

that being said...you're conflating the durability of each darkseid host

Damn I forgot that current Darkseid is Mazahs' child 🤦🏽‍♂️

@indominus:

@necrogod:

Except it isn't. When Lex Luthor recieved the Omega Effect, he was called as Lex Luthor : God of Apokolips, not Darkseid.

like I said before. darkseid is just a name. lex luthor doesn't need to take the name darkseid for us to know whose body the spirit of the true darkseid has possessed

You're the only one obsessed with this whole thing. In the previous continuity, IIRC, Yuga Khan was the wielder of the Omega Effect but he wasn't called Darkseid.

yuga khan didn't wield anything. he just had the ability to command the source

That being said, Lex wasn't called Darkseid when he received the Omega Effect but was called as Lex Luthor : God of Apokolips. I understand what you're trying to say but it isn't the case. Superwoman's baby stopped being Superwoman's baby after the end of JL #50. The child was transformed into a vessel (a body) for Uxas to be reborn.

so you're aware they are two different bodies. uxas and superwoman's baby

As long as it isn't limited to just soul/mind possession, they are more or less the same. Or you may back your claim up with scans and proof. I'm waiting.

by your admission. two different bodies hence two different levels of durability

@indominus:

like I said before. darkseid is just a name. lex luthor doesn't need to take the name darkseid for us to know whose body the spirit of the true darkseid has possessed

Darkseid is just a name in the same sense as Superman. However, unlike Superman who has several alternate counterparts, there is only one Darkseid in the multiverse and he exists in the sphere of gods and Uxas by far is the only one who adopted the name Darkseid. Lex never took the name Darkseid because he wasn't Darkseid just because he had the Omega Effect. And NO NO NO Lex Luthor wasn't even behaving like True Darkseid does and it was clear that he was just Lex Luthor : God of Apokolips wielding the Omega Effect.

yuga khan didn't wield anything. he just had the ability to command the source

I can remember something called Torment Sanction been wielded by Zonus (Yuga Khan). I may have mistook it for the OE my bad.

so you're aware they are two different bodies. uxas and superwoman's baby

Two bodies before they became one and the same thing. I'm repeating this for the last time, Luthor Jr ; child of Superwoman was taken by Grail after she executed Superwoman. Then Grail used the "MAZAHS" lightning to absorb the Omega Effect from Lex. She went on to seperate Flash from the Black Racer and eventually absorbed the anti-life from Steve Trevor and she says "so that there can be a new birth" and then Darkseid is reborn. If you've read Infinity Man & The Forever People (can't remember the exact issue number), you might know that it is within the Anti-Life Equation's ability to resurrect gods within in a new host body and once resurrected, the host will no longer be what he used to be, rather he's the relevant god reborn. This is exactly what happened with Darkseid aka Uxas. By the power of the anti-life, Uxas who's the one and only Darkseid was resurrected within the baby's body. And even after Darkseid was seperated from the anti-life and returned to the child form that child was no longer Luthor Jr because Uxas was reborn in that body thanks to the Anti-Life equation's power. Grail even calls it the second chance for her father.

by your admission. two different bodies hence two different levels of durability

I didn't admit anything don't twist my words. As I've said above, Uxas was reborn again, was growing as he was getting fed with godly life forces and was restored to his prime form once he drained Zeus's life force. So he is Uxas reborn aka Darkseid. Just stop grasping at straws. There is no such durability differences. It's consistent for non planetary strength boasting, non high tier striking power wielding people to hurt and draw blood from Darkseid. I gave you 4 instances ; Power Girl, Superman (while weakened from Torture and experiments), Rebirth Wonder Woman and Jessica Cruz hurting and drawing blood and inflicting serious damage to some of his limbs. You're in denial because Hellbat didn't achieve it and that I posted the entire fight rather than selected favored parts.

@necrogod:

There is no such durability differences. It's consistent for non planetary strength boasting, non high tier striking power wielding people to hurt and draw blood from Darkseid.

there is a difference when you can take can hits from an amped alan scott and anti-matter blasts from the anti-monitor without bleeding and survive the collapse of boom tubes and the destruction of old genesis

I gave you 4 instances ; Power Girl

his eyes weren't solid. no shame in that. poke an alligator on its back with a stick and then poke it again in the eyes and see what happens

Superman (while weakened from Torture and experiments)

uxas was weakened worse than superman

Rebirth Wonder Woman

before he reached full power

and Jessica Cruz hurting and drawing blood

and this is an anti-feat how? when lanterns have been known to punch well above their weight without being depleted of power. if you're going to bring up 2%...keep in mind 2% is still a lot of charge

You're in denial because Hellbat didn't achieve it

denial of what? newsflash!!! I'm not defending hellbat in thread...heck I didn't even mention hellbat at all in this thread...where did I mention him?

@indominus:

there is a difference when you can take can hits from an amped alan scott and anti-matter blasts from the anti-monitor without bleeding and survive the collapse of boom tubes and the destruction of old genesis

Amped Alan Scott before he embraced the Multiversal Green is the one who got 2 shotted by Darkseid. After he realized that he has to accept/surrender to the power of the Multiversal Green for it to properly work and when he did, he came back and bullrushed and one-shotted Darkseid by amping his strike with the power of 52 Earths. After about two pages Darkseid came back without significant damage and this is his highest showing by far.

He was amped during Darkseid War as Mr Miracle explains how he was thrown off from the top of the food chain and was looking for a source to amp and set off for his next conquest (I'm guessing Darkseid ravaged an entire universe with his armies and drained the life forces of the planets he invaded and ate those life forces fed unto Apokolips using the Mobius chamber...Its just a guess) It makes sense since he was pushed back by an amateur Justice League but in DS War he was having a universal entity on the ropes. OR Anti Monitor for some reason was nerfed.

Boom tube feat is very good. Destruction of Old God planet wasn't total destruction right?? more like they destroyed the surface of the planet or so. Anyway I don't know whether that origin is relevant or not since him and Izaya were retconned to be sons of Yuga Khan rather than petty farmers. IDK its really confusing.

