Comic Vine Battle of the Week: Daredevil vs. Nightwing

@jashro44: problem is the nightwing fangirls/boys, he has that cute ass and girls/guys will vote for him because of that shapely toned bum

Wow, cats going hard in this thread. I would have voted stalemate if it was for one deciding factor: Nightwing's arsenal. In my opinion, NW is faster, been a trained aerialist since he was a child, they only showed him when he 10. Its safe to say he was doing it before that; his parents wouldn't put a green horn in danger unless he's been doing it for years.

Strength is probably a tie since they are around the same size and can accomplish similar feats. Speed and reflexes are probably a tie as well, with a slight advantage to NW just because he has been doing the superhero thing the longest. Plus NW fights smart, like Bats, so since this is a random encounter NW wouldn't just fight at full skill. He would assess DD level. If its too much, gadgets,nwhich are made to disoriented and overload senses.

Thus the winner, NW, but not by much.

Nightwing won't use gadgets just because he has know idea if he'll need them or not.

This is so funny how can this vote be so close Nightwing vs Daredevil ? Come on let me laugh it's like a lot just discover DD. Batman ok because he's in the same league as captain america and DD has a draw with cap how come Dick who batman beats like a small boy can even compete with DD and if we go back in time those two characters didn't have the same ways of fighting is when DC change Dick into nightwing, He started fighting like DD but even though DD has more astonishing feats. If it was gambit against nightwing ok but Daredevil the template of nightwing you can even see the similitude hell Kitchen for DD oh ok let give dick Bluhaven so please find somebody who can be in the league of Matt like lady Shiva not Nightwing

@jashro44

In regards to bullets, you are correct in saying that Daredevil has better reflexes than Nightwing, but just to be clear neither of them are bullet timers. They're bullet dodgers at best, albeit one is better than the other. Daredevil's special senses allow him to perform feats such as deflecting bullets, because he's able to calculate/predict the trajectory of the bullet as the shooter is in the middle of pulling the trigger. His body, on the other hand, is still limited to human capabilities. Therefore, it is impossible for him to be a bullet timer since that requires superhuman speed. Nightwing is still a bullet dodger (having dodged gunshots fired directly in front of his face), but unlike Daredevil, does have any capability of seeing or sensing bullet trajectory. He can still predict the path at which it travels, but not nearly to the same extent as Daredevil can. I will, however, say that Nightwing has the advantage when facing rifles. Rounds fired from rifles travel faster than the speed of sound. From a distance, Daredevil won't be able to sense the shooter's aim nor hear the bullet before it reaches him (assuming he doesn't already know the location of his attacker). In other words, he fairs just as well as a blind man. Nightwing would at least be able to see and react to the muzzle flash. If you see Matt hearing sniper fire from afar, then know that such feats are scientifically impossible given his listed power set (i.e. - PIS).

Again, I'm saying your overall point is correct when coming to the conclusion who has better reflexes. I'm only saying that the reasoning behind it is somewhat incorrect.

Ppl keep saying NW wouldnt realize DD was blind until it was to late but arent DD eyes covered on his suit making it obvious that he isnt not using his vision to fight? Thats hard for me to tell since the eyes are usually colored the same as the rest of his costume. and like someone posted before me whats stopping NW from using the 10,000 volts or whatever it is running though his suit to shock DD? Unless DD hears the hum of electricity coming from his suit or eskrima sticks (which could easily be from some other tech in his suit or his surroundings) DD wouldnt expect it or be able to see it coming.

I admit this would be a good fight but i think it would be a quick fight (15-30 min) before Nightwing gets him w the electricity or figures out DD is blind and or hypersensitive to sonic sounds.

@degraaf:

No, Daredevil's eyes simply have lenses that mask them (similar to the ones Nightwing uses to mask his eyes). The only way to tell that Matt is blind is by paying attention to the specific way he moves his head while searching for an opponent. If we're talking about combat speed, it'd be exceedingly hard to take the time and study his particular body movement before DD knocks you out. I'm not saying it's impossible since a few characters have noticed this (don't have the scans off hand to prove this), but it is a very difficult feat to pull off against him.

As I also said in my previous posts, the 150,000V taser can only be used if Nightwing grabs Daredevil with his hands. Both DD and NW are nearly superhuman in speed and agility, so it's doubtful that either one can land a solid blow/grip unless if they choose to resort to wrestling. That's why equipment plays a pivotal role in this fight.

