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Posted by solar_nerd (2625 posts) - - Show Bio
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Remember Black Panther?

Of course you do. Chances are, you saw it, just like millions of people around the world. And by all means, it was a very good movie, especially in terms of superhero movies. However, when it came out, the media made it look like we had another "Citizen Kane" on our hands, Rotten Tomatoes literally put it at the top of their "Top 100 movies" and it's now a contender for Best Picture at The Oscars. Sorry guys, but it wasn't a masterpiece. It was just a very good superhero flick.

Now, when I say Black Panther was sort of overrated, that doesn't mean I have a problem with diversity. At all. I like diversity, and it's definitely a good thing, especially in movies. However, I feel like people are putting too much stock in it. While diversity is kind of a cherry-on-top, what ultimately matters is whether or not the movies tell a good story.

And now Captain Marvel, the first female-led Marvel movie, is set to come out this March. I think it's gonna be pretty good, or at least average by Marvel standards. However, Kevin Feige, the head-honcho of Marvel, says that diversity will be a big part of the MCU, and that the majority of MCU characters could eventually be minorities. In fact, he says diversity will be the absolute number-one priority. While, as I said, diversity is good, making it the number-one priority is a majorly faulty decision. As I said, the number-one priority should be stories, and if anything is placed above that on the list of priorities, then it's a big gamble that could be the downfall of the MCU.

What do you think? Comment!

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#1 Edited by FirestormFate1919 (6211 posts) - - Show Bio

I agree with pretty much everything you said. Black Panther was a very good movie that was vastly overrated due to it's cultural impact. I think Captain Marvel will be overrated as well, but to a lesser extent than Black Panther, due to a combination of lower overall quality and Wonder Woman coming before it. I don't see the emphasis on diversity stopping any time soon, because it's clearly very marketable and profitable. The story should always come first, but I also don't think there's cause for concern until prioritization of diversity actually clashes with the story. If the two can coexist, that's ideal, and they've been able to so far. Marvel Comics has had stretches where the story definitely suffered for the sake of diversity, but just because it happened in the comics doesn't mean it will in the movies. I could be wrong, but I think a lot of the things people are panicking about are just being overplayed to a diversity seeking media in press releases and whatnot. I think Captain Marvel might be the new lead of the MCU following Endgame, but I don't think that means the rest of the universe will necessarily take a hit.

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#2 Posted by mimisalome (5342 posts) - - Show Bio

Depends on how aggressive they shovel their hollywood virtue signalling down the throats of their customers who don give a flying cat about their leftist politics.

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#3 Posted by rem (2518 posts) - - Show Bio

Maybe but I doubt it.

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#4 Posted by Kevd4wg (12512 posts) - - Show Bio

It could, all depends on the writing. Claremont's X-men is one of the best comic runs of all time and almost entirely based off "identity politics", just from the 70s. It's not the idea that's bad, only the writing.

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#5 Posted by TheSpartanB345T (3942 posts) - - Show Bio

For once, I agree with you.

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#6 Posted by deactivated-5c32bf8a2c6ae (193 posts) - - Show Bio

I doubt it.

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#7 Edited by Bandedessinee (454 posts) - - Show Bio

Black Panther being called overrated is overrated. It was a pretty good origin MCU movie. IMO it's one of the best MCU origin movies. I would put it above Captain America First Avenger , Antman 1 and it was better than the sequel and trequel Iron Man 2 and 3. It might not necessarily be best picture but getting a high Oscar award would help elevate super hero movies. Superhero movies barely ever win any major awards for the Oscars.

I doubt Captain Marvel is going to be any kind of huge minority superhero movie at the box office like Black Panther and Wonder Woman. A movie being diverse and hyped up because of it doesn't mean it's going to make bank. The female Ghostbusters movie and A Wrinkle in Time were box office bombs despite being praised by critics for being diverse. Sony seems to have no plans of making sequels to the female Ghostbusters movie since it bombed so hard. Captain Marvel isn't going to change the MCU into minority leads only. Feige is saying that for publicity to me but Marvel would likely have more minority lead movies like a Ms Marvel (Kamala Khan) movie, Falcon solo movie, Black Widow solo movie but I doubt the core Avengers would be phased out. Hulk, Cap, Thor and Iron Man have great marketability and recognition even without the current actors.

