Cap more powerful then we think?

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theredhood44

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#1  Edited By theredhood44

In the recent captain america 15# cap confessed to tonys suspended body that he is hydra and that the "good" steve is still some place in him and how he knows all his thoughts and his his memories, he says that that "him" (good steve) could have killed him any time he wanted and that the only reason he lived for this long was because he allowed it, and his fight with spiderman would have been alot shorter, and how he thinks of "him"(again good steve) as weak. So what do you think of this?

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Don_Higashikata

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I think Marvel needs to do a reboot asap. That's what I think.

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nickzambuto

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What??

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BruceRogers

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#4  Edited By BruceRogers

In the recent captain america 15# cap confessed to tonys suspended body that he is hydra and that the "good" steve is still some place in him and how he knows all his thoughts and his his memories, he says that that "him" (good steve) could have killed him any time he wanted and that the only reason he lived for this long was because he allowed it, and his fight with spiderman would have been alot shorter, and how he thinks of "him"(again good steve) as weak. So what do you think of this?

I have read #15 and I don't recall him doing such a thing. Maybe I missed something, so do you have scans?

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KrleAvenger

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Eh, I have no problem with Cap being stronger but I think he is talking about lack of Morals only. And ANADMU needs to be taken care of.

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theredhood44

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@brucerogers: @krleavenger: go to https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=KKPH3m-Szmg And then go to 20:02 and stop the frame there, it says what im talking about im on iphone btw

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KrleAvenger

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@theredhood44: It's not like I don't believe you but I appreciate the link anyway.

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theredhood44

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@krleavenger: k, go to it and ho to 20:00 he says how cap could have beaten spiderman in that moment as well as iorn man etc, but he loved them too much

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theredhood44

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I kinda do want them to do a reboot and dont at the same time, at one point I like how james hudson is coming back, and how thor is getting closer to getting his hammer and how steve is prob gonna be cap soon and I like starlords blond look, and hiw eddie is gonna be venom soon, and how peter is gonna return to the basics, but i also dont like the insane SJW **** going on at marvel

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deactivated-5a89ca5697052

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@theredhood44:

Well, I always thought he can beat Spider-man, because he had the upper hand in their 2 encounter, but ... No he can not beat Tony. Not in a million years...

He is probably stronger than we think, if he is not holding back, but probably not significantly.

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Ready_4_Madness

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Noone1996

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#12 Noone1996  Online

The only instances where he could have killed Tony at any time was when he used an electronic scrambler on an unsuspecting Stark who had his faceplate up and his head exposed. Another instance is in the final issue of Civil War where Cap tore Tony's suit apart after Vision disabled his armor. I mean does it look like Cap had Tony right where he wanted him right here?

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3Gallery image 4

Cap is a street leveler. Period.

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theredhood44

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@ithemanwithoutfeari: @noone1996: look at my link, he says that he could have beaten him, killed him, but he loved him too much to do so, and he was like a brother and that hes always holding back

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Black_Arrow

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I don't think that the implication is that Cap could have beaten Iron man's armor in a staight fight but that Cap could have made a plan to kill Tony.

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deactivated-5a89ca5697052

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@theredhood44: Yeah I agree with @black_arrow

I don't think that the implication is that Cap could have beaten Iron man's armor in a staight fight but that Cap could have made a plan to kill Tony.

But I also agree with you about Spider-mans part. that Cap went easy on Spider-man and that he could have killed him, if he wanted to in their encounters.

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Batvibe12

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Noone1996

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#17  Edited By Noone1996  Online

@theredhood44: The scans simply contradict everything you are saying. He couldn't hold back his durability. He gets his ass whooped and the second set of scans I posted proves that there wasn't any chance for him to have Tony right where he wanted him like he claims. Did he hold back after Vision disabled his armor? Of course. He clearly could have killed a vulnerable Tony. Same goes for when he briefly disabled his armor with the electron scrambler, but that isn't indicative of him being above Tony or anything like that like the writer was basically implying. So no, Captain America is a street leveler and his power level is right where we think it is. So you know, I did read the scan you're talking about. It's just garbage/lies or out of context.

