Darth Sidious Overrated!

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Edited By Freedon_nadd_1

So, I have created this thread with the exact purpose of showing why Darth Sidious is one/if not the most overrated Sith character in the Star Wars Expanded Universe; and why the most Fandom Community gives him an instant win without analyzing or overrate his feats(Force powers+lightsaber combat), either of the situation and the opponent.

Note: This does not mean that Darth Sidious is a weakling, he is among the most powerful Dark Lords of the Sith who ever lived. He is on the fourth place, to be more exactly, surpassed only by Exar Kun[3], Darth Nihilus[2], and Lord Vitiate/Valkorion{KOTFE included}[1]

If you have doubts why Kun is three and Nihilus two, or Vitiate one, then I'll make another thread to explain why they are occupying such position.

To all extremely-biased Sidious fanboys...Sidious is not officially confirmed to be the "most powerful Sith Lord who ever lived".

He was considered to be such during his time by individuals such as Luke Skywalker, Darth Vader, Yoda, etc.

Once again, no one denies his extreme power in the dark side, but he does not know every Force power ever (much less all dark side powers). He only presumably knows all Force powers that were known by his predecessors in the Rule of Two. (It's not just the ability to "manipulate midi-chlorians to create life" that is not known to Palpatine)

So here it is the thread:

Remember, we only count his "nigh-abilities"

Darth Sidious

No Caption Provided

So we shall analyze his feats based on Silver2567 respect thread(By the way I have nothing with Silver2567's respect thread):

Powers

"Emperor Palpatine is regarded as the most powerful Sith to exist."

Vader imagined the power that could be his if he crushed Palpatine and established his own rule over the Empire. But first, he would need his own apprentice. By himself, he could not hope to defeat the most powerful Sith Lord the galaxy had ever known.

--Taken from Vader: The Ultimate Guide

Okay, we would tend to say that Sidious is truly the ultimate Sith Lord. But he isn't for a few reasons:

1.It was described by Vader{suit version, inferior to the organical one}

2.Vader has not met any other Dark Lord in order to make such a statement, therefore his statement remains invalid.

Vader: The "Ultimate" Guide was written back in 2005, and fails to take into account the fact that Darth Vader (before any of his limbs were ever severed and he became trapped in his armor) had potential in the Force to become twice as powerful as Palpatine.

Yoda went after Palpatine in the empty Senate chamber, but could not defeat the most powerful Sith Lord in history.

--Taken from The New Essential Chronology

1.The N.E.C was made from an in-universe perspective of the character Voren Na'al, therefore it has no validation, given the fact that this character has lived only in Palpatine's times and New Jedi Order times.

Beyond the vision of the Jedi Knights, somewhere within the darkness, the greatest master of evil ever to use Sith power bides his time. As his strength grows, his plans begin to shape the course of the galaxy, and his snares await the unsuspecting.

--Taken from The Complete Visual Dictionary

If we analyze better the content, we can see that the author emphasizes on Sidious'spolitical and military power. There's no indication of his raw Force power.

"The greatest master of evil ever to use Sith power" does not make any indication of how powerful Palpatine really was compared to many past Sith Lords. Also, keep in mind that the Complete Visual Dictionary was released back in 2006. Hardly recent.

When Yoda crosses sabers with the movie's arch-villain, he doesn't launch into a pinwheeling display of acrobatics, as he did against Count Dooku in Episode II. Instead, Yoda faces the dark side's fury, channeled by the most powerful Sith Lord in history. "Rob Coleman wanted Yoda to feel the power of his enemy," says Wheless, "like a force he's never dealt with before."

--Taken from Insider #86: Yoda's Right Arm

Neither Rob Coleman and "Wheless" were responsible for Insider #86, which was also written in 2006. Rob Coleman worked for Industrial Light & Magic on both Episodes II & III, neither of which were (of course) part of the Expanded Universe.

He is named the most powerful of the Banite Sith.

The Sith have waited millennium for the birth of one who is powerful enough to return them from hiding. Darth Sidious is that one—the Sith's revenge on the Jedi order for having nearly eradicated the practitioners of the dark side of the Force.

--Taken from The Complete Visual Dictionary

Exactly, the strongest of the Banite Sith, and I am still suspicious if it makes reference of his Force power, or military and political power.

The Sith Order, in hiding for a millennium, had awaited the birth of one who was powerful enough to return the Order to prominence. Darth Sidious was the fulfillment of that prophecy, capable of exacting the Sith's revenge on the Jedi for having nearly eradicated the practitioners of the dark side of the Force.

--Taken from The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia

The same thing, it makes reference only to the Banite Lords.

Darth Sidious proved to be the grim culmination of a thousand years of Sith philosophy and teachings.

--Taken from Jedi vs Sith: The Essential Guide to the Force

Here it makes reference to his knowledge, not strength in the Force.

When the Sith finally emerged from a thousand years of watching and waiting, they numbered—in accordance with the tradition set down by Darth Bane—only two. The most powerful of these was Darth Sidious, an ice-cold, diabolically calculating genius equipped with the strength of the dark side of the Force, as well as an enormous wealth of Sith artifacts, equipment, and knowledge.

--Taken from The Dark Side Sourcebook

I like that it emphasise his power by adding his enormous wealth of Sith artifacts, equipment, and knowledge.

Palpatine trained under Plagueis until he became more powerful and killed his master.

In truth, Palpatine was well versed in the ways of the Force, having been apprentice to Darth Plagueis the Wise, a Sith Lord who was a master of arcane and unnatural knowledge. In true Sith tradition, Palpatine murdered his Master upon receiving the skill and ability to do so.

It does not say anything of Sidious becoming stronger than Sidious, only that he followed the Rule of Two and through cunning and deception he managed to kill Plagueis.

--Taken from The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia

Sidious served for many decades as the apprentice of Darth Plagueis, learning diligently at the feet of his Master. Once he possessed all of Plagueis' secrets, he retired him.

--Taken from Insider #88: Heritage of the Sith

This says nothing of Darth Sidious's raw strength in the Force.

"My own Master, Darth Plagueis, made the grave error of teaching me too much, at which point he became unnecessary."

--Taken from Jedi vs Sith: The Essential Guide to the Force

Nothing here, as well. Only that Sidious thought his Master had nothing to teach him.

Not to mention that this book "exists" also as an in-universe publication, written by Tionne Solusar. These are always flawed sources if the respective characters lived in different times and make different statements.

The Emperor is more powerful than any of his Force sensitive subjects.

Unknown to the Rebels, the Emperor had already laid the groundwork for the perpetual rule of his New Order. He had turned a Jedi into his new dark apprentice, the terrifying Darth Vader. Vader himself trained apprentices. And the Emperor created a corps of loyal, Force-skilled minions to maintain his rule. Most powerful of all, of course, was the Emperor himself.

--Taken from The Dark Side Sourcebook

These were meant to be inferior in comparision to him, so...

Sidious is stated to be the most powerful dark sider.

Inside the spacious interior of the Galactic Senate chamber, Yoda challenged the Emperor. The two engaged in a spectacular duel—a contest between the most powerful practitioners of the Force’s light and dark sides.

--Taken from The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia

Yoda's far from the most powerful Jedi in history, but he's the grandmaster and was the most powerful of his time before Luke fully came into the picture. This is a flawed source into itself, since Luke>Yoda.

It quickly became clear to Luke that this decrepit and seemingly defenseless old man was masterfully adept in the ways of the Dark Side of the Force. Indeed, as Vader had warned, the Emperor had become the Dark Side's most powerful expression.

--Taken from the Dark Empire endnotes

Considering that Palpatine was the most powerful Sith of his time, of course he'd become the Dark Side's "most powerful" expression. All because Anakin never realized his full potential. It still fails to mention "of all time", if it really meant to say he was the most powerful Sith ever.

Even Ulic Qel-Droma would be envious of Palpatine. He had succeeded where all others had failed in taming the Dark Side.

--Taken from Dark Empire Sourcebook

The Dark Side Sourcebook was written back in 2001. Ulic Qel-Droma wasn't even a "Sith". Palpatine's "taming" of the Dark Side still resulted in Dark-Side corruption, and most obviously many other Sith characters weren't introduced yet back in 2001.

He notes that his powers have grown tenfold over the decades he had trained with Plagueis.

Sidious knew that his own powers had increased tenfold over the decades, but he couldn’t be certain he had learned all of Plagueis’s secrets—“his sorcerer’s ways,” as the Sun Guards referred to them—including the ability to prevent beings from dying.

--Taken from Darth Plagueis

That doesn't mean he had grown stronger, because that's a statement made by himself, not an outer-statement. Just because Krayt has said he became stronger than Nihilus, it doesn't mean he had become.

Sidious' powers increase upon Plagueis' death.

A tremor took hold of the planet.

Sprung from death, it unleashed itself in a powerful wave, at once burrowing deep into the world’s core and radiating through its saccharine atmosphere to shake the stars themselves. At the quake’s epicenter stood Sidious, one elegant hand vised on the burnished sill of an expansive translucency, a vessel filled suddenly to bursting, the Force so strong within him that he feared he might disappear into it, never to return. But the moment didn’t constitute an ending so much as a true beginning, long overdue; it was less a transformation than an intensification—a gravitic shift.

A welter of voices, near and far, present and from eons past, drowned his thoughts. Raised in praise, the voices proclaimed his reign and cheered the inauguration of a new order. Yellow eyes lifted to the night sky, he saw the trembling stars flare, and in the depth of his being he felt the power of the dark side anoint him.

Slowly, almost reluctantly, he came back to himself, his gaze settling on his manicured hands. Returned to the present, he took note of his rapid breathing, while behind him the room labored to restore order. Air scrubbers hummed—costly wall tapestries undulating in the summoned breeze. Prized carpets sealed their fibers against the spread of spilled fluids. The droid shuffled in obvious confliction. Sidious pivoted to take in the disarray: antique furniture overturned; framed artwork askew. As if a whirlwind had swept through. And facedown on the floor lay a statue of Yanjon, one of four law-giving sages of Dwartii.

A piece Sidious had secretly coveted.

Also sprawled there, Plagueis: his slender limbs splayed and elongated head turned to one side. Dressed in finery, as for a night on the town.

And now dead.

Or was he?

Uncertainty rippled through Sidious, rage returning to his eyes. A tremor of his own making, or one of forewarning? Was it possible that the wily Muun had deceived him? Had Plagueis unlocked the key to immortality, and survived after all? Never mind that it would constitute a petty move for one so wise—for one who had professed to place the Grand Plan above all else. Had Plagueis become ensnared in a self-spun web of jealousy and possessiveness, victim of his own engineering, his own foibles?

If he hadn’t been concerned for his own safety, Sidious might have pitied him. Wary of approaching the corpse of his former Master, he called on the Force to roll the aged Muun over onto his back. From that angle Plagueis looked almost as he had when Sidious first met him, decades earlier: smooth, hairless cranium; humped nose, with its bridge flattened as if from a shock-ball blow and its sharp tip pressed almost to his upper lip; jutting lower jaw; sunken eyes still brimming with menace—a physical characteristic rarely encountered in a Muun. But then Plagueis had never been an ordinary Muun, nor an ordinary being of any sort.

