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#1 Edited by Zetsumoto (16076 posts) - - Show Bio

Seriously. She kills people all the time, but someone kills her father (who she knew did bad things just like the people she kills) and suddenly she wants revenge? Really? How is it not possible for someone like her to see the clear hypocrisy in her motivations? Even her sister who had seemed far more hot-blooded in comparison handled the situation better.

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#2 Posted by PeterParkerJr (5895 posts) - - Show Bio

"My Father was a bad man. But he was still my Father. So instead of coming after you myself, I trained this random guy because you killed his Father too."

Sheesh. Still loving Season 5, tho.

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#3 Posted by entropy_aegis (18620 posts) - - Show Bio

Guggy doesn't care, those were her motives in the Nolan trilogy, NOW THAT'S what this talentless stealing hack cares about.

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#4 Posted by uugieboogie (10715 posts) - - Show Bio

Guggy doesn't care, those were her motives in the Nolan trilogy, NOW THAT'S what this talentless stealing hack cares about.

Damn, I didn't even notice this lol.

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#6 Posted by The Stegman (37325 posts) - - Show Bio

What's worse, Ra's wanted Ollie to kill him so he could become the new Ra's.

So, really, Ollie did nothing wrong.

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#7 Edited by Rubear (4242 posts) - - Show Bio

@zetsumoto said:

She kills people all the time, but someone kills her father (who she knew did bad things) and suddenly she wants revenge?

Yeah know, there is a big difference between father and that random guy to left.

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#8 Posted by RBT (12271 posts) - - Show Bio

This makes absolutely no sense. Why wouldn't Talia be upset about Oliver killing her father?

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#9 Posted by Zetsumoto (16076 posts) - - Show Bio

@rubear: lol no. If she can't think "gee, I wonder how many of the bad men I have killed had children", then she's absurdly short sighted to the point of being a terribly written character.

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#10 Posted by Zetsumoto (16076 posts) - - Show Bio

@rbt said:

This makes absolutely no sense. Why wouldn't Talia be upset about Oliver killing her father?

Because she knew her father did bad things, and she kills bad people all the time. Plenty of her victims likely had children or other close family members. She'd have to be stupidly short-sighted to not see the sheer hypocrisy of the situation.

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#11 Posted by RBT (12271 posts) - - Show Bio

@rbt said:

This makes absolutely no sense. Why wouldn't Talia be upset about Oliver killing her father?

Because she knew her father did bad things, and she kills bad people all the time. Plenty of her victims likely had children or other close family members. She'd have to be stupidly short-sighted to not see the sheer hypocrisy of the situation.

You're basically describing every comic book character who kills here. Take MCU Punisher for example. His main motive was that his family was murdered. So, he takes a gun and starts killing people who most likely has families. Does that sound hypocritical to you?

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#12 Posted by Rubear (4242 posts) - - Show Bio

@rubear: lol no. If she can't think "gee, I wonder how many of the bad men I have killed had children", then she's absurdly short sighted to the point of being a terribly written character.

Lol yes. Why she'd even care about it? It's not personal. In case of her father it is personal.

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#13 Posted by Zetsumoto (16076 posts) - - Show Bio

@rbt said:
@zetsumoto said:
@rbt said:

This makes absolutely no sense. Why wouldn't Talia be upset about Oliver killing her father?

Because she knew her father did bad things, and she kills bad people all the time. Plenty of her victims likely had children or other close family members. She'd have to be stupidly short-sighted to not see the sheer hypocrisy of the situation.

You're basically describing every comic book character who kills here. Take MCU Punisher for example. His main motive was that his family was murdered. So, he takes a gun and starts killing people who most likely has families. Does that sound hypocritical to you?

The Punisher kills dangerous criminals. Particularly the ones responsible for murdering (not all killing is murder), his family. His family members were not criminals, they were not murderers, they were not dangerous. There is a HUGE difference here.

Person A hunts down the serial killer who murdered his daughter. Person B hunts down the cop who shot his son (who was in the middle of shooting up a mall). Are you really saying there is no difference between those two situations?

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#14 Posted by RBT (12271 posts) - - Show Bio

@rbt said:
@zetsumoto said:
@rbt said:

This makes absolutely no sense. Why wouldn't Talia be upset about Oliver killing her father?

Because she knew her father did bad things, and she kills bad people all the time. Plenty of her victims likely had children or other close family members. She'd have to be stupidly short-sighted to not see the sheer hypocrisy of the situation.