Also, there's a difference between blunt force durability and durability against energy.

uxas was weakened worse than superman

How?? by fighting and basically dominating the leaguers ??? Not to mention that besides Superman, the rest of them were mid-tiers. Superman took an AOE and then was one-shotted, and then tortured. By the looks of it, the only damage Darkseid suffered was stab wounds from Diana and Arthur.

before he reached full power

You could say he was never at full power until JL Odyssey #12.

and this is an anti-feat how? when lanterns have been known to punch well above their weight without being depleted of power. if you're going to bring up 2%...keep in mind 2% is still a lot of charge

Alright, what are Jessica's other notable striking feats? I'm 100% sure that she is nowhere close to the level of Pre 52 Hal, Kyle or John and that her striking power is remotely in their range. I've seen Hal holding the Earth from being split apart or something while nearly chargeless but the thing is they were consistently displayed as top tier lanterns. And I honestly don't see Jessica on that level. She hasn't to my knowledge reached Herald tier.

My entire focus was to point out some fallacies used by some users to say that Hellbat>>>Superman (They think that Hellbat is 3 tiers above Superman) using some selected parts of Hellbat's fights. I wasn't trying to say Hellbat was a total weaksauce fodder but simply that it isn't on Superman's level just because Hellbat got in some clean hits and immediately went on to be overpowered. IMO, Hellbat starts at near Superman level but due to Life Force drain it cannot operate on that level continuously.

Side Note : I prefer this version of Darkseid over his pre-flashpoint version but even this version tends to be very inconsistent. Using him as a centre of argument is not wise.

Someone needs to make a thread about Hulkbuster suit and Bleeding Edge Armor. Iron Man fanboys are getting too loud here.

Nice article.

@necrogod: I just arrived in the chat.

Why are you only using half truths in your arguments.

For a starters Superman wasn’t being tortured on Apokolips desaad was trying to uncover the kryptonian genome so he could make super Parademons.

Wonder Woman was versing a Darkseid who wasn’t even at full power, never mind he killed Zeus thanks to reincarnating in Superwoman’s child who has the power of MAZAHS so everyone Darkseid kills he absorbed their power. Absorbing Zeus may have made him adult but there is no evidence he was at the same power like when he fough Highfather and the battle destroyed planets in the confrontation. If you think he was at that level of power show scans.

Jessica Cruz hurt Darkseid because he purposefully lowed he’s guard against her since Darkseid had I guess you could say feelings for Cruz which is shown as early as chapter 6 when he says I like you Jessica cruz. You are defianrly annoying. And he even offered he to be a New God, a God of Will on the very chapter you spoke of Justice league Odyssey chapter 12.

Furthermore you even talk about Darkseid’s battle in earth-2 leaving out the part we’re he fought Ion Allan Scott with the power of 52 universes, which weakened Darkseid for several appearance including he’s encounter with Hellbat since I’m an honest individual, Darkseid was in the middle of healing when Hellbat knocked on he’s door step but regardless he would still be above superman level.

But what I really don’t like is how you adulterated the hellbat vs Darkseid fight. The honest truth of the matter is Hellbat could tussle with Darkseid, even if weakened he is still far above superman. Darkseid and Bruce engages in physical combat and when Batman has the upper hand, Darkseid switched to the omega beams, Bruce absorbed them and he’s suit was amped, Darkseid realising Batman would only continue to bully him in H2H and omega beams would only further amp the suit gave up. That’s why Darkseid spared he’s son a beating.

But despite all of this regardless of all of the things I’ve said, the thing that I’m going to say that has the most weight is new 52 Darkseid is inconsistent. And I’ve never used him alone as a method to determine the Hellbat‘s power.

I look at all appearances and compared the hellbat with the characters of that time.

For instance in Superman (2016) Amped Eradicator beat the snot out of superman and left him unable to fight and then absorbed him. Lois Lane with no functionality of the suit was bullying eradicator with superman absorbed in physical confrontation. So much so that Eradicator spammed heat vision whoch shouldn’t even harm the hellbat as it was forged in the sun and has been in pits of apocalypse, but regardless of the excuse Hellbat bashed Amped Eradicator with superman absorbed and Amped Eradicator bashed into almost total lose of consciousness.

This alone should solidify Hellbat >>> Superman you just left this out to deceive everyone.

In a Batman comic Hellbat beating Darkseid plot can be used to justify its strength.

In a Superman comic Hellbat bashing the snot out of the bad guy that just bashed superman into almost total lose of consciousness isn’t plot the hellbat is just that strong

In detective comics Hellbat beat a demon that was bullying etrigan, the same Etrigan that bashed superman, Wonder Woman and Batman in trinity and the same etrigan that fought multiple supermen including but not limited to superman, red son superman, overman and a few others in superman issue 15.

To believe Hellbat is below superman is the equivalent of believing the earth is flat

@mbatz:

@mbatz said:

@necrogod: I just arrived in the chat.

Well Hello :)

Why are you only using half truths in your arguments.

Half truths such as posting the entire fight rather than selected parts you favor?

For a starters Superman wasn’t being tortured on Apokolips desaad was trying to uncover the kryptonian genome so he could make super Parademons.

Whatever the process Superman was subject to, it didn't look like a relaxing nuru massage. Just by looking at his face you can tell. Not to mention the fact that he had already taken an AOE as well as an Omega Beam prior to this.

Wonder Woman was versing a Darkseid who wasn’t even at full power, never mind he killed Zeus thanks to reincarnating in Superwoman’s child who has the power of MAZAHS so everyone Darkseid kills he absorbed their power. Absorbing Zeus may have made him adult but there is no evidence he was at the same power like when he fough Highfather and the battle destroyed planets in the confrontation. If you think he was at that level of power show scans.

I never said he was at full power. He was restored to his prime adult form. And absorbing godly life forces is something he already did before when he became a god according to his first origin. And just because he didn't destroy a planet fighting Diana doesn't equate to him being weakened. You have no evidence for him being much weaker than usual either.

Jessica Cruz hurt Darkseid because he purposefully lowed he’s guard against her since Darkseid had I guess you could say feelings for Cruz which is shown as early as chapter 6 when he says I like you Jessica cruz.

