Cory Herndon clarifies stance on Malak vs. Kun.

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#1 Posted by SithRevenant (1165 posts) - - Show Bio
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#3 Posted by TheVivas (19704 posts) - - Show Bio

I never wanted to put Malak over Kun in the first place. Who is this guy though?

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#4 Posted by SithRevenant (1165 posts) - - Show Bio

@thevivas: He wrote the web supplement that people claimed meant Malak was >> Nadd & Kun.

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#5 Posted by KillBilly (3080 posts) - - Show Bio

Good. Malak's being put back in his proper place.

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#6 Posted by Slayedigneel (1921 posts) - - Show Bio

Hope the Kun lowballing can stop.

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#7 Posted by GeorgeWBush (12637 posts) - - Show Bio

Makes total sense

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#8 Posted by i_like_swords (26354 posts) - - Show Bio

"I am not the current authority on this"

"I think my thoughts at the time were that Malak [...] therefore was the most powerful."

"And I was definitely thinking that the Star Forge's power [...] and perhaps having a dark side connection (it's been 15 year, sorry) made him clearly one of the most powerful Sith in history."

I don't understand why people on this site assume a thread that contains screenshots is necessarily correct, just because it's a thread with screenshots. If you actually read the screenshots you will see that Cory himself confesses he is no longer an authority on the matter, and that if he was, he would say that Malak is very much the most powerful Sith of his time with the SF, and one of the most powerful in all of history. Meaning, Cory's comments, as amenable as they are to the position that SF Malak > Kun, can be dismissed, and ultimately, authority lies with the licensed material, wherein it's clearly stated that with the Star Forge, Malak's power with the Force is beyond Kun's.

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#9 Posted by In-sidiousvader (2536 posts) - - Show Bio

@i_like_swords:

Hey I don't want to annoy you but I had a CaV where I debate for Boba against GG if your interested Voting is still going on!

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#11 Posted by SithRevenant (1165 posts) - - Show Bio

@i_like_swords: It's not made even remotely clear that that's what is being stated. And if Ant can use Cory to clarify the rather ambiguous statements made in that web supplement, then I sure as hell can. Lastly, that isn't what he says, he says that Malak would've been the most powerful because he in a position to use the Forge and Revan to conquer the Republic. The powers in reference are domination of the galaxy.

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#12 Edited by i_like_swords (26354 posts) - - Show Bio

@sithrevenant: It's perfectly clear, which is why the entire forum relented to the quote and you had to tweet an author with loaded questions hoping he would give you the answer you need to rebuke the quote. Cory isn't a source for anything by his own admission, for you or Ant, but the supplement saying Malak > Kun is.

Cory didn't say that the Kun quote is wrong, he just offered support to the idea that the Star Forge dramatically increased Malak's powers both militarily and in the dark side. You're basically suggesting that a crystal clear quote is now debunk because 15 years later you had a twitter conversation with an author who no longer holds any authority, where he didn't contradict the quote but offered vague support for it.

Kun is dead, he's about Ventress level now.

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#13 Edited by SithRevenant (1165 posts) - - Show Bio

@i_like_swords: It's not crystal clear, not even remotely. Why do you think Ant had to ask him in the first place? Your complaints are irrelevant. Malak isn't > Kun, and never was. Your idea that Kun is Ventress tier is laughable and shows how fickle your stances are. Good riddance.

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#14 Posted by i_like_swords (26354 posts) - - Show Bio

@sithrevenant: No need to be angry.

"Did it [the mask] provide him with powers far greater than even Exar Kun or Freedon Nadd, or was cybernetic enhancement too simple an explanation?"

The author is asking, was it the mask that made Malak far greater than Kun or Nadd, or is that explanation too simple? That Malak is far greater is not the subject of debate. And it has to be referring to Force power, because a mask doesn't provide any kind of military or political power.

It's not really a laughable idea, as far as ideas about SW go these days. It's an idea I'd be happy to defend, but I doubt you're game.