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#8 Posted by solar_nerd (2625 posts) - - Show Bio

@kevd4wg said:

It could, all depends on the writing. Claremont's X-men is one of the best comic runs of all time and almost entirely based off "identity politics", just from the 70s. It's not the idea that's bad, only the writing.

That's exactly what I said.

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#9 Edited by JohnCena69swag (3786 posts) - - Show Bio

As of right now i have no issue with the mcu for identity politics. Black panther was just a movie with a black protagonist but it wasnt preaching anything like black lives matter nonsense. It was overrated because of the identity politics with the critics, but that wasnt marvels fault. Captain marvel looks like it is going to be more of the same but who knows, maybe it will spew some nonsense. I hope not but for now i don't think there's a problem.

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#10 Posted by Owie (7172 posts) - - Show Bio

Increasing diversity in Marvel has been a very good thing. The Black Panther movie was solid. Not the very best in the MCU, but by no means bad. And most importantly for the argument presented in the OP, its flaws have zero to do with its use of black characters. In other words, it does have faults, but those faults are unrelated to its diversity. In other other words, storytelling is still key, they're just using different characters to tell the stories.

Second, if the majority of MCU characters might be minorities, that only makes sense if we're including women as "minorities" (and your argument here does include women as part of diversity) since they make up more than half the population.

I'm a straight white guy, but I know tons of people personally who have more marginalized identities than me who have felt that Marvel's inclusion of women, gay characters, and people of color has been much more than a "cherry on top," it has been a way to see themselves reflected in the stories they love in a way that was not possible before.

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#11 Posted by Supermanthor (16215 posts) - - Show Bio

nope

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#14 Posted by Stahlflamme (5693 posts) - - Show Bio

Ugh, are we chasing ghosts again? If you snowflakes were not complaining loudly years ago when Pepper Potts defeated the main villain of Iron Man 3 in direct combat for no narrative or logical reason whatsoever thanks to no skill of her own, ylu have forever lost your right to complain about the depcition of anyone doing anything in the MCU or to blame it on these pesky whatever politics that were not around in the MCU before, because onviously you forgot your ability to judge at the last Klan meeting.

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#15 Posted by solar_nerd (2625 posts) - - Show Bio

@epicyon: Dude, that's like, actually racist. And I avoid playing the "that's racist" card when I can. I didn't approve of those casting choices either, but that doesn't mean I "kinda wanna join the Klan".

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#16 Posted by SuperHulk24 (534 posts) - - Show Bio

Feige hopefully won't make the mistakes that KK did with Star Wars.

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#17 Posted by Havenless (2907 posts) - - Show Bio

Nope. Carol was a woman already, T’Chala was black. Marvel isn’t forcing anything, they’re coming out in the appropriate order to their importance in the comics. Except She-Hulk, but they can’t do much about that.

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#18 Posted by Epicyon (866 posts) - - Show Bio
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#19 Posted by comic_book_fan (11212 posts) - - Show Bio

elektra cough cough i know it was fox and not that great but was a marvel character and a female lead and it came out over a decade ago

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#20 Edited by samhmd1 (712 posts) - - Show Bio

@epicyon said:

It already has. The cast of Spiderman Homecoming made me wanna join the klan. Indian Fla-trash, Whateverthefuck annoying fat Ned is, random queer girl who hangs out with Vulture's daughter, and much more. Literally everyone in Peter's nerd club, they all hurt my soul. But whatever people are pathetic, and the worst of them being the super oppressed gay and fat people that cry the most about acceptance through representation, i don't wanna see no overweight and gay superheroes, maybe villains that die.

Oh grow up you crybaby. The students in Homecoming represented how Queens actually is pretty well, seeing how it's one of the most racially diverse places in the entire USA. If anything, making them all white to begin with was the real problem.

Flash's actor is Guatemalan, Ned is a combo of Ned Leeds and Ganke from Ultimate which makes him Filipino, Zendaya is mixed race. If you can't handle that, don't go outside and talk to other people.