Sidious took care, still reaching out with the Force. On closer inspection, he saw that Plagueis’s already cyanotic flesh was smoothing out, his features relaxing.

Faintly aware of the whir of air scrubbers and sounds of the outside world infiltrating the luxurious suite, he continued the vigil; then, in relief, he pulled himself up to his full height and let out his breath. This was no Sith trick. Not an instance of feigning death, but one of succumbing to its cold embrace. The being who had guided him to power was gone.

Wry amusement narrowed his eyes.

The Muun might have lived another hundred years unchanged. He might have lived forever had he succeeded fully in his quest. But in the end—though he could save others from death—he had failed to save himself.

A sense of supreme accomplishment puffed Sidious’s chest, and his thoughts unreeled.

Well, then, that wasn’t nearly as bad as we thought it might be...

Rarely did events play out as imagined, in any case. The order of future events was transient. In the same way that the past was reconfigured by selective memory, future events, too, were moving targets. One could only act on instinct, grab hold of an intuited perfect moment, and spring into action. One heartbeat late and the universe would have recomposed itself, no imposition of will sufficient to forestall the currents. One could only observe and react. Surprise was the element absent from any periodic table. A keystone element; a missing ingredient. The means by which the Force amused itself. A reminder to all sentient beings that some secrets could never be unlocked.

Confident that the will of the dark side had been done, he returned to the suite’s window wall. Two beings in a galaxy of countless trillions, but what had transpired in the suite would affect the lives of all of them. Already the galaxy had been shaped by the birth of one, and henceforth would be reshaped by the death of the other. But had the change been felt and recognized elsewhere? Were his sworn enemies aware that the Force had shifted irrevocably? Would it be enough to rouse them from self-righteousness? He hoped not. For now the work of vengeance could begin in earnest.

His eyes sought and found an ascending constellation of stars, one of power and consequence new to the sky, though soon to be overwhelmed by dawn’s first light. Low in the sky over the flatlands, visible only to those who knew where and how to look, it ushered in a bold future. To some the stars and planets might seem to be moving as ever, destined to align in configurations calculated long before their fiery births. But in fact the heavens had been perturbed, tugged by dark matter into novel alignments. In his mouth, Sidious tasted the tang of blood; in his chest, he felt the monster rising, emerging from shadowy depths and contorting his aspect into something fearsome just short of revealing itself to the world.

The dark side had made him its property, and now he made the dark side his.

Breathless, not from exertion but from the sudden inspiration of power, he let go of the sill and allowed the monster to writhe through his body like an unbroken beast of range or prairie.

Had the Force ever been so strong in anyone?

Sidious had never learned how Plagueis’s own Master had met his end. Had he died at Plagueis’s hand? Had Plagueis, too, experienced a similar exultation on becoming a sole Sith Lord? Had the beast of the end time risen then to peek at the world it was to inhabit, knowing its release was imminent?

--Taken from Darth Plagueis

Most of these are pure hyperboles, and that was the way how Sidious reacted to his spirit and body corrupted by the dark side of the Force. Not to mention that all those "voices" were just in his head.

He becomes more powerful after his death at Endor.

Resurrected in a youthful clone body, Palpatine does not reveal himself immediately. Studying the dark side of the Force to become more powerful, his education results in three manifestos: The Book of Anger, The Weakness of Inferiors, and The Creation of Monsters.

--Taken from The Ultimate Visual Guide

It says nothing about his strength in the Force, but more likely about his earned Dark Side Kowledge over the time, that's why his works are mentioned.

Palpatine knew precisely why the Empire couldn’t last without his dread power: he had designed it that way. No one ever suspected how much he relied on the Dark Side of the Force. He shaped those of his government by using the Force against them. He used it to control his fleets and to drive his soldiers on to victory. He used it to destroy his enemies from a distance and learn of conspiracies against him. Without it, there was no way the Empire could endure, as he had designed it. The Dark Side flowed through him like some primordial ichor and was the key to all his power.

Soon he was ready to strike. Fully healed and in greater control of the Dark Side than ever, he finally acted to end the Mutiny.

--Taken from Dark Empire Sourcebook

Yes, he relied a lot on the Force; and yes he was the strongest Lord of his times.

Darth Maul feels Sidious' arrival on Mandalore as a roiling in the Force and perceives his presence in the Force as a hypnotizing and terrifying dark sun.

The feeling had begun as a faint stirring in the Force, like the tiniest ripple of something moving slowly through deep water, far away but drawing steadily closer. It intensified, until it felt like the Force itself was roiling, heaving like the sea in the grip of an enormous storm.

“I sense a presence,” Maul warned Savage. “A presence I haven’t felt since...”

And then Maul knew.

“Master,” he said, leaning forward on the throne.

The commandos guarding the royal chamber reached for their throats. As Maul watched, an unseen forced lifted them high in the air, then slammed them to the floor, where they lay motionless in their red-and-black armor. The doors opened, then closed behind a figure in dark robes. A deep cowl hid most of the face, leaving only a pale chin and a downturned mouth visible. To most eyes the man in those simple robes of rough cloth was unremarkable, just another being making his way in the universe. But to those who could feel the Force he was anything but ordinary. To them, he was a dark sun blazing with power that was simultaneously hypnotizing and terrifying to behold.

Darth Sidious, the reigning Dark Lord of the Sith, had come to Mandalore.

Savage stared at the new arrival in astonishment, transfixed by the sight.

--Taken from Darth Maul: Shadow Conspiracy

Maul is highly inferior to Sidious and has no idea of any dread Lords like Nihilus, Vitiate or Exar Kun.

Count Dooku sees Palpatine's power through the Force as an event horizon.

Now the scene below subtly altered, though to the physical eye there was no change. Powered by the dark side, Dooku's perception took the measure of those below him with exhilarating precision.

Kenobi was luminous, a transparent being, a window onto a sunlit meadow of the Force.

Skywalker was a storm cloud, flickering with dangerous lightning, building the rotation that threatens a tornado.

And then there was Palpatine, of course: he was beyond power. He showed nothing of what might be within. Though seen with the eyes of the dark side itself, Palpatine was an event horizon. Beneath his entirely ordinary surface was absolute, perfect nothingness. Darkness beyond darkness.

A black hole of the Force.

--Taken from Revenge of the Sith

This is clearly Dooku's perception of those characters. Perception is an opinionated viewpoint. (This is why eye-witness testimony has always been the weakest form of evidence) I will gladly take another quote that refers to Sidious as a black hole, but until then Sidious's power level is more accurately described by something that generates enormous amounts of energy, rather than sucking it into an empty void.

Palpatine himself is a Force nexus.

The key to Luke's turning is the moment when he and Leia realize the Emperor is no longer defined by his physical form, but has become a chaotic nexus of dark energies that swell and burst open the fabric of space, tearing apart everything in the vicinity, human and machine.

--Taken from the Dark Empire endnotes

True, but at some point even Malgus was considered to be such one by a certain character, even Vitiate is one, even Exar Kun became one. This is about corruption, not one's strength in the Force. For example Darth Krayt reached in heights of powers near Darth Sidious's strength[a little difference], yet he was not a dark side nexus, because he was not corrupted completely.

His death over Endor leaves a small Force nexus above the Sanctuary Moon.

Any unusual localization, or vergence, of dark side Force energy. These strange locales emanated the dark side of the Force, and were considered focal points of power for dark side users. As such, they were often guarded by Jedi Knights to prevent their discovery and exploitation. Known dark side nexuses included the twisted tree-cave on Dagobah, Halagad Ventor's hermitage on Trinta, and a "stain" of dark side energy that hovered over Endor following the defeat of the Emperor.

--Taken from The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia

This spot in orbit over Endor were tainted by the death of dark side users, not by Palpatine himself(alone)

Before receiving any training in the Force, Palpatine in a fit of rage causes blossoms to recoil and Plagueis' droid 11-4D to step back.

Plagueis made a soothing gesture and explained in great detail what had taken place. Concluding, he said, "He threatened, too, to place you out of reach."

All the while Plagueis spoke, Palpatine was storming through circles on the narrow path, shaking his head in anger and balling his fists. "He can't do this!" he snarled. He hasn't the right! I won't allow it!"

Palpatine's fury buffeted Plagueis. Blossoms growing along the sides of the pathway folded in on themselves, and their pollinators began to buzz in agitation. FourDee reacted, as well, wobbling on its feet, as if in the grip of a powerful electromagnet. Had this human truly been born of flesh-and-blood parents? Plagueis asked himself. When, in fact, he seemed sprung from nature itself. Was the Force so strong in him that it had concealed

itself?

--Taken from Darth Plagueis

It is a clear description of his Force power, but that does not make him the strongest Sith ever[among the others he is]

Sidious' power upsets the balance of the Force on the dark side world of Vjun and causes a weather storm merely by the emergence of a holographic image of himself.

Outside, the wind picked up another notch, shrieking and groaning among the eleven chimneys as if to announce the arrival of a hideous guest. Dooku's comm console chimed. He glanced over, expecting the daily report from General Grievous, or perhaps a message from Asajj Ventress. He reached over to open the channel, ecognized the digital signature of the incoming transmission, jabbed the channel open, and snapped to his feet. "You called, my Master?"

The hologrammic projector on his desk sprang to life, and the wavering form of Darth Sidious regarded him. As always the picture was oozy and unclear, as if light itself were uneasy in the presence of the Lord of the Sith. Dark robes, purple shadows—a patch of skin, pale and mottled under his hooded cloak like a fungus growing under a rotten log. From under heavy lids the Master's eyes, snake-cold and serpent-wise, regarded him.

"What would you have of me, Master?"

"From you? Everything, of course." Darth Sidious sounded amused. "There was a time when I wasn't sure if you would be able to overcome that...independent streak of yours. After all, you were born to one of the wealthiest families in the galaxy, with gifts and abilities far, far greater than any amount of wealth could bestow. Your understanding is deep; your will, adamant. Is it any wonder you should be proud? Why, how could it be otherwise?"

Dooku said, "I have always served you well and faithfully, my Master."

"You have. But you must admit, your spirit was not made for fidelity. After all, a man who will not bow to the Jedi Council, or even Master Yoda...I wondered if perhaps loyalty was too mean, too confining a thing to ask from so great a being as yourself."

Dooku tried to smile. "The war progresses well. Our plans are on schedule. I have dealt out your deaths, your schemes, your betrayals. I have paid for your war with my time, my riches, my friends, and my honor."

"Holding nothing back?" Sidious asked lightly.

"

Nothing.

I swear it."

"Excellent," Darth Sidious said. "Yoda came to the Chancellor's office this morning. He is going on a very special mission. Top secret." He laughed, a harsh sound like the bark of a crow. The wind rose again, shrieking around the mansion like a creature in torment. "When he arrives, Dooku...see that you treat him

as he deserves

."

Darth Sidious laughed. Dooku wanted to laugh along, but couldn't quite manage it before his Master cut the connection and disappeared.

Dooku paced his office. With the end of Sidious' call, the storm had slackened, and the shrieking wind outside now only sobbed quietly under the gables of Château Malreaux.