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#15 Posted by dark-sith123 (5033 posts) - - Show Bio

ILS vs AP Round two should be interesting :)

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#16 Posted by SithRevenant (1165 posts) - - Show Bio

@i_like_swords: Nah, it's referring to numerous powers. Plural. You know. Like you claimed was the case in Muur's statement over Krayt. Or have you changed your mind? More importantly, the statement itself actually contradicts the idea that it is referring to Force power, because it's redundant.

An imposing figure with ghostly pale features, prominent Sith tattoos, a gleaming red lightsaber, and devastating Dark Side power, Malak struck terror into the hearts of his former allies. He also wore a vocal mask that may have concealed a form of cybernetic life-support. Did it provide him with powers far greater than even Exar Kun or Freedon Nadd, or was cybernetic enhancement too simple an explanation?

The mask part is irrelevant, because we know it's the Star Forge. The Star Forge afforded him an endless supply of ships, droids, and virtual immortality as the boon to his actual power. But Herndon also includes Revan, adding to the idea that Malak himself is kind of irrelevant. It's the use of this station, which allows pretty much anyone gauranteed conquest over the Republic, that allows him to be one of the most powerful Sith. Because clearly conquest was a big deal to Herndon.

It's been debunked. Get over it.

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#17 Edited by i_like_swords (26354 posts) - - Show Bio

@sithrevenant: In other Legends material "powers" can refer to "powers of the Force" or "Force powers", which ultimately amounts to "Malak is more powerful than Kun." The Star Forge doesn't afford Malak any new powers, so this makes no sense, and as we established, it also can only be referring to personal power and not military power. The case was different with Muur, which you already know.

The mask part is irrelevant, because we know it's the Star Forge. The Star Forge afforded him an endless supply of ships, droids, and virtual immortality as the boon to his actual power.

This isn't a coherent response to the facts:

1. It's referring to personal power.

2. The Star Forge doesn't give Malak new powers.

3. Embedded in the statement is the tacit acknowledgement that Malak's powers are far greater than Kun's.

But Herndon also includes Revan, adding to the idea that Malak himself is kind of irrelevant. It's the use of this station, which allows pretty much anyone gauranteed conquest over the Republic, that allows him to be one of the most powerful Sith. Because clearly conquest was a big deal to Herndon.

This also isn't a coherent response to the facts that:

1. Herndon admits he has no authority and his memory of why he wrote the quote the way he did 15 years ago is hazy at best.

2. Herndon did not contradict that Malak is more personally powerful than Kun with the Star Forge's power.

3. Herndon is quoted as saying that SF has a "dark side connection," meaning the power it afforded Malak is not solely based on military power, which we know because the original quote is, blatantly, not discussing military power, because masks don't provide that.

Nothing Herndon tweeted does or can contradict licensed material, because he has no authority to do so, and he chose not to.

It's been debunked. Get over it.

Ventress vs Kun is still on the table. I'd grab that offer with both hands before we find a deeper grave for your boy.

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#18 Edited by SithRevenant (1165 posts) - - Show Bio

@i_like_swords: Thanks for debunking your own argument against Muur.

The Star Forge absolutely afforded Malak new powers(not gonna rehash an argument I've already made):

An imposing figure with ghostly pale features, prominent Sith tattoos, a gleaming red lightsaber, and devastating Dark Side power, Malak struck terror into the hearts of his former allies. He also wore a vocal mask that may have concealed a form of cybernetic life-support. Did it provide him with powers far greater than even Exar Kun or Freedon Nadd, or was cybernetic enhancement too simple an explanation?

Credit: Darth Malak: An Expanded Universe Character From Star Wars: KOTOR

Taking the quote as many have done, renders the entire section about a vocal mask redundant. It's already stated he had devastating dark side power. It can't then refer to his power given 'He also' implies the two are separate in the list of things making him an imposing figure. Thankfully, it doesn't say 'power', it says 'powers'. Notice however, that the statement itself is bringing up a question. It suggests he has hidden cybernetic life-support. Which ponders whether this was the source of his powers or if that explanation wasn't good enough.

Almost the exact same question is made again in the same article:

Malak ignores the [the first effects] of any kind of damage. Whether this is due to hidden armor linked to his voice mask or the physical result of Sith alchemy is anyone's guess.