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sazuke2497

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@theredhood44: that's nothing but a statement an unproven statement spider-man holds back too an when spider-man does try he cause's building lvl damage cap has never ever done anything remotely close to that without it being PIS,bad writing or merely just a statement statments are not viable feats that's like me saying spider-man can beat silver surfer,fire lord or saying that he can hurt thanos just cause they have done it doesn't mean it's viable bad writing is not an accurate scaling of the character spider-man would utterly stomp cap if he really wanted to spider-man(peter) has gotten 4 perm base amps over the years that enhanced his powers an building lvl is a consistent lvl for spider-man an that's when he's not bloodlusted cap is not beating peter in any way shape or form evil cap is merely making a statement to scare people cap is low tier superhuman he is not on spider-man or ironman's lvl. read the sourcebooks bro even marvel says that cap loses to spider-man an that cap an spider-man lose to ironman. cap's a great character but don't overhype his stats.

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sazuke2497

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@noone1996: yeah agreeing with noone1996 on this one cap isn't beating ironman or spider-man not gonna happen a serious spider-man stomps a serious cap with ease. your forgetting peter has superior stats is smarter way of the spider counters all forms of martial arts when he wants to fight seriously his precognition would logically see everything cap does before it's done peter's standard tech would overwhelm cap etc. peter is far too smart to lose to cap. I agree that cap is stronger than peak human lvl but he is not on spider-man's lvl your highly underestimating peter's strength lvl. your also forgetting that at the time peter was not use to that suit tony gave him an did not know how to use it fully even without that suit cap would get his ass beat.

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sazuke2497

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@ithemanwithoutfeari: Cap is not even close to beating spider-man marvel has already stated in many sourcebooks as well as the new ones that cap is not on spider-man's lvl an that if peter were to fight seriously that peter would utterly blitz cap. problem here is you guys don't realize that peter has tech,precognition,super genius intellect, way of the spider(counter measure to all martial artists an their martial arts) as well as vastly high stats years of experience etc. peter would dominate cap i'm sorry they are no where near the same level. you cannot use PIS for spider-man or captain america. captain america is not on spidey's lvl like at all. peter has so many things even with his standard tech set up to where he'd blitz cap an kill him. peter has 40-65ton feats as well as quite a few 100+ton feats cap's feats are no where near that calibur. peter's speed feats also vastly outclass cap's. peter has FTL+ precognition dodge feats as well as lightning+ dodging feats without his spider-sense. i don't see anyway for cap to beat peter let along ironman.

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sazuke2497

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@batvibe12: why you mindblown lol it's just a statement with no truth behind it at all whatsover feats scaling and calcs as well as sourcebooks prove that cap is no where near spider-man or ironman's lvl. IronMan>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Spider-Man>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Captain America

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deactivated-5a89ca5697052

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@sazuke2497: Yes he clearly is and he already proved that he is twice.

marvel has already stated in many sourcebooks as well as the new ones that cap is not on spider-man's lvl

Pls show proof where they stated this biased non-existent bs.

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deactivated-5a90ca82ccb5f

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I think Marvel needs to do a reboot asap. That's what I think.

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god_spawn

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#24 god_spawn  Moderator

Cap can barely get any advantage over Daredevil or a weakened Wolverine, and people think he's on Spider-Man or Iron Man level? No thanks.

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those_eyes

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Cap can barely get any advantage over Daredevil or a weakened Wolverine, and people think he's on Spider-Man or Iron Man level? No thanks.

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Black_Arrow

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Cap can barely get any advantage over Daredevil or a weakened Wolverine, and people think he's on Spider-Man or Iron Man level? No thanks.

Cap certainly got the advantage over Spider Man during Civil War (Spider man had to use the Iron Spider to outfight Cap).

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Batvibe12

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@batvibe12: why you mindblown lol it's just a statement with no truth behind it at all whatsover feats scaling and calcs as well as sourcebooks prove that cap is no where near spider-man or ironman's lvl. IronMan>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Spider-Man>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Captain America

I was being sarcastic.

