Darth Maul chokes in all of his fights.

Avatar image for alextheboss
AlexTheBoss

24084

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

The new episode of TCW inspired me to make this video.

Avatar image for killbilly
KillBilly

6330

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#2  Edited By KillBilly

Damn. Solid video bro. Agreed on all points.

Avatar image for alextheboss
AlexTheBoss

24084

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

@killbilly: Thanks! I just feel so conflicted because the clone wars and rebels give Maul his best moments, but also his most embracing ones.

Avatar image for deactivated-5ea4cd9960518
deactivated-5ea4cd9960518

80

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

My boi :(

Avatar image for krasny
Krasny

491

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#6  Edited By Krasny

@alextheboss: agreed, but one thing i would say, padawan,knight ,master i dont think that should matter. Anakin as a padawan i would put above a lot of knights and masters. And Obi and Ahsoka are basically knights. Ahsoka would have been made Knight if she returned to the Jedi order in season 5 and obi was practically their to be made knight.

Avatar image for grinningf0x
Grinningf0x

1936

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again

Being more experienced than someone rarely matters much in Star Wars

Avatar image for rlm2018
RLM2018

39

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

I wouldn’t say he chokes in all of them. He gets a bit cocky once he has his opponent beat and underestimates them. Examples would be he beat Obi Wan as a padawan, but underestimated him and was caught off guard. He had Ahsoka disarmed and dead to rights, but wanted a flashy kill rather than cutting the beam. Ahsoka fought very intelligently, which helped bridge the skill gap.

In total though, he does have really good fights.

1. Beat Obi Wan on sabers in TCW S5

2. Beat Grievous twice in the Son of Dathomir comic

3. Fought a serious palpatine and landed a strike (something only Mace Windu and Yoda have done on screen)

4. It’s not big, but he had no trouble fighting three inquisitors

5. He didn’t choke when fighting Ahsoka in Rebels, though the fight was unfinished neither could land a meaningful blow in 2 minutes

6. He fought Mace Windu and Ayla

7. He dominated Savage in three moves

Avatar image for alextheboss
AlexTheBoss

24084

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

@krasny: Yes, rank isn't everything, but Anakin was the chosen one and he was 19, yet he still seems weaker than the 17 year old Ahsoka. And yeah, Obi-wan and Ahsoka were basically knights, but again, Obi-wan was in his twenties and was clearly weaker than TPM Maul, while Ahsoka did better than Qui-gon (a master) and Kenobi (basically a knight) at the same time against an even stronger version of Maul.

Avatar image for alextheboss
AlexTheBoss

24084

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again

Being more experienced than someone rarely matters much in Star Wars

Well it does seem that way considering Rey beat Kylo even though she never held a lightsaber before, how Luke beat Vader with far less experience, and now with this. However that doesn't make it any less dumb.

Avatar image for grinningf0x
Grinningf0x

1936

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

@alextheboss: circumstances abound in those examples but they are relevant so I’ll give you that

Best guess? In canon your connection to the Force is more important than experience and skill. I’m not asserting that skill plays zero part in victory or even that it’s unimportant, just that Force power is a bigger part of who wins.

Avatar image for grinningf0x
Grinningf0x

1936

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

Subscribed btw

Avatar image for deactivated-5eadbe7fcf64f
deactivated-5eadbe7fcf64f

6956

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

Lets face it Alex its PIS Maul does beat Kenobi and Ashoka but he cant win the battle or kill them because that goes against the plot basically its just one of those things its happened in almost every SWs battle.

Avatar image for alextheboss
AlexTheBoss

24084

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

@grinningf0x: Thanks for the sub. And yeah, connection the force is very important, but Maul was the son of mother talzin and Sidious kidnapped him due to his potential. He was apparently the only one to see through Sidious plan with a force vision, something none of the jedi or Dooku were able to do. He also had that pretty cool feat of casually swiping away blaster fire mid flight this episode. Based off of everything we've seen, Maul's connection to the force should be far stronger than Ahsoka's at this point. You can argue Maul kind of gave up on the inside though, as he was basically begging for death at the end of the episode.