--Taken from Yoda: Dark Rendezvous

For the fourth strongest Sith Lord, that is not an "impressive" feat. And the cause of the Vjun storms were caused by the planet's dark side nexus. It is just too ludicrous to say that Sidious was the cause of the planet's lightning storms, that's why it has the word "if". This description tries to attribute the weather's manifestation to Darth Sidious's dark side nature to bring an understanding of what lay in Sidious's heart..

Leia records that she felt palpable discomfort and fear simply by being in the presence of the Emperor on her first meeting with him.

"But I was also overwhelmed by the knowledge that Vader was not only Luke's father, but mine, too. My memories raced to my first encounter with Vader. It was during my first trip to Coruscant, when I'd accompanied my father—that is, Bail Organa—to a reception for the Emperor. In hindsight, I'm surprised I was allowed to go, as it exposed me to both the Emperor and Vader. Granted, I'd never demonstrated any Force powers at that point, so perhaps Bail Organa thought it was relatively safe. I never knew anyone who guarded his secrets as well as Bail Organa.

The reception was at the Imperial Palace. As things turned out, it seems neither Sith Lord sensed anything about my true identity, for if they had, surely they would have done something. That's not to say their powers were weak. I'd meant to confront Palpatine and tell him what I thought of his xenophobic Empire, but as he approached me in the reception line, I was struck numb with fear. I remember thinking it was as if he were pitch-black inside. Vader loomed behind him like a malevolent shadow, and there was no doubt in my mind that if I had found the courage to speak my mind to the Emperor, Vader would have killed me on the spot."

--Taken from Jedi vs Sith: The Essential Guide to the Force

Great feat, but the same thing Scourge{Scourge>Leia} had felt being in the presence of Lord Vitiate. an even greater distress.

The Emperor has learned virtually every application of the Force there is from all different eras.

Palpatine has spent decades studying the most arcane and esoteric Jedi disciplines. It is believed that he has mastered nearly all the known powers, previously unknown powers, and devises new ones at his pleasure.

It contains the word "believed", that does not make it a true statement, this is not the disco-world where "believed" becomes "true"..

--Taken from Dark Empire Sourcebook

Force Storm

Storm is an ability in which a user manipulates various Force energies to tear a rift in space and time and open a wormhole that has high order destructive power, as well as the ability to transport matter across space and time.

Palpatine describes the creation of his Force Storm in his Book of Anger.

"I have learned that Anger and Will, joined together, are the greatest Power.

I have learned to meditate upon Anger and Will with clarity and precision, and I have learned to open the hidden reservoirs of Dark Side Power.

Anger concentrated by Will in the vital center of the body creates a portal through which vast energies are released—the energies of the dark side of the Force.

Standing watch with the mind, in my meditation of Anger, I have slain my enemies from great distances, through the dark side Power that permeates the galaxy. I have created lightning, and unleashed its destructive fire.

Using this knowledge, I can unleash the dark side energies that are all around us, even to shatter the fabric of space itself. In this way, I have created storms.

Through a simple act of Will, I can generate Force Storms, energy storms that are vastly destructive and virtually unstoppable. Although triggering such storms requires merely thought and inclination, I admit I am not yet able to completely control the phenomenon. Among my goals is to perfect this control."

--Taken from Jedi vs Sith: The Essential Guide to the Force

Palpatine could createa Force Storm, but he never achieved "complete" control. He admitted as much that he had limited control over the storm, but planned to find a way to make sure he could.

"The churning energy mass of a Force Storm can consume everything it touches, for at its eye is pure hate. Just as a black hole devours a star, this storm can swallow armies and fold space."

--Taken from Book of Sith: Secrets from the Dark Side

The effect of Force Storm is explained.

This is perhaps the single most destructive Force power known. This power allows the Jedi to twist the space-time continuum to create vast storms of force. The power also allows limited control of these storms. Capable of creating annihilating vortices, the storms can swallow whole fleets of spaceships or tear the surfaces off worlds.

--Taken from Dark Empire Sourcebook and Tales of the Jedi Companion

Nice to know that's a Jedi power, and there are other who can use them. So that doesn't make Sidious the ultimate god.

"The Force Storm is truly an awe-inspiring demonstration of pure natural energy. After using the Force to open a hyperspace wormhole, tremendous shockwaves will ripple through the fabric of space. Due to the Force Storm's potential for abuse, the Council has recently classified it as a dark side power."

"The Reborn Emperor used this at Da Soocha. It has the power to kill worlds."

—Luke

--Taken from The Jedi Path: A Manual for Students of the Force

Vast energy storms that connect wildly disparate spots across the galaxy, hyperspace wormholes are unpredictable and devastating. It was to the Rebel Alliance's detriment that Emperor Palpatine was able to not only control these storms, but to create them.

--Taken from Handbook Volume Three: Dark Empire

After Luke is funneled through the wormhole, Mon Mothma comments on the incident, saying that there have been Storms sent to multiple planets.

Mon Mothma: The energy storm that took Commander Skywalker, this is not an isolated event. Similar Storms have been detected in several systems.

--Taken from the Dark Empire audio drama

Although the audio drama identifies the magnetic storm Solo encounters in Coruscant's upper atmosphere as the Force storm sent by Palpatine to capture Skywalker, this Force storm did not actually drop out of hyperspace until some time later, when it brushed past the Antares Six.

His body mortally wounded by Han Solo, Palpatine tracked down the Solos and desperately sought to transfer his fading essence to the infant Anakin Solo. He was blocked and absorbed by the dying Jedi, Brand, who promised that he and all the other Jedi spirits would ensure the dark sider never returned—a fate Palpatine had feared above all others. The Emperor's reign was over for good.

--Taken from The Official Star Wars Fact File #120

Of course they would. I think in Tom Veitch's mind, all the spirits live in the same place. Not to mention that if they weren't make sure of Palpatine's demise, then the Sith or darkside spirits would have helped him to return back to the living world.

By sheer force of will, Palpatine is able to return from the void with no host tethering his spirit to the physical realm.

Palpatine's body was destroyed. Separated from his clones, Palpatine was forced to survive in the maddening, bodiless existence of the void. Through sheer will he retained his identity, crossing the gulf of space to again take up residence in his clone body.

--Taken from The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia

It makes no reference to the Chaos dimension, but to the void of the galaxy, the immensity of space. A feat, however, I am not denying it.

Palpatine recalls that he and Plagueis had made headway in learning to control midi-chlorians years earlier.

Palpatine’s eyes sparkled in sadistic delight. Valorum was getting everything he deserved. He had demonstrated some diplomatic skill during the Stark Hyperspace War, but his election to the chancellorship had more to do with a pedigree that included three Supreme Chancellors and deals he had cut with influential families like the Kalpanas and the Tarkins of Eriadu. His adulation of the Jedi Order was well known; less so his hypocrisy—much of his family wealth derived from lucrative contracts his ancestors had entered into with the Trade Federation. His election seven years earlier had been one of the signs Plagueis had been waiting for—the return to power of a Valorum—and had followed on the heels of a remarkable breakthrough Plagueis and Sidious had engineered in manipulating midi-chlorians. A breakthrough the Muun had described as “galactonic.” Both of them suspected that the Jedi had sensed it as well, light-years distant on Coruscant.

--Taken from Darth Plagueis

Given the fact that Plagueis's name is written first, this means that Sidious was still under his tutelage and was still learning.

Sidious and Plagueis perform meditative rituals in which they manipulate midi-chlorians and exercise dominion over the Force to imbalance the Force toward the dark side, spreading darkness throughout the galaxy.

While midi-chlorians appeared to resist manipulation of a sort that might imperil the balance of the Force, they remained passive, even compliant, in the case of a weak-willed being manipulated by one who was strong in the Force.

“The Bith—Venamis...”

“Dispatched by Tenebrous to test me—to eliminate me had I failed. But Venamis has been a gift; essential in helping me unlock some of the deepest secrets of the Force. Every creature you have glimpsed or sensed here has been a similar blessing, as you will see when I lead you into the mysteries.”

“What did the droid mean when it said the Magister’s pregnancies?”

Beneath the breath mask, Plagueis might have quirked a smile. “It means that the pregnancies were not achieved by normal means of conception, but rather through the Force.”

Surprise and disbelief mingled in Sidious’s blue eyes. “The Force?”

“Yes,” Plagueis said pensively. “But I failed to exercise due caution. As we attempt to wrest the powers of life and death from the Force, as we seek to tip the balance, the Force resists our efforts. Action and reaction, Sidious. Something akin to the laws of thermodynamics. I have been audacious, and the Force has tested me the way Tenebrous sought to. Midi-chlorians are not easily persuaded to execute the dictates of one newly initiated in the mysteries. The Force needs to be won over, especially in work that involves the dark side. It must be reassured that a Sith is capable of accepting authority. Otherwise it will thwart one’s intentions. It will engineer misfortune. It will strike back.”

Palpatine’s eyes sparkled in sadistic delight. Valorum was getting everything he deserved. He had demonstrated some diplomatic skill during the Stark Hyperspace War, but his election to the chancellorship had more to do with a pedigree that included three Supreme Chancellors and deals he had cut with influential families like the Kalpanas and the Tarkins of Eriadu. His adulation of the Jedi Order was well known; less so his hypocrisy—much of his family wealth derived from lucrative contracts his ancestors had entered into with the Trade Federation. His election seven years earlier had been one of the signs Plagueis had been waiting for—the return to power of a Valorum—and had followed on the heels of a remarkable breakthrough Plagueis and Sidious had engineered in manipulating midi-chlorians. A breakthrough the Muun had described as “galactonic.” Both of them suspected that the Jedi had sensed it as well, light-years distant on Coruscant.

And so it had been left largely to Sidious to bring the same fervor to the manipulation of events in the mundane world that Plagueis brought to the manipulation of midi-chlorians. Instead of challenging each other, they had both dedicated themselves to executing the Grand Plan. Political mastery and mastery of the Force. Someday soon, the Sith would wield both, with Sidious the face of the former and Plagueis behind the scenes, advising him about the latter. Like Plagueis, Sidious had moved judiciously, for unintended repercussions in the real world could be as damaging to the Sith imperative as blowback from the Force. The fact that the Force had not struck back argued that their partnership was something unique and in accordance with the will of the Force. Plagueis’s self-imposed isolation had taken a toll on some of the plans he and Sidious had engineered for the Trade Federation and other groups. But Plagueis had made what amounted to a full recovery from his injuries, and the dark side was no longer simply on the ascendant but risen and climbing toward the zenith.

Plagueis began to pace the cool floor. “No Sith have ever been in the position in which we now find ourselves, Darth Sidious: in step with the reemergence of the dark side, fortified by the signs and omens, certain that revenge and victory are near at hand. If the Jedi would abide by their philosophy of acting in accordance with the Force, of doing what is right, they would roll over for the dark. But they resist. Yoda and the rest of the Council members will double their meditation sessions in an effort to peer into the future, only to discover it clouded and unknowable. Only to discover that complacency has opened the door to catastrophe.

“If indeed they have been acting in accordance with the Force, how could we be succeeding in tipping the balance? How could the dark side be gaining ground? In fact, the Jedi have fallen away from their self assigned duty, their noble path. Could they have prevented it? Perhaps by having remained in control of the Republic, by electing and reelecting Jedi Supreme Chancellors. Or perhaps by absenting themselves completely from the affairs of the Republic, and attending to their arcane rituals in the belief that right thinking by them would keep the Republic strong and on course, the galaxy tipped into the light, instead of having allowed themselves to become marshals and enforcers.”

