Darth Vader confirmed not conflcited against Obi in OWK

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frozen

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#1 frozen  Moderator

More confirmation that Vader was not conflicted against Obi in OWK. From Di Agnosti:

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JediSympathiz3r

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Nice

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Eredin12

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#4  Edited By Eredin12

Nah, this is actually consistent with what the directors/ actors said when they, many times noted that he was conflicted. This scan only says that at the end after Obi beat him and cut his face open, there was nothing was left of Anakin

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Which is also what Chow said, but it was before that moment, that he was conflicted and half Anakin, half Vader:

“Actually, if we were going to use the Vader theme, I don't think we should use it until episode six, because *he's still half Anakin, half Vader at this point* . When his mask cracks open at the end, and he says 'You didn't kill Anakin Skywalker. I did,' you realize now he's Vader, now he's earned his 'Imperial March'."

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#5  Edited By frozen  Moderator

@eredin12:

This quote just aligns with Insider magazine, which explicitly says that Vader is not conflicted.

Any illusion that Darth Vader was masking some internal conflict was dispelled when he and Obi-Wan Kenobi fought again among the rocky spires of a barren moon.”

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Greysentinel365

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#6  Edited By Greysentinel365

You can tell this by just watching the show, or the BTS, or all the other material LFL has released that echos this.

LFL seems to have a clear cut take on this. See no reason to go against it.

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Eredin12

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#7  Edited By Eredin12
@frozen said:

@eredin12:

This quote just aligns with Insider magazine, which explicitly says that Vader is not conflicted.

Any illusion that Darth Vader was masking some internal conflict was dispelled when he and Obi-Wan Kenobi fought again among the rocky spires of a barren moon.”

It does not, because this quote states that only when his mask was cut, he was all Vader, which Chow also said, nobody actually claimed otherwise, it is just that Chow said that he was conflicted before that

As for that quote, I take that to mean conflict in regard to killing Kenobi. He might not be conflicted with that, but he as a person, was clearly conflicted as show makers said the number of times, not just once, and as Sidious himself also said, stating that his obessesion with revenge left Vader weakened

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LightorDark

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You’ll never win with Vader fans claiming he loses a fight unconflicted.

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Wolfrazer

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#9  Edited By Wolfrazer

Why would he even be conflicted to begin with at all, in any capacity? Didn't he get over this conflicted BS like after he got into the suit? That he felt more powerful than ever, that he embraced the Dark Side fully or something in the novels or comics? But 10 years into the suit, he's STILL conflicted? What? But then again, the TV shows seem to just ignore other stuff, so I guess it wouldn't be a surprise considering they also ignored other things..

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RedSithDisciple

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#10  Edited By RedSithDisciple  Online

I didn't doubt this.

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SonOfDarkness

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#11  Edited By SonOfDarkness

These quotes don’t prove anything other than the fact that Vader was willing to kill Obi Wan and not holding back. Which we already knew. But that doesn’t contradict Palpatine’s statement in the show about him being weakened by his feelings, or what Deborah Chow and Hayden said about him being half Anakin half Vader during the fight. In fact they align quite well with what Deborah said. So if anything this just confirms what she said and that he was weakened during the fight, not after.

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SonOfDarkness

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#12  Edited By SonOfDarkness

I’d like to add that Eredin12 is correct about the insider quote. The context makes it clear that the conflict it’s referring to is whether or not he wants to kill Obi Wan. See the parts I bolded:

“Any illusion that Darth Vader was masking some internal conflict was dispelled when he and Obi-Wan Kenobi fought again among the rocky spires of a barren moon.