@alak: how could NW react to muzzle flash without super speed? The bullet would hit him before he saw a flash or heard the gunfire.

@wavemotioncannon:

Light travels at ~186,000 miles per second. A .50 cal sniper round travels at ~2,800 feet per second. Sound travels at ~1,126 feet per second. An average human being will be able to see a sniper's muzzle flash before getting hit by the bullet, and will get struck by said bullet before hearing the gunshot. Nightwing has dodged a sniper round after seeing the muzzle flash:

http://s932.photobucket.com/user/themanwonder/media/Agility-Speed/nw133-sniperdodge.jpg.html

However, this is only one occasion where he's performed this particular feat. He's dodged and saved others from snipers before, but not like this exact same scenario. Therefore, it may be considered PIS depending on who you're debating with.

@alak: On the subject of daredevil not being able to track a rifle bullet because rifles travel faster then the speed of sound, your right about it not making sense. However the problem with this is comics aren't real. If something is happening consistently we have to except it. Writers don't really think this way and daredevil has been able to keep track of sniper fire consistently.

Gallery

Gallery

Same deal with them reacting to bullets after they are fired. It isn't realistic by real life standard but a lot of things that happen in comics aren't realistic. I don't know how daedevil senses sniper bullets from a distance, maybe there is something that is unexplained about his radar sense but he does it consistently.

I am not saying we should ignore logic when we quantify feats but there needs to be a line. For example karate kid is also peak human and yet he does ridiculous stuff like fights kryptonians. If you want to take it a step further realistically spider-man shouldn't be able to lift 10 tons. His muscle mass doesn't support that weight and he doesn't have the support in his physiology to do that. The logic is spider-man has radio active blood doesn't make sense realistically. There has to be a certain line where we limit to how much logic plays a role with feats is what I am trying to say if that makes sense. I understand where you are coming from but I can't agree with it. If its consistent I think we have to accept it IMO.

Nightwing is the better fighter overall. Agility and speed are roughly equal. Honestly, I think Daredevil's superhuman senses would give him the win in the end.

@jashro44: maybe he hears the click of the hammer or smells gun oil or some other comic book logic lol. I know he's tracked people by heartbeat before, could he possibly ascertain he's about to be shot at from a combination of those senses? Still doesn't explain him which direction the bullets coming from.

As I said we can probably speculate all we want but we really wont know unless marvel decides to explain it. All though I don't think it matters how it works logically if its consistent.

@jashro44

I agree that feats that have been repeated should be taken into account regardless if they are PIS or otherwise (honestly, I do that with Batman in battles). However, based on the scans you provided, only the instance of Matt saving Spider-man shows that he can react well to sniper fire. In the book where he takes out the sniper who was targeting him, the gunman never even took the shot. DD was aware of his presence and quickly deduced his location, allowing him to evade and take down the sniper before the man even had the chance to shoot. It still poses as an excellent feat and by all means you should use it to show off Daredevil's intuitive skill and reaction time. However, it doesn't show him reacting to distance shooters after the fact that they have fired. The two scans in which Matt heard a sound before barely avoiding getting killed by the bullet of an assassin shows that he is aware of a shooter at the last minute. However, he simply notices "That sound" which is left ambiguous. We don't know if he picked up the sound of he trigger being pulled or the hammer striking the firing pin. Guns are complex tools and there are a lot of components involved. As for the scans showing him dodging machine gun fire point blank, that isn't considered as long range shooting. There are too many elements that allow Daredevil to avoid his attackers. At that range, it's pretty much a cake walk to him. That leaves us with the Spider-man scan. As I said, it shows that he can react well to sniper fire. Granted, we don't know how he did it (could be a different elements involved), but I will give you the benefit of the doubt for that encounter. At the same time, I find it questionable that Spider-man was caught off guard by the bullet...

Anyways, whether either combatant can dodge distant sniper fire is irrelevant to this battle. The only take home message we all need to know is that both Daredevil and Nightwing are unbelievably fast and are agile enough to evade seemingly unavoidable attacks. Bringing back my main point, physical combat doesn't do much here since neither combatant should be able to successfully land a solid punch or kick on his opponent. Equipment determines who wins here.