He cast a questioning look at Sidious. “Do you see the grand error of their ways? They execute the Republic’s business as if it were the business of the Force! But has a political body ever succeeded in being the arbiter of what is right and just? How easy it is for them to bask in self-assurance in their castle on Coruscant. But in so doing, they have rendered themselves ill equipped for the world we have spent a millennium bringing into being.”

He cleared his throat.

“We’re going to back them into a contradiction, Darth Sidious. We’re going to force them to confront the moral quandary of their position, and reveal their flaws by requiring them to oversee the conflicts that plague their vaunted Republic.

“Only Dooku and a handful of others have grasped the truth. All those years ago when I first met him on Serenno, I thought: What a blow it would be to the Order if he could be enticed to leave and embrace the dark side. What a panic it might incite. For if one could leave, then ten or twenty or thirty could follow, and the hollowness at the center of the Order would be plain for all to see.”

The Muun’s eyes narrowed. “One can’t be content to abide by the rules of the Jedi Order or the Force. Only by making the Force serve us have we prevailed. Eight years ago we shifted the galaxy, Darth Sidious, and that shift is now irreversible.”

Time is short.

Still in safekeeping on Aborah were texts and holocrons that recounted the deeds and abilities of Sith Masters who, so it was said and written, had been able to summon wind or rain or fracture the skies with conjured lightning. In their own words or those of their disciples, a few Dark Lords claimed to have had the ability to fly, become invisible, or transport themselves through space and time. But Plagueis had never succeeded in duplicating any of those phenomena.

From the start Tenebrous had told him that he lacked the talent for Sith sorcery, even though the inability hadn’t owed to a deficiency of midi-chlorians. It’s an innate gift, the Bith would say when pressed, and one that he had lacked, as well. Sorcery paled in comparison with Bith science, regardless. But Plagueis now understood that Tenebrous had been wrong about sorcery, as he had been wrong about so many things. Yes, the gift was strongest in those who, with scant effort, could allow themselves to be subsumed by the currents of the Force and become conduits for the powers of the dark side. But there was an alternative path to those abilities, and it led from a place where the circle closed on itself and sheer will substituted for selflessness. Plagueis understood, too, that there were no powers beyond his reach; none he couldn’t master through an effort of will. If a Sith of equal power had preceded him, then that one had taken his or her secrets to the grave, or had locked them away in holocrons that had been destroyed or had yet to surface.

The question of whether he and Sidious had discovered something new or rediscovered something ancient was beside the point. All that mattered was that, almost a decade earlier, they had succeeded in willing the Force to shift and tip irrevocably to the dark side. Not a mere paradigm shift, but a tangible alteration that could be felt by anyone strong in the Force, and whether or not trained in the Sith or Jedi arts.

The shift had been the outcome of months of intense meditation, during which Plagueis and Sidious had sought to challenge the Force for sovereignty and suffuse the galaxy with the power of the dark side. Brazen and shameless, and at their own mortal peril, they had waged etheric war, anticipating that their own midi-chlorians, the Force’s proxy army, might marshal to boil their blood or stop the beating of their hearts. Risen out of themselves, discorporate and as a single entity, they had brought the power of their will to bear, asserting their sovereignty over the Force. No counterforce had risen against them. In what amounted to a state of rapture they knew that the Force had yielded, as if some deity had been tipped from its throne. On the fulcrum they had fashioned, the light side had dipped and the dark side had ascended.

On the same day they had allowed Venamis to die.

Then, by manipulating the Bith’s midi-chlorians, which should have been inert and unresponsive, Plagueis had resurrected him. The enormity of the event had stunned Sidious into silence and overwhelmed and addled 11-4D’s processors, but Plagueis had carried on without assistance, again and again allowing Venamis to die and be returned to life, until the Bith’s organs had given out and Plagueis had finally granted him everlasting death.

But having gained the power to keep another alive hadn’t been enough for him. And so after Sidious had returned to Coruscant, he had devoted himself to internalizing that ability, by manipulating the midi-chlorians that animated him. For several months he made no progress, but ultimately he began to perceive a measured change. The scars that had grown over his wounds had abruptly begun to soften and fade, and he had begun to breathe more freely than he had in twenty years. He began to sense that not only were his damaged tissues healing, but his entire body was rejuvinating itself. Beneath the transpirator, areas of his skin were smooth and youthful, and he knew that eventually he would cease to age altogether.

Drunk on newfound power, then, he had attempted an even more unthinkable act: to bring into being a creation of his own. Not merely the impregnation of some hapless, mindless creature, but the birth of a Forceful being. The ability to dominate death had been a step in the right direction, but it wasn’t equivalent to pure creation. And so he had stretched out—indeed, as if invisible, transubstantiated—to inform every being of his existence, and impact all of them: Muunoid or insectoid, secure or dispossessed, free or enslaved. A warrior waving a banner in triumph on a battlefield. A ghost infiltrating a dream.

But ultimately to no end.

The Force grew silent, as if in flight from him, and many of the animals in his laboratory succumbed to horrifying diseases.

Regardless, eight long years later, Plagueis remained convinced that he was on the verge of absolute success. The evidence was in his own increased midi-chlorian count; and in the power he sensed in Sidious when he had finally returned to Sojourn. The dark side of the Force was theirs to command, and in partnership they would someday be able to keep each other alive, and to rule the galaxy for as long as they saw fit.

But he had yet to inform Sidious of this.

It was more important that Sidious remain as focused on manipulating events in the profane world as Plagueis was intent on dominating the realm of the Force, of which the mundane was only a gross and distorted reflection.

To be sure, the light had been extinguished, but for how long and at what cost?

He recalled a stellar eclipse he had witnessed on a long-forgotten world, whose single moon was of perfect size and distance to blot out the light of the system’s primary. The result hadn’t been total darkness but illumination of a different sort, singular and diffuse, that had confused the birds and had permitted the stars to be seen in what would have been broad daylight. Even totally blocked, the primary had shone from behind the satellite’s disk, and when the moon moved on there had been a moment of light almost too intense to bear.

Gazing into Sojourn’s darkening sky, he wondered what calamity the Force was planning in retreat to visit upon him or Sidious or both of them for willfully tipping the balance. Was retribution merely waiting in the wings as it had been on Coruscant twenty years earlier? It was a dangerous time; more dangerous than his earliest years as an apprentice when the dark side might have consumed him at any moment.

For now, at least, his full convalescence was near complete. Sidious was continuing to become more powerful as a Sith and as a politician, his most intricate schemes meeting with little or no resistance. And the Jedi Order was foundering...

Time would tell, and time was short.

Plagueis entered the room that had served as his meditation chamber. Though the high-ceilinged space was already fixed in his memory, he studied the few pieces of furniture in silence, as if searching for some detail that had escaped his notice. His eyes lingered on the small antechamber in which he and Sidious had been sitting when they had brought about the shift, and the strength of that memory was such that he was catapulted into a moment of intense reverie.

--Taken from Darth Plagueis

That's good to know; Past Sith Lords affected the Force with their mere presence. Though it is a feat for these two Lords.

Only Palpatine has been able to spread his darkness completely and totally over an entire galaxy.

--Taken from Dark Empire Sourcebook

It makes no reference to his Force powers, but his dark side reign. And he spread it only over a known galaxy.

Sidious comments to Plagueis that he could save his life with the Force as Plagueis used Midi-chlorian Manipulation to do for others in the past but decides against it, claiming to have the knowledge to support life with the Force.

Plagueis gulped for air and lifted an arm toward him.

"There's the rub, you see," Sidious said in a philosophical tone. "All the ones you experimented on, killed, brought back to life... They were little more than toys. Now, though, you get to experience it from their side, and look what you discover: in a body tat is being denied air, in which even the Force is failing, your own midi-chlorians can't accomplish what you're asking of them."

Hatred stained Sidious's eyes.

"I could save you, of course. Return you from the brink, as you did Venamis. I could retask your body to repair the damage already done to your lungs, your hearts, your aged brain. But I'll do no such thing. The idea here is not to drag you back at the last moment, but to bring you to death's door and shove you through to the other side.

--Taken from Darth Plagueis

Obviously, a lie. We know that Darth Sidious is a great liar! Otherwise he would not have needed his clones.

Darth Sidious sustains Vader's life through the dark side after his injuries on Mustafar, presumably through Midi-chlorian Manipulation.

An on Mustafar, below the red thunder of a volcano, a Sith Lord had already snatched from sand of black glass the charred torso and head of what once had been a man, and had already leapt for the cliffbank above with effortless strength, and had already roared to his clones to bring the medical capsule immediately! The Sith Lord lowered the limbless man tenderly to the cool ground above, and laid his hand across the cracked and blackened mess that once had been his brow, and he set his will upon him.

Live, Lord Vader. Live, my apprentice.

Live.

--Taken from Revenge of the Sith

That's just a symbolic transition from being a Jedi to a Dark Lord.

Sidious projects Lightning powerful enough to reduce a Sithspawn to ashes.

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Once again, this is the 4th strongest Sith Lord that ever lived.

Palpatine burns three Prophets of the Dark Side to bones with a burst of Lightning.

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Too bad these Dark Side Prophets were ambushed and didn't have time to raise their "Force shields". Nyriss's Force lightning could completely incinerate her opponents.

He generates Lightning powerful enough to kill a legion of stormtroopers with enough precision not to kill the Royal Guards in the area.

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Non-sensitive, unimpressive feat.

The Emperor knocks Leia unconscious with Lightning.

Strange, he couldn't turn her into ash, I suppose because of her baby.

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While weakened, Palpatine emits Lightning that incapacitates Leia; fatally wounds Brand, whose prosthetic body can sustain him in extreme temperatures and even the vacuum of space for a year; and kills Rayf instantly.

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We don't know these extreme temperatures; but he is one-of-the-most-powerful Sith Lords, so I have no doubt.

Brand: I realize our steam-powered technology looks barbaric to your eyes, Solo, but it's quite servicable and very solid.

Han: Yeah, like that walking droid suit you're wearing?

Brand: This "droid suit" is a sophisticated survival system. It can keep me alive on the hottest, or the coldest, planet in the galaxy. I could live for a year in the vacuum of space...without eating.

--Taken from the Dark Empire II audio drama

Obviously a metaphor of his droid suit.

Sidious’ Lightning impacts Mace's lightsaber forcefully enough to bend the blade back toward Mace's face in spite of lightsaber's capacity for repelling Force Lightning and Mace's efforts to deflect it with Vaapad.

Lightning blasted the clouds above, and lightning blasted from Palpatine's hands, and Mace didn't have time to comprehend what Palpatine was talking about; he had time only to slip back into Vaapad and angle his blade to catch the forking arcs of pure, dazzling hatred that clawed toward him. Because Vaapad is more than a fighting style. It is a state of mind: a channel for darkness. Power passed into him and out again without touching him. And the circuit completed itself: the lightning reflected back to its source.

Palpatine still made no move to defend himself from Skywalker; instead he ramped up the lightning bursting from his hands, bending the fountain of Mace's blade back toward the Korun Master's face.