Avatar image for alextheboss
AlexTheBoss

24084

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

@finalkingthanos: Yeah, that's definitely the out of universe reason. But they can honsetly get the same result without PIS. Bo and Rex could have stayed and helped team up on Maul, or the clones could have saved Ashoka at the end stunning Maul in the back before he could kill her.

Avatar image for mrsportsguy13
Mrsportsguy13

2080

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

Erkan12 won't like this lol.

Avatar image for killbilly
KillBilly

6330

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

Just watched your Escanor video. Your powerscaling and logic is very airtight. Subscribed to your channel.

Avatar image for mrsportsguy13
Mrsportsguy13

2080

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

Also great video and subbed!

Avatar image for alextheboss
AlexTheBoss

24084

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

Avatar image for mrsportsguy13
Mrsportsguy13

2080

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

Avatar image for grinningf0x
Grinningf0x

1936

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

@grinningf0x: Thanks for the sub. And yeah, connection the force is very important, but Maul was the son of mother talzin and Sidious kidnapped him due to his potential. He was apparently the only one to see through Sidious plan with a force vision, something none of the jedi or Dooku were able to do. He also had that pretty cool feat of casually swiping away blaster fire mid flight this episode. Based off of everything we've seen, Maul's connection to the force should be far stronger than Ahsoka's at this point. You can argue Maul kind of gave up on the inside though, as he was basically begging for death at the end of the episode.

Yeah Maul has serious potential And practiced power but imo none of that puts him above ahsoka in potential . I’d say Ahsoka has more potential , and just as much useful experience . By that I mean she’s faced multiple lightsaber wielding foes in heated combat and fought in a war imo thats just as good as decades of just pure training

Avatar image for eslay03
eslay03

3173

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#22  Edited By eslay03

Maul usually loses not due to a lack of pure skill but due to an excess of pride and confidence. This is why he lost to the likes of TPM Kenobi and Kanan. If he was more grounded and level headed, he would fair much better.

Take Kenobi for example, his biggest strength isn’t his skill, but his head. Don’t get me wrong, Kenobi is extremely skilled, but he consistently beats people above him in skill by simply outsmarting, or baiting them.

Avatar image for wolverinebatmanftw
WolverineBatmanFTW

7806

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 1

User Lists: 0

Let's just face it. He's very cool and very skilled... but ultimately an idiot.

Avatar image for speedforceoberon
SpeedForceOberon

166

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

Darth Jobber

Avatar image for alextheboss
AlexTheBoss

24084

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#26  Edited By AlexTheBoss

bump due to the new and improved thumbnail

Avatar image for kbroskywalker
kbroskywalker

13535

Forum Posts

142

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 1

User Lists: 0

@rlm2018 said:

I wouldn’t say he chokes in all of them. He gets a bit cocky once he has his opponent beat and underestimates them. Examples would be he beat Obi Wan as a padawan, but underestimated him and was caught off guard. He had Ahsoka disarmed and dead to rights, but wanted a flashy kill rather than cutting the beam. Ahsoka fought very intelligently, which helped bridge the skill gap.

In total though, he does have really good fights.

1. Beat Obi Wan on sabers in TCW S5

What?

Avatar image for amonfire1776
Amonfire1776

3630

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

@alextheboss: Ashoka was probably light side amped by the daughter...it would really explain a lot...

Avatar image for kbroskywalker
kbroskywalker

13535

Forum Posts

142

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 1

User Lists: 0

The new episode of TCW inspired me to make this video.

Loading Video...

The real problem here is you're cherrypicking maul's showings and giving him things which didn't happen

-> He barely fights mace. There's nothing here.

-> Oppress does choke dooku and ventress, but he also gets fodderized by kenobi on florrum, struggles with an unarmed ventress, and is fodderized by both maul and dooku at various points.

-> He doesn't hold his own vs sidious. He literally is pinned to the wall within a few seconds and starwars.com makes clear sidious was toying with him. Again, there's nothing there.