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#22 Edited by cattlebattle (17630 posts) - - Show Bio

@samhmd1 said:
@epicyon said:

It already has. The cast of Spiderman Homecoming made me wanna join the klan. Indian Fla-trash, WhatevertheBJORK annoying fat Ned is, random queer girl who hangs out with Vulture's daughter, and much more. Literally everyone in Peter's nerd club, they all hurt my soul. But whatever people are pathetic, and the worst of them being the super oppressed gay and fat people that cry the most about acceptance through representation, i don't wanna see no overweight and gay superheroes, maybe villains that die.

Oh grow up you crybaby. The students in Homecoming represented how Queens actually is pretty well, seeing how it's one of the most racially diverse places in the entire USA. If anything, making them all white to begin with was the real problem.

.

Yes, yes. How dare Lee and Ditko not predict that the Hart Cellar Act would be passed in two years and Queens was going to be flooded with non whites within 50 years. How did they not see that coming??

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#23 Posted by MarvelandDCfan24 (7160 posts) - - Show Bio

Spiderman Homecoming was kind of ruined by it

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#24 Posted by StellatedColt (874 posts) - - Show Bio

The thing I don't like about "diversity" is characters are in the story for the sake of their race. That's it. If they want to create diversity correctly, use existing characters or here's a hint. CREATE A NEW CHARACTER. Marvel and others tend to ignore other heroes (i.e. BLADE) and switch up the originals for some unknown reason. This failed attempt at inclusivity isn't helping anyone and could potentially annoy the OG fans.

Captain Marvel is going to be a fine film. I actually like Brie Larson and didn't understand the "smile" complaint. My critique was that it was bland and dull. Focus on the story and don't make her like Rey from Star Wars and we're good. But I fear this might be the end of the MCU honeymoon...

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#25 Posted by Fabricolage (1884 posts) - - Show Bio

I doubt it. Makes sense for it to need a good story, but be different enough to be compelling.

The overrated part that you mention could be like eating the same meal or liking and listening the same music every often until someone comes and brings in new food or different music tracks, or some other analogy. On the downside, some people notice the change and prefer blind nostalgia, while others might like something until it turns out to be not as what they thought it was which either side could be due to it being not constructed well or oversight/hindsight. It happens.

Didn't see Spiderman Homecoming, but I thought they were implementing stuff from Miles Morales' story or something like that.

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#26 Posted by LawCol (710 posts) - - Show Bio

@kevd4wg said:

It could, all depends on the writing. Claremont's X-men is one of the best comic runs of all time and almost entirely based off "identity politics", just from the 70s. It's not the idea that's bad, only the writing.

Pretty much sums up my thoughts. As long as they don't go female Thor and making every young non-white hero the "world's smartest", then MCU can really build inclusiveness into its world.

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#27 Posted by adamTRMM (8989 posts) - - Show Bio

Can't wait to see more incel meltdowns.

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#28 Posted by Kevd4wg (12512 posts) - - Show Bio

@lawcol said:
@kevd4wg said:

It could, all depends on the writing. Claremont's X-men is one of the best comic runs of all time and almost entirely based off "identity politics", just from the 70s. It's not the idea that's bad, only the writing.

Pretty much sums up my thoughts. As long as they don't go female Thor and making every young non-white hero the "world's smartest", then MCU can really build inclusiveness into its world.

Female Thor isn't even a bad idea imo and really up until Thor found out her identity, the comic wasn't awful. However once Thor found out her identity, it went from a story about her to a story about trashing Thor.

And to those saying that they should make new characters and not replace old ones, guess what Claremont's X-men did. It took the original 5, white, America, Christian X-men and replaced them with people of all different races, cultures, religions, appearances, etc, and made the best X-men book of all time, arguably one of the best comic runs of all time that had a huge impact on not only the X-men, making them the most popular comic, but also the entire industry. It all just depends on the writing.

