Can Black Panther and Wolverine bullet time?

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deactivated-5d6bc0cd36084

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@lubub55: Where are you getting the part about Matt not being a bullet timer when there are scans of the narration very clearly mentioning that he has?

  1. "Feel the attack before it comes."
  2. "Radar-Sense, Spider-Man! That and my heightened senses allowed me to track the shot... Very closely."

@lubub55:

Whenever Matt deflects bullets off his club, narration usually states he moves before the shots are fired and predicts their path, timing it so that his clubs can intercept the bullet at the perfect moment.

There is more than one instance in which he moved after the gun was fired

Daredevil (1998) #27

In this instance his radar sense wasn't even working properly.

The Man Without fear #5

Again, you can clearly see he moved after the man fired the gun.

The first lot are aim dodging, the second ones I addressed. There is no indication he moved after the shots were fired, which means he probably didn't.

Though I don't think this is particularly relevant to the discussion.

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darthjhawk

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#52  Edited By darthjhawk  Moderator

I've always believed they could.Don't really see why they couldn't

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@lubub55:

The first lot are aim dodging

Fair enough

There is no indication he moved after the shots were fired, which means he probably didn't.

It's very obvious that he moved his hand after the shot was fired.

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brucerogers

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@all-father:

It's very obvious that he moved his hand after the shot was fired.

Except... There's nothing indicating that. Not a shred of evidence to support it.

@brucerogers: Oh, okay. If you want to we could discuss it in a PM or something. I don't think this is the right place for it.

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brucerogers

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@lubub55: Sure thing. Do PM me if you want to discuss those feats.

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@lubub55:

Except... There's nothing indicating that. Not a shred of evidence to support it.

The panels clearly show him moving after the gunman fired his shot. Not that really hard to tell.

Regardless, as you said this isn't relevant to the topic of the thread, shouldn't have started the argument. My bad.

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@jay_z94 said:
@outside_85 said:

I'd be more willing to agree that Black Panther could do it due to his superhuman levels of agility and strength. I'm less inclined to believe Logan can actually do it because there isn't really anything in his powerset that says he could do it, and the increased levels of strength that might boost his speed is negated by the very thing thats giving him it, the skeleton mostly composed of metal.

That said, whenever they can or can't depends on the writer/artist. Why Logan would actually need to be able to do it however is another matter.

By both Character Bios and on-panel statements, Wolverine has enhanced physical attributes. He also has superhuman physical attributes by feats.

Yes it's his healing factor that allows him to push his body a little further than a normal human can.

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jay_z94

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#59  Edited By jay_z94

@jay_z94 said:
@outside_85 said:

I'd be more willing to agree that Black Panther could do it due to his superhuman levels of agility and strength. I'm less inclined to believe Logan can actually do it because there isn't really anything in his powerset that says he could do it, and the increased levels of strength that might boost his speed is negated by the very thing thats giving him it, the skeleton mostly composed of metal.

That said, whenever they can or can't depends on the writer/artist. Why Logan would actually need to be able to do it however is another matter.

By both Character Bios and on-panel statements, Wolverine has enhanced physical attributes. He also has superhuman physical attributes by feats.

Yes it's his healing factor that allows him to push his body a little further than a normal human can.

While it has been said that his healing factor grants him enhanced physical abilities, it could also be attributed to his overall mutation. In "The Death of Wolverine" when he didn't have his HF, Reed Richards said that Logan still has his strength and speed:

But at the end of the day, Wolverine is superhuman.

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#60  Edited By KrleAvenger

@lubub55: Sorry for the late reply. You probably lost interest in this debate, but I said I'll post scans so I'll reply anyway.

Ah, okay then. My bad. Do you have a specific reference? Even if you can't provide a scan, an issue number for some feats? And do the characters he's said to be faster than have impressive speed feats under the same writer? Because that plays into what I said about scaling inconsistency. Writers rarely agree on a character's power level, so I don't think it would be fair to get the absolute best speed feats of Wolverine for example from all his comics and scale T'Challa off that because Logan said they're similar in speed, even if the writer of that comic portrayed him as more of a tank than a speedster.

You're asking for too much here. The writers who pit other characters against each other (for whatever reason) don't care about showing us more feats just so we could known how impressive they are. It's not like I was gonna bring Logan's best feats to the table, like reacting to beams of light or other stupid stuff. It does not change the fact that multiple writers introduced him as a guy who can blitz people like he's the Flash, move faster than eyesight, react in hundreds of a second, dodge gunfire from the most skilled marskmen of the Marvel Universe and so on.