Credit: Darth Malak: An Expanded Universe Character From Star Wars: KOTOR

It again refers to his mask as the possible source. Notice the similarities between the first quote's reference to a life-support system and this quote's reference to his ability to endure damage.

The same article then references the source in question at the very end:

Using a mysterious power source as yet undiscovered (complete Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic to learn more), Darth Malak possesses extraordinary dark side Force powers out of proportion, in game terms, with his class and level.

Credit: Darth Malak: An Expanded Universe Character From Star Wars: KOTOR

Once again, it refers to a 'mysterious power source' which gives him 'extraordinary dark side Force powers'. Again, plural not singular.

Obviously, in all three quotes the 'source' is the Star Forge. What is the greatest power of the Star Forge according to Malak himself?

"The Star Forge is more than just a space station. In some ways, it is like a living creature. It hungers. And it can feed on the dark side that is within all of us! Look around you, Revan. See the bodies? You should recognize them from the Academy. These are Jedi who fell when I attacked Dantooine. For all intents and purposes dead, except for one difference: I have not let them become one with the Force. Instead I have brought them here. The Star Forge corrupts what remains of their power and transfers the dark taint to me! You cannot beat me, Revan. Not here on the Star Forge. Not when I can draw upon the power of all these Jedi! And once you are beaten I will do the same to you. You will be trapped in a terrible existence between life and death, your power feeding me as I conquer the galaxy!"

Credit: Darth Malak, KOTOR

This was further stated in the Databanks themselves as the great power of the Star Forge:

The Sith Lord had grotesquely adapted the Rakatan device to draw energy directly from chained Jedi captives. He replenished his life force from the captives by draining theirs.

Credit: Star Wars Databanks

No matter which way you want to argue it, there is no reference to actual personal power here.

Oh and Kun vs Ventress is a mismatch, entertaining your insanity is hardly warranting of my time.

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#19 Edited by fairtrade (780 posts) - - Show Bio

inb4 raging Sheevites turn this into a 10 v 1 and claim victory based on popular opinion.

Star Forge Ventress >>>>>>>>> Sidious

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#20 Edited by i_like_swords (26354 posts) - - Show Bio

@sithrevenant: So now your argument is not that it's referring to any kind of military power, but that "powers" refers exclusively to the power of draining Jedi to death? Do tell me, if this is the case, then why is "powers" i.e plural, referring to one specific power, Force drain? That doesn't compute. Obviously "powers" can simply refer to power, force power, absolute/ultimate power, etc, as it does in other sources under different authors. It doesn't have to literally refer to multiple unique powers.

More to the point, it's not saying Malak has new powers that Kun or Nadd don't have, it's saying that he has powers far greater than theirs, presumably powers all of them share. Meaning, in whatever sense of "powers" he meant, it's a sense in which Kun, Nadd and Malak all have proficiency in, so the comparison is perfectly valid.

Taking the quote as many have done, renders the entire section about a vocal mask redundant. It's already stated he had devastating dark side power. It can't then refer to his power given 'He also' implies the two are separate in the list of things making him an imposing figure.

You're trying to force a contradiction that isn't there. An author can say Malak has devastating dark power and then pose the question of what makes him more powerful than Kun. They're not mutually exclusive at all.

Oh and Kun vs Ventress is a mismatch, entertaining your insanity is hardly warranting of my time.

You're right, I'm not sure why I'd humour Kun having a shot at winning there.

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#21 Posted by Greysentinel365 (6536 posts) - - Show Bio
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#22 Posted by In-sidiousvader (2536 posts) - - Show Bio
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#23 Edited by LordOfTheLight (2679 posts) - - Show Bio

Leland Chee and Cory Herndon both interpreted the supplement as evidence of Malak's superiority over Kun in a direct fight.