For another example take Laura. A properly built Legacy character for which the obvious next step when Wolverine died was for her to become Wolverine, but no one loses their shit over her because she was wrote well. The problem isn't "muh diversity being forced in my face" or "keep muh politics out of muh comics" because many of the best comics have been based around politics and especially race politics(God Loves Man Kills anyone?, that comic was sure as hell shoving a pro-gay message in your face, but no one cared because the writing was excellent. Hell, the clever writing to show the pro-gay side is what made the comic brilliant). Some of universally best received comics and comic runs of all time involved politics and using characters in comics to send a political message, the problem isn't with diversity or politics in comics, both of those things have led to some of the best comics ever, the problem is bad writing. So when people complain about Jane Thor or Ironheart diversity, the problem is Aaron and Bendis have lost their touch on writing, not that them being black/a women ruins the comic somehow.

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#29 Edited by adamTRMM (8989 posts) - - Show Bio

I've never seen anything distinctly pro-gay in God Loves, Man Kills. Universal anti-bigotry message? Of course, but if anything it was much more race/appearance-oriented. Just thinking about the most memorable moments, in the beginning we see two black kids gunned down by what is a clearly white supremacist parallel. Then close to culmination we see how another white supremacist parallel points out how a person whose appearance may not be interpreted as visually pleasing or should I say, normal, can't be considered a human when we already learned how behind that appearance hides a gentle, kind soul, all while the 'normal' guy has a rotten one. Another point, when the gunner learns of her mutant heritage and gets neglected by the supermacists, it's parallel to lots of real life stories about supremacists learning their Jewish roots, for example.

Yeah I think the prime message of GLMK is exactly that, don't judge people by appearance, be kinder and resist bigotry. There's more to humanity than just the visible side.

I agree with one thing tho, good writing is the key. And GLMK was really good. Even though a bit old fashioned for recent readers.

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#30 Posted by Kevd4wg (12512 posts) - - Show Bio

@adamtrmm: Particularly the religious aspect as well with mutant segregation being compared directly to racism, but being seen as more socially acceptable(this was during the 80s ofc) is a pretty clear parallel to the gay rights issues of the time. Furthermore, the entire idea that the priest saw his son as a monster, just for being a mutant even though it was something his son couldn't control comes off a lot more like gay rights then racial divisions. Additionally the idea that anyone could be a mutant and they look the exact same is much more in line with gay rights then racial equality imo.

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#31 Posted by Jordyn_Hill (271 posts) - - Show Bio

@epicyon said:

It already has. The cast of Spiderman Homecoming made me wanna join the klan. Indian Fla-trash, Whatever annoying fat Ned is, random queer girl who hangs out with Vulture's daughter, and much more. Literally everyone in Peter's nerd club, they all hurt my soul. But whatever people are pathetic, and the worst of them being the super oppressed gay and fat people that cry the most about acceptance through representation, i don't wanna see no overweight and gay superheroes, maybe villains that die.

Technically thats Sony, not the MCU but I'm splitting hairs. What about Thot May? That casting swap didnt trigger you? Turning the Shocker black or the Tinkerer from an old dude to a younger fat one? Its been awhile but I dont remember any of the character's sexuality being a focal point. I dont remember Ned's being fat and oppressed because of it as part of the plot or even used as a gag. At no time was I thinking, 'damn this is a good movie if only Peter's friend wasnt fat and Asian. Where the white skinny friend at?' Neither are superheroes so your "I dont wanna see fat and gay superheroes" stance is safe isnt it? How about Peter I'm from Queens NY being played by a Brit? If Ned cant be Asian how come the main character can be British? I mean I know...I jus wanna read you say it :)

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#32 Posted by Blackdog2009 (3706 posts) - - Show Bio

Black Panther is overrated af. I'm not hating either but the movie was average imo. It is not better than the first Iron Man or Captain America, don't kill me.

As for Captain Marvel it is disturbing. She's wearing a suit that intentionally hides her curves, her figure. She wears no make up and her sex appeal as a beautiful woman that she is (Brie Larson I mean), are being hidden sotospeak.

The movie hints at no love interest whatsoever. Think Wonder Woman with no Steve Trevor. I dare say they're portraying her sort of dikey. But I could be eating my words since I'm just going by what those sad trailers have shown.