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linsanel_Doctor

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lol.. cap is not on Iron Man's level

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god_spawn

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#29 god_spawn  Moderator

@black_arrow: Parker also has a hero worship towards Cap, was second guessing himself and , and Cap ended up leaving after Parker got the final hit. Parker was also shown to have an advantage later on in their second encounter in Civil War.

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Black_Arrow

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#30  Edited By Black_Arrow

@god_spawn said:

@black_arrow: Parker also has a hero worship towards Cap, was second guessing himself and , and Cap ended up leaving after Parker got the final hit. Parker was also shown to have an advantage later on in their second encounter in Civil War.

He was second guessing himself before the fight happened, during the fight there was never an indication that Spiderman wasn't fighting seriously. In his thought bubbles during the fight, we know that Spider man was thinking strategies on how to beat Cap, someone that is holding back wouldn't be doing that.

I did said that Spider man ended up outfighting Cap but he had to use the weapons from the Iron spider to finally get the advantage on Cap, something he would never have in a normal fight since It's not standard gear. Before that Cap managed to hit Spiderman 3 times (one was a pressure point) in ten seconds and Spider man couldn't even tag him.

This all happened in Spider man's own book, written by Straczynski, who wrote a lot of issues of Spiderman, so the man knows Spider man and he still had Cap having the advantage over Peter. Now It's probable that even without the Iron Spider, Peter would have outlasted Cap and would end up winning, but Spider man would have to work for the win.

Was it the encounter during Civil War issue 3? That fight was very brief and Peter abused all of the capabilities of the Iron Spider. I do think that Cap would lose against Iron Spider man but he has more chances against Normal Spiderman. (I am behind current Spider man so maybe he has some crazy tech now, I am talking about Spiderman's classic gear). If this isn't the fight you are referencing, could you tell in what comics this fight happened?

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god_spawn

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#31 god_spawn  Moderator

@black_arrow: It makes a clear distinction on the fight. Parker was second guessing himself and propping up Steve the entire fight. It was pretty clear he wasn't giving it his all until he made the distinction to force Steve to fight his way. And just because he was thinking strategies doesn't mean he wasn't holding back. He can hold back and still think of different ways to win.

And considering how big of a stat gap and his regular standard gear alone puts him at a massive advantage over Steve, regardless of the Iron Spider suit or not.

And no, that was the fight. Peter jumped over the shield from a surprise attack, bashed a bunch of guys with it, and then yes, he did use the stealth mode, but Steve was being shown at the disadvantage at that point in comparison to Spider-Man.

So really, I don't get the second guessing or even putting Steve in Parker's category. He outstats him in all categories, his gear is more versatile and a perfect answer for the shield, spider-sense and isn't an idiot in combat. Steve is a better tactician and a better fighter, but that only gets him so far.

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sazuke2497

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@black_arrow: Cap hitting peter is nothing but plot induced stupidty and bad writing cap is not on the same level as peter also peter holds back considerably against cap for obvious reasons were they to fight seriously spider-man would beat cap period.

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Black_Arrow

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@black_arrow: It makes a clear distinction on the fight. Parker was second guessing himself and propping up Steve the entire fight. It was pretty clear he wasn't giving it his all until he made the distinction to force Steve to fight his way. And just because he was thinking strategies doesn't mean he wasn't holding back. He can hold back and still think of different ways to win.

And considering how big of a stat gap and his regular standard gear alone puts him at a massive advantage over Steve, regardless of the Iron Spider suit or not.

And no, that was the fight. Peter jumped over the shield from a surprise attack, bashed a bunch of guys with it, and then yes, he did use the stealth mode, but Steve was being shown at the disadvantage at that point in comparison to Spider-Man.

So really, I don't get the second guessing or even putting Steve in Parker's category. He outstats him in all categories, his gear is more versatile and a perfect answer for the shield, spider-sense and isn't an idiot in combat. Steve is a better tactician and a better fighter, but that only gets him so far.