Mace's blade bent so close to his face that he was choking on ozone. "Anakin, he's too strong for me—"

This was beyond Vaapad; he had no strength left to fight against his own blade.

--Taken from Revenge of the Sith

In the G-canon, newer lore>older lore, therefore this did not happen.

Palpatine's Lightning overpowers Yoda's Force Deflection and renders Yoda unconscious.

In the Senate Arena, lightning forked from the hands of a Sith, and bent away from the gesture of a Jedi to shock Redrobes into unconsciousness. Then there were only the two of them. Their clash transcended the personal; when new lightning blazed, it was not Palpatine burning Yoda with his hate, it was the Lord of all Sith scorching the Master of all Jedi into a smoldering huddle of clothing and green flesh.

--Taken from Revenge of the Sith

In the G-canon, newer lore>older lore, therefore this did not happen.

Before receiving any training in the Force, Palpatine hurls his father around a cabin, contorts a bulkhead, strangles his mother, and kills his siblings with the Force.

Cosinga took a step in Palpatine's direction, only to be hurled back against the bulkhead separating the communications room from the main cabin. A female voice from behind the closed hatch asked in distress, "What was that?"

Nursing an injured shoulder, Cosinga looked suddenly like a trapped animal, his eyes wide with surprise and fear. He made a move to strike the handplate and open the hatch, but Palpatine thwarted his effort without raising a finger. Twisting violently around, Cosinga fell over one of the acceleration chairs, bloodying his face as it struck the armrest. A pounding began against the hatch.

"Guards!" Cosinga shouted, but the word had barely left his lips when the bulkhead against which he was slouched buckled inward, heaving him face-first to the floor and driving the breath from him. Palpatine stood rooted in place, his hands trembling in front of him and his face stricken. Something stirred behind his incandescent eyes. He heard the pounding on the hatch and whirled.

"Don't come in! Stay away from me!"

"What have you done?" It was his mother's voice, panicked. "What have you done?"

Cosinga pushed himself to his knees and began a terrified retreat, leaving smears of blood on the deck. But Palpatine was advancing on him now.

"If the Force birthed you, then I curse it!" Cosinga rasped. "I curse it!"

"As I do," Palpatine growled.

The hatch began to slide to, and he heard the voice of the guard who had escorted him from the Jafan III. "Stop!"

"Cosinga!" his mother screamed.

Palpatine pressed the palms of his hands to his head, then in eerie calm streaked to the hatch, pulled the surprised guard through the threshold, and tossed him clear across the cabin.

Raising his face to the ceiling, he shouted, "We're all in this now!"

Once more Sidious allowed his memories to unfold, and he relived the crimethe event, as he had at last come to think of it. His father's limp and blooded body. The smashed skulls of the bodyguards. His hands clenched around his mother's slender throat—but not really, only in his mind, strangling her with his thoughts. The lifeless forms of his siblings, slumped here and there...

--Taken from Darth Plagueis

Nice to know, Vitiate has killed his step-father with TK and stripped off power Lord Dramath.

During the Clone Wars, Palpatine conducted Sith rituals on Coruscant that radiated unnerving ripples in the Force, which caused anxiety among most Jedi throughout the galaxy, but also served to increase Anakin Skywalker's hunger for power.

--Taken from The Ultimate Visual Guide

Vitiate bent Malak's and Revan's minds(TOR's most powerful Jedi) without any effort. Nihilus corrupted Visas only by showing her a vision about death.

Before receiving any training in the Force, Palpatine is able to shield his thoughts and Force sensitivity from Plagueis' attempts to probe him and lowers his mental shields after committing murder, after which Plagueis intends to teach him to rebuild his shields.

They got up from the bench and began to amble back toward the university complex. Plagueis submerged himself deeply in the Force to study Palpatine, but he was unable to glean very much. Humans were difficult to read in the easiest of cases, and Palpatine’s mind was awash in conflict. So much going on in that small brain, Plagueis told himself. So much emotional current and self-interest. So unlike the predictable, focused intellects of the Outer Rim sentients, especially the hive-minded among them.

“Palpatine, I wonder how you would feel about working with us—Damask Holdings, I mean.”

Palpatine’s thick eyebrows beetled. “In what capacity?”

“To be perfectly blunt, as a kind of spy.” He went on before Palpatine could speak. “I won’t say that you and I want the same things for Naboo, because clearly—and notwithstanding your feelings about the architecture—you hold your world dear. My group, however, is less interested in Naboo’s government than it is in Naboo’s plasma and what it will fetch on the open market.”

Palpatine looked as if the plain truth was something new to him. “If you had phrased that any differently, I would have rejected your offer out of hand.”

“Then you accept? You’re willing to update us regarding whatever political machinations your father’s group may have in the works?”

“Only if I can report directly to you.”

Plagueis tried once more to see him in the Force. “Is that your wish?”

Palpatine returned a sober nod. “It is.”

“Then by all means, you’ll report exclusively to me,” Plagueis said. “I’ll see to it that the necessary arrangements are made.” He stepped away from the speeder as Palpatine powered it up.

Palpatine’s expression softened. “For a time I thought about adopting the name of our distaff line. I haven’t rejected the dynasty I was born into. I’ve rejected the name I was given. But not for the grandiose reasons some think. Just the opposite, actually. I’m certain that you, of all beings, understand as much.”

There it was again, Plagueis thought: the deceptive cadence; the use of flattery, charm, and self-effacement as if rapier feints in a duel. The need to be seen as guileless, unassuming, empathetic. A youth with no desire to enter politics, and yet born for it.

Tenebrous had told him from the start that the Republic, with help from the Sith, would continue to descend into corruption and disorder, and that a time would come when it would have to rely on the strengths of an enlightened leader, capable of saving the lesser masses from being ruled by their unruly passions, jealousies, and desires. In the face of a common enemy, real or manufactured, they would set aside all their differences and embrace the leadership of anyone who promised a brighter future. Could this Palpatine, with Plagueis’s help, be the one to bring about such a transformation?

Again he tried to see deeper into Palpatine, but without success. The psychic walls the youth had raised were impenetrable, which made the young human something rare indeed. Had Palpatine somehow learned to corral the Force within himself, as Plagueis had concealed his own powers as a youth?

“Of course I understand,” he said finally.

Palpatine’s expression darkened. “You know nothing of my true nature.” He paced away from Plagueis, then stopped and turned to him. “You never asked about the killings.”

“I’ve never been one for grim details,” Plagueis said. “But if you need to unburden yourself, do so.”

Palpatine raised his clawed hands. “I executed them with these! And with the power of my mind. I became a storm, Magister—a weapon strong enough to warp bulkheads and hurl bodies across cabinspaces. I was death itself!”

Plagueis sat tall in the chair, in genuine astonishment.

He could see Palpatine now in all his dark glory. Anger and murder had pulled down the walls he had raised perhaps since infancy to safeguard his secret. But there was no concealing it now: the Force was powerful in him! Bottled up for seventeen standard years, his innate power had finally burst forth and could never again be stoppered. All the years of repression, guiltless crimes, raw emotion bubbling forth, toxic to any who dared touch or taste it. But beneath his anger lurked a subtle enemy: apprehension. Newly reborn, he was at great risk. But only because he didn’t realize just how powerful he was or how extraordinarily powerful he could become. He would need help to complete his self-destruction. He would need help rebuilding those walls, to keep from being discovered.

Oh, what a cautious taming he would require! Plagueis thought. But what an ally he might make. What an ally!

--Taken from Darth Plagueis

Plagueis has done essentially the same thing under Darth Tenebrous's tutelage as Sidious did. So this is not quite a feat if you are comparing him with other OP Dark Lords.

Sidious reveals to Plagueis that he has been implanting mental suggestions into the latter's mind for years.

"You may be wondering: when did he begin to change? The truth is that I haven’t changed. As we have clouded the minds of the Jedi, I clouded yours. Never once did I have any intention of sharing power with you. I needed to learn from you; no more, no less. To learn all of your secrets, which I trusted you would eventually reveal. But what made you think that I would need you after that? Vanity, perhaps; your sense of self-importance. You’ve been nothing more than a pawn in a game played by a genuine Master.

“The Sith’ari.”

A cruel laugh escaped him.

“Reflect back on even the past few years—assuming you have the capacity. Yinchorr, Dorvalla, Eriadu, Maul, the Neimoidians, Naboo, an army of clones, the fallen Jedi Dooku... You think these were your ideas, when in fact they were mine, cleverly suggested to you so that you could feed them back to me. You were far too trusting, Plagueis. No true Sith can ever really care about another. This has always been known. There is no way but my way.”

--Taken from Darth Plagueis

Nothing about Force powers, only that he managed to influence his Sith Master with his ideas. Plagueis's arogance, even Sidious affirms it.

He uses Drain Knowledge to tear information out of the minds of Jedi.

There was no great collection of Dark Side lore, nor any gather of its masters. Realizing the task that lay before him, Palpatine knew he must begin at once to attain control over the Dark Side. With the resources of the galaxy at his disposal, he gathered the greatest works of knowledge from over a million worlds. He studied the Force in all its guises throughout the galaxy, whether it was the shamanism of Jarvashqiine or the tales of the Tyia. Coupled with the perversions of the secrets he ripped from the living minds of Jedi he captured during the Purge, he learned more than ever expected.

--Taken from Dark Empire Sourcebook

It makes no reference to his powers, only that he tortured Jedi, and in turn these told him the secrets.

Almost mindless under the oppression of the Emperor's dark side influence, the people of Byss find their life energies constantly leeched off during the Emperor's vile machinations.

Throughout the worlds submissive to the Empire, Byss is renowned as a paradise, whose siren call multitudes to willingly apply for emigration to its shores. Once there, wrapped in the power of the dark side, the immigrants become completely submissive, their life energy forever enslaved to the mind that would devour a galaxy.

--Taken from the Dark Empire endnotes

Quality>Quantity as Vitiate's TP>Sidious's TP

Even Nihilus's sources state that in his presence, mere beings become instantly bent to his will.

The Emperor erases memories, presumably by utilization of Memory Rub, in very possibly millions of people on Coruscant in order to conceal the location of the Star Destroyer Lusankya's burial place.

The Lusankya—aSuper Star Destroyer eight kilometerslength—laid waste to the area beneath which it had lain buried for years. Green turbolaser bolts pounded the cityscape, freeing the ship from the ferrocrete and transparisteel prison in which it had laired. Wedge knew Super Star Destroyers had only come into service after the Battle of Yavin, which meant the Lusankya had to have been created and hidden on Coruscant before the battle of Endor. Unless the constructor droids just built it there, then built over it. The idea that a hundred-square-kilometer area of the planet could have been razed and rebuilt to hide a Super Star Destroyer seemed beyond belief, especially with no one noticing the ship's insertion into the hole. Could the Emperor's power through the dark side of the Force have been sufficient to compel thousands or millions of people to forget having seen the Lusankya being buried? As hideous as that idea seemed, Wedge hoped it was the truth. The likely alternative—that the Emperor had ordered the deaths of all the witnesses—seemed that much more horrible.

--Taken from X-Wing: Krytos Trap

If it is not a statement, then it is not true. Even Wedge wants to believe it was a dark side power rather that the Emperor killed the eye-witnesses. So yes, the Emperor killed them, not mind bending Coruscant's citizens.