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#33 Posted by Kevd4wg (12512 posts) - - Show Bio

Comments on threads like this makes me ashamed to be associated with people on CV sometimes

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#34 Posted by FullMetalEmprah (3987 posts) - - Show Bio

While I do agree to an extent I'm still not going to worry about it too much. I am worried a bit about how quickly Captain Marvel is going to be at the forefront of the MCU, but I'm not going to go crazy over it until I see the movie and just how she is implemented. Obviously someone as powerful as her is going to be important after all, as long as they don't have her become "I'm the Mary Sue that does everything better than everyone else!" or do something really stupid like kill off Thor to replace him with her then I'm fine.

So yeah I support diversity, so long as it doesn't get in the way of the story or anything like that.

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#35 Posted by Batvibe12 (5570 posts) - - Show Bio

No.

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#36 Posted by adamTRMM (8989 posts) - - Show Bio

@kevd4wg:

Yes, yes. The religious aspect is of course very prominent too as a means to weaponize belief system against those deamed unholy. Just shows how mutilayered and subtle the writing is since there are so many aspects of human hatred are being explored.

Well yeah, but he kills his son based off his appearance. The Mutant metaphor here fails to provide an unambiguous allegory, the metaphor is still there and it's up to interpretation of the reader to decide what to see in there.

It also very much in line with Jewish expirience. I guess all points are valid, but at this point I think mutant metaphor has run its course and has to evolve past that since representation is happening directly at this point. Besides comparing mutants to minorities you basically admit they are dangerous since mutants are. But that's a whole other discussion.

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#37 Posted by boschePG (6313 posts) - - Show Bio

As of now, MCU's diversity has been happening naturally. Danvers was due to come sometimes. As was Black Panther when one follows the comics. When one actually thinks that Black Panther was actually created by two white Jewish guys than no one can really scream forced diversity. Now if it becomes like Supergirl on CW, than I will speak out against it

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#38 Edited by Light1150 (597 posts) - - Show Bio

No, not really. Identity politics has been a part of cinema/comics/T.V since PoC/other white ethnicities (Irish, Jewish, Italian) started being casted in actual, non-racist roles and racist roles started to die out (black-face). It is a pretty good source for story telling. Saying their future movies will have more diversity is just a face fact with no bearing on the quality of the movie. If them saying there will be more diversity in the mcu pisses people off more than dubious creative decisions, then I think that person has a deep problem.

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#39 Posted by solar_nerd (2625 posts) - - Show Bio

@boschepg said:

As of now, MCU's diversity has been happening naturally. Danvers was due to come sometimes. As was Black Panther when one follows the comics. When one actually thinks that Black Panther was actually created by two white Jewish guys than no one can really scream forced diversity. Now if it becomes like Supergirl on CW, than I will speak out against it

I agree.

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#40 Edited by Kevd4wg (12512 posts) - - Show Bio

@adamtrmm:

It also very much in line with Jewish expirience. I guess all points are valid, but at this point I think mutant metaphor has run its course and has to evolve past that since representation is happening directly at this point. Besides comparing mutants to minorities you basically admit they are dangerous since mutants are. But that's a whole other discussion.

Well, iirc Mutants were originally created by Kirby as an allegory to what he experienced as a Jewish person, but I think the timing of the event in the early 80's makes it most likely to be about gay rights. I think the whole Mutants are dangerous so are minorities point is kinda stupid. It's a superhero comic, they have powers, but obviously Jack Kirby was not trying to tell the world that him and fellow Jewish people were dangerous and Claremont obviously didn't intend for that as well.

In general, I think Mutants are representative of all persecuted races, but that particular story came off most as gay rights to me

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#41 Edited by Renchamp (7737 posts) - - Show Bio

@epicyon: Wow, way to show your true colors (the mod said with his tongue in his cheek). Language warning for starters. Further warning for the borderline hate speech/internet edginess. Enjoy that karma ban.

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#42 Edited by ourmanuel (10502 posts) - - Show Bio

Eh, it depends.

i agree with you about BP tho. It was a great movie but damn, it was overrated af and the fact that it won best drama of the year award just irked me seeing as it wasn’t even a drama movie. Though I was initially skeptical about the whole diversity thing, the movie still turned out alright.