It is obvious that with your pestering the authors repeatedly to get the statement you want, they eventually gave it to you. It was exactly the same with the Plagueis quote where instead of asking something like this

"Can statements from novels be used to declare one Sith as more powerful than any other there"

You asked

"How is it possible that Plagueis is the most powerful Sith Lord in history? I mean, we have tons of ultra powerful Sith Lords going around like Exar Kun, Valkorion and others so how is it even remotely accurate or believable that Plagueis of all people is the most powerful Sith Lord in history"

If I was the author I would simply reply the reply that you wanted instead of even trying to enter into a meaningful conversation with you lol.

But it is amusing that this attempt here failed hilariously because Herndon is no longer an authority on the matter so his statements mean nothing.

That puts it down to the source. The source is pretty obvious and what's more Leland Chee's interpretation of it is the same as Cory Herndon's was earlier that Kun would lose to Malak in a fight.

Take into consideration that you probably pestered Herndon to get the statements that you want and it becomes obvious that Malak is far more powerful than Kun here

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#24 Edited by LordOfTheLight (2679 posts) - - Show Bio

@dark-sith123 said:

ILS vs AP Round two should be interesting :)

Not really lol

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#25 Edited by SithRevenant (1165 posts) - - Show Bio

@i_like_swords: Er, no. I'm using your own logic here.

The very opening of the quote refers to his actual 'Dark Side power' as 'devastating'. Singular, not plural. So clearly Herndon is fully aware of what the difference between the two is. Oh and, it isn't just drain, we're just not told exactly what powers he has been afforded by the station. One of them fuels his actual power (the absorption of the spirit) as he himself puts it:

See the bodies? You should recognize them from the Academy. These are Jedi who fell when I attacked Dantooine. For all intents and purposes dead, except for one difference: I have not let them become one with the Force. Instead I have brought them here. The Star Forge corrupts what remains of their power and transfers the dark taint to me! You cannot beat me, Revan. Not here on the Star Forge. Not when I can draw upon the power of all these Jedi!

The other replenishes his life force, meaning he saps the remaining life from the Jedi:

The Sith Lord had grotesquely adapted the Rakatan device to draw energy directly from chained Jedi captives. He replenished his life force from the captives by draining theirs.

Credit: Databanks

The third gives him the ability to endure attacks:

Malak ignores the [the first effects] of any kind of damage. Whether this is due to hidden armor linked to his voice mask or the physical result of Sith alchemy is anyone's guess.

Credit: Web Supplement

There are clearly multiple powers at work here. Which is an equally valid, though I'd argue moreso via Occam's Razor, interpretation of the blog without Herndon's input as your own.

@in-sidiousvader: You know it's the blatant evidence of someone incapable of doing something themselves when they piggyback on those far greater than them.

@fairtrade:Almost halfway to 10. Not quite though.

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#26 Posted by Azronger (4336 posts) - - Show Bio
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#27 Edited by SithRevenant (1165 posts) - - Show Bio

@azronger: Yeah, her hair just doesn't cut it. Kun's is glorious. See the shine on that ponytail? You can't photoshop that shit. I bet he gets it done in Paris.

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#28 Posted by i_like_swords (26354 posts) - - Show Bio

@sithrevenant:

Oh and, it isn't just drain, we're just not told exactly what powers he has been afforded by the station. One of them fuels his actual power (the absorption of the spirit) as he himself puts it:

The other replenishes his life force, meaning he saps the remaining life from the Jedi:

You just said the same thing twice, my dude. He transfers their energy to himself so he can heal.

The third gives him the ability to endure attacks:

That's not even what that quote says. It says (and you gave no context for the quote) Malak ignored some damage because of his durability, whether that durability is the cause of his cybernetics or alchemical enhancements, both things Malak has indepedent of the Star Forge.

There are clearly multiple powers at work here.

Not really, the one special thing Malak gets from the Forge is the ability to easily drain Jedi to death to replenish himself. Force Drain. That's exactly one power which both Nadd and Kun can also use. So even if I am charitable to your side and say "powers" is referring to this one power, Malak is still "far greater" than Nadd and Kun in areas they all share proficiency in.

Which is an equally valid, though I'd argue moreso via Occam's Razor, interpretation of the blog without Herndon's input as your own.

Yeah, nobody really takes this scrambling seriously. Occam's Razor would dictate that "far greater than" means "far greater than", not "Malak learned powers Kun didn't but Kun is still more powerful."

