Can genjutsu be used on characters without chakra?

This has been brought up many times in the battles forums and people recite the same debate every time it is brought up. So instead of arguing the same thing every time, just post the link to this thread.

Life force is a source of chakra, everything living has a form of it. Being able to manipulate it and manifest it, you have to be born with that ability.

@slimj87d: I thought no one had chakra until Kaguya ate the fruit from the god tree. After that her sons had it and they gave it to the rest of the world who passed it down genetically. If someone never ate a fruit from the god tree, never got chakra in some other way and wasn't related to anyone who had chakra wouldn't they not have chakra? Also, I believe chakra was described as physical and spiritual energy, not life force.

No. Genjutsu specifically targets chakra flow, if you don't have chakra, it has nothing to target.

No

no

@kyrees: @flash_phobia: @the_stegman: @koshi_waza88: @slimj87d:

So . . . do we all agree that genjutsu cannot be used on characters that don't have chakra?

Yes. Unless we're talking about a battle in the forum and the OP states otherwise.

I think so, the whole point is to target and manipulate the senses.

@whoisme: Kaguya was the only one with chakra at her time and used a genjutsu called Infinite Tsukyomi on people who had no chakra. It was a planetary genjutsu. Later Hagoromo defeated her, he spreaded his ninshu belief for peace but they used chakra for war.

How did Kaguya's genjutsu work it used the five senses to control everyone. Now let's dig into chakra and genjutsu. It is stated on the wiki that Genjutsu controls chakra to disrupt the five senses(this is when you are under a genjutsu you wouldn't know what is real or fake since your senses are disrupted). Anyone can be put under a Genjutsu through sound,sight, etc.

Chakra became part of both the nervous system and circulatory system for people with chakra. So basically genjutsu is via mind control and much more.

If you don't understand it I can rephrase it for you.

For the sake of debating, we say that it can.

I believe there are special organs that produce chakra. Everything doesn't have chakra, but instead have ki/chi, which is spiritual energy.

So no.

Yes.

@loki_d: I get what you're saying. But I'm not participating in this argument, just initiating it.

Kishimoto kind of contradicted established lore about genjutsu when he had Kaguya perform it on people who didn't have chakra. Because of this contradiction the old information we were given about how genjutsu works can basically be thrown out the window. It's retconned, basically.

@metaljimmor: well I don't see how controlling chakra gives access to doing such things like Tsukyomi to a person. How does one control some one else's chakra? Agreed the statement made can be thrown out the window there are many genjutsu techniques that contradict how it works.

Although, Kishi did introduce Yin (shadow style) in the war with 2nd Mizukage's genjutsu.

@whoisme: They modified that. People got their powers from Kaguya's special chakra. They never actually said that people never had it before hand. Even then, if Genjutsu had no effect on people without chakra, the unlimited tsukiyomi wouldn't have taken over the minds of regular people, like it did.

@loki_d:

The chakra network is intrinsically linked with a person's anatomy. By effecting the flow of chakra in a person's brain you can influence the brain itself. That is how genjutsu originally worked and how it was described by Jiraiya.

but later (history of kaguya) it was shown that genjutsu works on people without chakra

@ratava:

I just got done explaining this. Yes. Because Kishimoto retconned the original way genjutsu functions by ignoring previously established rules.

so theres nothing to discuss and the simple answer to the thread is - yes

@ratava:

Honestly I feel there is something to discuss whenever a single writer can't keep track of his own universe and ends up retconning previously established rules. But that's just me.

How does the dispel technique work now? Because that jutsu was explained to momentarily stop your own chakra flow so you can regain control of it. Now... How does that effect the new genjutsu rules? What even ARE the new genjutsu rules? Has he established how genjutsu ACTUALLY work since he threw his own explanation out the window?

Lots of discussion to be found.

@metaljimmor: instead of the requirment of chakra in your opponents brain, by using a genjutsu you infuse your opponents brain with your chakra and thus controlling him

@ratava:

Did Kishimoto actually write that or is that what you're assuming now that the previous method has been made incorrect?

no it wasnt shown but its the easiest explanation, now that its canon that chakra is not a requirement anymore for genjutsu to work.

Yes it can, go ask Kaguya.

So basically Kishimoto sucks at his job, and created plot holes. Who retcons a series thats already in progress at the end of the series?

Kaguya was the biggest unforeshadowed @$# pull. With no battle skill getting wrecked by shadow windmill 1.5

Yes. There are feats in the manga that prove this.

Not if we go by the manga. It's really simple. It was explained, it was shown how it's disrupted/stopped.

People using one outlier(kaguya) who just happens to be essentially a god in the series need to try harder.

@third3ye: Thanks I needed some salt on my fries. :)

@whoisme: Yes, every living being has Chakra, Ki, Chi, etc... so long as someone has spiritual energy it should work.

Yes it can. People who say no need to go back and read the manga, specifically the part where Kaguya put people under Genjutsu before they even had chakra.

@thevivas: Or when the ramen guy and everyone else was under Madara.