Though I really hope it doesn’t turn out the same way with captain marvel. The way her character is being introduced into the universe might make her a Mary Sue. And unfortunately, I already feel like the movie itself wouldn’t be able to live up to expectations. At least Black Panther was still good despite how overrated it was.

but either way, as long as diversity doesn’t get in the way of it being a good movie, then I’m ok.

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#43 Edited by adamTRMM (8989 posts) - - Show Bio

@kevd4wg:

How is it stupid? If one considers mutants to be an allegory there should be acknowledging of all aspects of that allegorical expirience, otherwise it's forced and it's reaching. Showing mutants as just underdogs completely neglects they are basically gods among men and the that people will envy them as much as they fear them. And is a completely different picture. Also, Kirby and Lee didn't really explore the metaphor beyond superficial supremacist aspect. They created mutants first and foremost to not bother with creating complex origin stories of gaining superpowers. It wasn't until Claremont that the metaphor became subtler and more defined, partially due to his own Jewish heritage I would guess. Point is, the metaphor is those interpretations has been milked and overused as nauseam and simply holds Xmen back, especially when minorities themselves have representation now it is more than redundant. Mutant metaphot needs to explore other aspect of human expirience to stay relevant, otherwise Xmen have reached their dead end.

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#44 Posted by SupremeGeneration (11414 posts) - - Show Bio

Could Identity Politics ruin the MCU?

Yes. Current Marvel is kinda great example.

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#45 Posted by Kevd4wg (12512 posts) - - Show Bio

@adamtrmm: And none of that has to do with the point I was making at all

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#46 Posted by samhmd1 (712 posts) - - Show Bio

@samhmd1 said:
@epicyon said:

It already has. The cast of Spiderman Homecoming made me wanna join the klan. Indian Fla-trash, WhatevertheBJORK annoying fat Ned is, random queer girl who hangs out with Vulture's daughter, and much more. Literally everyone in Peter's nerd club, they all hurt my soul. But whatever people are pathetic, and the worst of them being the super oppressed gay and fat people that cry the most about acceptance through representation, i don't wanna see no overweight and gay superheroes, maybe villains that die.

Oh grow up you crybaby. The students in Homecoming represented how Queens actually is pretty well, seeing how it's one of the most racially diverse places in the entire USA. If anything, making them all white to begin with was the real problem.

.

Yes, yes. How dare Lee and Ditko not predict that the Hart Cellar Act would be passed in two years and Queens was going to be flooded with non whites within 50 years. How did they not see that coming??

There were plenty of nonwhites in Queens before then, though.

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#47 Edited by cattlebattle (17630 posts) - - Show Bio

@samhmd1 said:

There were plenty of nonwhites in Queens before then, though.

Not really. Before 1965 the US had quite strict immigration policies against non whites, Natives had their own reserve lands and blacks, who only comprised 10% of the population, mainly lived in the South. Who were these mystical non whites living in Queens then??

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#48 Posted by samhmd1 (712 posts) - - Show Bio

@samhmd1 said:

There were plenty of nonwhites in Queens before then, though.

Not really. Before 1965 the US had quite strict immigration policies against non whites, Natives had their own reserve lands and blacks who only comprised 10% of the population mainly lived in the South. Who were these mystical non whites living in Queens then??

There were still Black people in Queens, along with Latinos and (an extremely small) Asian demographic. Yes, it was still mostly white but Queens became the most multi-ethnical part of NYC for a reason. Hell, no one complained it was unrealistic for Robby Robertson to be basically the 2nd in command at the Daily Bugle back in the 1960s.

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#49 Posted by dngn4774 (5571 posts) - - Show Bio

@kevd4wg said:

Comments on threads like this makes me ashamed to be associated with people on CV sometimes

@adamtrmm said:

Can't wait to see more incel meltdowns.

Every time a cbm makes a person feel included, 4 new bot accounts appear on message boards to tell them that movie sucks.

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#50 Posted by kgb725 (18385 posts) - - Show Bio

Serious question : Do people not understand how important social justice and inclusiveness has been to marvel since its creation ?