During the fight, Spider man never mentions anything about holding back and we were reading all of his thoughts during the battle, writers usually make things like that pretty clear. If Peter was holding back and this is an easy fight, He would web him up and he would be restraining Cap without hurting him and It's a common strategy for him. But he couldn't go for that because this is not such an easy fight, Peter started winning when he remembered the capabilities of the Iron Spider suit (It took him ten seconds to remember that, It's completely logical) and he used his cutting capabilities to hurt Steve, something that he wouldn't really do if he was holding back. Peter tried most of his usual fighting techniques on Cap but Steve managed to counter all of them with his fighting ability and his tactical mind, that's why he had to rely on something uncommon (the spider legs) for him and Peter even implies it.

During this fight, It was clear that Cap had the upperhand not because of stats but because of his skill and tactical mind. You can argue if that should be enough (JMS thinks so appearantly) and if the fight is PIS or not, but It is what's potrayed in the comic. I don't think that Steve would win that fight even if Spider man didn't have the Iron suit, I just don't think It's an easy fight.

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god_spawn

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#34 god_spawn  Moderator

@black_arrow: I think it was apparent he was holding back. Again if a guy goes into a fight second guessing himself it matters and he went into that fight second guessing himself and uplaying Rogers.

And just because it happens in a comic doesn't make it legitimate. Fortunately enough for this one the writing had context to it and that was apparent. And it should be a relatively easy fight. Parker has every edge and skill only gets you so far in a straight up fight. I think the best on a Spider vs Cap fight was when Agent Venom got him webbed, yanked him and one shotted Cap. Spidey's webs are too versatile and he get a bunch off relatively quickly and in wider sprays. If Cap was going to get webbed up, Parker would have done so. But again, it was the writing and Steve dodged a bunch of regular sized strands, not a wide spread. It should be an easy fight. Cap's no pushover but Parker being at a disadvantage for so long shouldn't happen.

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Noone1996

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#35 Noone1996  Online

@those_eyes: Are you trolling or are you unaware that Vision disabled Tony's armor before damaging it?

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deactivated-5a89ca5697052

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During the fight, Spider man never mentions anything about holding back and we were reading all of his thoughts during the battle, writers usually make things like that pretty clear. If Peter was holding back and this is an easy fight, He would web him up and he would be restraining Cap without hurting him and It's a common strategy for him. But he couldn't go for that because this is not such an easy fight, Peter started winning when he remembered the capabilities of the Iron Spider suit (It took him ten seconds to remember that, It's completely logical) and he used his cutting capabilities to hurt Steve, something that he wouldn't really do if he was holding back. Peter tried most of his usual fighting techniques on Cap but Steve managed to counter all of them with his fighting ability and his tactical mind, that's why he had to rely on something uncommon (the spider legs) for him and Peter even implies it.

During this fight, It was clear that Cap had the upperhand not because of stats but because of his skill and tactical mind. You can argue if that should be enough (JMS thinks so appearantly) and if the fight is PIS or not, but It is what's potrayed in the comic. I don't think that Steve would win that fight even if Spider man didn't have the Iron suit, I just don't think It's an easy fight.

Totally agree with you.

Just ignore the excuses. One look at both fights and you can clearly see that Cap had the upper hand.

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Black_Arrow

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@black_arrow: I think it was apparent he was holding back. Again if a guy goes into a fight second guessing himself it matters and he went into that fight second guessing himself and uplaying Rogers.

And just because it happens in a comic doesn't make it legitimate. Fortunately enough for this one the writing had context to it and that was apparent. And it should be a relatively easy fight. Parker has every edge and skill only gets you so far in a straight up fight. I think the best on a Spider vs Cap fight was when Agent Venom got him webbed, yanked him and one shotted Cap. Spidey's webs are too versatile and he get a bunch off relatively quickly and in wider sprays. If Cap was going to get webbed up, Parker would have done so. But again, it was the writing and Steve dodged a bunch of regular sized strands, not a wide spread. It should be an easy fight. Cap's no pushover but Parker being at a disadvantage for so long shouldn't happen.