During the fight, Vader almost killed Obi-Wan, attempting to crush his former master under a barrage of rocks from a position of higher ground, a reversal of fortunes compared to their fateful battle on Mustafar. On that occasion, the victorious Obi-Wan had left Vader to die in a pool of molten lava. Here, Vader showed no mercy, leaving the scene certain that he had finished Kenobi for good. That he had won.“

As you can see the parts I bolded make it clear that he wasn’t conflicted about killing Obi Wan. But there is still conflict between his Anakin and Vader persona. Or as Hayden put it, a struggle of identity. And according to Deborah Chow, we know that he was still half Anakin during the fight. Then he was back to being fully Vader when the mask was broken. Which aligns with this new quote Frozen found. So really nothing new here. Like I said before if anything this just further proves that the conflict occurred during the fight, not after.

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SonOfDarkness

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#13  Edited By SonOfDarkness

@frozen: which issue was this in from the encyclopedia?

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Zapan871

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Yeah, never doubted that. It has always been my take since the series was released that Vader was fully serious and lost in a fair fight.

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nassergrant19

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Yup nice finds.

Been saying this since it came out.

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Straight-Fire

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Only Vader stans high off copium thought he was.

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brogokudestroys

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When Vader says "You didn't kill Anakin Skywalker, I did", I always felt that was a pretty obvious sign that Vader was no longer conflicted and was fully entrenched in his self-hatred, so he didn't have much of an issue with killing Obi Wan.

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LightorDark

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Only Vader stans high off copium thought he was.

This 100%.

Vader loses, he’s conflicted! Vader wins, look how strong he is!

The only time I’d argue Vader is massively conflicted is during ROTJ when he fights Luke, but he literally turns back to the light in that fight, so it’s pretty obvious.

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#19  Edited By frozen  Moderator

@straight-fire said:

Only Vader stans high off copium thought he was.

This 100%.

Vader loses, he’s conflicted! Vader wins, look how strong he is!

The only time I’d argue Vader is massively conflicted is during ROTJ when he fights Luke, but he literally turns back to the light in that fight, so it’s pretty obvious.

Simple. He's unconflicted in both fights. Evidenced by him trying to kill Obi Wan (with rocks) and kill Luke (throwing a saber at him).

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SonOfDarkness

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Not exactly sure why some of you are disregarding what Palpatine explicitly states in the show and what was confirmed by the director just because of some quote which doesn’t even contradict what they said, but go ahead I guess.

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LightorDark

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@frozen said:
@lightordark said:
@straight-fire said:

Only Vader stans high off copium thought he was.

This 100%.

Vader loses, he’s conflicted! Vader wins, look how strong he is!

The only time I’d argue Vader is massively conflicted is during ROTJ when he fights Luke, but he literally turns back to the light in that fight, so it’s pretty obvious.

Simple. He's unconflicted in both fights. Evidenced by him trying to kill Obi Wan (with rocks) and kill Luke (throwing a saber at him).

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Vader wants to let go of his hate.

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Vader shows that he wants to be free from the Emperor, but he feels like he must obey him.

Vader is totally conflicted in ROTJ.

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SonOfDarkness

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#22  Edited By SonOfDarkness
@brogokudestroys said:

When Vader says "You didn't kill Anakin Skywalker, I did", I always felt that was a pretty obvious sign that Vader was no longer conflicted and was fully entrenched in his self-hatred, so he didn't have much of an issue with killing Obi Wan.

That didn’t happen until after the fight.

During the fight, he was still half Anakin according to the director of the show Deborah Chow:

“Actually, if we were going to use the Vader theme, I don't think we should use it until episode six, because he's still half Anakin, half Vader at this point. When his mask cracks open at the end,and he says 'You didn't kill Anakin Skywalker. I did,' you realize now he's Vader, now he's earned his 'Imperial March'."

He wasn’t conflicted about killing Obi Wan, but there was conflict between his two personas. This unbalanced him and weakened him which is what Palpatine explicitly states in the show:

Perhaps your feelings for your old master have left you weakened.”

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#23 frozen  Moderator

@lightordark:

Vader's also stated to be the strongest he's ever been in ROTJ. Sidious wouldn't replace Vader with Luke if he didn't think Luke was at the level of Vader. Per the words of Lucas, Luke is the only person who can face Vader and win as of ROTJ. The filmmaker thinks Luke is within that realm.