You curiously excluded him

-> torturing kenobi with oppress and still getting taken out in 40 seconds

-> getting embarassed by kenobi while he had the aid of oppress

Finally, you say "Ahsoka should have been far above maul in rebels", ignoring that

-> Malachor was a darkside nexus

-> They only fought for 50 seconds(and even then only ahsoka ever gained ground)

And this all relies on the assumption that rebels maul is weaker or equal to tcw maul which has never been definitively proven.

Maul is somewhat of a choker, but you're greatly overstating this by giving maul non-feats(oh wow he defended a strike from mace windu!!!!!!!!!) and then blatantly ignoring explicit context(sidious was toying with maul, he never held his own)

Avatar image for alextheboss
AlexTheBoss

24084

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

@kbroskywalker:

-> He barely fights mace. There's nothing here.

Every single lightsaber in that entire comic was only a panel or two. EVERY SINGLE ONE! That means we can assume that Maul and Mace fought for at least a short while. It's not like they just clashed and stopped. And when someone brought up how Maul contended with Mace in the comic to someone who works with the star wars canon, he just said star wars fights aren't a mathematical equation, and he didn't say it was because the fight was barely a fight.

-> Oppress does choke dooku and ventress, but he also gets fodderized by kenobi on florrum, struggles with an unarmed ventress, and is fodderized by both maul and dooku at various points.

He doesn't get fodderized by Kenobi. Kenobi just kept abusing his knee until he finally gave out. Kenobi is definitely more skilled than Savage though.

-> He doesn't hold his own vs sidious. He literally is pinned to the wall within a few seconds and starwars.com makes clear sidious was toying with him. Again, there's nothing there.

He was pinned to the wall while Maul was bowing to him and not expecting an attack... Sidious showed signs of being tired in that fight and Maul even landed a kick and Sidious looked pissed after that. Sidious was having fun with them, but Maul did make him put in some effort. The fact he needed to go himself proves how much of a threat they were. He must have thought Dooku couldn't get the job done, so he went himself. Dooku himself was afraid of Savage's increasing power, and sensed something sinister was rising (reffering to Maul). Dooku also said if Savage trained enough he could rival "the great sith lord Darth Maul" which means Dooku thought very highly of even TPM Maul.

You curiously excluded him

-> torturing kenobi with oppress and still getting taken out in 40 seconds

What are you talking about? Maul was never once taken out by Kenobi in the clone wars.

-> getting embarassed by kenobi while he had the aid of oppress

Again, this never happened. Kenobi cut Savage's arm of and then Maul force blasted him away.

Ventress has fought Kenobi and Anakin at the same time on multiple occasions yet she is inferior to both of them individually. You need to stop letting your bias cloud your judgement. TCW Kenobi and Maul are near equals.

And this all relies on the assumption that rebels maul is weaker or equal to tcw maul which has never been definitively proven.

Multiple statements from the people who made the show and the VA for Maul implied he wasn't in his prime, though I don't have a problem myself with Rebels Maul being his prime. But I doubt he was much better than TCW Maul.

Maul is somewhat of a choker, but you're greatly overstating this by giving maul non-feats(oh wow he defended a strike from mace windu!!!!!!!!!) and then blatantly ignoring explicit context(sidious was toying with maul, he never held his own)

Addressed above.

Avatar image for lord_tenebrous
Lord_Tenebrous

7015

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

@kbroskywalker:

He barely fights mace. There's nothing here.

Nope, the comic fight spanned 9 panels, and comic fights are always much longer than they appear. It was a decent fight, in terms of length, and one in which Maul had the upper hand.

Avatar image for kbroskywalker
kbroskywalker

13535

Forum Posts

142

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 1

User Lists: 0

#32  Edited By kbroskywalker

@alextheboss:

Every single lightsaber in that entire comic was only a panel or two. EVERY SINGLE ONE! That means we can assume that Maul and Mace fought for at least a short while.

A. Any assumption on fight length is baseless, even if we ignore the actual demonstrated length of the fight.

B. Them fighting a short while doesn't indicate any degree of parity.

What are you talking about? Maul was never once taken out by Kenobi in the clone wars.

Here ya go:

https://youtu.be/NYv_gHAKp1I

If Kenobi chooses to finish maul instead of saving ventress this fight is over. This is as much a victory as Maul's against TPM Kenobi. And it took 40 seconds. Remember when you said Ahsoka, who vader was unable to decisively beat in 2 minuites and 30 seconds of fighting was out of Vader's weight class?