So, because he had "feelings" for Jessica his durability was weakened as well? Lmao this is the first time I heard that having feelings for someone reduces physical durability. I'm not talking about him lowering a guard I'm talking about Jessica w/ 2% charge drawing an absurd amount of blood lol.

You are defianrly annoying.

Not as much as you who go around dumping selected parts of the fight which you favor, to justify your terrible argument. Your arguments aren't sound and are clearly biased and you were called out for that several times.

Furthermore you even talk about Darkseid’s battle in earth-2 leaving out the part we’re he fought Ion Allan Scott with the power of 52 universes, which weakened Darkseid for several appearance including he’s encounter with Hellbat since I’m an honest individual, Darkseid was in the middle of healing when Hellbat knocked on he’s door step but regardless he would still be above superman level.

I honestly forgot to mention that he was weakened from his previous encounter so, Thank You for pointing that out but the fact is, it's a point in my favor. Hellbat couldn't do shit to a weakened Darkseid. Next..

But what I really don’t like is how you adulterated the hellbat vs Darkseid fight. The honest truth of the matter is Hellbat could tussle with Darkseid, even if weakened he is still far above superman.

Hellbat landed a few hits without inflicting damage to a weakened Darkseid yes. And Darkseid is above Superman yes.

Darkseid and Bruce engages in physical combat and when Batman has the upper hand,

LMFAO who are you kidding? I posted the entire fight and all Hellbat did was land 3-4 hits while Darkseid was monologuing and ragdolling the Hellbat and the scans are right in front of you. I didn't post favored parts of the fight to support a terrible argument. You may have fooled the others who haven't read the arc with your usual gimmicks but you ain't fooling me because I've read it.

Darkseid switched to the omega beams,

Because Bruce was mocking him despite getting bullied throughout the entire fight

Bruce absorbed them and he’s suit was amped,

You're gold mate. Pure gold. I was waiting for a confirmation of this. So the claim made by some users that Batman's Central Port Blast was amped with the Darkseid's own Omega Energy absorbed through the Chaos Shard is true after all. Thanks again.

Darkseid realising Batman would only continue to bully him in H2H and omega beams would only further amp the suit gave up. That’s why Darkseid spared he’s son a beating.

Except for the fact that Hellbat was the one getting bullied throughout the fight. However I agree with the Omega Beam part. As long as Bruce had the Chaos Shard, the OB s wouldn't have got the job done. But physically ? Nuh uh! You know that Hellbat drains Bruce's metabolism and at a certain point he won't be able to bear it right? He had to bait Darkseid to fire Omega Beams (for one thing it was what he came for, for another, he wasn't doing any significant damage at all and was getting abused by DS) His wit played out well, the God of Evil took the bait and fired the OBs. Bruce managed to escape.

But despite all of this regardless of all of the things I’ve said, the thing that I’m going to say that has the most weight is new 52 Darkseid is inconsistent. And I’ve never used him alone as a method to determine the Hellbat‘s power.

You always did in pretty much all the threads. "Superman could move the larger than Earth Brainiac mothership but couldn't move Darkside while Hellbat moved him just fine"???Remember this terrible argument you presented? What I did was pointing out the fallacies and presenting several other instances of people drawing blood/inflicting damage to and moving him. Superman drew blood from him, Power Girl moved him, punched him in the face through his Omega Beams, drew blood and poke his eyeball yet Hellbat failed to do significant damage to him rather than staggering him with blows that didn't draw a single drop of blood and only managing to drop him on his ass with a blast that was amped by Darkseid's own Omega energy, aside from Darkseid being weakened.

For instance in Superman (2016) Amped Eradicator beat the snot out of superman and left him unable to fight and then absorbed him.

Oh boy !! Context seems to be missing in all your arguments. Superman wasn't unable to fight. He was pulling his punches in fear of the souls/life forces housed within Eradicator and Eradicator knew it and took advantage of it.

Lois Lane with no functionality of the suit was bullying eradicator with superman absorbed in physical confrontation.

Lois got in 3 solid hits and was immediately overpowered along with little Jon once Eradicator stopped clowning.

So much so that Eradicator spammed heat vision whoch shouldn’t even harm the hellbat as it was forged in the sun and has been in pits of apocalypse, but regardless of the excuse Hellbat bashed Amped Eradicator with superman absorbed and Amped Eradicator bashed into almost total lose of consciousness.

God how hypocritical can you be?? Really?? Bashed Eradicator into almost unconsciousness? I'll give you the link for part 2 of the Debunking the Hellbat Wank in which I addressed Eradicator fight in detail..I'm gonna expose you sooner or later. You're very crafty I give you that.

https://comicvine.gamespot.com/forums/gen-discussion-1/debunking-the-hellbat-wank-part-ii-2074770/

This alone should solidify Hellbat >>> Superman you just left this out to deceive everyone.

If anyone who attempted to deceive others It's you. No amount of your bullshit can trick me into believing Hellbat>>>Superman.

In a Batman comic Hellbat beating Darkseid plot can be used to justify its strength.

Irrelevant & Debunked by posting the entire fight

In a Superman comic Hellbat bashing the snot out of the bad guy that just bashed superman into almost total lose of consciousness isn’t plot the hellbat is just that strong

Your mental gymnastics have a limit dude. Read part 2 of Debunking Hellbat wank where I posted the entire fight up until Superman breaking from Eradicator's body.

In detective comics Hellbat beat a demon that was bullying etrigan,

A computer generated simulation of that demon. You willingly omitted to mention it. That's not an error, it's your hypocrisy. You just used your usual artifices ; muh..Batman is prepared, Batman knows his enemies blah blah. Not to mention you used Pre 52 version of Etrigan for some stupid scaling.

the same Etrigan that bashed superman, Wonder Woman and Batman in trinity and the same etrigan that fought multiple supermen including but not limited to superman, red son superman, overman and a few others in superman issue 15.

Not interested. You used terrible scaling, posted selected parts of some fights to justify your claim, willfully lied and tried to mislead others so I'm not taking you as a credible person anymore.