Frankly I don't see how you can think Vader losing to an Obi Wan who hasn't trained for 10 years or struggling against a non force sensitive Qira makes more sense than losing to a fully fledged Jedi knight with the potential of a Skywalker who has continuously honed his skills over a continuous 4 year period.

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@frozen said:

@lightordark:

Vader's also stated to be the strongest he's ever been in ROTJ. Sidious wouldn't replace Vader with Luke if he didn't think Luke was at the level of Vader. Per the words of Lucas, Luke is the only person who can face Vader and win as of ROTJ. The filmmaker thinks Luke is within that realm.

As of ROTJ, there is no one else. Yoda and Obi Wan are dead. Luke has potential. Obi Wan confirmed that in ESB. “It’s you and your abilities the Emperor wants.”

Lucas didn’t present ROTJ Vader as prime Vader, though. His comment comes from a broken down, post prime apprentice.

Frankly I don't see how you can think Vader losing to an Obi Wan who hasn't trained for 10 years or struggling against a non force sensitive Qira makes more sense than losing to a fully fledged Jedi knight with the potential of a Skywalker who has continuously honed his skills over a continuous 4 year period.

Occam’s razor—Vader isn’t heads and tails above everyone else, even some peak level humans.

Luke becomes the GOAT for sure. He is what Anakin could have been, but he isn’t above the PT titans as of ROTJ.

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#25 frozen  Moderator

@lightordark:

You seem to have issues with Vader being matched by Luke, but have little issue with Vader losing to an Obi Wan who hadn't trained for a decade.

Both scenarios are less than ideal, but at least Luke was continuously training and keeping active. Obi overcoming a decade of non training, neglect of his force ability and bad burns against Vader a few days prior to then suddenly beat Vader is a lot more far fetched than Luke's performance. Because there is already precedent for Luke reaching that tier. We see him tag Vader in ESB and show immense potential. Add another year of mental and spiritual growth and letting go of mental blocks, and the situation is at least plausible. Far more plausible than a non force user such as Qira giving him issues or an old hermit Obi who's done nothing but degrade over a decade. Obi was so weak in the first few eps that he's being maimed by regular thugs.

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#26 frozen  Moderator

@lightordark:

Occam’s razor—Vader isn’t heads and tails above everyone else, even some peak level humans.

If you have no issues with Qira giving him issues, then you shouldn't have issues with Luke matching him.

Obi Wan confirmed that in ESB. “It’s you and your abilities the Emperor wants.”

Difference is that Sidious actually thinks Luke is ready as of ROTJ. He even says this at the start of ROTJ, that Luke has become strong in the force and that it is now time for him to face Vader. This means that Sidious has assessed Luke's capability and decided he can now face Vader.

Lucas baked Luke being Vader tier into the script. It's in all the dialogue.

Obi Wan fought Vader in ANH and remarked in the From A Certain PoV novel that he has "no chance" of beating Vader. Same Obi Wan thinks Luke can fight Vader in ROTJ, despite fully knowing Vader's capabilities and stating he himself can't beat Vader. So Obi puts ROTJ Luke above his (ANH) self. ROTJ Luke > ANH Obi per Obi's own thinking. And this is not an inaccurate assessment, as Obi is fully aware of how strong ANH Vader is and confidently states he cannot beat Vader himself before dying in ANH.

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@frozen said:

@lightordark:

You seem to have issues with Vader being matched by Luke, but have little issue with Vader losing to an Obi Wan who hadn't trained for a decade.

Both scenarios are less than ideal, but at least Luke was continuously training and keeping active. Obi overcoming a decade of non training, neglect of his force ability and bad burns against Vader a few days prior to then suddenly beat Vader is a lot more far fetched than Luke's performance. Because there is already precedent for Luke reaching that tier. We see him tag Vader in ESB and show immense potential. Add another year of mental and spiritual growth and letting go of mental blocks, and the situation is at least plausible. Far more plausible than a non force user such as Qira giving him issues or an old hermit Obi who's done nothing but degrade over a decade. Obi was so weak in the first few eps that he's being maimed by regular thugs.