Saying that the showing between two characters doesn't mean much just because that particular writer did not give that character a lot of impressive feats is like saying those bullet timing feats you posted for MCU T'Challa are meaningless because comics are different from movies and because he never operated anywhere close to that level in movies. In other words, 99% of fights between characters would be pointless. You don't need that particular writer to tell you how strong the character is in his eyes. Logan's powers were pretty consistent despite the fact he was written by a ton of writers, so that should be enough.

Add to the fact that T'Challa's speed has been complimented by Wolverine twice. Here's the first one, from Marvel Super Hero Contest of Champions #3. Logan points out that T'Challa has speed on his side, and was impressed that T'Challa easily dodged him.

No Caption Provided

Now I'm aware of the fact that Logan has gotten significantly better in most ways in later years of his publication/appearances, but so has T'Challa, like a lot. And again, Logan complimented his speed once more, in Black Panther Vol. 4 #8. Now, Logan did not say T'Challa had speed advantage here or anything like that. But it does not change the fact that he was ready to fight him head-on while T'Challa did not want to do so. Yet he still grabbed Logan despite the fact that he extracted his claws and threw him to the side.

No Caption Provided

Logan even said "Woah... fast!". There is also their fight from Wolverine Vol. 5 #8, where T'Challa got the best of Wolverine without much effort while avoiding most of his strikes. But like I said before, there was no speed being complimented during that fight. And Logan lost both his healing factor and some of his fighting skills so I'm not gonna post it. I also think it's worth mentioning that Captain America, someone who has legit bullet timing feats better than most street levelers in comics and was confirmed to be enhanced human multiple times, was pretty surprised by T'Challa's speed in Tales of Supsense #98 - "The Claws of the Panther!". And it wasn't just a meaningless statement. He said that as T'Challa dodged his attack (although it does not prove T'Challa is faster than Rogers).

No Caption Provided

Now to give you more legit showing. In Fantastic Four Annual Vol. 1 #5, T'Challa got the best of Karnak, an inhuman with the ability to see/detect weak spots and use them to his advantage perfectly. He is extremely skilled fighter and has confirmed superhuman stats (strength, reflexes...), and T'Challa dodged his attack and overpowered him due to his speed.

"Nothing... save one with the speed of bounding cheetah!" That is not the statement you would make if you don't necessarily have superior speed to your opponent, or at least have enough speed to either overwhelm him or dodge his attacks with ease without him being able to react to it. And in case this showing seems outdated to you, T'Challa stomped Karnak in Black Panther Vol. 4 #20 as well, dodging two of his attacks (both of which were intended to put him down) and proceed to one-shot him before he could react.

In case you feel skeptical, here is Karnak admitting that T'Challa had a solid edge in speed, in the same issue.

No Caption Provided

Now, you may ask yourself, why the hell am I bringing Karnak up? Well, he was confirmed to be enhanced human with superhuman reflexes, and even non superhumans (or peak humans if you will) preformed bullet timing feats. But for the sake of not using flawed scaling and wicked ABC logic, how about I show you Karnak preforming a casual, and pretty impressive bullet timing feat in Karnak #1.

Obviously his inhuman abilities and skill allowed him to preform this feat, same thing he always uses in combat to quickly incapacitate an opponent. Same thing he used against T'Challa which failed in a fight that ended up with Karnak getting one-shotted, in the same comic where he stated that T'Challa was faster than him afterwards, which is supported even further by their previous/first encounter.

I meant that the first one could potentially be argued as hitting the suit, but because we see the bullet split I think it's still more likely that it was deflected.

Based on properties of MCU Cap's shield, and even T'Challa's showing in Captain America: Civil War (2016), MCU vibranium redirects kinetic energy instead of absorbing it like it does in comics (not including MCU T'Challa's new, upgraded suit). Every time Cap blocks something with his shield, it ricochets at high speed and/or creates pretty loud noises. Take Thor's blow from The Avengers (2012) for example. It created extremely loud shockwaves that bent the trees (sorry, the gif skips that part and shows Thor right away) and pushed Thor backwards. That is probably the reason why the bullet looks deflected. The suit did it. Remember when T'Challa was hit by helicopter bullets while fighting Bucky? Similar thing happened.

You can see how bullets ricochet out of his suit at almost the exact same speed as the actually bullet that has been fired, given the fact that we can see sparks in on his shoulders yet we can't see the bullets even tho we know he was hit. Now the scan you brought up:

No Caption Provided

That's more like his suit deflecting it. Or possible aim-dodging. I honestly have no idea why you were under the assumption that that was a bullet timing feat, because it does not seem like one at all. There are feats that are leagues above this one and they still count as aim-dodging.