To believe Hellbat is below superman is the equivalent of believing the earth is flat

To believe Hellbat>>>Superman due to landing 2-3 solid hits and getting overpowered immediately once the opponent got serious, or getting ragdolled throughout an entire fight while inflicting no damage with blows and managing to escape after channeling his opponents own energy using an artifact, or winning a simulated fight, is simply cementing oneself in brain damage territory.

I'm done debating with you and taking you credibly.

@necrogod:

Destruction of Old God planet wasn't total destruction right?? more like they destroyed the surface of the planet or so.

it split the planet in half or rather into pieces that slowly became two planets due to gravity

Anyway I don't know whether that origin is relevant or not since him and Izaya were retconned to be sons of Yuga Khan rather than petty farmers. IDK its really confusing.

it's not really a retcon...it's just filling in missing information or extra detail we haven't really had

How?? by fighting and basically dominating the leaguers ??? Not to mention that besides Superman, the rest of them were mid-tiers. Superman took an AOE and then was one-shotted, and then tortured. By the looks of it, the only damage Darkseid suffered was stab wounds from Diana and Arthur.

he still came out worse than superman...at least superman could see his opponent

Alright, what are Jessica's other notable striking feats? I'm 100% sure that she is nowhere close to the level of Pre 52 Hal, Kyle or John and that her striking power is remotely in their range.

there's a first time for everything

I've seen Hal holding the Earth from being split apart or something while nearly chargeless but the thing is they were consistently displayed as top tier lanterns. And I honestly don't see Jessica on that level. She hasn't to my knowledge reached Herald tier.

either way...the point is that 2% charge is still a lot plus GL power is based on strength of will

My entire focus was to point out some fallacies used by some users to say that Hellbat>>>Superman

I have no problem with this...

(They think that Hellbat is 3 tiers above Superman) using some selected parts of Hellbat's fights.

I don't see the hellbat bench pressing the earth or flying faster than light though I must say the pieces were forged in some tough environments

I wasn't trying to say Hellbat was a total weaksauce fodder but simply that it isn't on Superman's level just because Hellbat got in some clean hits and immediately went on to be overpowered.

and neither of them are on darkseid's level

@necrogod: let me help @indominus in this debate by simplifying it.

1. Uxas is a new god. He got the omega force and became darkseid. He started with New God physiology, and if you've read the Godhead arc, you know how far ahead of the curve that stuff is.

2. Newest body, from the WW arc, is the son of Mazahs and Superwoman. But, don't forget Mazahs is just Earth-3 Lex Luthor without any physical powers. Basically, his new body is a half amazonian half human hybrid. His body thus should be and is on the level of an Amazonian at best.

@necrogod said:

Well hello to you too.

@necrogod said:

@mbatz:

@mbatz said:

@necrogod:

Why are you only using half truths in your arguments.

Half truths such as posting the entire fight rather than selected parts you favor?

For a starters Superman wasn’t being tortured on Apokolips desaad was trying to uncover the kryptonian genome so he could make super Parademons.

Whatever the process Superman was subject to, it didn't look like a relaxing nuru massage. Just by looking at his face you can tell. Not to mention the fact that he had already taken an AOE as well as an Omega Beam prior to this.

Yeah because when I donate blood and have a needle up my arm, I’m handicapped. Superman might have a lot of needles but they only ever did pierce he’s skin on a cellular level, hence why there are no wholes as it would be counterproductive to kill the being you need for an unlimited supply of DNA for super Parademons. Just for context kryptonian DNA is too complex to just clone and Darkseid only succeed in making one clone which he sent to earth 2.

The Power of MAZAHS absorbs any power of anyone he kills, but this doesn’t contradict your argument but I thought I’d tell you for future reference. The part that does require my attention is your logic for Darkseid being at I guess Justice league issue (2011) issue 6 levels of power. Darkseid fighting Wonder Woman on equal footing should tell you he was weakened. Especially since he had merely absorbed Zeus’ power, we have no way to actually gauge whether he was stronger or weaker, Saying you have no proof isn’t an argument, and it’s a burden of proof fallacy. Despite that, logically for Wonder Woman to compete with Darkseid at all he had to be weaker, she has NEVER once shown anything that would put her on that level, that is evidence enough, combined with the fact Darkseids power is ambiguous and unknown to us you shouldn’t have assumed he was stronger to begin with just because he looked at normal levels, that was bad speculation on your part and furthermore we’ve already seen Darkseid when he’s weakened and he’s appearance remains relatively the same.

Now, this made me laugh. Out of all the arguments. Allow me to explain, in final crisis Darkseid’s essence was broken and scattered, Darkseid in Justice League Odyssey went on a journey to retrieve he‘s pieces. Do you understand, Darkseid is complete, why do you think in Justice League Odyssey he said he’d become a supreme being, he’s back to he’s post crisis true form. So listen to yourself for a minute, Darkseid claimed and scans in the spoiler block that when he becomes a cosmic god he’ll protect the remaining life when the multiverse is attacked and destroyed by omnivorous chaos.

Couldn’t load the scan the comic Is Justice league Odyssesy issue 11 page free this one he states he is going to be a cosmic force as he once was

Ultimately I can understand why you’d laugh at the idea of Darkseid being weakened but it should also be noted it’s not the first time he’s let his guard down resulting in horrendous effects toward himself. An example of this is when Soulfire Darkseid battled Source and Superman made a whole in SF Darkseid by ramming into him and Darkseid said it was because he was unaware of him and promptly oneshotted superman unconscious which with omega beams.Just as an example, but to suggest he was at full power is ridiculous, even new 52 Darkseid tanked the force of 52 universe from Ion Alan Scott to the face, and that’s him when he was fragmented and incomplete. Do you understand there is no way to reasonable explanation but we can’t suddenly say Jessica hits as hard as Ion Alan Scott, this should be the simplest explanation, saying Darkseid was let he’s guard down is the only explanation, he isn’t at soulfire darkseid level because with he’s fall and rupture the new gods he absorbed escaped and reincarnated, but Darkseid would bare minimum be above the strongest version of he’s incomplete self which was when he fought Ion Alan Scott.