I have an issue with Luke, who has trained for a few years at best, being above Jedi and Sith who dedicated their entire life to training and fought in a war, giving them practical experience.

Kenobi still has all of his experience, though he would be rusty.

Luke would have to grow considerably faster than Anakin, the chosen one, in order to match a prime, unconflicted Vader.

If Vader is (supposedly) well above the PT titans, Luke being at that level in four years is a slap in the face to every PT Jedi and Sith.

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If Vader is (supposedly) well above the PT titans, Luke being at that level in four years is a slap in the face to every PT Jedi and Sith.

thats what you get for trying to compete with the real main character of Star Wars and an unhindered son of the chosen one.

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LightorDark

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@frozen said:

@lightordark:

Occam’s razor—Vader isn’t heads and tails above everyone else, even some peak level humans.

If you have no issues with Qira giving him issues, then you shouldn't have issues with Luke matching him.

If he isn’t above the PT titans, I take no issue with Luke matching him.

Obi Wan confirmed that in ESB. “It’s you and your abilities the Emperor wants.”

Difference is that Sidious actually thinks Luke is ready as of ROTJ. He even says this at the start of ROTJ, that Luke has become strong in the force and that it is now time for him to face Vader. This means that Sidious has assessed Luke's capability and decided he can now face Vader.

Lucas baked Luke being Vader tier into the script. It's in all the dialogue.

Fine, but Lucas didn’t have ROTJ Vader as prime Vader.

Obi Wan fought Vader in ANH and remarked in the From A Certain PoV novel that he has "no chance" of beating Vader. Same Obi Wan thinks Luke can fight Vader in ROTJ, despite fully knowing Vader's capabilities and stating he himself can't beat Vader. So Obi puts ROTJ Luke above his (ANH) self. ROTJ Luke > ANH Obi per Obi's own thinking. And this is not an inaccurate assessment, as Obi is fully aware of how strong ANH Vader is and confidently states he cannot beat Vader himself before dying in ANH.

ANH Vader was often thought of as prime Vader. ANH Obi Wan is post-prime Kenobi. It makes sense that Vader would beat that iteration of Obi Wan.

When ROTJ was written, Vader wasn’t in his prime. Luke matching him and having a higher potential made sense.

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#30 frozen  Moderator

@lightordark:

For what its worth I reversed my opinion on ROTJ Luke beating Yoda or Mace. I don't think he can.

I think he can beat the likes of Maul and Dooku though.

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#31  Edited By frozen  Moderator

@lightordark:

Kenobi still has all of his experience, though he would be rusty

10 years of non training and completely degrading. There's no way a Kenobi who is 10 years out of practice beating Vader to a pulp makes more sense than Luke matching him. Luke was constantly training and honing his skills. That activity counts for a lot.

It's basically equivalent to a young and up coming fighter getting a title shot and over performing. Whereas Obi returning would be like a really old ex champ coming out of retirement, losing his first comeback fight and then suddenly regaining the title. It makes no sense. The lack of activity should absolutely be a hindrance.

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LightorDark

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@frozen said:

@lightordark:

For what its worth I reversed my opinion on ROTJ Luke beating Yoda or Mace. I don't think he can.

I think he can beat the likes of Maul and Dooku though.

That’s fair, but I still don’t think he’s that high yet. As of Mando (9ABY), I’d say he PT high tier.

As of Shadow of the Sith (21ABY), he is beyond Yoda and Sidious’s prime.

@frozen said:

@lightordark:

Kenobi still has all of his experience, though he would be rusty

10 years of non training and completely degrading. There's no way a Kenobi who is 10 years out of practice beating Vader to a pulp makes more sense than Luke matching him. Luke was constantly training and honing his skills. That activity counts for a lot.