@alak: I think I can agree with that if I am understanding correctly. All though in the scan where he notices the sniper bullet he does hear the shooter however he doesn't seem to notice the bullet until after it is fired.

And about the spider-man example the reason spider-man was caught off guard was because daredevil messed up his spider-sense because they were about to fight. Spider-man was also acting irrational which is another reason he had some issues with daredevil in that encounter as well.

Here are the full scans to give you the full context:

Gallery

Again important I stress I am not uploading this as a feat for daredevil but just to explain why spider-man didn't detect the bullet (the last part isn't for you so much as other people who may read my comment and think I am using this as a feat for daredevil).

Nightwing was trained by the best detective in DC and is keen to pick up on DD's weaknesses. Better tech and similar strength really only leaves DD with his senses which, while formidable, would only bring so much of a challenge.

@jashro44:

Ah, thanks for explaining the Spider-man fight. That makes a lot more sense now.

They aren't similar in strength. Don't get me wrong, Nightwing has a lot of good strength showings for a human being, but Daredevil has strength feats that rival Batman's (due to similar physical build). However, you are correct in saying that Nightwing has superior technology and better detective feats.

@alak: No problem.

If DD's history ended with his silver age, this probably would have been a safe win in Nightwing's favor. But DD wasn't defined by his silver age. Neither was Grayson fortunately. DD certainly is no Spider-Man even today, but he's certainly had better treatment than Nightwing. I can't believe that doesn't play a major factor in this discussion.

who is winning right now?

@jonny_anonymous: oh... alright, in that case I think Daredevil would win :))

@sunman: dd.. for now.

keep it that way ;)

I'm conflicted on this one, might have to abstain from voting

@sunman: Let me help you as a somewhat unbiased but hypocritical voter

Pick Daredevil

@azura_thena:

your logic is completely ridiculous. by taking your same logic, your saying that Dick Grayson moves at speeds excess of 500 miles per hour. since you have already stated over and over again any street leveler can dodge a bullet and contest you must move faster than something to dodge it, therefore you are directly implying that Dick Grayson can travel hundreds to thousands mph. so are you suggesting that Dick Grayson is Meta? because surely no normal human can move at that rate of speed.

it's only the logical choice, you know.

DD is easily and by far a better fighter. Not to mention, he's get enhanced senses. Superhuman agility and reflexes. Sorry, but DD would win this.

I don't understand how you made the connection that Dick moves at speeds in excess of 500 miles per hour in my argument. That was your assertion, not mine. I believe you have become confused as to who is saying what at this point. It's understandable though, you may have become confused due to your boiling emotions that you have displayed this entire time. I recommend that you go read over our exchange again, after having decompressed of course.

My claim is that street levelers dodging bullets being fired at them is a common feat but nowhere did I make the claim or suggestion that they move at bullet speeds, barring few exceptions. They anticipate shots fired upon them unless they do in fact, have above human speed... which Dick does not have. I also am willing to admit that some have legitimate bullet dodging feats, having dodged after the bullet is fired but without meta speeds. This could only be done if there was suitable distance between gun and target for a target limited to human speeds. I am unsure as to how you managed to confuse your argument with mine but I was happy to clear it up for you.

Superhuman? since when?

@sunman: Due to the fact that Daredevil's sensory organs have such a high level of development, his inner ear, which controls the equilibrium and motions of the body, is also highly developed, aiding him in acrobatic feats that may surpass even Olympic-level athletes.

Daredevil vs. Dick Grayson as Robin seems a better match-up.

I really can't see how people are voting for Daredevil. He fights street thugs and an overweight Mr. Clean.

Nightwing has fought pretty much the entire Batman's rouge gallery with a smirk on his face. He's lead super teams since he was a child, and has fought on different planets and dimensions against god knows what. Has has also been Batman for a period of time. I guess all that means nothing since Daredevil has "super senses"? give me a break.

That just means when Nightwing kicks the living $%@! out of DD he will feel the pain on a higher level.

How is NW even this close to DD in this poll?

Nightwing I think has the advantage since he had more training with the Bat and all the Villains hes fought over the years. True he would hold back but not to much where he would let DD beat on him.