You're basically describing every comic book character who kills here. Take MCU Punisher for example. His main motive was that his family was murdered. So, he takes a gun and starts killing people who most likely has families. Does that sound hypocritical to you?

The Punisher kills dangerous criminals. Particularly the ones responsible for murdering (not all killing is murder), his family. His family members were not criminals, they were not murderers, they were not dangerous. There is a HUGE difference here.

Person A hunts down the serial killer who murdered his daughter. Person B hunts down the cop who shot his son (who was in the middle of shooting up a mall). Are you really saying there is no difference between those two situations?

Ah, fair enough.

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#15 Posted by Zetsumoto (16076 posts) - - Show Bio

@rubear said:
@zetsumoto said:

@rubear: lol no. If she can't think "gee, I wonder how many of the bad men I have killed had children", then she's absurdly short sighted to the point of being a terribly written character.

Lol yes. Why she'd even care about it? It's not personal. In case of her father it is personal.

And that's extremely hypocritical.

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#16 Posted by Rubear (4242 posts) - - Show Bio

@rubear said:
@zetsumoto said:

@rubear: lol no. If she can't think "gee, I wonder how many of the bad men I have killed had children", then she's absurdly short sighted to the point of being a terribly written character.

Lol yes. Why she'd even care about it? It's not personal. In case of her father it is personal.

And that's extremely hypocritical.

Nope. That's just human.

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#17 Posted by Pokeysteve (11318 posts) - - Show Bio

Talia has always been a crap character to me. Writers never know what to do with her.

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#18 Posted by TVC-15 (2704 posts) - - Show Bio

Talia has always been a crap character to me. Writers never know what to do with her.

This.

How Talia has lasted this long as a character is nothing short of a mystery to me.

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#19 Edited by Zetsumoto (16076 posts) - - Show Bio

@rubear said:
@zetsumoto said:
@rubear said:
@zetsumoto said:

@rubear: lol no. If she can't think "gee, I wonder how many of the bad men I have killed had children", then she's absurdly short sighted to the point of being a terribly written character.

Lol yes. Why she'd even care about it? It's not personal. In case of her father it is personal.

And that's extremely hypocritical.

Nope. That's just human.

No it's not. It's called being irrational.

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#20 Posted by Rubear (4242 posts) - - Show Bio

@rubear said:
@zetsumoto said:
@rubear said:
@zetsumoto said:

@rubear: lol no. If she can't think "gee, I wonder how many of the bad men I have killed had children", then she's absurdly short sighted to the point of being a terribly written character.

Lol yes. Why she'd even care about it? It's not personal. In case of her father it is personal.

And that's extremely hypocritical.

Nope. That's just human.

No it's not. It's called being irrational.

Yes it is. Because guess what? Humans are not vulcans.

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#21 Edited by TVC-15 (2704 posts) - - Show Bio

@zetsumoto said:
@rubear said:
@zetsumoto said:
@rubear said:
@zetsumoto said:

@rubear: lol no. If she can't think "gee, I wonder how many of the bad men I have killed had children", then she's absurdly short sighted to the point of being a terribly written character.

Lol yes. Why she'd even care about it? It's not personal. In case of her father it is personal.

And that's extremely hypocritical.

Nope. That's just human.

No it's not. It's called being irrational.

Which again, is being human. People become irrational when it comes to a loved one. This isn't bad writing because of that, this is bad because it's literally her plot from TDKR, and in general, Talia sucks.

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#22 Posted by Zetsumoto (16076 posts) - - Show Bio

@rubear said:
@zetsumoto said:
@rubear said:
@zetsumoto said:
@rubear said:
@zetsumoto said:

@rubear: lol no. If she can't think "gee, I wonder how many of the bad men I have killed had children", then she's absurdly short sighted to the point of being a terribly written character.

Lol yes. Why she'd even care about it? It's not personal. In case of her father it is personal.

And that's extremely hypocritical.

Nope. That's just human.

No it's not. It's called being irrational.

Yes it is. Because guess what? Humans are not vulcans.

You don't have to be a vulcan to use basic rationalization.

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#23 Edited by Zetsumoto (16076 posts) - - Show Bio

@tvc-15 said:
@zetsumoto said:
@rubear said:
@zetsumoto said:
@rubear said:
@zetsumoto said:

@rubear: lol no. If she can't think "gee, I wonder how many of the bad men I have killed had children", then she's absurdly short sighted to the point of being a terribly written character.

Lol yes. Why she'd even care about it? It's not personal. In case of her father it is personal.