Be consistent, please.

Again, this never happened. Kenobi cut Savage's arm of and then Maul force blasted him away.

Kenobi landed multiple hits on maul and then forced him to leap backwards to avoid being sliced with a few seconds of an offensive flurry:

https://youtu.be/U-Lww1aKZAQ?t=201

Recall, Vader, who is supposedly out of Ahsoka's league, needed 30 seconds of sustained pressure to gain similar ground. Also recall that in 2 minuites and a half of fighting Vader was never ever to land any physical blows. By comparison not only does Kenobi consistently land multiple blows when they fight, but his hits consistently take maul several records to recover from. Even when fighting defensively Kenobi lands a hit that maul takes 7 seconds to get over by. And the only reason Kenobi doesn't press there is because he leaps to try and save adi galia.

Remember, your video cites Maul landing a kick on secura as impressive. What does that make Kenobi landing hits, directly on maul, while dealing with oppress?

How can you claim Maul is a Kenobi level combatant, when the demonstrated disparity between these two is larger than the one between two characters you say aren't even in the same weight class?

Multiple statements from the people who made the show and the VA for Maul implied he wasn't in his prime,

Cite them please. We only have two statements that I'm aware of that pertain to dueling. Filoni saying Maul had grown as a duelist and Matt Martin saying Maul was rusty. And again, I'll repeat, they only fought for 50 seconds. In those 50 seconds it was Ahsoka, not Maul who gained ground, and it was Ahsoka, not maul who was making the other stumble backwards on bladelocks. Its curious vader, who you repeatedly have claimed isn't in ahsoka's weight class, is never able to force ahsoka to stumble backwards despite engaging in far more bouts of strength during the second half of their fight.

There's nothing that precludes Ahsoka from being far above maul in rebels. Just like there is nothing that ties maul to Kenobi as a equal. You could try to argue Maul's force showings, but those are no less circumstantial than ROS Ahsoka gripping maul for an eternity after he catches him falling.

He was pinned to the wall while Maul was bowing to him and not expecting an attack. Sidious showed signs of being tired in that fight and Maul even landed a kick and Sidious looked pissed after that. Sidious was having fun with them, but Maul did make him put in some effort.

That's besides the point. If sidious wanted the fight to end there, he could have. He chose not to. Why? Because, as is explicitly stated, sidious was toying with him. You assuming any sort of parity between the two here is pure speculation. The part of the fight he landed a kick for is explcitly stated to be a part of the fight where sidious is toying with maul. And this portion of the fight has sidious disarm maul in 10 seconds.You know what happened before those 10 seconds? Maul had been ko'd with the force. Sidious, while toying with him had maul beat in 10 seconds in a 1V1. Why would you even bring that up? Maul did not hold his own, he got stomped while being toyed with. There's no comparison here.

Ventress has fought Kenobi and Anakin at the same time on multiple occasions

She has fought both of them while actively retreating in an environment of her choosing, and even then, unlike kenobi vs maul and oppress, she's been knocked down, forced to fall, gotten kicked, ect. Furthermore, when facing either individually, she has been outright stomped. There is no comparison here.

You need to stop letting your bias cloud your judgement. TCW Kenobi and Maul are near equals.

Everyone has bias. All that matters here is your ability to support your claims which off course you have failed to do. Kenobi and maul are not near equals by your own measuring stick. You disregarding specific events and context in fights doesn't change that.

Avatar image for aostvapp
AOSTVAPP

2

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

Working together, he and the Jedi ascend towards the top of the temple and successfully kill all three Inquisitors. Then, Maul reveals his intention to take Ezra as his apprentice, having already tricked him into activating the temple https://aostv.in/aos-tv-apk-download

Avatar image for alextheboss
AlexTheBoss

24084

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

@kbroskywalker:

Here ya go:

https://youtu.be/NYv_gHAKp1I

If Kenobi chooses to finish maul instead of saving ventress this fight is over. This is as much a victory as Maul's against TPM Kenobi. And it took 40 seconds. Remember when you said Ahsoka, who vader was unable to decisively beat in 2 minuites and 30 seconds of fighting was out of Vader's weight class?