Where abouts is the bullet timing feat for 616 Black Panther? I haven't seen it, and I'm pretty certain he doesn't have any legit ones.

I was talking about the one posted on Post #20. That looks more like bullet timing feat to me because we see T'Challa on the first panel being face to face with the shooter, who has a clear bead on him. But after the bullet started moving, T'Challa was underneath. And that does not look like aim dodging to me because we see T'Challa's body underneath the trajectory of the bullet and being closer to the shooter than the actual bullet. If you don't consider that to be a bullet timing feat, I can't do much aside from agreeing to disagree.

But would you at least agree that MCU T'Challa has better reflexes? Because that's the main thing I'm trying to argue here.

I would put them on the same level of speed when it comes to reflexes.

I actually agree with you on it not being bullet timing, but my point was that somebody slower and less skilled than T'Challa could accomplish the same results in the movie, so even if you were to argue that T'Challa could only do it through telegraphing it would still be PIS for him to get tagged by the bullet since even in the movies worse fighters than him can block bullets.

Not as much of a PIS and more of a lower end showing. Either way, fair enough.

Honestly, I can't really make a comparison without seeing scans for the specific feats you're talking about.

I was talking about stuff like this.

Jashro went into it quite recently. Whenever Matt deflects bullets off his club, narration usually states he moves before the shots are fired and predicts their path, timing it so that his clubs can intercept the bullet at the perfect moment.

Here are two examples. Narration in the first and dialogue in the second tells us that Matt is able to deflect bullets because he knows where they're going to be fired and can position himself accordingly beforehand. There are ones without any narration, but ones like these give context that people actually reading Daredevil's comics will know so that the same thing doesn't have to be explained repeatedly. It's similar to when Bucky blocks bullets with his arm, but more precise.

I'll put my counter to this under a spoiler block. I'm not gonna argue that Daredevil is a bullet timer because he has nothing to do with this thread. I'm just gonna counter this part of your post for informative purposes (ok, so I guess I WILL argue he is one, but only based on stuff you posted here). Feel free to counter this if you want but I won't reply back. Nothing personal of course. Just don't want to derail the thread with unnecessary posts.

Your Spider-man scan did not say anything about him moving before the shooter shots him.

No Caption Provided

He just said he can track the shot, which gives him the precision necessary to preform those feats so casually. It does not say anything about him staying in a perfect position to deflect it before it starts traveling. This can actually be debunked by using an example from Daredevil's first series written by Stan Lee himself, Daredevil Vol. 1 #3.

No Caption Provided

Here, Matt explains how he reacts to bullets. He uses his radar sense and his other enhanced senses to find out when the shooter is gonna pull the trigger, waiting for the "click" sound. Then after he hears the "click" sound, he calculates the angle and the distance of the bullet and then deflects it. This is possibly what he was trying to tell Spider-man, how his radar helps him deflect bullets. To be perfectly blunt, that "staying in a perfect position before the bullet is being fired" is kinda made up, and there are several scans that contradict what you actually said, based on statements, explanation, different positions seen in various panels and overall execution. I'm not gonna post them because I told you I'm not gonna spend a lot of time arguing over this.

But the scan above is a bullet timing feat based on both narrator's and Matt's explanation and execution. Fact that he was calculating the angle of a bullet and the distance after he heard the click sound "meaning after the bullet started to travel" while at the same time clipping two separate pieces of his billy club into one to deflect it as seen on the next panel and also the fact that his body was in a completely different position (and that he deflected it perfectly, back at shooter's gun, which can't be done if you are in a perfect position before it is even shot), kinda makes this non debatable and objectively is a bullet timing feat. What Jashro was arguing over is that Matt relies on his senses to held him preform bullet timing feats. And he is kinda right.

But there are instances where Matt preformed bullet timing feats not only without that assistance, but while being handicapped. The reason why I brought this up is because you yourself posted that scan, with Bushwhacker. I assume it's there because Matt stated that he feels the attack before it comes. Unfortunately, your scan is taken extremely out of context. First of, Matt's other senses were not only a non factor, but were actually a handicap (so they were, but in a bad way).

He was in a sewer, and considering all the pipes inside that produce a lot of sound due to the water, as well as stench, it affected Matt's senses and overwhelmed them, making them a disadvantage. Image losing your best weapon. But Matt wasn't in even that position. He was in a position where his best weapon was used against him.