Daredevil would get the drop on Nightwing early on, but as soon as Dick deduces that this guy is using some kind of radar, the sonics come into play. Nightwing is better trained and better equipped than Daredevil. At the end of the day he is dealing with a more acrobatic and grounded Man-Bat. A foe that Nightwing has experience in taking down. However, Murdock gets the last laugh with the media circus trial that follows when Dick Grayson is arrested for beating up a blind man.

@smoothjammin There's an article speculating Dick's speed and agility are superpowers. If you find it, please post it soon. Dick's abilities are potentially comparable to Cassandra Cain, someone who's also been accused of being a metahuman: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cassandra_Cain#Training_and_abilities

There's an article speculating Dick's speed and agility are superpowers. If you find it, please post it soon. Dick's abilities after the new 52 are potentially comparable to Cassandra Cain, someone who's also been accused of being a metahuman.

Dick was able to keep up with Cassie in a chase before "Flashpoint". Much has been said of speed (that he's faster than Batman) and reflexes (dodging a baton thrown by Ravager after being mocked for not having superhuman reflexes). What about the time he saved that woman from being assassinated by Deathstroke? Deathstroke IS a superhuman marksman with the reflexes to boot.

Is Deathstroke less of a marksman than Bullseye?

What about the time Dick blocked a kick from Jesse Quick, a speedster and martial artist?

How about this: Is Daredevil's radar sense just a replacement for his sight or is it intuitive? I've always thought that the first was true. Dick's reflexes have always been defined by intuition. He just "knows" when something's going to happen. It's not a trait set in science or logic. How else would he be able to dodge heat vision?

"Radar sense" isn't full proof either, but it makes sense for a character like Daredevil.

@smoothjammin @vernierhawk001 @nathaniel_christopher

I found a site featuring Dick Grayson's feats in strength, agility, and more. Please it give a read and post accordingly: http://nightwingfeats.blogspot.com/p/power-strength.html

Please read the post below your quote.

I love when people use the "dick has been trained by Batman so he's a better fighter" argument.. That's about as accurate as if Michael Jordan taught me basketball so I must be as good as him, SMH. Just because Bruce taught Dick everything he knows doesn't equate to Dick being anywhere near Bruce in skill or anything else for that matter. This poll shouldn't even be this close. Matt would beat Dick all damn day. He's better in almost every category that really matters. People are choosing Nightwing with their hearts and not their heads.

@vampireselektor: Yea I'v read it and what?

Dick has shown reflexes, ability, and aggression roughly equal to Daredevil. He's outfought metahumans head on, dodged attacks from speedsters and superhuman marksman, and saved the day improbably thanks to his intuition. Remember when Dick saved Red Robin from falling mid-air because he had a feeling something was wrong? Or the time Batman counted on Nightwing to show up at just the right time to help "Batman R.I.P."? What about the level of physical strength it takes to patrol a city using acrobatics alone?

Please read the post below.

I honestly don't care who wins this battle. The fact that Daredevil fans constantly dismiss Nightwing irritates me, though. What do you really know about the character's history? Do you know his feats? One could argue YOU are thinking with your heart instead of your head.

@jonny_anonymous: 1) You are underestimating Nightwing's own speed, reflexes and timing 2) Nightwing regularly performs acrobatics beyond the skills of most Olympians, being the "World's Greatest Acrobat" and all 3) The post I listed cites examples of Nightwing's feats. My apologies, I meant to reply to @jj62.

Just a reminder that this will be locked TOMORROW MORNING (ET)!

@k4tzm4n: What's your opinion of the fight or are you staying unbiased?

That's a shame. I'm just now finding all these scans on Dick Grayson. Here's a scene where Dick hears a nearby sniper and saves a woman.

There are scenes like that and more on NightwingFeats.

,There's also a scene where Nightwing solves a case before even Batman - Parts 1, 2, 3, 4,

5

6

7

8

9

10

Here's a scene where Dick caught Slade trying to sneak up on him. Slade, again, is an actualsuperhuman.

Here's a scene where Dick intimidates the League of Assassins back into

letting Michael Lane keep the Suit of Sorrows

* This demonstrates the respect Nightwing commands as a fighter.

Nightwing's ass in "Secret Six" is a popular picture on Tumblr. People neglect to remember that Nightwing ordered Bane, Catman, and Ragdoll to leave Gotham or else fight him. This underscores his fearlessness.