@nite_nite: I've always seen it like this as well. Kaguya is for all intents and purposes the “God" of the Narutoverse. Her breaking long standing, previously established rules of the verse doesn't suddenly mean any random fodder can replicate her feat of using genjutsu on people without chakra. The strongest character, using the strongest Genjutsu which already contains it's own separate rules and breaking all the previously established rules of Genjutsu is no reason to make an assumption that it rectons the rules established within the series. For those who still claim that it does allow any character to genjutsu any other character without chakra, explain to me this; why does chakra play a factor in breaking genjutsu? It can't be answered, because it makes no sense and goes against everything shown in the manga. So either Kaguya is an outlier/exception to the rules

or Kishi can't write a consistent manga to save his life.

@thevivas: When did this happen? I wanna rub it in my friend's face who said she didn't.

He also said that the Sharingan only worked on people with Chakra.

@stormking1221: Thats not how it works. Chakra isn't a requirement for Genjutsu; it was never stated other than that out-of-context scan from Jiraiya people always bring up.

Kaguya put people under Genjutsu before they had chakra, then Madara put cats under a Genjutsu, and they don't have chakra. Pretty easy adding 2 and 2 from there.

@conner_wolf: During the Madara/Kaguya fight. So6P's talks to Naruto and tells him that Kaguya put the world under a Genjutsu before. Earlier, Madara mentioned that Kaguya was the first person ever to attain chakra and used it to stop all the wars around the earth(Genjutsuing them).

So6Ps then mentions that he sealed Kaguya and transferred chakra to everyone around the world. The latest databook mentions this clearer, iirc.

And no, Sharingan works on anyone. You don't need chakra to be paralyzed, see illusions, have your movements read, etc.

I feel like some people don't want to say Genjustu works on everyone because they know it would solo their fav lol...

Only Kaguya's

*sigh* Yes, it can, this has been gone over countless times, it literally happens in the manga, plain as day.

This is really late, but can someone add a link where Masashi Kishimoto discusses the Genjutsu retcon? I'm having a discussion with my find but he demands solid evidence.

Yes within the naruto universe genjutsu can be used on everyone. If looking at a crossover then its a most likely yes. Genjutsu disrupts the energy flow within the bodies neural network, it does this by pushing chakra into the body through certain mediums and combining it with the internal energy of the target. So technically in my mind so long as their is an energy/life force/spiritual component to a persons need to survive then yes it should work though the degree it works is up to debate. Because the chakra is interacting with the bodies process of living. Supposedly all lives have a physical energy and spiritual energy, together that create life, so naturally all beings have at least that tiny tiny amount at any one second within the body, why someone with that small chakra that its non existent wouldn't die if a genjutsu was placed on them disrupting that fragile creation process is because it would supplement itself in the other chakra's stead planting the illusion.

Kaguya was the first to have a working chakra system, technically chakra existed on the planet even before she arrived as nature chakra, every living thing had chakra but similar to chi it as something people would have to train to sense and use because I'm guessing they lacked a viable or complete chakra network. In my mind the chakra network was introduced when kaguya used her planetary tsukuyomi to spread the tree roots wrapping up everyone and sending them into a giant illusion. The roots acted as a external chakra network initially but my random thought is that the roots inserted themselves into their bodies creating the chakra system of today, because one she's a goddess, two somewhere i remember the manga saying that she turned a lot of those captured into her version zestsu's then back again. the chakra circulative system of animals is different from humans, also developed because of increase in chakra naturally forming a network within the body one or both is a possible explanation. And then the sage trained people to sense and use the chakra inside them. As seen from the movies (if allowed) chakra is something usable by everyone but not understood in the same manor because of physical location and such.

ok there done hope i have no more to say.

@memyselfandfantasy: Welcome to Comicvine.

@memyselfandfantasy: lol. This is an old post, but a lot of what you said is based on your opinion and not in panel showings. Kaguya being the first user of chakra on the planet as well as the strongest could be a reason for her to have effected those without chakra with genjutsu, but since shes the only one to have done so, and is the first and strongest in chakra, it cannot be assumed that others can replicate this feat. No one since, it having been stated in panel she did this in the past, has had any showings in panel or author statements to support then being able to utilize genjutsu against people without chakra.

Sasuke Genjutsu’d Manda so If summoning don’t have chakra then yes

Kaguga being able to use genjutsu on non chakra users is her feat and hers alone ..the fact her genjutsu is so strong that it can affect you regardless of you having chakra or not only proves that her genjutsu is on another level so this doesn't mean every genjutsu user in the verse can also do so it just doesn't make sense especially when it hasn't been addressed by the author..the logic is the same as saying all sharingan users can use amatarasu because Itachi and assume can or all sage mode users can summon shinsusenju because a sage mode user can

And it even makes less sense when used in battles debate against other verse ... because in the Naruto vere it's been stated that known ways of stopping a genjutsu is to

1.increase your chakra flow if you're the one affected

2 have others /teammates pump in chakra into your body to cancle out the genjutsu...so when genjutsu is used on characters from a verse that can't or don't have chakra to increase or give to others to stop genjutsu it just makes the thread dumb because everyone would say genjutsu gg

And for those saying genjutsu doesn't require chakra to work pls explainwhy two of the effective ways of stopping genjutsu involves chakra flow manipulation