He stated he can't track anything by scent due to stench, which should have been a huge handicap once you take a look at Matt's ridiculous feats of scent. It was actually confirmed on the second panel, where it was so overwhelming, it affected his other senses and it was more painful than shattered ribs (and there are also the pipes). The third panel is the last one before the scan you posted. It shows Matt struggling to hear where his enemies are coming from because his ears were ringing due to the gunshots. On top of all that, he had to deal with the other two, so he did not know when Bushwhacker was gonna appear.

Pretty much all of his senses were not only useless but worked against him and he was in a pretty bad situation. There is no way he could rely on his radar or ability to calculate the distance or the angle of a bullet. Nor could he prepare since his senses worked against him and the fact that Bushwhacker does not have a trigger to pull when he fires bullets. The reason why Matt stated that he has to feel where the attack is coming from (not knowing it will be a bullet from Bushwhacker) is because of pure focus. Like, take a look at the scan you yourself posted. It tells us that he relied on pure focus to preform such a feat and no senses what so ever.

Even if we ignore the disadvantages Matt had to deal with here, plus the fact that Bushwhacker was extremely close to him before firing a bullet, the fact that Matt can deal with bullets through pure focus also shows ridiculous level of skill. Most people rely on raw speed/reflexes (excluding aim-dodging) but Matt relies on focus. And still, it shows raw speed and reflexes because no matter how skilled you are, a bullet is a bullet. It might make his showing a bit less impressive since it does not show a combination of perception and speed but reflexes and skill, the fact that he preformed this feat despite how handicapped he was kinda evens it up. This is the true bullet timing and I can't pinpoint exactly why you tried to use this as proof of Matt somehow staying in the right position for a bullet to be deflected. If anything, this is one of the most impressive bullet timing feats in comics preformed by street levelers.

==================================================================================================

But let's ignore all that and once again take a look at the scan you yourself posted. Panel by panel. The first one shows:

No Caption Provided

Matt removing his hands out of the water. Nothing more. Barely any movement while Bushwhacker is behind him. Second one shows:

No Caption Provided

Bushwhacker firing a bullet. We saw the position Matt was in prior to this. He couldn't be in a position to deflect that bullet. He did not move to the side about 180 degrees to face Bushwhacker, who is clearly behind him, even less move his arm under the right angle (not to mention hear the non-existing "click" sound and calculate the distance, he was weakened/handicapped on top of it). He was just standing there and Bushwhacker's bullet already moved outside the barrel/hand/finger. The third panel shows:

No Caption Provided

Matt preparing to turn backwards. He was either turning or was about to turn. He did this after the bullet was fired and it still did not reach him. Again, keep in mind, his senses were useless here. He relied on focus (and raw speed because it is necessary to react to bullets). Speaking of the bullet, according to the fourth panel...

No Caption Provided

It was still moving and it still didn't reach Matt. And the fifth and the sixth panel (which I posted as one) show Matt deflecting the bullet. Clearly after it has been fired. And not just deflect it, but deflect it back at the shooter at close proximity.

No Caption Provided

Again, even if we ignore the fact how handicapped Matt was during this instance, this would still be one of the more impressive bullet timing feats ever preformed by street levelers. Ironically enough, during this same issue (that being Daredevil Vol. 1 #335), Matt's senses were a bit weakened prior to falling into the sewer, and his radar was 100% useless. He also had trouble moving, and during that moment, he still dodged a bullet from Bushwhacker who attacked him from behind (clearly bullet-timing since Matt didn't know he was there until he started shooting, and was on his legs prior to it while he jumped to the side after the bullet started moving).

Again, I have more scans that contradict your claim. But I don't feel like posting them. This has gone way off-topic already.

I've read a lot of Punisher and I feel confident in saying he doesn't have any bullet timing feats, but I haven't read his more recent stuff so I could be wrong.

I've seen two. Not that it matters anyway. I don't think they are consistent anyway, and Punisher has nothing to do with this.

As far as I'm aware he's never failed to react to it. But my point is that reacting to Captain America's shield is too hard to quantify to use as a feat because of its inconsistency.

I think I already conceded on this part by stating that using it was kinda dumb. Not that the shield is inconsistent. Just that 616 T'Challa dodging it is not a feat I should use in this thread in particular, even tho I don't see MCU T'Challa dodging 616 Cap's shield.

I don't remember this, sorry.

Well, I can't find any gifs or videos that show it. The movie is still fresh.