And that's extremely hypocritical.

Nope. That's just human.

No it's not. It's called being irrational.

Which again, is being human. People become irrational when it comes to a loved one. This isn't bad writing because of that, this is bad because it's literally her plot from TDKR, and in general, Talia sucks.

That excuse can only stretch so far until a character comes across as an unlikable hypocrite.

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#24 Edited by Rubear (4242 posts) - - Show Bio

@rubear said:
@zetsumoto said:
@rubear said:
@zetsumoto said:
@rubear said:
@zetsumoto said:

@rubear: lol no. If she can't think "gee, I wonder how many of the bad men I have killed had children", then she's absurdly short sighted to the point of being a terribly written character.

Lol yes. Why she'd even care about it? It's not personal. In case of her father it is personal.

And that's extremely hypocritical.

Nope. That's just human.

No it's not. It's called being irrational.

Yes it is. Because guess what? Humans are not vulcans.

You don't have to be a vulcan to use basic rationalization.

You don't bring overrationalization to matters of live and death in family. You don't expect humans to act in accordance only with logic, because humans have emotions and by our nature we humans are egoists. What matters to us is our live, our family, our principles and etc. And what happens to other (especially unknown) people is in best case secondary concern.

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#25 Edited by Zetsumoto (16076 posts) - - Show Bio

@rubear said:

You don't bring overrationalization to matters of live and death in family. You don't expect humans to act in accordance only with logic, because humans have emotions and by our nature we humans are egoists. What matters to us is our live, our family, our principles and etc. And what happens to other (especially unknown) people is in best case secondary concern.

How is this overrationalization? It's some really basic logic. Don't blame someone for something when it's not their fault, especially when you do literally the exact same thing. Worse is that he did exactly what she TAUGHT him to do.

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#26 Posted by Rubear (4242 posts) - - Show Bio

@rubear said:
@zetsumoto said:
@rubear said:
@zetsumoto said:
@rubear said:
@zetsumoto said:
@rubear said:
@zetsumoto said:

@rubear: lol no. If she can't think "gee, I wonder how many of the bad men I have killed had children", then she's absurdly short sighted to the point of being a terribly written character.

Lol yes. Why she'd even care about it? It's not personal. In case of her father it is personal.

And that's extremely hypocritical.

Nope. That's just human.

No it's not. It's called being irrational.

Yes it is. Because guess what? Humans are not vulcans.

You don't have to be a vulcan to use basic rationalization.

You don't bring overrationalization to matters of live and death in family. You don't expect humans to act in accordance only with logic, because humans have emotions and by our nature we humans are egoists. What matters to us is our live, our family, our principles and etc. And what happens to other (especially unknown) people is in best case secondary concern.

How is this overrationalization?

How it is not when you're speaking that somebody should not be upset after her own pupil killed her own father?

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#27 Edited by Zetsumoto (16076 posts) - - Show Bio

@rubear:

It's some really basic logic. Don't blame someone for something when it's not their fault, especially when you do literally the exact same thing.

Yes, it was her own pupil. Who did exactly what she taught him to do.

Are you honestly saying that you'd react the same way she would in the same situation?

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#28 Posted by webinyoureye11 (897 posts) - - Show Bio

@zetsumoto: just wait for the same plan to destroy star city with some kind of mass catastrophe at the end, and Ollie "sacrifices"himself to save the day lol

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#29 Edited by Rubear (4242 posts) - - Show Bio

@zetsumoto said:

@rubear:

It's some really basic logic.

Are you honestly saying that you'd react the same way she would in the same situation?

Logic doesn't fit well with emotions, especially such as grief, rage and hate.
Are you honestly with yourself saying that you'd not react the same way? It's quite possible that i'd react the same way in same situation, but i'd definetly try to make my revenge personally and not through random new pupil who i'd train to kill former pupil)

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#30 Edited by Zetsumoto (16076 posts) - - Show Bio

@rubear said:
@zetsumoto said:

@rubear:

It's some really basic logic.

Are you honestly saying that you'd react the same way she would in the same situation?

Logic doesn't fit well with emotions, especially such as grief, rage and hate.

Are you honestly with yourself saying that you'd not react the same way? It's quite possible that i'd react the same way in same situation, but i'd definetly try to make my revenge personally and not through random new pupil who i'd train to kill former pupil)

Again, that excuse only stretches so far.

Yes. I can honestly say that, and I find it disturbing that you can't.

PS: Is Nessa an unemotional "vulcan" for not reacting the way her sister did?