Luke notes that Palpatine bent the mind of Kam Solusar, forcing him to abandon his life as a Jedi and serve the Empire as a Dark Side Adept. Luke undoes this mental hold.

Luke: I sense your old life. Before the dark side ensnared you. When the Force flowed through you.

Kam: No! No! No! (Sound of lightsaber turning off.) My life is forfeit, Jedi. Kill me.

Luke: I do not take life unless I must. Yours I give back to you.

Kam: Why? When I lured you here...I would have made this derelict space station your grave. The tomb of the last Jedi Master.

Luke: Instead, I will make it the place of your rebirth. You were a Dark Jedi once. But only because you fell under the Emperor's spell. Now that spell is broken! (Sound of the Force being used. Kam screams.) Kam Solusar, I give you back your life. I give you your freedom. I give you the power that is already yours—the power of the Jedi. (Sound of the Force fades.)

Kam: I...Skywalker...I'm free.

Luke: The Force is strong in you.

Kam: My old life...I remember it now. I...my father was a Jedi. I was a Jedi.

Luke: You are a Jedi, Kam Solusar.

Kam: I...I owe you my life.

--Taken from the Dark Empire audio drama

Okay, to really believe that, it is a crap. Luke is just saying that Sidious managed to seduce him how he did to Anakin. No Force Power!

Solusar spent many years hiding from Vader's Dark Jedi. When discovered, Solusar was tortured until his spirit was broken, and then converted to the dark side of the Force. He was stripped off the memories of his former life. After training as a Dark Jedi, EmperorPalpatine selected him as a personal warrior on Byss. This doesn't mean that he was mind bent by Palpatine himself.

He feels a disturbance in the Force and then stretches his perception to view distant stars.

A tremor took hold of the planet.

Sprung from death, it unleashed itself in a powerful wave, at once burrowing deep into the world’s core and radiating through its saccharine atmosphere to shake the stars themselves. At the quake’s epicenter stood Sidious, one elegant hand vised on the burnished sill of an expansive translucency, a vessel filled suddenly to bursting, the Force so strong within him that he feared he might disappear into it, never to return. But the moment didn’t constitute an ending so much as a true beginning, long overdue; it was less a transformation than an intensification—a gravitic shift.

A welter of voices, near and far, present and from eons past, drowned his thoughts. Raised in praise, the voices proclaimed his reign and cheered the inauguration of a new order. Yellow eyes lifted to the night sky, he saw the trembling stars flare, and in the depth of his being he felt the power of the dark side anoint him.

--Taken from Darth Plagueis

This is obviously, a hyperbole with thestars. Anyone who takes Star Wars too literally, they are a person who lack their common sense.

He senses Yoda's weakening under barrages of Lightning.

The end came with astonishing suddenness. The shadow could feel how much it cost the little green freak to bend back his lightnings into the cage of energy that enclosed them both; the creature had reached the limits of his strength.

--Taken from Revenge of the Sith

AS I SAID, G-canon's newer lore>older lore. So therefore, anything related to the movie novels instead of movies, I won't count.

Battle Meditation

Battle Meditation is a Force ability which influences the tide of battles, increasing the morale of soldiers on a preferred side and decreasing the morale of soldiers on an enemy side.

It is explained that Sidious used the Force to direct his Imperial armies.

Thrawn needed C'baoth to coordinate his military forces in much the same way Emperor Palpatine consolidated the fighting spirit of his followers through the Force.

--Taken from The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia

Palpatine coordinates more than a million Imperials aboard their fleet and the Death Star II during the Battle of Endor, resulting in disarray after he dies and his influence is severed.

For the first time, the Death Star rocked. The collision with the exploding Destroyer was only the beginning, leading to various systems breakdowns, which led to reactor meltdowns, which led to personnel panic, abandonment of posts, further malfunctions, and general chaos. Smoke was everywhere, substantial ramblings came from all directions at once, people were running and shouting. Electrical fires, steam explosions, cabin depressurizations, disruption of chain-of-command. Added to this, the continued bombardment by Rebel cruisers—smelling fear in the enemy—merely heightened the sense of hysteria that was already pervasive.

For the Emperor was dead. The central, powerful evil that had been the cohesive force to the Empire was gone; and when the dark side was this diffused, this nondirected—this was simply where it led.

Confusion.

Desperation.

Damp fear.

--Taken from Return of the Jedi

When Grand AdmiralThrawn explains to Joruus C'baoth and Gilad Pellaeon his own theory as to why the Battle of Endor was lost; he believed that Palpatine employed the power to an unwise degree, taking such close control of the Imperial forces as to make them puppets, almost incapable of fighting on their own when his influence was suddenly removed (the use of battle meditation at Endor was later revealed and attributed to Admiral Nial Declann instead of Palpatine)

"The galaxy is choked with beings. Billions die every instant. It is better to make use of this resource. At my retreat on Byss, the life force of its colonists supplied an energy pool to sustain my dark side experiments."

--Taken from Book of Sith: Secrets of the Dark Side

Imperial ships ferried millions of immigrants to the planet Byss, where the Emperor fed off their life energies through the dark side.

--Taken from The New Essential Guide to Characters

After choosing Byss as his resort world, Palpatine lured eager nobles to the planet—then used his dark powers to enslave its people, channeling their life energies for use in his own vile experiments within the fell Imperial Citadel.

--Taken from The Essential Atlas

Years ago, Emperor Palpatine chose Byss as his private retreat, and Imperial architects and engineers were commissioned to build him an opulent palace. Several million humans were allowed to emigrate to the world, where the Emperor and his adepts used the dark side to feed off their life energies. The planet's population eventually reached almost 20 billion, and all outgoing communications were censored by security agents.

--Taken from The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia

The true power of the dark side comes from Death. A Sith would need to feed on the deaths of all beings that they kill in order to receive the real benefit. It's really too bad that Palpatine never showed himself capable of growing stronger from utilizing the loss of life, unlike Vitiate or Nihilus.

Palpatine could harness the energy of billions of life-forms to power himself, specifically the entire population of Byss... butonly while they were all ALIVE and under his spell. Vitiate permanently attained all the power he gained from consuming life, killing them all in the process. Vitiate was already at the point where he would truly never have need of a lightsaber (even compared to Palpatine), only his raw power in the Dark Side of the Force. Sidious could siphon power from "billions" (most of them not even Force-sensitive?) Vitiate could permanently keep power that he consumed from the deaths of over 8,000 powerful Sith Lords (and likely a whole lot more since then?) Quality over quantity, I say. Not only that, but the true power of the Dark Side comes from Death, not keeping your victims alive.

Palpatine channels his dark side energies into the entire planet Byss, imbuing it with enough power to render it a Force nexus.

http://web.archive.org/web/20100226123647/http://wizards.com/default.asp?x=starwars/article/sw20050414planet1

The mysterious planet Byss lies at the heart of the Imperial holdings in the Deep Core. A pleasant resort world used by Emperor Palpatine as a personal retreat, Byss was once a lush and fertile planet that was used as a lure to attract willing followers to settle in the Core. Over time, the Emperor's dark side energies slowly corrupted the world and transformed it into one of the most powerful dark side sites in the entire galaxy.

Mara Jade draws Force power from Palpatine.

And from the Emperor himself, Mara Jade learned to develop her Force powers. She learned to listen for his telepathic "voice," even across the galaxy, and to draw strength from his own vast reserves of power.

--Taken from The Dark Side Sourcebook

Byss was a nexus of the dark side of the Force because it housed Palpatine's clones and his various Sith alchemy experiments and the Force energies sucking the lives on the planet, not because of his mere presence. And nowhere Mara takes strength from Sidious, that's just another hyperbole.

Sith Sorcery/Alchemy: Force Storm/Force Fear/Mask/Invoke Spirits

"Force Storm (the weather power, not the wormhole) is a Force ability that alters the weather patterns in an area to generate storms. Force Fear is a power that induces fear in other individuals. Mask is an alchemical power through which a Sith can restructure their facial form to appear differently. Invoke Spirits is a power through which a Sith sorcerer draws out the spirits of other beings, notably ancient Sith.

Darth Sidious performs an arcane ritual through Sith sorcery and alchemy that seems to have several applications. He consumes a creature, channels his dark side energies into a crystal, and invokes Sith spirits. In doing so, he creates lightning storms throughout Coruscant (possibly through Force Storm), while simultaneously influencing the minds and emotions of Jedi into feeling fear and aggression (possibly Force Fear). After he does this, the worm-like Sithspawn he ate breaks out of the crystal and devours him, to which Sidious responds to by killing it with Force Lightning. The end result is Sidious transformed into Palpatine (possibly through Mask)."

This is a passage from the novelization of ROTS(Sithisis) The whole thing is a metaphor. Sidious doesn't literally shoot a crystal or have worms emerging from holocrons that he consumes and then consume him. It's one of several worm and dragon based metaphors in the novel that are designed to describe internal conflict as well as the mental and emotional aspects of utilizing the Force. As I said, this passage refers to the means in which Palpatine hides his true appearance, with the novel working with the belief that Palpatine hid not only his nature but his actual physical self from all those around him.

Sithisis I part of a collection of non-canon comics. Have you looked at what else is in the Visionaries set?

So again. The comic is a metaphor. It doesn't even have any dialogue. It's just a collection of non-canon images. Moreover, they're non-canon, both to the Disney "canon" and to the Legends continuity.

Even, the famous creator of Dark Empire series, Tom Veitch, he has admited that Darth Sidious is not the strongest Dark Lord of the Sith in the Expanded Universe despite of the Reborn Emperor's showings in Dark Empire Trilogy series..

No Caption Provided

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Freedon_nadd_1

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LondonBFR

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#2  Edited By LondonBFR

Didn't read all of it. But I agree on the notion that Vitiate is the king, a fully fed Nihilus could well be number 2 and Kun rests at 3; perhaps interchangeable with Palpatine himself.

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HighAccuser

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EU Sids is a bit overrated, but his character is pretty good.

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deactivated-5e8a1f5fafc4e

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That fake Tom Veitch quote tho

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Mije_101

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Never tag me in one of your garbage threads again.

Sidious kills Nihilus.

Your Tom Veitch quote is fake too.

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TheVivas

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Not this guy again..

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WollfMyth209

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#7  Edited By WollfMyth209
@i_like_swords said:

That fake Tom Veitch quote tho

@mije_101 said:

Your Tom Veitch quote is fake too.

Is it actually? LOL. The lengths people will go to. Not that it matters, anyways, since the opinions of authors aren't always considered canon, and can be quite inconsistent with the source material.

On topic: A nice effort for a thread, but your misinforming, lowballing and at times rather strange points don't work in your favour. At best you'll get a dunce who's never actually explored much of the EU or an ancient Sith wanker supporting your cause. But as of now, the only thing that might actually come close to being true is Valk taking Sidious' mantle, and even that's extremely controversial. Nihilus or Kun? Forget about it.

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DonatelloRawks

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Agree.

Batman could beat Darth Sidious.

Given prep, I understood that Batman could study midichlorians and find a way to suppress them in order to combat Darth Sidious on a more equal level.