@azronger said:

@i_like_swords: Ventress-level is way too high for Kun tbh.

Kit Fisto might be a more fitting opponent.

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#29 Posted by Azronger (4336 posts) - - Show Bio
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#30 Posted by dark-sith123 (5033 posts) - - Show Bio
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#31 Edited by fairtrade (780 posts) - - Show Bio
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#32 Posted by dark-sith123 (5033 posts) - - Show Bio

@fairtrade:

More interesting, since Az getting cucked by Ant is rather unrealistic, and the inverse happened in the first two posts of their debate- which unless Az screws up is completely his for the taking.

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#33 Posted by Slayedigneel (1921 posts) - - Show Bio
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#34 Edited by HitTheAssasin (8758 posts) - - Show Bio

From what I can see, this confirms that in Legens Canon, Malak with the Star Forge is far greater than Exar Kun or Freedon Nadd, which doesn't discredit Kun, but rather proves that SF Malak is a real powerhouse.

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#35 Posted by Erkan12 (9248 posts) - - Show Bio

They are like Inquisitor levels at this point, but yeah thanks for the info.

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#36 Posted by dark-sith123 (5033 posts) - - Show Bio

@slayedigneel:

Well, at least I'm not as poor as Exar Kun :)

Ant replied pretty well now, but Az did pretty clearly hold the advantage for the first two posts.

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#37 Posted by RukelnikovFTW (6142 posts) - - Show Bio

The guy is pretty clear that Forge Malak >>> Kun

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#38 Edited by RedHeathen (2266 posts) - - Show Bio

@sithrevenant can you please supply more of the conversation? And thanks for tagging me! =)

I haven't read or played anything about SWTOR, so can you please clarify this for me: I'm not sure what the Star Forge is. Is it a place? Is it something that is conditional for Malak? Meaning did he have limited exposure to it, or was it something that permanently changed him? Permanently made him more powerful?

EDIT: nevermind - I got it.

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#39 Posted by SithRevenant (1165 posts) - - Show Bio

@i_like_swords:

Yeah it clearly isn't the same thing, one saps their remaining life energy, that's the drain you're referring to, meaning they were alive at the time:

The Sith Lord had grotesquely adapted the Rakatan device to draw energy directly from chained Jedi captives. He replenished his life force from the captives by draining theirs.

Credit: Databanks

The second lets him feed on their spirits to become more powerful:

See the bodies? You should recognize them from the Academy. These are Jedi who fell when I attacked Dantooine. For all intents and purposes dead, except for one difference: I have not let them become one with the Force. Instead I have brought them here. The Star Forge corrupts what remains of their power and transfers the dark taint to me! You cannot beat me, Revan. Not here on the Star Forge. Not when I can draw upon the power of all these Jedi!

Credit: Darth Malak

Which absolutely isn't Force Drain, and typically requires a ritual like we see from Tulak Hord:

"Three hundred years after Tulak Hord, the Sith Ergast tried to recreate the ritual the Dark Lord used to devour the spirits of his enemies at Yn and Chabosh. In its place, he discovered what he called the ritual of Force-walking. Requiring a Sith of great strength of will, the ritual of Force-walking allows the user to bind the restless ghosts of dead Sith to himself. Once the ghosts are bound, the ritualist may draw from their power, channeling it into a powerful exertion of Force energy against his enemies."

Credit: Force-Walking Codex Entry

The quote doesn't even know itself, whether or not it is either cybernetics or alchemy. As it says it 'is anybody's guess.' The Forge affording him greater ability to endure damage makes a lot more sense.

Kun's drain is also actually his least impressive area, as we see him requiring a temple to drain the Massassi and then a ritual to transform into an essence.

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#40 Posted by RedHeathen (2266 posts) - - Show Bio

said:
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Not really ILS will godstomp this amateur

not really. he's also making comments that aren't logical.

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#41 Posted by i_like_swords (26354 posts) - - Show Bio

@in-sidiousvader said:
said:
No Caption Provided

Not really ILS will godstomp this amateur

not really. he's also making comments that aren't logical.