It's basically equivalent to a young and up coming fighter getting a title shot and over performing. Whereas Obi returning would be like a really old ex champ coming out of retirement, losing his first comeback fight and then suddenly regaining the title. It makes no sense. The lack of activity should absolutely be a hindrance.

Maybe he’s like the George Foreman of Jedi, coming back ten years later to win the championship.

Also, with Luke getting his power back instantly in TLJ, more of a precedent is set for getting something back than obtaining something you never had.

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#33 frozen  Moderator

@lightordark:

Maul's got absolutely nothing on ROTJ Luke. Luke's got Vader scaling + scaling above ANH Obi Wan, who curb stomped Maul. Maul has more training but vastly less potential, worse force feats and worse scaling.

Nah I don't think the Foreman comparison works. Foreman had to slowly build himself back and even then he lost a few times before winning the title back.

Remember that Cere Junda also went from struggling against inquisitors to being Vader tier within a couple of years simply due to letting go of mental blocks. Is Cere being Vader tier really more believable than Luke?

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#34  Edited By LightorDark
@frozen said:

@lightordark:

Maul's got absolutely nothing on ROTJ Luke. Luke's got Vader scaling + scaling above ANH Obi Wan, who curb stomped Maul. Maul has more training but vastly less potential, worse force feats and worse scaling.

The Vader scaling comes from a potentially conflicted Vader, though, so it’s not actual scaling.

Also, Luke has not one but two incredibly low showings in ROTJ that can’t be ignored.

Nah I don't think the Foreman comparison works. Foreman had to slowly build himself back and even then he lost a few times before winning the title back.

That was just more fun to say than anything else, especially with the impending release of the movie.

Remember that Cere Junda also went from struggling against inquisitors to being Vader tier within a couple of years simply due to letting go of mental blocks. Is Cere being Vader tier really more believable than Luke?

No, but Vader continuously being pushed by the Red Shirts and PT level Kenobi says way more about him than his opponents.

His showings against PT force users is too consistent to scale everyone up to him.

I’ll pose a question to you, now: Is it more likely that the PT Jedi that push Vader have exceeded ROTS Yoda and Sidious or that Vader isn’t that strong yet?

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#35  Edited By frozen  Moderator

@lightordark:

Vader being conflicted is irrelevant. He's got scaling outside of the fight. Obi thinks Luke is ready, we have other statements saying Luke is on par with Vader and scaling above ANH Obi who gave Vader a good fight. So there is no way around it. Luke is better than ANH Obi who gave Vader a tough fight.

Any low showing that Luke has is not as bad as Maul losing to a dog.

Vader can be below Yoda and still better than Maul or Dooku. He's explicitly stated to be stronger than either Maul or Dooku.

Dooku's low showing involve losing to pirates. LA Vader has better scaling than this (wiping out rebel platoon of similar numbers in Rogue One).

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LightorDark

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@frozen said:

@lightordark:

Vader being conflicted is irrelevant. He's got scaling outside of the fight. Obi thinks Luke is ready, we have other statements saying Luke is on par with Vader and scaling above ANH Obi who gave Vader a good fight. So there is no way around it. Luke is better than ANH Obi who gave Vader a tough fight.

Any low showing that Luke has is not as bad as Maul losing to a dog.

Vader can be below Yoda and still better than Maul or Dooku. He's explicitly stated to be stronger than either Maul or Dooku.

Dooku's low showing involve losing to pirates. LA Vader has better scaling than this (wiping out rebel platoon of similar numbers in Rogue One).

Vaders’s conflict disrupts his power scaling, so we don’t know where to place Luke in that moment.

Vader can be lower and still above, but it can’t be that different. Sidious was worried about Dooku after all.

Dooku’s loss to pirates was without his saber, and the fact that he reached for his saber meant he was confident enough to fight his way out, too.

I’ve never held Maul in the high tier conversation. Where Dooku was considered a threat by Sidious, Sidious made it pretty clear that Maul wasn’t a threat.