Be consistent, please.

That's not how choreographed fights, especially not animated ones in the CW work. Just look at the scene where Savage clearly could have killed Ventress but decided to throw her instead.

No Caption Provided

You can't try to look that far into it. And if you really want to, then the reason is Maul was still getting used to his new legs. I would like to see you try to fight a jedi master after your height, balance, ect. completely changed.

Kenobi flat out stated they were outmatched. You can't honestly think he was outmatched by someone who was below his weight class. And if you really want to try and argue it was because of Savage they were outmatched, Maul got stronger and stomped Savage in the next season.

Kenobi landed multiple hits on maul and then forced him to leap backwards to avoid being sliced with a few seconds of an offensive flurry:

Ok, he was desperately fighting for his life after his friend just got killed, while Maul thought he and Savage had no chance of losing.

Cite them please. We only have two statements that I'm aware of that pertain to dueling. Filoni saying Maul had grown as a duelist and Matt Martin saying Maul was rusty.

There is one from the voice actor of Maul. And I'm fine with Rebels Maul being prime. The picture I posted in the tier list isn't TCW Maul, it's Maul from solo, and it's supposed to represent Maul in his prime, no matter what time period you think that is.

She has fought both of them while actively retreating in an environment of her choosing, and even then, unlike kenobi vs maul and oppress, she's been knocked down, forced to fall, gotten kicked, ect. Furthermore, when facing either individually, she has been outright stomped. There is no comparison here.

And Kenobi was in a tight hallway with two lightsabers swinging them around like a mad man, it wouldn't be easy to take advantage of your numbers in that situation.

Everyone has bias. All that matters here is your ability to support your claims which off course you have failed to do.

Holistic portrayal and author's intent have Maul and Kenobi being relative to each other. The only time Kenobi becomes out of his league is by the time of Rebels, as Kenobi grew as a person, while Maul didn't.

Kenobi and maul are not near equals by your own measuring stick.

I think you mean by your measuring stick of using bad animated fight choreography. It's like saying Snoke's guard is better than Rey because he should have killed her if his weapon didn't magically disappear.

You disregarding specific events and context in fights doesn't change that.

I'm not.

Qui-gon should at least be close to TCW Kenobi, and Maul was his superior even in the phantom menace.

Kenobi and Ventress were outmatched by Maul and Savage. Kenobi's rage unbalanced him, but as a jedi master he should have been able to recover, and he did seem like he wasn't angry anymore when he said that.

Maul got a good deal stronger since then, so even if he wasn't on Kenobi's level before that point, he should be after his stated growth in power. At least in the same tier, even if you want to argue he is lower in that tier.

Filoni confirms that Savage did better against Sidioius than the council members did, and Maul did even better than Savage. That means Fisto + to other masters combined should be weaker than Maul. Fisto by himself stalemated Grievous.

Maul didn't get steamrolled by Mace and Aayla. Even if the fight was really short, he shouldn't be more than one tier below him.

Maul dueled on par with Rebel's Ahsoka.

Maul has some of the best force feats in canon.

Maul has overpowered Kenobi with the force multiple times.

There is honestly no reasonable argument for TCW Kenobi being a tier above prime Maul.

Avatar image for kbroskywalker
kbroskywalker

13535

Forum Posts

142

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 1

User Lists: 0

#35  Edited By kbroskywalker

@alextheboss:

You can't honestly think he was outmatched by someone who was below his weight class.

Huh? Your tier list has Maul above ROS Ahsoka despite, per Filoni's own words, "she had to win", implying she won when they fought.

Starwars.com says TPM Kenobi "defeated" Maul. Is TPM Kenobi in TPM Maul's weight class?

Or....how about we just use the example you've provided us:

Fisto by himself stalemated Grievous.

Fisto stalemated grevious in a certain set of circumstances. Yet earlier in the episode, fisto tells his padawan that the two of them had no chance of beating grevious in a straight fight, essentially admitting, they were out of his weight class. It's almost like the contextsurrounding Fisto's fight allowed him to compete. :o

Context matters, unless you can ignore it to prop up maul :/

That's not how choreographed fights, especially not animated ones in the CW work. Just look at the scene where Savage clearly could have killed Ventress but decided to throw her instead.