What would be entertaining is to hear you expand on that. It seems your "ignore ILS for the rest of eternity policy" expires when you see an opportunity to score some cheap points.

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#42 Posted by i_like_swords (26354 posts) - - Show Bio

@i_like_swords:

Yeah it clearly isn't the same thing, one saps their remaining life energy, that's the drain you're referring to, meaning they were alive at the time:

The Sith Lord had grotesquely adapted the Rakatan device to draw energy directly from chained Jedi captives. He replenished his life force from the captives by draining theirs.

Credit: Databanks

The second lets him feed on their spirits to become more powerful:

See the bodies? You should recognize them from the Academy. These are Jedi who fell when I attacked Dantooine. For all intents and purposes dead, except for one difference: I have not let them become one with the Force. Instead I have brought them here. The Star Forge corrupts what remains of their power and transfers the dark taint to me! You cannot beat me, Revan. Not here on the Star Forge. Not when I can draw upon the power of all these Jedi!

Credit: Darth Malak

Which absolutely isn't Force Drain, and typically requires a ritual like we see from Tulak Hord:

"Three hundred years after Tulak Hord, the Sith Ergast tried to recreate the ritual the Dark Lord used to devour the spirits of his enemies at Yn and Chabosh. In its place, he discovered what he called the ritual of Force-walking. Requiring a Sith of great strength of will, the ritual of Force-walking allows the user to bind the restless ghosts of dead Sith to himself. Once the ghosts are bound, the ritualist may draw from their power, channeling it into a powerful exertion of Force energy against his enemies."

Credit: Force-Walking Codex Entry

The quote doesn't even know itself, whether or not it is either cybernetics or alchemy. As it says it 'is anybody's guess.' The Forge affording him greater ability to endure damage makes a lot more sense.

Kun's drain is also actually his least impressive area, as we see him requiring a temple to drain the Massassi and then a ritual to transform into an essence.

One quote says "draw energy from" and Malak says "draw upon power." There is no distinction made between him drawing on their life force/power - it's one in the same. Which is obvious, because Malak doesn't drain Jedi on separate occasions using two different powers. He only drains Jedi in one instance on the Star Forge, using the same power. Nobody has arms long enough to sustain this amount of reaching.

So no, Occam's Razor dictates that Malak's powers being far greater than Exar Kun's means he is far greater than him in a combat scenario. There is no clarification on what exact power it's referring to because it's speaking to Malak's general, overall superiority. Like I keep reminding you, "powers" is an umbrella term for power, skill, proficiency etc when used in this context.

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#43 Posted by RedHeathen (2266 posts) - - Show Bio

@redheathen said:
@in-sidiousvader said:
said:
No Caption Provided

Not really ILS will godstomp this amateur

not really. he's also making comments that aren't logical.

What would be entertaining is to hear you expand on that. It seems your "ignore ILS for the rest of eternity policy" expires when you see an opportunity to score some cheap points.

I don't have an "ignore ILS" policy, temporarily or permanently.

I also did not intend to take a cheap shot at you. I can see how what I said came across that way, and for that, I do sincerely apologize. I hope you will accept my apology. People ganged up on sithrevenant, and it was unnecessary. What they accused him of while praising you was something that I saw you do as well. I just tried to point that fact out and didn't think beyond that fact, and in doing so, I did come across negatively. Again, I never intended to do that, and I was in the wrong.

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#44 Edited by SithRevenant (1165 posts) - - Show Bio

@i_like_swords:

1.There's a very distinct contradiction that you're ignoring.

Whilst we don't see him using Life Drain on-screen, the Databank notes specifically that this is exactly one of the things he was able to do using the Star Forge.

The ability to corrupt their spirits upon death and absorb that power is nothing like Force Drain, at all. It's clearly a different technique, and one that was clearly a lost secret given how much trouble the Sith would go to in attempts to uncover Hord's ritual.