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#37 frozen  Moderator

@lightordark:

Except Obi doesn't think Vader is conflicted. So Obi thinks Luke of ROTJ is ready to face a non conflcited Vader. Same Obi who fought a non conflcited Vader in OWK and ANH. ANH Obi puts ROTJ Luke above himself, therefore Luke scales above a version of Obi who gave Vader a good fight. Nothing you've said addresses this.

Sidious explicitly said Vader was his most powerful apprentice in his journals. We have numerous other statements saying that Vader was more powerful than either Maul or Dooku. Dooku has no real statements to say he is more powerul than Vader. At best, he's a better duelist.

As far as force power goes, Luke's got better force feats than Dooku (shaking an ISD) and better scaling. Also better statements. Sidious holds ROTJ Luke above Dooku.

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@frozen said:

@lightordark:

Except Obi doesn't think Vader is conflicted. So Obi thinks Luke of ROTJ is ready to face a non conflcited Vader. Same Obi who fought a non conflcited Vader in OWK and ANH. ANH Obi puts ROTJ Luke above himself, therefore Luke scales above a version of Obi who gave Vader a good fight. Nothing you've said addresses this.

Obi Wan thinking it doesn’t make it true. Is Luke powerful, absolutely. Does he have the most potential in verse at the time, absolutely.

Was there anyone else to send to confront Vader and Sidious, no. Yoda died, Obi Wan was dead. Leia was untrained.

Sidious explicitly said Vader was his most powerful apprentice in his journals. We have numerous other statements saying that Vader was more powerful than either Maul or Dooku. Dooku has no real statements to say he is more powerul than Vader. At best, he's a better duelist.

I’m not doubting Vader was the most powerful apprentice. I’m doubting that Luke scales to a prime, unconflicted Vader as of ROTJ.

Either Vader‘s conflict kept him from being at full power, meaning Luke would scale below, or ROTJ Vader isn’t prime.

Since Disney has worked overtime to try and make ROTJ Vader prime, the former has to be true.

As far as force power goes, Luke's got better force feats than Dooku (shaking an ISD) and better scaling. Also better statements. Sidious holds ROTJ Luke above Dooku.

Shaking an ISD is a good feat, but it’s a bit overblown, especially if PT high tier Jedi and Sith are mountain level.

No Caption Provided

An ISD is about a mile long at best. The Executor is about 11 miles long. Shaking either of these is well below the PT titans in power.

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#39  Edited By frozen  Moderator

@lightordark:

So if your only retort is that Obi is wrong, then this seems very weak. This is basically an attempt to hand wave the underlying intent of the story. Obi has fought Vader three times after ROTS. Twice in his own show and once again in ANH. He's able to confidently declare that he cannot beat Vader at all in ANH. This same Obi, who is fully aware of Vader's capabilities, thinks Luke of ROTJ can face an unconflicted Vader and win. This aligns with the fact that Sidious thinks Luke can face an unconflicted Vader and the other quotes putting Luke at that tier.

George Lucas wrote ROTJ Luke as being > ANH Ben. This intent is more solidified in Disney's canon due to the From A Certain PoV novel.

Unless you think that ROTJ Vader is massively above ANH Vader, Obi's assessment of Luke is valid and aligns with the story intent. Skywalker Family at War also stated that Sidious arranged the fight between Luke and Vader in ROTJ because he thought Luke might actually prove more powerful than Vader. So Sidious is thinking along the same lines as Obi.

I don't consider Dooku a titan. He's buried below Yoda by dozens of quotes. He's inferior to most versions of suit Vader in the force. Titans are Yoda, Mace, Sidious and KFV.

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brogokudestroys

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Wait Vader wasn't conflicted against Luke in ROTJ? Luke is definitely more powerful than Vader, but part of what made that fight so good and especially Vader's death is that Vader was conflicted in that scene between the light and dark side. That's why he's finally able to make the right choice after a little "push" from Luke's words and sacrifice.

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SonOfDarkness

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@brogokudestroys: he was conflicted against Luke according to multiple sources including the SW databank, Skywalker: Family At War, and the movie itself.