Yeah, you're missing a step:

https://youtu.be/NYv_gHAKp1I?t=70

Oppress doesn't "have a chance to kill ventress" because his lightsaber is deactivated. Do you know why it's deactivated? Because in the previous frame Ventress kicks oppress and oppress deactivates it so he doesn't end up skewering himself as he's coming close to his light saber.

That's not how choreographed fights, especially not animated ones in the CW work.

What do you mean that's not how they work. Am I supposed to assume events on screen aren't on screen because they don't fit your interpretation of holistic potrayal? And why is this 'bad choreography' absent from Vader's fight with Ahsoka? You're using speculation to ignore things that objectively happened. Come the ---- on.

Holistic portrayal and author's intent have Maul and Kenobi being relative to each other.

And holistic potrayal doesn't have vader and ahsoka being relative to each other because... What exactly is the difference here?

I think you mean by your measuring stick of using bad animated fight choreography.

No, I mean your own measuring stick of Ahsoka vs Vader. What makes kenobi vs maul's fights closer? Where is the holistic intent in kenobi v maul that is somehow absent in vader vs Ahsoka. Like you realize ahsoka vs vader is the showdown all of rebels season 2 builds towards? Be consistent. Either Ahsoka is in vader's weight class, or maul is not in Kenobi's.

Qui-gon should at least be close to TCW Kenobi

Says who?

Maul dueled on par with Rebel's Ahsoka.

Maul vs Ahsoka was half as long as Ahsoka vs Vader. There's nothing that says they're equals. Furthermore holistic intent really disagrees with you, because as far as holistic intent is concerned, Ahsoka faced off against a force user maul didn't think he could beat on his own, and Ahsoka quite literally leaves him to get his ass kicked by Kanan. I'm going to ask one more time, if holistic intent puts kenobi on the same weight class as vader, why doesn't it also put Ahsoka in the same weight class as vader?

Ok, he was desperately fighting for his life after his friend just got killed, while Maul thought he and Savage had no chance of losing.

What? Citation needed. Why is maul's lifelong hatred for kenobi less significant than Kenobi losing a fellow jedi? Why do you need to make up context when I can just bring up things which are explicitly shown?

Maul has overpowered Kenobi with the force multiple times.

And ROS Ahsoka literally overpowered Kenobi., but that isn't stopping you from keeping her a tier below.

Like, seriously, stop with the double standards. Kenobi kicks maul's ass but holistic intent means that's just bad chereography. But Vader isn't able to end ahsoka in over 2 minuites on a nexus and you're still refusing to put Ahsoka in his tier? Be consistent. If maul is a near equal of cw kenobi, than Ahsoka is in the same tier as Vader.

How is Ahsoka even alive if Vader is somehow out of her league?

Avatar image for alextheboss
AlexTheBoss

24084

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#36  Edited By AlexTheBoss

@kbroskywalker:

Huh? Your tier list has Maul above ROS Ahsoka despite, per Filoni's own words, "she had to win", implying she won when they fought.

Starwars.com says TPM Kenobi "defeated" Maul. Is TPM Kenobi in TPM Maul's weight class?

Winning and being outmatched are two different things... I'm outmatched by a pro mma fighter, but I can still win with a lucky KO. These are things that shouldn't need explaining, come on.

Fisto stalemated grevious in a certain set of circumstances. Yet earlier in the episode, fisto tells his padawan that the two of them had no chance of beating grevious in a straight fight, essentially admitting, they were out of his weight class. It's almost like the contextsurrounding Fisto's fight allowed him to compete. :o

Context matters, unless you can ignore it to prop up maul :/

Are you ignoring the part where I put Grievous above Fisto? I even have it in my script where I will mention Fisto only had the edge due to circumstances. And can I see the line Fisto says the two of them can't beat Grievous in a straight up fight? That would be good evidence to add to my video.