That's why I said, that you can argue that it is PIS and yeah if you looks at Cap consistently (I have been looking more into his feats), he is not that good, few writers really write him as that good. I think that JMS, is one of them that he wrote for Spider man doesn't really mean that he is an authority for Cap. I still maintain my view on how the fight happened, meaning that Spiderman was fighting seriously and that without the suit, It would have lasted much longer. Also I can use the argument that Cap was also unwilling to fight since he offered Spider man to join his side before the fight, when Spider Man choose to fight, both of them dropped any second guesses.

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PrinceAragorn1

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Imagining what a bad cap could do to spiderman is a lot more pleasant than what a bad spiderman would do to cap.

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sazuke2497

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@ithemanwithoutfeari: dude peter was clearly holding back in their fight an that suit he wasn't used to it it was obvious peter was holding back and that the suit was hindering his ability as he was not used to it.

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sazuke2497

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@black_arrow: peter wasn't trying at all in that fight in the Civil War comic if he did try that fight would've been ended extremely fast you guys are giving cap way too much credit here. cap is not stronger than spider-man an cap wouldn't beat spider-man at all. spider-man was holding back in that comic an did not want to hurt cap cap is not on spider-man's tier or strength lvl nor his speed either that is just PIS that cap was able to even last against spider-man. peter holds back against his friends all the time it's a common thing with him if he didn't hold back an went full serious mode cap would've gotten wrecked. end of story. cap is strong for his tier but don't put him on the same level as spider-man or ironman. ya'll need to stop hyping cap up to a level that he just isn't at PIS has no place here plus your forgetting that peter wasn't used to the iron spider suit without that suit he would've been performing better. he honestly doesn't need the suit after he got used to the suit later on this wouldn't have been a problem for him. peter wins weither he has the iron spider suit or not.

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sazuke2497

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@ithemanwithoutfeari: cap didn't have the upper hand that was just PIS and bad writing bro seriously a serious spider-man vs a serious cap is not a fight cap is not on the same level he never has been.

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sazuke2497

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@god_spawn: yeah i agree with you parker should have this fight easy he stomps cap i don't see how you guys think cap even stands a chance if peter wanted to he could've just blitzed cap webbed him up etc used his other tech in his belt etc. he has so many ways to win honestly cap doesn't have the speed or durability to keep up cap honestly shouldn't have stood a chance at all against peter.

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sazuke2497

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sazuke2497

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@those_eyes: that scan of that fight is old peter at his peak while fighting seriously would decimate cap in a fight, cap isn't on the same level in any of the stats peter is pete has every advantage any more plust tech etc, as for ironman that's also PIS ironman and spider-man either one of them stomps cap. plot induced stupidity/bad writing shouldn't be used as trying to validate a characters status/tier.

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SisterGrimm2099

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I think Marvel needs to do a reboot asap. That's what I think.

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deactivated-5a89ca5697052

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@sazuke2497: It was no bad writing. Thats called consistency.

And if Peter was holding back, then Steve was as well.

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TheWatcherKing

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@god_spawn said:

Cap can barely get any advantage over Daredevil or a weakened Wolverine, and people think he's on Spider-Man or Iron Man level? No thanks.

Cap certainly got the advantage over Spider Man during Civil War (Spider man had to use the Iron Spider to outfight Cap).

He didn't have to be in the iron spider, he just was using that at the time as it was a gift from tony that he was given at the start of civil war.

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sazuke2497

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@ithemanwithoutfeari: no it's not consistency it's merely bad writing a.k.a. PIS and of course they were both holding back they are friends not enemies neither wanted to harm eachother but spider-man holds back far more than cap does. peter was holding himself back way more considerably than cap was.

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sazuke2497

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@ithemanwithoutfeari: it's consistent bad writing cap has so badly written feats it's laughable have you ever actually asked the people who write his comics? they even say that cap isn't stronger than spider-man nor can he beat spider-man. "Midtown Comics" all you have to do is ask the companies or look at the sourcebooks consistent bad writing is not viable my friend blantant statements aren't viable either.