There's an argument that Nightwing wouldn't realize Daredevil is blind. Nightwing did, however, train himself to fight and travel blind in order to become Robin. Here, he puts Tim through the same training -

Part 1 - http://s932.photobucket.com/user/themanwonder/media/Martial%20Arts/Training/nw25-blindtraining1a.jpg.html

Part 2 - http://s932.photobucket.com/user/themanwonder/media/Martial%20Arts/Training/nw25-blindtraining1b.jpg.html

Part 3 - http://s932.photobucket.com/user/themanwonder/media/Martial%20Arts/Training/nw25-blindtraining1c.jpg.html

Part 4 - http://s932.photobucket.com/user/themanwonder/media/Martial%20Arts/Training/nw25-blindtraining1d.jpg.html

Part 5 - http://s932.photobucket.com/user/themanwonder/media/Martial%20Arts/Training/nw25-blindtraining1f.jpg.html

Part 6 - http://s932.photobucket.com/user/themanwonder/media/Martial%20Arts/Training/nw25-blindtraining1g.jpg.html

Part 7 - http://s932.photobucket.com/user/themanwonder/media/Martial%20Arts/Training/nw25-blindtraining1h.jpg.html

Part 8 - http://s932.photobucket.com/user/themanwonder/media/Martial%20Arts/Training/nw25-blindtraining1i.jpg.html

Part 9 - http://s932.photobucket.com/user/themanwonder/media/Martial%20Arts/Training/nw25-blindtraining1j.jpg.html

Part 10 - http://s932.photobucket.com/user/themanwonder/media/Martial%20Arts/Training/nw25-blindtraining1k.jpg.html

Part 11 - http://s932.photobucket.com/user/themanwonder/media/Martial%20Arts/Training/nw25-blindtraining2a.jpg.html

Part 12 - http://s932.photobucket.com/user/themanwonder/media/Martial%20Arts/Training/nw25-blindtraining2b.jpg.html

Part 13 - http://s932.photobucket.com/user/themanwonder/media/Martial%20Arts/Training/nw25-blindtraining2c.jpg.html

Part 14 - http://s932.photobucket.com/user/themanwonder/media/Martial%20Arts/Training/nw25-blindtraining2d.jpg.html

Part 15- http://s932.photobucket.com/user/themanwonder/media/Martial%20Arts/Training/nw25-blindtraining2e.jpg.html

Part 16 - http://s932.photobucket.com/user/themanwonder/media/Martial%20Arts/Training/nw25-blindtraining2f.jpg.html (notice how he knows where the thugs landed)

Part 17 - http://s932.photobucket.com/user/themanwonder/media/Martial%20Arts/Training/nw25-blindtraining1d.jpg.html

Part 18 - http://s932.photobucket.com/user/themanwonder/media/Martial%20Arts/Training/nw25-blindtraining3a.jpg.html

Part 19 - http://s932.photobucket.com/user/themanwonder/media/Martial%20Arts/Training/nw25-blindtraining3b.jpg.html

Part 20 - http://s932.photobucket.com/user/themanwonder/media/Martial%20Arts/Training/nw25-blindtraining3c.jpg.html

Part 21 - http://s932.photobucket.com/user/themanwonder/media/Martial%20Arts/Training/nw25-blindtraining3d.jpg.html

Part 22- http://s932.photobucket.com/user/themanwonder/media/Martial%20Arts/Training/nw25-blindtraining3e.jpg.html

I'll try to post more later. People tend to over hype the gap between Daredevil and Nightwing, if there is one at all.

EDIT: Here's a list of Nightwing's "good showings" and feats of strength

*This includes beatingupBlockbuster

Who else but Dick Grayson continued to fight with a gunshot wound to the head? Wasn't Dick Grayson the first person to ever escape Deathstroke? (see parts 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 here). Again, Nightwing is formidable. Even Slade gives him credit.

This is awesome, I love versus stuff. Since this is going to be locked, let me lobby for a few matchups for future topics (with pics)

Amazo vs Super Adaptoid

Deadshot vs Bullseye

Imperiex and Mangog

Taskmaster vs Deathstroke

Batgirl (cain) vs Elektra

Mandarin vs Sinestro

Superman vs Gladiator