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frozen

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#42 frozen  Moderator

@brogokudestroys: he was conflicted against Luke according to multiple sources including the SW databank, Skywalker: Family At War, and the movie itself.

And yet From A Certain PoV ROTJ releasing this month is emphasising that Luke was also conflicted.

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A_FINE_EDITION

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@frozen: those stories are pretty unreliable at times. They’ll either be retconned or contradicted by later material, like how the recent Yoda comics retconned stuff from the ESB and even ANH books. Plus this excerpt isn’t even specifically about fighting Vader. For all we know the book will also emphasize Vader’s conflict, considering we’re getting a story from Anakin’s POV.

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frozen

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#44 frozen  Moderator

@frozen: those stories are pretty unreliable at times. They’ll either be retconned or contradicted by later material, like how the recent Yoda comics retconned stuff from the ESB and even ANH books. Plus this excerpt isn’t even specifically about fighting Vader. For all we know the book will also emphasize Vader’s conflict, considering we’re getting a story from Anakin’s POV.

Luke's conflict is said in the film. "I will not fight you father" during the duel etc.

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A_FINE_EDITION

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#45  Edited By A_FINE_EDITION

@frozen: Luke also notes in that same fight moments later (and earlier during their conversation on Endor) that Vader’s thoughts betray him and that he can feel the good and the conflict within him. The scene on Endor also specifically leaves a moment at the end where Vader stands off to the side and ponders silently, which seems very deliberately hinting at the conflict he’d naturally try to deny is there. Vader’s conflict is just as emphasized in the film.

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#46 frozen  Moderator

@frozen: Luke also notes in that same fight moments later (and earlier during their conversation on Endor) that Vader’s thoughts betray him and that he can feel the good and the conflict within him. The scene on Endor also specifically leaves a moment at the end where Vader stands off to the side and ponders silently, which seems very deliberately hinting at the conflict he’d naturally try to deny is there. Vader’s conflict is just as emphasized in the film.

I think you can say they're both conflicted. But that people always emphasize Vader's conflict more and ignore that Luke didn't want to fight. Either way I don't think its important given that Luke has scaling to Vader outside of the fight.

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brogokudestroys

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#47  Edited By brogokudestroys

@frozen said:
@sonofdarkness said:

@brogokudestroys: he was conflicted against Luke according to multiple sources including the SW databank, Skywalker: Family At War, and the movie itself.

And yet From A Certain PoV ROTJ releasing this month is emphasising that Luke was also conflicted.

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Yeah, they were definitely conflicted. That's literally a core part of the original trilogy. Luke battling between the light and dark sides of the force. He beat Vader through rage (and proved himself stronger) and adhered to the Jedi way by not killing him. That's why his words were so important. Vader was also conflicted between his self hatred and love for his son.

It doesn't change that Luke beat Vader

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SonOfDarkness

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#48  Edited By SonOfDarkness

@frozen: @brogokudestroys: the difference is that Luke was strengthened by his anger, and Vader was weakened by his compassion.

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brogokudestroys

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@frozen: @brogokudestroys: the difference is that Luke was strengthened by his anger, and Vader was weakened by his compassion.

Both are conflicted though. They were both hindered in the fight. Luke beat Vader because he got angry. It's not much of an argument

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mr-yes

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A majority of arguments I see for Vader either assert that Vader would effortlessly one shot or ragdoll any Force User below him, extrapolates a few instances of Vader toying with irrelevant fodder to every one of Vader’s fights to declare that ”he wanted to draw out the fight,” or play the “he was conflicted” card (which is admittedly far less prevelant) where applicable, and whenever applicable, an amalgam of these factors. It’s tiresome among all else, and they’re the core reasons that effectively all Vader threads become tiresome by extension. It is tedious to read through the same recycled and disingenuous arguments in every Vader battle thread, and impossible to convince those who advocate for Vader due to said reasons otherwise, with no disrespect or offense intended.