And the part about Defiantly Annoying was what Darkseid said to Jessica Cruz, it wasn’t meant for you. Darkseid you “I like you Jessica Cruz. You are defiantly annoying”. That’s what I meant he showed some level of i don’t know what to call it, it’s not friendship, trust, love but it’s a love for something about her in particular but even thats a strong word and he’s shown to consistently hold Jessica to a high regard, higher then Cyborg, Starfire and Azreal. Ah whatever he had no ill intentions for Jessica is an understatement and he had good plans for her I guess but she took darkseid’s good will and throw it out the window.

Yeah I know you didn’t bother to say he was weakened because you didn’t mention powergirl fought a weakened Darkseid who just took on Ion Alan Scott. Thats why I said you stated a half truth, but in this case it’s more of a lie of omission.

This a complete misinterpretation of the battle. So I’ll just narrate page by page saying things as they are. The battle started with Kalibak jumping to hit Hellbat, Hellbat sends him away, Darkseid crushes the motherbox in Batman’s hand, and Hellbat punches Darkseid so hard he stumbles noticeably back, Kalibak is shown on one panel running back to Darkseid since he was merely sent to another location on Apokolips, Batman then punches Darkseid in the chin, robins are shown fighting Parademons, Darkseid then Grabs Batman by the leg since he’s not as great as Batman at hand 2 hand and throws Batman hitting Damians casket, meaning Hellbat hasn’t taken damage yet. Batman rushes after the casket falling and catching it before it enters the lava and flies off with it and the chaos shard. Darkseid needs the chaos shard for a weapon he’s building and flies down and smashes Batman into a pit of apocalypse which is the most noticeable thing that has occurred. And now I start to see the scans you posted above but its also abundantly clear you just pick and chose what to use to make Batman look bad. Darkseid ripped Hellbats wings which didn’t do any damage to Batman or the Hellbat as the wings reattach and took damians casket. Darkseid presses harder on Hellbat‘s skull, Batman makes the wings turn into bats, Batman escapes from under Batman’s fought and continues punching Darkseid, Darkseid grabbed Hellbat causing pain, Hellbat punches Darkseid in the face moving so far every blow has caused Darkseid to move or stumble significantly, Darkseid isn’t tanking them he’s taking damage. Darkseid punches Hellbat threw the air, Batman taunts Darkseid saying he should kill him, which was he’s plan so he could use the omega energy to revive Damian using the chaos shard, Batman absorbs it. Batman uses a full power blast to Darkseid and Darkseid let’s out a little cry “rrnn”. And Darkseid lays there on the floor, Batman then connects the chaos shard to the suit which changed it red and gave The suit power do you understand no more metabolism being absorbed. Kalibak arrives and he’s Dad Darkseid is getting up slowly and has a Very, very noticeable burn mark to he’s armour, the armour is so filled with power it’s near passing with parademons would kill them.

You completely lied, Darkseid only ever really touched batman 3 time, the first time was him grabbing he’s foot and throwing him into the air, hitting damians casket which wouldn’t cause damage, it wasn’t even against the wall or floor and Batman dove to pick up Damians casket just to show how high they were. The second time was when Darkseid jumped on top of Hellbat and squeezed he’s head and that didn’t even do as much as to dent the mask. The third time Darkseid grabbed, squeezed and punched Batman into the air. You completely misinterpreted the fight, Batman by all means did more damage to Darkseid in the sense Darkseid was in a far worse state then Batman, a Darkseid struggled to get up at the end and had a severe burn mark to he’s chest.

First you misinterpret comics and now my words, I said I never use that fight by it’s own to determine Batman’s strength, something occurring once could be a fluke,luck or a coincidence, something of similar magnitude happening again doesnt mean consistency, but when the writer of a superman comic makes a distinction between superman and Hellbat thats no coincidence understand what I’m saying first. Before you write a paragraph. Furthermore I never really cared about Hellbat’s lifting strength I only ever said it had better AP then superman and possibly better lifting using scaling but it definitely has better

Now that’s a lie. Completely and utterly. You’ve been faced with irrefutable evidence so you made fake evidence. Superman never once cared about the souls that were inside. The moment Eradicator accidentally ate Krypto Superman’s eyes turned red and he started punching Eradicator in the face, and Eradicator the mad lad had the audacity to tell him to stop while he’s getting punched in the face by a bloodlusted red eyed superman. Superman never even mentioned the souls of the kryptonians or there well-being during their fight. Your just making stuff up. What makes the situation worse is Lois made eradicator scream with no knowledge of martial arts or how to fight. And we know he wasn’t pulling he’s punches because superman fought Eradicator harder then when he first saw Eradicator and didn’t know about the souls in the first place. So stop your lies he never cared about them, how would punches even harm a soul, you can beat superman asked himself the same question. Superman was actually KO’d by eradicator when the sould came out of Eradicator briefly in issue 4 and Superman narrowly escaped death. In fact issue 4 proves your lie to be completely wrong as Eradicator re-absorbed the souls and they asked superman to set them free.

Next time you want to lie, do it to someone who hasn’t res

It’s not about the number of hits, the number is irrelevant, Superman did over a hundred hits and couldn’t make Eradicator scream in pain, and she had no functionality over the suit, it was bonded to her telepathically, she couldn’t fly, use energy blasts, turn invisible had zero protocols. You know nothing.

Amd congrats on exposing yourself you shouldn’t have said Superman was afraid if harming the souls you just exposed yourself.

Your hypocritical, I might have forgotten to mention it was a computer simulation in this thread, but you already know I tell people other people it is a simulation, and I‘ve told you on other threads. So while I did leave it out, it wasn’t relevant since I know you know. If it was someone else then it would be a deception but not when I’ve told you on 3 threads. Bur that’s not why your hypocritical, you say I’m using wacky scaling using pre-52 scaling when in other threads and this one I specifically mentioned feats from rebirth. What part of Trinity: Rebirth and Superman(2016):Rebirth sounds like pre-52 to you. You just the being faced with evidence. And it’s not even complicated, Batman has seen Etrigan take on a Superman and Wonder Woman, why would he make he’s simulation any weaker, he’s Batman. Your just logic is heavily flawed, Batman wouldn’t put Hellbat above etrigan in a simulation unless calculations proved otherwise.