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#31 Posted by Rubear (4242 posts) - - Show Bio

@rubear said:
@zetsumoto said:

@rubear:

It's some really basic logic.

Are you honestly saying that you'd react the same way she would in the same situation?

Logic doesn't fit well with emotions, especially such as grief, rage and hate.

Are you honestly with yourself saying that you'd not react the same way? It's quite possible that i'd react the same way in same situation, but i'd definetly try to make my revenge personally and not through random new pupil who i'd train to kill former pupil)

Again, that excuse only stretches so far.

Yes. I can honestly say that.

As a man who had some experience with both overrationalization and bursts of rage i can tell you that you're deluding yourself.
Rationalization only streches so far and it takes much less then situation when "your own pupil killed your own father" to drop it.

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#32 Edited by Zetsumoto (16076 posts) - - Show Bio

@rubear:

Is Nyssa an unemotional "vulcan" for not wanting to kill Oliver as well?

No I am not "deluding myself".

1) You don't know my history

2) Experiencing loss is extremely common. People die, that's a fact of life. This particular scenario may be a fantastic situation, but the leaps in logic necessary for her to feel like Oliver deserves to die for killing someone to save an entire city can be applied to any situation involving the death of a loved one. The fact of the matter is, if everyone went around applying those same leaps in logic, the world would not function. There'd be tons of revenge killings over complete accidents.

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#33 Edited by Rubear (4242 posts) - - Show Bio

@zetsumoto said:
@rubear said:
@zetsumoto said:

@rubear:

It's some really basic logic.

Are you honestly saying that you'd react the same way she would in the same situation?

Logic doesn't fit well with emotions, especially such as grief, rage and hate.

Are you honestly with yourself saying that you'd not react the same way? It's quite possible that i'd react the same way in same situation, but i'd definetly try to make my revenge personally and not through random new pupil who i'd train to kill former pupil)

PS: Is Nessa an unemotional "vulcan" for not reacting the way her sister did?

Nyssa had some reasons to not react the way her sister did. Like this.

Nyssa mentioned that her whole life she had been afraid of him but she was not scared of him anymore. Ra's ordered Oliver to kill her but stopped him at the last second. He congratulated Oliver for overcoming her and said that her death would serve no purpose. Learning he wanted her to marry Oliver, Nyssa mentioned she would rather die. However Ra's said she had no choice in the matter. He told her that she will marry Oliver and she would become Bride of the Demon.

Later she was brought before her father and Oliver for dinner, Ra's decided that he wanted the title Ra's to be in the family line and so he wanted a grandchild so he told Nyssa to get pregnant with Oliver's child, a decision that she was visibly displeased by. Later her father met her in her room and told her to be respectful to him but instead she scoffed at him. Her father had brought in a necklace that belonged to her mother and told her about how he met her, when she refused to marry Oliver, he held her face in a threatening matter and forced her to marry Oliver.

Ra's was about to kill his own daughter when Oliver revealed his deception, he gave his sword to Nyssa and she killed the majority of the men on the plane.

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#34 Edited by Zetsumoto (16076 posts) - - Show Bio

@rubear: lol what happened to "logic doesn't fit well with emotions"? It's pretty clear that Talia had issues with her father as well.

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#35 Edited by Rubear (4242 posts) - - Show Bio

@zetsumoto said:

@rubear: lol what happened to "logic doesn't fit well with emotions"?

It's pretty clear that Talia had issues with her father as well.

Nothing at all, lol. My routine modus operandi is calm and logical, however in case of unusual situation it changes on more emotional and in case of extremally bad or dangerous situation emotions can cause burst of rage.
Issues that big and right before his death? I don't think so.

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#36 Posted by johanshieh (161 posts) - - Show Bio

Maybe because there's no Damian and Batman to distract her, and she got bored, so REVENGE.

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#37 Edited by Gotoucanario (860 posts) - - Show Bio

@rbt said:
@zetsumoto said:
@rbt said:

This makes absolutely no sense. Why wouldn't Talia be upset about Oliver killing her father?

Because she knew her father did bad things, and she kills bad people all the time. Plenty of her victims likely had children or other close family members. She'd have to be stupidly short-sighted to not see the sheer hypocrisy of the situation.

You're basically describing every comic book character who kills here. Take MCU Punisher for example. His main motive was that his family was murdered. So, he takes a gun and starts killing people who most likely has families. Does that sound hypocritical to you?