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Freedon_nadd_1

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That fake Tom Veitch quote tho

It is not, go check his Facebook profile, it is right here:

https://www.facebook.com/tom.veitch.writer?ref=ts&fref=ts

You say only like that, because you don't want to believe it.

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Freedon_nadd_1

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#10  Edited By Freedon_nadd_1
@wollfmyth209 said:
@i_like_swords said:

That fake Tom Veitch quote tho

@mije_101 said:

Your Tom Veitch quote is fake too.

Is it actually? LOL. The lengths people will go to. Not that it matters, anyways, since the opinions of authors aren't always considered canon, and can be quite inconsistent with the source material.

On topic: A nice effort for a thread, but your misinforming, lowballing and at times rather strange points don't work in your favour. At best you'll get a dunce who's never actually explored much of the EU or an ancient Sith wanker supporting your cause. But as of now, the only thing that might actually come close to being true is Valk taking Sidious' mantle, and even that's extremely controversial. Nihilus or Kun? Forget about it.

As I said Sidious is one of the strongest Sith in the galactic history, but he's not ultimate Sith god most people think he is. Keep in mind that I have analyzed his nigh-feats, not all of them that were unnecessarly.

And I was forced to clarify that in the G-canon, if the older lore contradicts the newer one, then the newer one is "canonized". My point was to not take everything too literally regarding Sidious's feats.

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LondonBFR

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Can someone prove that the aforementioned quote is definitely fake though?

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noobsnowman

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#12  Edited By noobsnowman

Sidious is amongst the strongest Sith Lord in history and he definitely belongs in the top 2, and your lowballing and misrepresentation of information will not change it.

Also, using a facebook conversation to prove things? LOL. That's so fake it's becoming comical.

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Purple_D_Dragon

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Who dares to doubt the almighty Emperor Wankantine?!!1

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Freedon_nadd_1

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#14  Edited By Freedon_nadd_1

@noobsnowman said:

Sidious is amongst the strongest Sith Lord in history and he definitely belongs in the top 2, and your lowballing and misrepresentation of information will not change it.

Also, using a facebook conversation to prove things? LOL. That's so fake it's becoming comical.

Lowballing him?lol I said he is one of the strongest Sith Lords.

Now it would be cool if you would prove me how he is stronger than Nihilus? ;) xD

And did you read all of it, or read just a few lines?

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On topic: A nice effort for a thread, but your misinforming, lowballing and at times rather strange points don't work in your favour. At best you'll get a dunce who's never actually explored much of the EU or an ancient Sith wanker supporting your cause. But as of now, the only thing that might actually come close to being true is Valk taking Sidious' mantle, and even that's extremely controversial. Nihilus or Kun? Forget about it.

Couldn't have said it better myself, Wollf. Case in point:

Agree.

Batman could beat Darth Sidious.

Given prep, I understood that Batman could study midichlorians and find a way to suppress them in order to combat Darth Sidious on a more equal level.

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Freedon_nadd_1

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Can someone prove that the aforementioned quote is definitely fake though?

I think you are the most reasonable person on this thread. And you have shown that you understand what I have written on my thread.

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noobsnowman

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@freedon_nadd_1:

Now it would be cool if you would prove me how he is stronger than Nihilus?

Literally Nihilus' better at everything and has drain immunity.

And did you read all of it, or read just a few lines?

Considering that I managed to read all the way to the facebook conversation and remain sane, that's a really impressive on my part.

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TheVivas

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Can someone prove that the aforementioned quote is definitely fake though?

Considering the fact that the New Year just occurred, as in it is now January of 2016,and the quote is from a conversation that happened on August 1st 2016, it doesn't take a genius to realize it's fake.

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LondonBFR

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@thevivas said:

Can someone prove that the aforementioned quote is definitely fake though?

Considering the fact that the New Year just occurred, as in it is now January of 2016,and the quote is from a conversation that happened on August 1st 2016, it doesn't take a genius to realize it's fake.

Not necessarily Viva. In British English, dates are usually written in the order day – month – year , while in American English they are written month – day – year.

So to me it looks like it happened on January 8th 2016 as would be Londoner.

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#21  Edited By Wolfrazer

You realize that it's all Tom's opinion right? He says I think, the question asks. "Do you think?" So on....it's his opinion clearly and I don't think a sole author's word negates all the previous sources that say Sidious is the most powerful. Especially when he doesn't write for SW anymore.

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Straight-Fire

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It's Tom's opinion, not fact. Come on now.

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Xargo

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HE IS THE DARK SIDE!

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DarthManhunter

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Wow..

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#25  Edited By Freedon_nadd_1

@noobsnowman said:

@freedon_nadd_1:

Now it would be cool if you would prove me how he is stronger than Nihilus?

Literally Nihilus' better at everything and has drain immunity.

And did you read all of it, or read just a few lines?

Considering that I managed to read all the way to the facebook conversation and remain sane, that's a really impressive on my part.

So you're saying that Nihilus>Sidious, that's nice to know. xD :)

@wolfrazerYou realize that it's all Tom's opinion right? He says I think, the question asks. "Do you think?" So on....it's his opinion clearly and I don't think a sole author's word negates all the previous sources that say Sidious is the most powerful. Especially when he doesn't write for SW anymore.

Want more proof, look here:

No Caption Provided

Keep in mind that Tom Veitch wrote and came initially with the Exar Kun character, Ulic Qel-Droma (...), so he knows better his character than we know.

@xargoHE IS THE DARK SIDE!

I thought the DARK SIDE was the Son!? lol You need to learn a little bit of Star Wars lore.

@thevivas tell me how did I misinterpreted things? Basically I have taken Silver's thread(I have no problems with him) and I have analyzed the said so "sources".

How can you say that I don't know what am I doing?

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noobsnowman

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@freedon_nadd_1: Which part of my post ever remotely implies that Nihilus > Sidious?

In light of your inability to read, I have found this website on how to improve your reading skills - please use it wisely:

http://www.copyblogger.com/how-to-read/

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@freedon_nadd_1: i think anybody who can create hyperspace wormholes with the darkside is probably best sith, i mean after a movie like return of the jedi i don't think he deserves any less

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#28  Edited By Heinrich7

While I did like many parts of the EU, and am sad they're gone, I think one of the reasons why Disney scrapped it into Legends(Another word for fanfic) is partially due to the Wormholes sucking up Fleets and characters like Darth Nihilus destroying the surfaces of worlds.

Movie character's EU counterparts were really crazy strong. And yeah, I think it did get carried away in a few places(Why would I even want to use my Lightsaber when I could Force Storm entire battalions of stormtroopers?). I guess the same could be said of most Fantasy universes though.

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@freedon_nadd_1: I've read the whole thread, and you did nothing BUT lowball. That's all you've done on this site, even months ago when you'd try to argue with Nova that Nihilus > Sidious. Now you're trying to do the same under the guise of "he's not really that strong".

Frankly, it's embarrassing.

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those_eyes

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TLDR

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Fallschirmjager

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everything and everyone is overrated

TLDR

his favorite fictional character isn't sidious and he wants him to be more powerful

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#32  Edited By Freedon_nadd_1

@noobsnowman said:

@freedon_nadd_1: Which part of my post ever remotely implies that Nihilus > Sidious?

In light of your inability to read, I have found this website on how to improve your reading skills - please use it wisely:

http://www.copyblogger.com/how-to-read/

Literally Nihilus' better at everything and has drain immunity.

You said, this. Am I wrong, you didn't even mention Sidious's name? If you wanted to say that Sidious has Drain Immunity, it would be cool to bring me a source or something to prove me that, AFAIK except Anakin and Ulic who have immunity to Dark Reaper's drain, nobody else does.

@thevivas

I've read the whole thread, and you did nothing BUT lowball. That's all you've done on this site, even months ago when you'd try to argue with Nova that Nihilus > Sidious. Now you're trying to do the same under the guise of "he's not really that strong".

Frankly, it's embarrassing.

Can you give me an example of my thread where I have degraded Sidious's Force power or galactic influence!?

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linsanel_Doctor

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He has the best death scene lol

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stormshadow_x

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Jesus the hate

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#36  Edited By maxxcveiler

No

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@erkan12 said:

There are plenty of characters that will challenge him, even from his own era, he is ''one of the'' strongest, but I don't think anyone can make an assumption like ''certainly the strongest'' there are too many unknown characters in Star Wars galactic history, and you can't possibly know that there will be another character with crazy power juice show up or not.

THIS!

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@freedon_nadd_1: The whole thing, especially from the moment you said Nihilus and Kun > him.

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DarthAznable

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Wow. It's just fictional characters people.

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#41  Edited By Freedon_nadd_1

@thevivas said:

@freedon_nadd_1: The whole thing, especially from the moment you said Nihilus and Kun > him.

Don't blame me, but Kun did far more impressive things than Sidious(both, the c-books and Dark Apprentice novel) Sidious has his most notable Force powers(Byss drain+Force storms) and Exar Kun displayed greater feats, but were poorly done in DLOTS and TGSW, of course.

Why Exar Kun is stronger than Sidious in both Force powers and lightsaber mastery, and he is the third strongest Dark Lord of the Sith, surpassed only by Darth Nihilus[2nd place] and Lord Vitiate[1st place]

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Exar was an exceptional lightsaber combat master. He also was able to freeze the entire Senate (which had Jedi that were in the building) with one spell(a quick spell that reveals dexterity) and then rescue his apprentice and kill an extremely powerful Jedi Master and nobody could do a thing about it. This Jedi Master was also very similar to Yoda and has been training for 1000 years, also remember that the Jedi Master was training during the height of war in the Republic so he knew battle better than Yoda did(regarding fighting experience)

The Jedi Order also sent thousands of Jedi to kill Exar. He was able to repel all of them long enough to preserve his spirit for thousands of years.

And Exar did study alot, Vodo-Siosk Baas says that Exar is the most powerful student he has ever trained and the most powerful Force User, and Vodo was similar to Yoda, he had trained a lot of Jedi over a long period of time, and if Exar was the best, that means something.

Exar also studied alot, he was fascinated by the Sith teachings in Vodo's holocron. Exar also learned under the ancient Sith, like Freedon Nadd and Marka Ragnos, he would still be very smart. It is also worth noting that the ancient Sith said that Exar would be the one to bring about the Golden Age of the Sith and said that he was the Dark Lord of the Sith, over Ulic Qel-Droma.

Exar Kun was also able to destroy the entire Massassasi race with a Sith ritual that he initiated very fast, quite a feat. He drained their life-force and used it to prolong his life.

His apprentice, Ulic, was a powerful Jedi and lightsaber duelist in his own right, but Exar was his unquestioned master and the ancient Sith said that Kun would be the Dark Lord, not Ulic, this means that Kun is stronger than Ulic was.

He was also able to hide as a Sith in the middle of the Jedi Stronghold (Ossus) and recruit Jedi to become Sith, without the Jedi even knowing what he was doing, that's got to take some pretty impressive power. Also, this planet (and its sun) were later blown up by Kun's lackey, so anybody after him would have no knowledge of those things that Exar knew.