Oppress doesn't "have a chance to kill ventress" because his lightsaber is deactivated. Do you know why it's deactivated? Because in the previous frame Ventress kicks oppress and oppress deactivates it so he doesn't end up skewering himself as he's coming close to his light saber.

It takes a fraction of a second to turn it on, and he can turn on one side if he is afraid of cutting himself, not that he would have. There was plenty of time for him to angle his saber and turn it on so it kills her and not him.

What do you mean that's not how they work. Am I supposed to assume events on screen aren't on screen because they don't fit your interpretation of holistic potrayal?

I'm saying that there are points in fights where it looks like one character should have logically cut the other but didn't or punched or kicked them instead. That doesn't automatically mean they should be considered the winner. If Obi-wan could have killed Maul there, he should have.

And why is this 'bad choreography' absent from Vader's fight with Ahsoka?

Lol, it's not. Literally the opening attack Ahsoka runs up to Vader and kicks him in the face instead of stabbing him. Vader's lightsaber was off to his right side and there was literally nothing stopping Ahsoka from attacking with her right saber.

And holistic potrayal doesn't have vader and ahsoka being relative to each other because... What exactly is the difference here?

??? I do think they are relative to each other. Vader had clear difficulty with her.

No, I mean your own measuring stick of Ahsoka vs Vader. What makes kenobi vs maul's fights closer? Where is the holistic intent in kenobi v maul that is somehow absent in vader vs Ahsoka. Like you realize ahsoka vs vader is the showdown all of rebels season 2 builds towards? Be consistent. Either Ahsoka is in vader's weight class, or maul is not in Kenobi's.

A fight between Kenobi and Maul could go either way. Vader beats Ahsoka at least 8-9 out of 10 times. Ahsoka will give him a run for his money every time, but her chances of winning are very low.

Says who?

Dooku was disappointed in ep 2 Kenobi, so he was likely not stronger than Qui-gon, and Qui-gon held his own against Maul for a while.

Maul vs Ahsoka was half as long as Ahsoka vs Vader. There's nothing that says they're equals. Furthermore holistic intent really disagrees with you, because as far as holistic intent is concerned,

I said they dueled on par with each other, not that they were equals. I do think they are close, but Ahsoka has a strong case for being superior, which is why I put her above Maul.

Ahsoka faced off against a force user maul didn't think he could beat on his own,

She didn't really have a choice. And Maul was clearly planning on killing Ahsoka and Kanan and fighting Vader on his own anyways.

and Ahsoka quite literally leaves him to get his ass kicked by Kanan.

I can argue she had to do that to save Ezra. If she was any later Ezra would have died. And we can clearly see from their performance against the Inquisitors that Maul was better than Kanan.

I'm going to ask one more time, if holistic intent puts kenobi on the same weight class as vader, why doesn't it also put Ahsoka in the same weight class as vader?

Kenobi and Vader were shown to be almost dead even in ep4. Ahsoka was on the back foot the entire fight. Kenobi also beat Maul in three moves, which also backs him being in that tier.

What? Citation needed. Why is maul's lifelong hatred for kenobi less significant than Kenobi losing a fellow jedi? Why do you need to make up context when I can just bring up things which are explicitly shown?

Maul didn't even want to fight... Literally in that episode he said it was too soon, and that he had plans and didn't want Kenobi the be there. We also later learn he never wanted to kill Kenobi... Like, these are all things stated by Maul himself in the show.

And ROS Ahsoka literally overpowered Kenobi.

When? Or did you mean Maul?

Like, seriously, stop with the double standards. Kenobi kicks maul's ass but holistic intent means that's just bad chereography.

Except he didn't kick Maul's ass, Kenobi LITERALLY LOST! And you conveniently left out my argument how Maul was still getting used to his legs.

But Vader isn't able to end ahsoka in over 2 minuites on a nexus and you're still refusing to put Ahsoka in his tier? Be consistent.

The gaps between my tiers aren't huge, and iirc Filoni said Vader wasn't going for the kill until the "you will die" line.

How is Ahsoka even alive if Vader is somehow out of her league?

Because Ezra literally went through time to save her? Lmao. Why do you keep concistently leaving out major lines and events that happen in the show?