But -Ras wanted Oliver to kill him and found him to be a worthy succesor, -Ras pretty much left him no choice but to fight, -he died in a fair fight, -League Assassins are pretty willing freely kill and throw away their lives it's their "job", -Ras wasn't exactly the warmest father and barely treated them as one would treat family, it's comes of as petty revenge for Talia to go after Ollie specially in the way she did by training Prometheus to do it for herself and make him mindf* Ollue while taking innocent lives instead of going herself to face him.

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#38 Posted by Mrnoital (5628 posts) - - Show Bio

Nolan and CW motives were similar, but a bit different

Nolan had Talia's motive as finishing her fathers goal in destroying Gotham, satisfied with beating Batman up and throwing him in jail and out of the way

CW had her wanting him tortured mentally for months, destroying every aspect of his life, making it much more personal

and Nyssa and Talia having different feeling on this makes sense given Nyssa was there and had made peace with his death, Talia was away and wasn't able to finish her business with him

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#39 Posted by foxerdes (3550 posts) - - Show Bio

Hypocrisy? You can call it that.

Stupid? I don't think so.

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#40 Edited by Black_Arrow (8702 posts) - - Show Bio

@mrnoital said:

Nolan and CW motives were similar, but a bit different

Nolan had Talia's motive as finishing her fathers goal in destroying Gotham, satisfied with beating Batman up and throwing him in jail and out of the way

CW had her wanting him tortured mentally for months, destroying every aspect of his life, making it much more personal

and Nyssa and Talia having different feeling on this makes sense given Nyssa was there and had made peace with his death, Talia was away and wasn't able to finish her business with him

But that's also what Talia wanted in TDKR. She and Bane threw Bruce in that prison, to torture him, Bane even said "your punishment must be more severe". They knew that the greatest punishment to Batman is to destroy his city while he is helpless to do anything about it and at the same time knowing that he could have save them if he climbed the pit. They stole his company, his heart (Bruce really cared for Miranda Tate), his fusion reactor and his armory to destroy the city. Sure Talia wanted to finish his father's work but she also wanted Batman to suffer, after she stabbed, she ordered Bane to keep Batman alive so that he can experience the depth of his failure. So it's quite clear that Talia wanted to torture Bruce.

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#41 Posted by Mrnoital (5628 posts) - - Show Bio

@black_arrow: but they just assumed Bruce would show up, he had a messed up leg and hasn't Batmaned for years, they didn't go after him, they just started the plan, it was almost like Batman was an afterthought

and really? Miranda Tate was his heart? they just met and spent maybe a total of a day or 2 together

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#42 Posted by Black_Arrow (8702 posts) - - Show Bio

@mrnoital said:

@black_arrow: but they just assumed Bruce would show up, he had a messed up leg and hasn't Batmaned for years, they didn't go after him, they just started the plan, it was almost like Batman was an afterthought

and really? Miranda Tate was his heart? they just met and spent maybe a total of a day or 2 together

He really cared for Miranda, not only he trusted her so much that he gave her a nuclear bomb but he also considered the possibility of leaving Gotham with her and that was after years of grief over Racheal, so yeah I would say that he had strong feelings for her, probably even loved her.

They stole Bruce's fingerprints and they were planning to steal his company and his resources. He was bound to eventually show up, he had nothing else to do. Also Talia said " I honor my father by finishing his work. Vengance against the man who killed him is simply a reward for my patience", It's clear that destroying Gotham was her duty but one of her personal goals was to make Bruce suffer. That's why they decided to take him to the pit at the other side of world, they could have simply killed them.

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#43 Posted by TinyFord (467 posts) - - Show Bio

Horrible

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#44 Edited by Stahlflamme (4230 posts) - - Show Bio

@zetsumoto: You know you are discussing with someone who says taking over a house with guns for political reasons isn't terrorism as long as you don't blow it up, too?

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#45 Edited by Mrnoital (5628 posts) - - Show Bio

@black_arrow: if I recall, he just tossed her the detonator casually, he would've done that to anyone he vaguely trusted to keep it away from Bane

in the Dark Knight he said said he was willing to be done and leave with Rachel, and at the end of Rises we see that he left with Selena, considering leaving with a rebound girl(he was finally getting over Rachel, and if she's the first girl since that makes her the rebound) means very little when he already had the thought, and went through with it with someone else, it seems like the thought never left his mind

" I honor my father by finishing his work. Vengance against the man who killed him is simply a reward for my patience"

thank you for finding the line that proves that revenge on Bruce was only a side benefit, not the main goal, unlike CW where her only goal is to destroy Ollies life