2.Herndon very specifically states at the beginning of the article:

An imposing figure with ghostly pale features, prominent Sith tattoos, a gleaming red lightsaber, and devastating Dark Side power

Credit: Web Supplement

Whereas, in the rest of the thread, he refers to 'powers'. This is the biggest smoking gun of the article:

Using a mysterious power source as yet undiscovered (complete Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic to learn more), Darth Malak possesses extraordinary dark side Force powers out of proportion, in game terms, with his class and level.

Credit: Web Supplement

So this very clearly states that via the Star Forge Malak wielded Force powers that were beyond his 'in game terms, [with] his class and level'/power. There's absolutely no argument here.

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#45 Posted by i_like_swords (26354 posts) - - Show Bio

@sithrevenant:

1.There's a very distinct contradiction that you're ignoring.

Whilst we don't see him using Life Drain on-screen, the Databank notes specifically that this is exactly one of the things he was able to do using the Star Forge.

The ability to corrupt their spirits upon death and absorb that power is nothing like Force Drain, at all. It's clearly a different technique, and one that was clearly a lost secret given how much trouble the Sith would go to in attempts to uncover Hord's ritual.

Sorry, but I'm not the one ignoring anything, and I'm not prepared to go in circles with you until the end of time. The databank is referring to exactly the same "chained Jedi captives" as the ones he drains in the Star Forge battle. You have no evidence that these are two distinct powers. You're just taking a databank and Malak's dialogue, noting that they say exactly the same thing with different words, and trying to impose a distinction that isn't there. Evidently all Malak did was drain their remaining energy when he was injured, which is what prompts the dialogue in the first place.

Loading Video...

2.Herndon very specifically states at the beginning of the article:

An imposing figure with ghostly pale features, prominent Sith tattoos, a gleaming red lightsaber, and devastating Dark Side power

Whereas, in the rest of the thread, he refers to 'powers'. This is the biggest smoking gun of the article:

Using a mysterious power source as yet undiscovered (complete Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic to learn more), Darth Malak possesses extraordinary dark side Force powers out of proportion, in game terms, with his class and level.

So this very clearly states that via the Star Forge Malak wielded Force powers that were beyond his 'in game terms, [with] his class and level'/power. There's absolutely no argument here.

Holy shit, you're going to dislocate a shoulder if you keep reaching like this. "In game terms" means that he is solely referring to gameplay mechanics. Malak, in gameplay, wields powers out of proportion. Has nothing to do with your argument that Malak's "far greater powers" refer to a myriad of powers unavailable to Exar Kun. This is possibly the most asinine, drawn out debate I've had in years.

So let's do a quick recap before you have the final word. Your first argument was:

So Malak's far greater powers than Kun? Is all about his ability to conquer the Republic, with Revan no less, using the Star Forge.

[...]

Lastly, that isn't what he says, he says that Malak would've been the most powerful because he in a position to use the Forge and Revan to conquer the Republic. The powers in reference are domination of the galaxy.

But as we saw, when this argument fell apart under scrutiny, instead of conceding you switched the goalposts and adopted a brand new argument, which was that it was referring to numerous powers, including military and Force power. But then you also say that the quote is contradictory and cannot be referring to Force powers.

Nah, it's referring to numerous powers. Plural. You know. Like you claimed was the case in Muur's statement over Krayt. Or have you changed your mind? More importantly, the statement itself actually contradicts the idea that it is referring to Force power, because it's redundant.

An imposing figure with ghostly pale features, prominent Sith tattoos, a gleaming red lightsaber, and devastating Dark Side power, Malak struck terror into the hearts of his former allies. He also wore a vocal mask that may have concealed a form of cybernetic life-support. Did it provide him with powers far greater than even Exar Kun or Freedon Nadd, or was cybernetic enhancement too simple an explanation?

The mask part is irrelevant, because we know it's the Star Forge. The Star Forge afforded him an endless supply of ships, droids, and virtual immortality as the boon to his actual power. But Herndon also includes Revan, adding to the idea that Malak himself is kind of irrelevant. It's the use of this station, which allows pretty much anyone gauranteed conquest over the Republic, that allows him to be one of the most powerful Sith. Because clearly conquest was a big deal to Herndon.