Your simply incredulous toward facts. I’m a person that can be convinced with facts, here you are saying at the end Eradicator ragdolled Hellbat when he didn’t he just heat visioned it since he didn’t want to fight in physical confrontation, which Lois with no martial arts made Eradicator cry. The same Eradicator that KO’d superman in issue 4 and almost did it again in the same comic using physical confrontation, you don’t have to be a genius, supes does a 100 punches and a few from Hellbat make it scream in agony. Ridiculous. Saying scaling is bad isn’t an argument and what makes it worse is it was all from rebirth, you didn’t bother to read what I posted on 2 threads now because this is the second time I’ve told you Etrigan has bullied superman in rebirth. Darkseid vs Hellbat is the only arguable piece of evidence and even that suggest Hellbat is above superman. Just the fact it’s meant to handle league threat as it’s intended purpose should make everything its done consisten, if it performed any less it wouldn’t be considered consistent with statements. Your arguments are a joke, and I’m not finished with you I’m Going to debunk everything until there’s nothing to be debunked.

@mbatz: I wrote a pretty big response to your second comment yesterday but it said that the CFPR token is invalid or something therefore my reply couldn't be posted. I'll figure something out and respond real soon

Yeah I know you didn’t bother to say he was weakened because you didn’t mention powergirl fought a weakened Darkseid who just took on Ion Alan Scott. Thats why I said you stated a half truth, but in this case it’s more of a lie of omission.

Lie of omission my arse. You clearly didn't read Earth 2 : World's End. Power Girl and Val Zod took the fight to Apokolips, they breached their surface, then attacked Darkseid. Val Zod got curbstomped but Power Girl kept up fighting and inflicted a lot of damage on DS. The whole society arrived towards the end of the fight and Alan Scott only arrived after Darkseid floored the entire society. Alan failed to inflict any damage and got his ass handed to him immediately. Then he used his power to revive his battered team mates, and then Power-Girl and Red Tornado went after DS for round 2. They didn't keep fighting as PG escaped..Alan then surrendered his will to the Multiversal Green unlocking his full potential. Then he came and one-shotted Darkseid. Again, a liar who was called out during several threads trying to accuse me of lying lol.

I'll respond separately to each and every comment in separate messages because it seems the only way that works.

This a complete misinterpretation of the battle. So I’ll just narrate page by page saying things as they are

Oh please !!! You don't need to give your fan-fic narration for this one..It's already addressed in detail in the OP.

Batman by all means did more damage to Darkseid in the sense Darkseid was in a far worse state then Batman, a Darkseid struggled to get up at the end and had a severe burn mark to he’s chest.

Your own twisted interpretation doesn't fit within the context. Like I said, he only staggered him 3-4 times with his punches, was unable to draw blood, meanwhile DS was monologuing and ragdolling the Hellbat. The only time Batman inflicted serious damage was his central port blast which was again amped by Darkseid's omega energy, so it doesn't dictate much. If you want, I'll go scan by scan again. Your interpretation is blatantly incorrect. You're trying to find something good for Batman in a fight he was getting bullied lol. Kinda like when I was too noob-ish, I tried to twist Thor's showing against Immortal Hulk by saying that he survived the punch and wasn't totally KO'd but in reality he was one-shotted plain and simple. I've come a long way since. It's about time you do the same, by accepting Hellbat only managed to escape and was doing no visible damage( there was no indication of internal damage too so..) and a weakened Darkseid was bullying the Hellbat.

@necrogod: Seems legit I re-read earth 2 looks like I’m about to get exposed

If possible can we just skip to the new 52 stuff which is correct

Although it is your choice those who’s are wrong should be exposed so I do have it coming but the rest of my argument is correct

Now that’s a lie. Completely and utterly. You’ve been faced with irrefutable evidence so you made fake evidence. Superman never once cared about the souls that were inside.

What makes the situation worse is Lois made eradicator scream with no knowledge of martial arts or how to fight. And we know he wasn’t pulling he’s punches because superman fought Eradicator harder then when he first saw Eradicator and didn’t know about the souls in the first place. So stop your lies he never cared about them,

how would punches even harm a soul, you can beat superman asked himself the same question. Superman was actually KO’d by eradicator when the sould came out of Eradicator briefly in issue 4 and Superman narrowly escaped death. In fact issue 4 proves your lie to be completely wrong as Eradicator re-absorbed the souls and they asked superman to set them free.

Next time you want to lie, do it to someone who hasn’t res

And again you're calling me a liar. In fact I'm yet to be called out on various threads as a liar. Nevermind back to the topic, Superman actually did care for the souls. They were his kin, he was able to feel them and their pain when they were released in a violent outburst. When Superman (w/ Jon's help) punched out Eradicator's jaw out which breached his outer shell, there seemed to be quite a large explosion (sort of) which severely harmed Kal. And it didn't end up well for the souls too as they were scattered all over, some in people's bodies etc. And they were again absorbed by Eradicator.

Regarding the fight on the moon, Superman was playing strategy. I read the issues 4,5 and 6 yet again and now I understand the scenario even better and I will correct myself on certain things. Kal knew that breaching Eradicator's shell and releasing the souls will not suffice because for one, Superman will be incapacitated from the outburst, while Eradicator can repair himself easily and come back to absorb the souls back again. So that won't work. So when he rematched him, he was pulling his punches and was willingly letting him to be absorbed. Then while inside Eradicator's body, he was able to talk with the souls, they agreed, all of them placed themselves inside Superman's body essentially super-charging him. Then Kal came out and proceeded to beat the crap out of Eradicator.

They took off into space (pages 8 and 9 of issue #6) Superman then released the souls inside him, Eradicator again attempted to ingest the released souls, but as the Eradicator opened his mouth, Superman took the chance to release Krypto, and then Kal and Krypto both ganged up on Eradicator (pages 10, 11 and 12 of issue #6) and Eradicator was left totally powerless, Superman then bade farewell to the kryptonian souls.