Also, he invented his own lightsaber, Exar was the person who invented his unique double bladed lightsaber. He also designed his own unique style of lightsaber combat, something that he never taught to anyone and was lost after his defeat. So nobody other than him and Ulic had any idea what to expect from him (everyone else he faced ended up dead)

He is also an amazing duelist, after he decided to try against Vodo (a renowned lightsaber master), Vodo died in around 10 seconds, before that Kun was just toying with him. Toying with him! In the middle of the Senate Chamber on the same planet as the Jedi Temple, he could still toy with one of the best duelists in the Jedi Order and win hands down.

Kun also learned loads of stuff from Ossus, which was later destroyed by him so anyone after him couldn't have learned anything from it, he also used Sith holocrons and had the private notes of Naga Sadow, another Sith who could blow up a sun with his Corsair. Naga was also a Dark Lord of the Sith from 1000 years before Exar and was Marka Ragnos apprentice and had an amazing grasp of the dark side, Exar learned it all.

Kun was able to walk into the heart of the Republic Senate, freeze them all, kill their leader and a Jedi Master, and walk out, nobody could do a thing. This is is the heart of the Jedi Order! He was also able to kill an enormous Sith wyrm with very few problems. Exar was also able to walk into another Jedi Stronghold (Ossus), kill more Jedi, steal the artifacts, and walk out again, unharmed. He was also able to destroy Freedon Nadd's spirit with no problems.

He also being resisted to be cut off from the Force by the Grand Jedi Master Odan-Urr.

Think about how he died, he was faced against 10 000 Jedi, and the Republic fleet. Under those circumstances, anyone would have died. Exar died sure, but he was able to hold the entire fleet off with the Force until he was able to figure out a plan to keep himself alive. Exar was able to kill off an entire race, numbering thousands with a Sith ritual, to keep himself alive, sure he was killed 4000 years later, but it still took 14 Jedi, 12 padawans, Luke and Kun's old master to kill him. Think about it, 2 lightsabers, 12 padawans/knights, 2 Jedi masters (including one of the most powerful Jedi ever; Luke and the old version of Yoda, Vodo-Siosk Baas, he had trained a lot of Jedi), to kill off Kun's 4000 year old ionized air particles! He must have been near godlike when he was alive. And Luke faced Kun after Sidious, and Kun did this things while he was in a weakened form.

When Kun walked, the ground shook underneath him from the sheer power of the dark side emanating from his body.

Exar did invent his own style of lightsaber combat, the double bladed, also, his double blade was different than any other double blades. He was able to move it faster and aim more than with other double blades. Also, since few people had never seen a double bladed saber, it would throw them off. He can move his lightsaber so quickly that almost anyone he faced would be sliced before he knew what was going on.

Exar wore armor with a cortosis weave in it, allowing him to recieve hits from a lightsaber without doing him damage.

He took a hit from Aleema's gauntlets and kept moving (Aleema's blast turned one of her servants into a burned husk), he also survived being Force severed by Nadd's ghost as well as having all of his bones broken by Nadd too. For a comparable feat of notifying every Sith in the galaxy, Exar also Force screamed loud enough for the Deneba Conclave to detect him in the Force if I remember correctly. Exar Kun was very powerful, by the time of Ulic's capture at Coruscant, Ulic admitted no person was powerful to face him directly, which is why the entire 10,000+ strong Jedi Order had to turn up and attempt to stop him.

Exar Kun was beyond his dueling skills most infamous for being able to attack someone or multiple persons with a blast of pure dark side energy, an energy that even the likes of Darth Bane had no defense against at all and he flopped around like a fish out of water when a dark side tendril severed his arm.

Exar Kun was the strongest user of dark side energetic blasts on record, when Aleema Keto attempted to kill him with this ability he simply absorbed the blow and blasted her with a far stronger attack that Aleema only survived by shielding herself with a dark side Force bubble that only took the brunt of the attack, it still knocked her unconscious.

Exar Kun showed his total mastery of Force blast against Gantoris, using it via his eyes instead of his hands, totally incinerating{not just some charred husk} the promising Jedi Knight.

Exar Kun was also a master practitioner of Force flight able to move at will in a strain similar to Count Dooku.

Exar Kun's mastery of Sith Alchemy and magics was nothing short of spectacular, he could easily create hosts of Sith war beasts including the dreaded Terentatek, eventually this power was so immense it allowed him to absorb the Massassi species and abandon his body. Four thousand years after this as a Sith spirit Kun would have used the students of the Jedi Praxeum to rebuild his own body through his alchemy, essentially allowing him to move from the corporeal to the non-corporeal whenever he wished.

His Force sense was also powerful enough to know his apprentice Ulic Qel-Droma was endangered from half the galaxy away.

Kun's duelling skills are also valid here, as his form relied on Force prowess to be used, he was the most powerful and skilled Niman user on record, taking it to its highest form, he mastered it to such a degree that he could easily use the Force to randomly turn one or both blades on and off mid-combat with no manual button, he could also do the same thing and change the length of each blade as he saw fit, as he gained esoteric levels of power in the dark side he threw any type of moderation or balance out of his lightsaber style and incorporated highly proficient levels of Juyo and Ataru(in the form of Force flight), this was so powerful that masters of Djem-So Vodo Siosk Baas and Ulic Qel-Droma had to stay on the defensive and in one case was totally overpowered and killed(Baas). Exar Kun is the third strongest Sith of all times, so it's something am I missing about Darth Sidious, no. Because Exar Kun would ragdoll him with very much difficulty, and he would need full weeks to recover after a peach battle with Sidious. At this time, only Vitiate,Nihilus and Sidious can compete in raw power with him(of course Vitiate and Nihilus far outstrip Exar Kun in raw power and would easily kill him) Only Sidious can compete in raw Force power, not lightsaber mastery, and still Sidious would lose, as I said, though Kun would be severely weakened, and would need full weeks to recover.

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And how in the hell could you say that Nihilus>Sidious!?

Had Sidious "hungered"' by himself, himself alone, entire worlds in just a few seconds?

Had Sidious Force ripped a 3,5 km Centurion ship like nothing and keep it throughout the galaxy while keeping alive his zombie crew?

Had Sidious's mere presence mind bent most of beings?

Had he ever managed to cut off someone from the Force before his "prime"(Traya case)

Could he sense beings far, far away from the galaxy?

Had Sidious needed to be weakened by someone in order to be defeated, and still called, "He's too strong..."?

Why Krayt came to Nihilus, Bane and Andeddu to search for Sith knowledge instead of Palpatine-the strongest Shit* of all times?

Sidious would be at best a huge asteroid compared to Nihilus who's like a massive planet.

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TheVivas

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@freedon_nadd_1: Just stop. I've read all of that before, and it's just you wanking their abilities to high hell and back. Neither of them have better feats. Get over it.

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jumpstart55

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#43  Edited By jumpstart55

You just haven't been initiated yet. As a military commander and governing official The guy single handily brought down to the entire Republic while running it from the inside. He wiped out almost all of the Jedi completely while at the same time completely decimating the Jedi Order of the old republic. Ran an empire that suffered no major military defeats for nearly two decades. And as a sith, the guy was unmatched. He outmatched Darth Maul and Savage Opress(Two Top tier level Sith lords) while holding back and was probably only using 25 percent of his true abilities as a duleist and force user. He fought grandmaster Yoda to a standstill. And Yoda is said to have been easily one of the most powerful force users ever. The guy had a better knowledge of the force then just about anybody with the exception of Darth Plagueis the guy who taught him. Sidoius could do things with the force most Jedi and Sith only dreamed of. Hate him or love him, the guy was just on a different from anybody else. He was quite literally two steps ahead of everyone for majority of the Star Wars series.

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Freedon_nadd_1

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#44  Edited By Freedon_nadd_1

@jumpstart55 said:

You just haven't been initiated yet. As a military commander and governing official The guy single handily brought down to the entire Republic while running it from the inside. He wiped out almost all of the Jedi completely while at the same time completely decimating the Jedi Order of the old republic. Ran an empire that suffered no major military defeats for nearly two decades. And as a sith, the guy was unmatched. He outmatched Darth Maul and Savage Opress(Two Top tier level Sith lords) while holding back and was probably only using 25 percent of his true abilities as a duleist and force user. He fought grandmaster Yoda to a standstill. And Yoda is said to have been easily one of the most powerful force users ever. The guy had a better knowledge of the force then just about anybody with the exception of Darth Plagueis the guy who taught him. Sidoius could do things with the force most Jedi and Sith only dreamed of. Hate him or love him, the guy was just on a different from anybody else. He was quite literally two steps ahead of everyone for majority of the Star Wars series.

You clearly describe: his political power, galactic influence, and Dark Side knowledge. He didn't destroy the Jedi Order by raw Force power(as the Sith Triumvirate had done in the First Jedi Purge), he did it by cunning, and...

By the way, in Sidious's Purge there were dozens of Jedi spread throughout the galaxy, in the First Jedi Purge there were like, ten...

One does not have to be the strongest Sith Lord, in order to be the greatest of them all and seize full control over the galaxy. Lucas shows us that the smartest one will always prevail, not the strongest one. This is a lesson, Sidious understood and sets him higher than the rest of the ancient Sith Lords.

The first moment when you put Opress in skill equal to Maul, I laughed. And Sidious defeated them via Force power, not via lightsaber mastery. Via Force with Yoda, the two Zabrak brothers, Luke Skywalker(Dark Empire), should I say more?

Yes, I agree, "...most Jedi and Sith only dreamed of.", but Exar Kun, Darth Nihilus or Vitiate/Valkorion don't enter in this category.

I can't speak to your rage about anything other than Palpatine, but I can tell you that no matter your attunement to the Force or your raw power, intelligence and treachery trump all. Palpatine's true power wasn't the Force, it was his brain. The end.

@thevivasJust stop. I've read all of that before, and it's just you wanking their abilities to high hell and back. Neither of them have better feats. Get over it.

And you still didn't refute my argument, you still didn't come with an answer for my question.

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Guru_Crack

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@mije_101: I read some of the thread but seriously how does Sidious get anywhere near killing Nihilus?

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Guru_Crack

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@thevivas: Really you think Sidious is stronger than Nihilus? @jumpstart55: Darth Sidious is one of the most powerful sith lords. I did read Freedom Nadds explanation why Exar Kun is above him but honestly I read Tales of the jedi which had Exar Kun in and he was less impressive in that to be honest. I do have to agree with Freedon_nadd_1 that Sidious almost destroyed the jedi which is impressive but he done it with strategy not sheer force. That doesn't prove he's weaker than the other sith lords who did kill the Jedi with brute strength as the jedi could of easily had been stronger in Sidious day.

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WollfMyth209

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@mije_101: I read some of the thread but seriously how does Sidious get anywhere near killing Nihilus?

Blitzing and/or stomping in a duel, plus being canonically above him in power and knowing Drain resistence.

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Guru_Crack

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@wollfmyth209: But Sidious would die by the mere presence of Nihilus. it's a stupid comment.

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@guru_crack: No he wouldn't, lol. Nihilus couldn't even kill Visas Marr or Meetra Surik with his presence, and those two are less than nothing compared to Sidious' power. Nihilus' presence doesn't kill, at best you have a quote from Kreia which is clearly inaccurate otherwise he'd kill her just by standing there. Nihilus kills through hunger, through Drain, something Sidious can counter as he knows Drain resistence.