After another rebuttal, you flat out ditched the military argument altogether. Ultimately, the argument that Kun can be more personally powerful than Malak while Malak has "far greater powers" than Kun while on the Star Forge is untenable, something obvious to everyone here apart from you. The Star Forge is an extremely powerful nexus and power station which amps Malak, while also facilitating the transfer of energy from his Jedi captives to himself. Those are the "far greater powers" Malak possesses over Kun. Meaning. When Malak is on the Star Forge, as we saw when Revan fought him, he is "far greater" than Exar Kun. It's that simple.

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#46 Posted by Azronger (4336 posts) - - Show Bio

@i_like_swords: Sorry to butt in, but the bit about Malak having dark side powers out of proportion isn't referring to gameplay. The article merely phrases it "in game terms," which is what "class" and "level" are, but the statement itself should from the looks of it still be applicable to continuity.

Regardless, this doesn't really change much. In fact it confirms the idea of Malak's far-greater-than-Exar-Kun powers stemming from the dark side and debunks the military might interpretation entirely.

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#47 Edited by SithRevenant (1165 posts) - - Show Bio

@i_like_swords: You're very clearly ignoring the distinction between one act requiring the Jedi to be alive and another act requiring the Jedi to be dead, in which their spirits are released. Concession accepted.

Oh and you're the one reaching here, that you flat out scream 'gameplay mechanics' as soon as the article proves I'm on the money. (It clearly isn't just gameplay mechanics when it retroactively applies a story element as an explanation for why this is.) Only proves your argument is getting weaker by the post. It's not just gameplay mechanics, and proves I've been right this whole time. If you refuse to put forth any other counter to this, I'm taking this as a concession too.

And no. My poor, old, deluded friend. I made this very argument in my new Kun Respect Thread. Prior to this thread's creation. Your baseless dismissal of this thread's argument; and a further outright refusal to even acknowledge the possibility of your interpretation being wrong due to a reference to a mask, forced my hand in playing this argument.

You're attempting to try and make it look like you're right when the actual evidence distinctly proves you're wrong.

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#48 Posted by i_like_swords (26354 posts) - - Show Bio

@sithrevenant:

I know your reading comprehension is better than that. They were "for all intents and purposes dead," which means they were functionally dead without actually being dead. Which is why they hadn't become with one with the Force, in order to do that, you need to be dead.

For all intents and purposes dead, except for one difference: I have not let them become one with the Force.

The rest of your post is pretty much just garbage, so if that's everything...

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#49 Posted by SithRevenant (1165 posts) - - Show Bio

@i_like_swords: No. They are dead. The only difference is that their spirits haven't become one with the Force, because the Star Forge corrupts them and Malak feeds on their tainted spirits to get literally more powerful. Oh and, maybe it's gone over your head a bit, but just because we don't see him doing other things on the Star Forge. Doesn't mean they didn't happen.

Just because you call it garbage doesn't mean you're making any less of a concession.

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#50 Edited by i_like_swords (26354 posts) - - Show Bio

@sithrevenant: Malak didn't mention anything about spirits, that's all you. Dude, in the two quotes we're discussing, where Malak drains their life force aka energy aka power, it's discussing the same "Jedi captives."

Like, let's just lay this out. Undeniably, for your argument to work, the Jedi we see Malak draining (with the same red beam that is used for Force drain in KOTOR II, for the record) have to be the ones who apparently he is ripping the spirits from. And Malak has to be life draining other Jedi captives in another instance off-panel that only the databank is referring to. The same databank which gets all of its content from in-universe events which have already happened.

Problem with your argument, aside from the twenty holes we can already see in it: when we see Malak draining the Jedi, the sole purpose of him doing so is to replenish his life energy by draining theirs, i.e Force Drain, the same power being referred to in the databank.

So let's give you a list of things you need to counter, unless you want to finally give up:

  • Differentiate the red beam Malak uses from Force drain as we traditionally see it in KOTOR, because if you can't, it's just drain
  • Prove that a databank can make up brand new events, even though the whole point of them is to summarise existing events
  • Prove that Malak isn't draining the life force from these Jedi in his fight with Revan, even though, evidently, he is, because he drains them when his health drops to replenish himself