The thing I rectify myself on, is regarding the pulling punches part. Superman was pulling his punches not actually in fear of harming the souls, but actually trying to avoid what happened previously (shell breach-violent outburst-superman incapacitated-Eradicator repairing himself and coming back to absorb the souls yet again). The delusional Eradicator believed he was afraid of hurting the souls and absorbed Superman thinking that he took advantage of but in reality, it was Superman's intention to be absorbed and retaliate w/ help from the housed in souls and be perma-done with Eradicator while avoiding the mistake he did last time.

@mbatz: I did correct myself on the pulling his punches thing. Read my above response

It’s not about the number of hits, the number is irrelevant, Superman did over a hundred hits and couldn’t make Eradicator scream in pain, and she had no functionality over the suit, it was bonded to her telepathically, she couldn’t fly, use energy blasts, turn invisible had zero protocols. You know nothing.

Amd congrats on exposing yourself you shouldn’t have said Superman was afraid if harming the souls you just exposed yourself.

Sure it's not about the number of hits. Superman did breach the outer shell with a haymaker (albeit w/ some help from Jon but still...) Hellbat too was capable of hurting the Eradiator once with a haymaker, and again with a slam, but Jon himself hurt Eradicator with heat vision as you see in the below scan.

here you are saying at the end Eradicator ragdolled Hellbat when he didn’t he just heat visioned it since he didn’t want to fight in physical confrontation, which Lois with no martial arts made Eradicator cry. The same Eradicator that KO’d superman in issue 4 and almost did it again in the same comic using physical confrontation, you don’t have to be a genius, supes does a 100 punches and a few from Hellbat make it scream in agony. Ridiculous.

Eradicator blasted the Hellbat with some kind of a heat blast which hurt the Hellbat but not that much, yes. If I said Eradicator ragdolled the Hellbat, I'm genuinely sorry. However, Eradicator once stopped taking it easy, he ragdolled Jon, and immediately overpowered the Hellbat.

As you can see, he overpowered both of them relatively easily.

Btw, Superman was not KO'd once during his fight w/ Eradicator from Eradicator's attacks. He was incapacitated with the outburst caused by rupturing the outer shell and in the moon, he was simply playing strategy and let himself be absorbed. About 100+ punches, like I said once, contrary to the common view that blitz-punches hurt more than haymakers, It's actually haymakers that pack more force (I explained it using doomsday vs superman and there are plenty more examples of speedy punches failing to do the job while haymakers getting it done) Hellbat used a haymaker, and it worked.

I'll draw the line here. I won't accept that Hellbat>>>Superman because,

• Superman was able to draw blood from a battered Darksied while Superman himself wasn't fully recovered from the Omega Beam hit.
• Power Girl (who by consistent showings is below Superman) did significantly more damage ; drawing blood, punching him in the face through the Omega Beams, poking his eyeball, shrugging off Omega Beams etc while Hellbat who's supposedly 3 tiers above Superman failed to draw blood, inflict damage to limbs and only managed to drop him on hiss ass by channeling DS's own Omega Energy to amp his central blast.
• Although he thrashed a simulated construct, even using a new battle protocol, it was still a simulation and we've seen people sucking at battlefield plenty of times regardless of their training and success against simulations.

Until we see Hellbat outperforming Superman or any opponent Superman had trouble with, it's not fair to say Hellbat is 3 tiers above Superman.

@necrogod:I’ve read your post 31 and 34, this post is a direct response to them. Whilst what you have said there are a couple of contradictions to this theory you have proved.

One major flaw in your logic is that’s Superman upon meeting Eradicator, Superman immediately commenced in physical confrontation with the Eradicator who wasn’t trying whilst Clark himself wasn’t holding back, this was before he Eradicator told had Superman about the souls that Eradicator had harvested inside of himself. As such I will know divert your attention to the beginning of Superman(2016) issue 3.

As can be seen Superman who is not aware of the souls absorbed by Eradicator is slamming him with a flurry of JoJo Stat Platinum ora punches and Eradicator is Completely unharmed. The difference in power is comparable to that of the average 4 year old child attacking a grown man. This difference is further displayed in the scans directly after this.

As can be seen above Eradicator is without a doubt above superman in physical ability and superman was trying he’s hardest only to stunned to the point that he was unable to save he’s own family which lead to Eradicator having to save he’s family for him.

Another major issue with your theory is that Superman wasn’t holding back when Eradicator absorbed Krypto, Superman knew they had been absorbed but as to whether they were alive was unknown to him, hence why before the explosion of souls Eradicator was fighting a red eyed Superman who was definitely going all out. And was Still incapable of harming him until plot came and gave Superman the father-son punch which made Eradicator lose he’s jaw, which was incredibly inconsistent considering he failed to harm Eradicator up until that point.

Another major flaw is that even if we consider Superman to have been holding back Eradicator would have been at above Superman levels of power to begin with anyway. Eradicator has ALWAYS been at Superman levels of power of not slightly higher, that’s why following DOS and superman’s resurrection in post crisis Eradicator wanted to turn earth in krypton and superman failed to stop him which lead to superman going through right of passage to gain complete control over kryptonians artifacts and shutting down Eradicator. Eradicator has only ever really been dealt with temporarily with only Doomslayer having the adaptation to disrupt he’s energy from permanently and superman usually sending him to the phantom zone or assuming master control somehow of course that’s back in post crisis. Regardless Eradicator was amped in this story and is consistently superman level of not higher like Zod who both need a plan to be taken down, so Hellbat being able to do more damage then Superman makes Hellbat above superman regardless.

Another major issue is when you said blitz punches are inferior to haymakers which is true but doesn’t work in this context. The main reason being is this Superman is post crisis, or rather superman before he merged with New 52 Superman he hasn’t done it yet, and in post crisis he trained in martial arts with Batman and Wonder Woman multiple times so he has training as apposed to his Wife Lois who has no training whatsoever. Despite her lack of training she was able to do significantly less damage then Superman who actually has boxing experience from fighting Mohammad Ali underneath a red sun and he trained, if this was New 52 superman you’d have a better argument as the Krytonian martial art he knows seems to be inferior to earth standards. Even considering the form they have both used on panel they have both used haymakers/jabs so despite nit realising you subconsciously made the decision Hellbat did more damage and yet again subconsciously made an excuse to cover it up. The subconscious mind is our greatest enemy. But take what I said into consideration, they both threw the same punches, Hellbat was clearly more effective. As such Hellbat is bare minimum slightly above superman level if I’m being nice. This becomes more true with Batman piloting as he is superior to Lois in speed, strength, durability, tenacity, intelligence, experience and technique. Batman Would definitely make Eradicator experience greater pain, this is to acknowledge even Lois could make Eradicator with superman absorbed could harm Eradicator. And Hellbat only become irrefutably above superman level with the Devastator protocol, irrefutably.

I never once thought Hellbat was 3 tiers above Superman. But it is stronger then the strongest member of the Justice league it was made to handle league threats and is equipped with protocols to replicate every league memeber strengths, but you are correct it hasn’t shown all its abilities but it wouldn’t be able to handle a league threat if it was below superman. Think about that.

I like how one of the scans that're supposed to show how strong Eradicator is compared to Superman also features Eradicator struggling with a car-sized crystal.

@mbatz: Seems like you've made some good points. Only a few things I disagree.

• Although Rebirth Superman is essentially his Pre 52 self, this Supes is terribly inconsistent with his power level. Once he was stomping Shazam and Supergirl (twisted versions) and on another Supergirl effortlessly KO'd him by bullrushing him into a bridge (iirc) Once he was busting a planet while extremely weakened, on another occasion this guy needs 3-4 punches to shatter a mile-wide asteroid. Due to the terrible inconsistencies of Rebirth Superman, I don't think that we can claim him as a total equal to his well established Pre 52 self.
• Hellbat seemed to deal more damage yes. But it isn't the same as overpowering is it? Not to mention Jon's heat vision too made Eradicator grunt in pain.
• Even after Superman absorbed the Kryptonian life forces, broke free, and then started to unload on Eradicator with punches that shook the moon, Eradicator barely made a noise. By that time Eradicator only had Krypto within him yet he was still tanking the blows without grunting. So, it looks like this scenario is too F'd up to come to a conclusion. Because Full powered Eradicator didn't grunt when Superman unloaded but grunted when Hellbat punched and when Jon blasted with HV and during this battle, he was more powerful than in his first encounter. However, even with one soul left in him, he took almost all the blows without grunting in pain and these blows were shaking the moon. Now this is really rotting my brain.

Can you explain my third point? Because the scenario looks messed up..Eradicator himself being too inconsistent it seems or is there something else?

All your points considered, I would now say he has initial strength over Rebirth Superman. It's fair to say so I think. But, still he lacks notable blunt force durability, energy (except for Eradicator's heat blast), piercing and impact durability, notable stamina feats, and speed feats. However I cannot say Hellbat is above New 52 or Pre 52 Superman based on consistent feats. Rebirth Supes like I said tends to be inconsistent even though he is essentially Pre 52 self. The gap is vast in terms of everything between Pre 52 Superman and Rebirth Superman.

Also, if we pit this suit against let's say Bleeding Edge, Hellbat still doesn't have any mechanisms against hacking, enough speed against Ironman's vast travel and combat speed and several other offensive weapons.

I'll trust your word regarding the simulation but still, STILL, this suit needs more feats. On panel feats on consistent basis are better in terms of determining a power level of a character. For now, I'd agree that Hellbat starts with more strength than REBIRTH Superman who's a high tier anyway but still I don't put him ABOVE Superman overall because there's an abundance of feats in certain crucial areas.

Simply, I agree that Hellbat's initial strength>Rebirth Superman's strength but not Hellbat>>Superman in terms of overall stats.

I'd like to see how the Devastator protocol comes into play in a real battle. Real battle>>Simulated battle regardless of much of a genius Batman is and how prep'd he is.

@necrogod: I agree I probably should have emphasised that I only think Hellbat to be superior to consistent Rebirth and New 52 Superman. Not including outliers or PIS as Superman is a main character, he’s like the Goku of DC, constantly pulling power out of he’s ass least we forget Final Crisis: Beyond Superman issue 1 or Infinite Crisis issue 7. Or if you want rebirth power asspulls forger buster really. Even considering he was amped there is no way he could’ve made it before World Forger a being of that can keep up with flash could blitz World Forger before striking he’s anvil.

Overall Hellbat is a tool made for Batman, another thing I forgot to mention is the Hellbat is tool like the berserker armour, you give something to get power. Hellbat gives great power at the expense of the users metabolism. Lois Lane doesn’t compare to Batman in that regard you can almost say the Hellbat is depowered since it takes the minimum amount so to keep that human alive. Meanwhile Batman in the two times he has used it has told the Hellbat to use full power which almost killed him both times. Lois Lane does not have the tenacity or physical ability to bring out the best in the Hellbat you also have to keep in mind Batman is a man who sleeps for say 3 hours in a week sometime going weeks on end like when he was lost in the catacombs in Court of Owls. It wouldn’t even be wrong to say Batman isn’t human. To conclude only Batman can use the Hellbat to its fullest, Batman is a hero at the expense of himself that’s what the simulation showed when he had to bury himself, even Batman Hush shows Heroism is Batman’s compulsion, he’s addiction, he tried to save Riddler even knowing he’d die, poor catwoman realised she was ready to change for Batman, but Batman would always put himself in harms way even for a villain, and when an armour that grants great power at the expense of of metabolism, only Batman will throw he’s life out the window to accomplish he’s goals. If Batman fought Eradicator you can be he’s draw out all its power then use devastator protocol on top even if he was bed ridden for a month, and even after then, even after being offered help to heal you can bet he’d get up the following night in he’s injuries to fight.

Far out I got a bit poetic and emotional there, but what I was trying to say is Batman in Hellbat is stronger then Lois in the Hellbat. What was going on I went on a massive tangent.